Author Topic: prostitution  (Read 34214 times)

vajraD

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2012, 10:01:15 AM »
Personally ill split prostitution to 2 levels.

1) People whom are force to do prostitution (not given a choice) – is not sexual misconduct. Force can be they are sold to prostitution company, they cant find jobs because the have a sex change, to young for other jobs but needed money to take care of family. There may be other cases but this was what I have come across and herd.

2) Prostitution by choice – is sexual misconduct. These people have a choice of work but want easy money or just to satisfy their lust.

I may be wrong by book when I said the above but the above said make more sense to me.

Manjushri

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2012, 08:59:09 PM »
I do not consider prositution as sexual misconduct, because to me, it is the same as any action that we indulge ourselves in - what differs is that we base the result on how we deem each action from our preconceived ideas.

Personally, I agree with many things said here, especially by Wisdom Being. Prostitution can be considered as a job, just that in this case, the service/business is the selling of one's body. And the buyer/client, has the right to purchase this service. It is a consensual transaction, a financial one, therefore no harm done to both parties per se. Sexual misconduct can only come from the part of the client, where he/she goes to a prostitute knowing that it will hurt their respective partners - that is sexual misconduct and they can look for other people to fulfil their desires, not only prostitutes. Anyways, how would the prostitute know that the men/women have respective partners at home waiting for them - all they care about is providing the service that has been paid for, and collecting the cash. That is it.

So, if one drinks alot, and this results in sexual misconduct from the side of the drinker, will it then result in the bar owner's/bar-tender's fault for selling the alcohol in the first place, which led to the buyer/client who bought the alcohol that played a part in him/her sleeping with someone else? Yes the service is always there, but it doesnt mean that people should "purchase" it just because it is there. We are the judge,the decider of all our actions, so prositution is not a case of sexual misconduct.

Midakpa

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2012, 01:44:06 AM »
It all boils down to karma. It could be due to karma created in the past lives of the prostitute or it could the negative karma of the parents, especially the father that has created the effect on the daughter. Girls who are mistreated at home and scolded by their parents tend to leave home. If they do not have a good education and thus cannot find jobs, they might land up in bars, singing at hotels and become prostitutes. I read somewhere that one of the causes of girls becoming victims of men is when the father is a womanizer. The negative karma affects the daughters. So fathers should stop being womanizers and be kind to their daughters. We can't just blame the society, the environment, bad friends, etc. These are just the conditions that cause the karma to ripen.

So is prostitution sexual misconduct? It is difficult to say due to the many different types of cases and their causes. I see it as great suffering as a result of negative karma.

Big Uncle

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2012, 04:48:15 AM »
LOL!

This thread has generated tremendous amounts of replies from so many people.

I still stand on my ground that prostitution is a sexual misconduct because I have not heard of a single prostitute that is respected by others and who respects herself/himself. I will not talk of the politics of the trade here as there is so many possibilities. But I will talk about how it leads many people, both men and women to get addicted to a fantasy that serves no real purpose but to increase desire.

When desire is increased, it is not a good thing. The act itself is not wrong but it leads to other vice, crime and social problems. If you say that is alright, then you are are saying all that it leads to is alright. That doesn't mean all prostitutes are bad people but it is a trade that is negative and is a catalyst towards even more negative karma. Some countries resorted to legalize the trade but doesn't change the fundamental problem with prostitution:- it always accompanies crime in all countries.

Manjushri

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2012, 04:39:33 PM »
LOL!

This thread has generated tremendous amounts of replies from so many people.

I still stand on my ground that prostitution is a sexual misconduct because I have not heard of a single prostitute that is respected by others and who respects herself/himself. I will not talk of the politics of the trade here as there is so many possibilities. But I will talk about how it leads many people, both men and women to get addicted to a fantasy that serves no real purpose but to increase desire.

When desire is increased, it is not a good thing. The act itself is not wrong but it leads to other vice, crime and social problems. If you say that is alright, then you are are saying all that it leads to is alright. That doesn't mean all prostitutes are bad people but it is a trade that is negative and is a catalyst towards even more negative karma. Some countries resorted to legalize the trade but doesn't change the fundamental problem with prostitution:- it always accompanies crime in all countries.


Dear Big Uncle,

Yeah funny how topics that relate to our desires, and what we are accustomed with and know always end up being so popular huh. hehehe. Most of the time, I guess it's easier to speak with things that we know, and can relate with, and put a Buddhist perspective to it. More experential.

Anyways, just wanted to reply to your post. Because of the fact that you have not heard of a single prostitute that is respected by others doesn't mean that there are none, right? So I don't think it is fair to base your judgement on that alone.  What you said that "how it leads many people, both men and women to get addicted to a fantasy that serves no real purpose but to increase desire" - I agree, but everything in samsara that we do and only know of serves to increase desire - from our job, which increases our desire to earn more, to our house, our car, our material goods. We live our lives as fantasies, no? Without the knowledge of Dharma, anyways, I guess we do.

