dorjeshugden.com
General Buddhism => General Buddhism => Topic started by: hope rainbow on November 16, 2011, 12:02:11 PM
-
Is prostitution sexual misconduct?
What is the Buddhist stand on the topic?
-
Based on what I understand one of the vows is no sexual misconduct. The definition of sexual misconduct generally means sex which causes harm or hurt to others. Such examples would be adultery, rape, etc. In view of this understanding (which may be too simplistic), prostitution would not be sexual misconduct per se, right?
One who is a prostitute is selling sex. This would therefore mean that it is consenting or a "willing service".
There is of course another view whereby one is forced to sell one's body for sex because they have been sold to a "prostitute manager". They may have been sold because their families could not survive, which is some stories I have heard of in Thailand. This case would mean it is against will, thus there is hurt and harm. Would this mean sexual misconduct? Or negative karma?
-
Based on what I understand one of the vows is no sexual misconduct. The definition of sexual misconduct generally means sex which causes harm or hurt to others. Such examples would be adultery, rape, etc. In view of this understanding (which may be too simplistic), prostitution would not be sexual misconduct per se, right?
Yet a prostitute may have a sexual intercourse with someone else's partner, so it would then be sexual misconduct. Would it mean that prostitution be ok then for as long as it does not involve doing it with someone else's partner?
-
If a person has sex with a prostitute and his/her partner does not mind, is it still sexual misconduct??
-
Did a little research on this topic and found the following :
http://www.sexwork.com/Thailand/buddhism.html (http://www.sexwork.com/Thailand/buddhism.html)
The Influence Of Thai Buddhism on Prostitution
Traditional Acceptance / Encouragement vs. Modern Reform Views
While Buddhist attitudes prevail about women as inferior beings, their status is karmic, or fated, and not due to a personal failing or moral flaw. Temporary work in the sex industry may be seen as fate or karma, not a moral flaw in the girl herself, or it may be seen as work for her family that gains her karmic merit.
Comment : The above article and view is the first i've ever come across and I am referring to the point it is to gain her karmic merit.
http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/precepts.html (http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/precepts.html)
The Five Mindfulness Trainings - according to Thich Nath Hanh
-Third Training-
Aware of the suffering caused by sexual misconduct, I am committed to cultivate responsibility and learn ways to protect the safety and integrity of individuals, couples, families, and society. I am determined not to engage in sexual relations without love and a long-term commitment. To preserve the happiness of myself and others, I am determined to respect my commitments and the commitments of others. I will do everything in my power to protect children from sexual abuse and to prevent couples and families from being broken by sexual misconduct.
Comment : It's abit long but do read it. I found the teaching here very clear on what the precept entails
-
Thank you very much DS friend for taking the time to research on the subject.
I have read the two links.
The second link is very clear to me, and I do find the explanation of sexual misconduct limpid.
(as copied in your post)
The first link I found a bit long and turning around the issue.
I read it twice trying to find the thread and came to the conclusion that the only reason it is turning in circle is because a direct answer is expected to the question: "is prostitution a sexual misconduct or not?" and as far as Buddhism is concerned, the topic is always placed in a larger context of sexual activities, desire or attachment (and enlightenment).
So the answer seems to be YES, it is sexual misconduct but we must contemplate on why, within a larger understanding of the Buddhist teachings, for this is not about going prostitutes-bashing as this would also be working against Buddhist precepts.
Then I found this sentence in the thread:
"Buddhism is often criticized as a religion that, being mainly concerned with personal salvation, lacks a social ethics."
I think that is a very interesting topic. For indeed, a governement or even perhaps another religion would have a definite answer to that "prostitution question" and solve a typical question of social ethic that prostitution raises.
Buddhism gives us teachings on how things work and on how acts have consequences without moral judgment such as "this is good" or "this is bad", but instead "this leads to that".
-
Dear all,
It appears that the assumption so far is - prostitutes are female adults .
1)What happen if men were the prostitutes and their customers are men and women. Would this be sexual misconduct?
2) under-aged people working as prostitutes. Who then are guilty of sexual misconduct - the child prostitutes , the pimps or the parents?
-
my view:
It is all depends on the MOTIVATION of the prostitutes. It does not matter if the prostitutes are male or female and who their customers are.
If the motivation of being a prostitute is to earn quick bucks, while this person has a choice of other professions - this is sexual misconduct
If the motivation is pure - e.g. this is the only way he or she knows how to earn a living; if this person had been forced into being one; if he or she prostituting to help put family members thru school - them the act of prostitution is just a way to make money.
Just my 2-cents worth
-
Let's take a look at what The Eightfold Path has to say :
Source : http://buddhism.about.com/od/theeightfoldpath/a/eightfoldpath.htm (http://buddhism.about.com/od/theeightfoldpath/a/eightfoldpath.htm)
The Fourth Noble Truth Is the Eightfold Path
The Eightfold Path is the means by which enlightenment may be realized. The historical Buddha first explained the Eightfold Path in his first sermon after his enlightenment, preserved in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.
Right View
Right Intention
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Concentration
The Path is divided into three main sections: wisdom, ethical conduct and mental discipline.