Also, I guess even if someone is a sex addict, it is a good thing that they can pay for releasing their desires, instead of raping others, no? So crime rate does not necessarily increase because of prostitution, I feel.

What you said about desire reminds me of Vajrayogini's pratice; how our Lady Goddess uses our deep desires and turns us towards the Dharma. Who knows, maybe Bodhisattvas may manifest as prostitutes, and like Vajrayogini, uses our desires and turns us to the Dharma.. Chogyam Trungpa, did everything we desire, and brought many to the Dharma. 

Just sharing my thoughts..

Jessie Fong

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2012, 08:31:13 AM »
A prostitute sells sexual favors in return for a token sum of money - that is selling services.

If someone goes into prostitution due to force by family members to pay off a huge debt, then how can she be guilty of sexual misconduct?

If a person becomes a prostitute on her own free will, she knowingly offers her services to her clients, irregardless whether he is married or not - she would not even bother to ask, maybe?  If she does not know, how could she be guilty of it?  But if she finds out that her client is a married man and yet still goes ahead with her service, then she is guilty.

Aurore

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2012, 04:21:04 PM »
Did a little research on this topic and found the following :

http://www.sexwork.com/Thailand/buddhism.html
The Influence Of Thai Buddhism on Prostitution
Traditional Acceptance / Encouragement vs. Modern Reform Views

While Buddhist attitudes prevail about women as inferior beings, their status is karmic, or fated, and not due to a personal failing or moral flaw. Temporary work in the sex industry may be seen as fate or karma, not a moral flaw in the girl herself, or it may be seen as work for her family that gains her karmic merit.

Comment : The above article and view is the first i've ever come across and I am referring to the point it is to gain her karmic merit.


Thanks for sharing this. I also came across this same article a few months back and what really caught my attention was this line:-
Buddhism, the national religion of Thailand, is a major reason that Thai women become prostitutes.

It's pretty sad how Buddhism has been misinterpreted and polluted this way. Real Buddhism teaches us that women are to be seen equal as men. The Hindus believes in it as well that it's bad karma to be born as a woman and woman are meant to serve men. I think it's total nonsense. This is probably made up by men.

It's wrong views, sexual misconduct and to add on more negative karma, I've also heard cases where prostitutes uses black magic to lure customers and keeps them coming back to them. So if anyone thinks it's a one off just for fun trip to Thailand, it may not be. Better think twice before engaging in your sexual desires.

ratanasutra

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2012, 08:30:31 PM »
This is a very long thread i ever seen because of desire..

I think prostitution is a sexual misconduct, simply because of its action which cause harm and hurt other. Prostitues sell sex and service, and definitely they not only service one person in one night, right? so the chance that one of the clients will have partner is high and she or he does it daily so the amount of people he or she has hurt are uncountable.. you just think about it.. There are 365 days in one year and how many clients she/he service in one day? So how it not be a sexual misconduct?

Its just a matter of how heavy of their negative karma they create daily...

 

sonamdhargey

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2012, 11:21:18 AM »
How do we define prostitution as sexual misconduct? It is hard to define as there are many factors and grey areas which cannot be pinpointed and cannot be generalized. So many factors that may lead a person to be a prostitute, mainly out of poverty, forced or willingly for easy money. In the end these prostitutes are humans too. Some have a choice to be one and some don't. I've heard that some prostitute actually raised funds to build a Dharma centre. Does that mean sexual misconduct as well?

Positive Change

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2012, 11:27:16 AM »
LOL!

This thread has generated tremendous amounts of replies from so many people.

I still stand on my ground that prostitution is a sexual misconduct because I have not heard of a single prostitute that is respected by others and who respects herself/himself. I will not talk of the politics of the trade here as there is so many possibilities. But I will talk about how it leads many people, both men and women to get addicted to a fantasy that serves no real purpose but to increase desire.

When desire is increased, it is not a good thing. The act itself is not wrong but it leads to other vice, crime and social problems. If you say that is alright, then you are are saying all that it leads to is alright. That doesn't mean all prostitutes are bad people but it is a trade that is negative and is a catalyst towards even more negative karma. Some countries resorted to legalize the trade but doesn't change the fundamental problem with prostitution:- it always accompanies crime in all countries.

Big Uncle,

I agree with you in general but I disagree with the point that there are no so called prostitutes who are respected by others or no so called prostitutes that respects themselves. In countries where prostitution is legal and even somewhat of an "institution" it is seen as a legit earning and i dare say is a respected trade. Some people even see it as, I sleep around anyways so why not get paid for it? And on the other end of the scale, there are people who are genuinely looking for sexual company and are willing to pay for the "perfect" company... wrong? Perhaps... but it certainly is "better" than pushing it under the carpet and thinking it does not exist. We cannot change societies misconceptions overnight but at least we can make it less damaging. Is this not Buddhist?

I do believe it all has to do with the "trade" and how it is perceived. Take for example an abattoir, people who run it believes it is a legit business, that they are doing society a favour in providing a service which most would cringe at and people in general "accept" it as something necessary. Warped or not is not in question but is all perception.

Sure I can stay on my high horse and say everyone beneath me is wrong but the fact of the matter is, I think I am the only one on the horse or that a horse is high when I have not sen an elephant! :P

My point is, for us lay people who are not living a monks' or nuns' life, are we or were we sexually active in the past? Did we create negative karma? Is it any different from the life of a prostitute? Did we not do it for a free meal, some gifts, the pleasure or merely the company? We all wanted something and we all took something out of it. So how different is that from a prostitute really?

brian

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2012, 01:42:34 PM »
I think this is interesting topic, as we all know most countries in Europe and some Asian countries actually legalized prostitution. So that's mundane world, whatabout in spirituality vise. I feel its never a positive action to do either buying it or selling it. Will your partner be happy with what u did when you told him/her that you went to see a prostitute for sex? If u asked me whether a prostitute would be happy to be in this job I would say not likely. Their intention is for the quick money to please their family or oneself or for survival.

Negative actions such as prostitutions, stealings, lying etc does give people unhappy feelings. So why would negative actions won't count as breaking a vow in this case Sexual Misconduct. I would say it is a sexual misconduct whether you have a partner or not.

Aurore

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2012, 02:14:22 PM »
To add on to my previous reply how prostitution are being conducted in Thailand. When I was in Bangkok 2 years back, I drove pass many young teenage girls by the street prostituting themselves. I was told that there are more and more under age college girls now prostituting themselves so that they could buy the latest phones, clothes, shoes, handbags and look pretty. This was since the new president took over and has modernized the country. It's not even to support themselves or their family. I would consider that as sexual misconduct. Anything which is to gain benefits for oneself while increasing someone else's attachments is never a good thing.

rossoneri

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2012, 06:39:28 AM »
Let's do not forget prostitution is the oldest profession the the world, and i agreed that it will be better if countries would legalized prostitution. I believed it'll help to minimized force prostitution, child prostitution and would encourage them to have proper body check if there's a specific health care center is designed specially for them. So why not legalized and acknowledge the existence of these society by taking care of them? It'll be here whether we like it or not? I do not agree to this industry but i hope people in general should help or understand these people who whereby have a karma to become a prostitute. Nobody wants to be a prostitute i believed.

Being a prostitute is not a behavior of sexual misconduct but it is if he or she performing this negative action behind their love ones or family. In another words if a married man pay a visit to a prostitute carrying a sense of desire of sex and perform it behind their love ones it is considered he broke the vow not only sexual misconduct but lying as well. 

vajratruth

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2012, 06:21:27 PM »
We have a tendency to label and judge people broadly based on very general perceptions. For e.g. prostitution in general carries a negative connotation while a doctor is generally seen as a noble profession. In practice it is not that clear cut but it does reflect how our shallow minds compartmentalize everything. A criminal is bad, a policeman is good. A monk is virtuous, a Lama is more virtuous than a simple monk.

A person who has to prostitute himself or herself out of dire need to provide for others is far nobler than a doctor who neglects his Socratic oath and refuses to provide medical care for those who cannot afford his fees.

The prostitute is one half of the equation. The other half of the equation is the client. Why just focus on the provider of the service?

DS Star

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2012, 11:28:35 AM »
Prostitution in the conventional sense denotes selling sex. Does not matter male or female or whatever configuration. Putting aside pimps, forced prostitution etc and considering prostitution only, if the sex hurts another, whether the person knows it or not, it is consider sexual misconduct. Hence, if a prostitute's client is married or have a commitment to a girlfriend then the act is SM.
Prostitution itself is not SM but leads to very high chance of SM. Technically, if a prostitute somehow only have client who are not committed to another, then prostitution is not SM.
Of course for SM to be complete we need the 4 factors to be present including penetration and rejoicing. Ironically, if a prostitute is forced into the trade and never rejoice the act, then it is not SM.

I agreed mostly of your comment here in exception to the last statement regarding the 4 factors i.e. "if a prostitute is forced into the trade and never rejoice the act, then it is not SM (sexual misconduct)."

This is totally ridiculous!

You are only viewing on the prostitute point of view, if she/he being forced, it is not Sexual Misconduct on her/his side but on the client side, I can safely say, the client definitely 'rejoice' in the 'trade' and since the prostitute is unwilling, IT IS DEFINITELY SEXUAL MISCONDUCT ON the CLIENT side!

If the prostitutes are being forced (or cheated into, sold into, etc), we definitely cannot say they have committed the Sexual Misconduct because they are unwilling, definitely no rejoice. It is a violation of human right, a crime by the party/ person who forced them. They are suffering from being tortured into engaging in sexual act that they definitely not consented to.

If the client knowingly participate as to engage them by paying the pimp or the forcing party, then the client is also participating in the CRIME of human trade. This is more serious karma then Sexual Misconduct, mind you!