Wisdom: Right View and Right Intention are the wisdom path. Right View is not about believing in doctrine, but in perceiving the true nature of ourselves and the world around us. Right Intention refers to the energy and commitment one needs to be fully engaged in Buddhist practice.
Ethical Conduct: Right Speech, Right Action and Right Livelihood are the ethical conduct path. This calls us to take care in our speech, our actions, and our daily lives to do no harm to others and to cultivate wholesomeness in ourselves. This part of the path ties into the Precepts.
Mental Discipline: Through Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration we develop the mental discipline to cut through delusion. Many schools of Buddhism encourage seekers to meditate to achieve clarity and focus of mind.
In this case, prostitution irregardless of female, male, or child and for whatever reasons even though it's for a "good" cause such as paying thru college or helping out in a poor family will violate the "Ethical Conduct". Please correct me if i am wrong.
Question : Is prostitution a Livelihood which is wholesome?
It may bring in money for ones own family, but is it a wholesome activity for the people involved. Just as what hope rainbow pointed out,..where will it lead us.
Ethical conduct includes speech and action also. It'd be quite impossible to keep right speech and right action for such a livelihood.
I have no right to judge especially the intentions of others and I do not mean any disrespect to anyone. Who's motivation is pure? - "let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!"
May conditions arise that we will always be able to take refuge, observe the precepts and uphold the 8 fold path.
-
Is prostitution sexual misconduct?
What is the Buddhist stand on the topic?
Prostitution arises because of the demand (desire) for sexual pleasures. When there is demand there is supply. Why is there desire?
Samsara can be classified into three realms of existence – Form Realm, Formless Realm and Desire Realm. Humans are beings of the Desire realm. Desire is a delusion that is innate in humans. From desire, humans develop attachment. And attachment is one of the root causes of samsara i.e. ignorance, attachment and anger.
Prostitution is a means the humans use to satisfy their unquenchable desires.
Even if someone uses prostitution as a livelihood for a good cause like earning to keep a family, it is still a sexual misconduct because it is causing harm to others and oneself. By providing sex, the prostitute is causing some of the following major effects:
1) The spread of sexually transmitted diseases like AIDS which is fatal
2) Cause the breakdown of family
3) Encourage the development of desire leading to attachment – a root cause of suffering in samsara
4) Prostitution will bring harm to human bodies of the parties involved in the sexual acts. Human body is a precious vehicle that can be used to accomplish Enlightenment. Prostitution abuses the preciousness of the human body
5) Against the normally accepted social etiquette
6) Breaking the law of a country
According to the Eightfold Path as clearly explained by DS Friend above, prostitution is not a Right Livelihood. Furthermore it is not a Right Action. Prostitution is a form of sexual misconduct. All parties involved in the act of prostitution are guilty of committing a negative action.
In samsara, no matter how pure the intention of the prostitutes (sentient beings) in providing their sexual services, they are still creating the causes of suffering. If prostitution is done with bodhichitta intention, it will create both the positive and negative effects.
-
I think in Buddhism, prostitution is not sexual misconduct because the definition of sexual misconduct means performing the act of intercourse without the consent of the partner and or hurting someone as a result of the act.
Is prostitution sexual misconduct?
What is the Buddhist stand on the topic?
-
I think prostitution itself is not sexual misconduct. It is an occupation and the are consent between the two parties to be involved in the business deal.
However, if the prostitute has diseases which is transmittal, and still engages in the business without telling the client, then I think that constitute sexual misconduct. This is because she knows that she is not well and still accepts the business deal. Then she is causing serious harm and hurt to the other party. In that sense, Buddhism applies here too.
-
If a person has sex with a prostitute and his/her partner does not mind, is it still sexual misconduct??
Yes, I think this constitutes sexual misconduct! This is morally wrong and how can it NOT be a misconduct? In Taiwan, one who is caught having sex with person other than one's legal partner, will be charged and if found guilty, he or she could be sentenced to jail term.
Of course the above mentioned in from a secular point of view, from religious point of view, sex is one form of desire of which we should not be attached to.
-
I think a lot of the discussions here are based upon the concept of monogamy. What happen if we are in a society of polygamy? Where, for example, a female can have more than one husband? Also, does Buddhism specifically discuss about monogamy and/or polygamy?
-
Prostitution in the conventional sense denotes selling sex. Does not matter male or female or whatever configuration. Putting aside pimps, forced prostitution etc and considering prostitution only, if the sex hurts another, whether the person knows it or not, it is consider sexual misconduct. Hence, if a prostitute's client is married or have a commitment to a girlfriend then the act is SM.
Prostitution itself is not SM but leads to very high chance of SM. Technically, if a prostitute somehow only have client who are not committed to another, then prostitution is not SM.
Of course for SM to be complete we need the 4 factors to be present including penetration and rejoicing. Ironically, if a prostitute is forced into the trade and never rejoice the act, then it is not SM.
-
prostitution is not sexual misconduct but it goes against right livelihood in the 8 noble paths, where a lay person is not recommended to deal with businesses that involve killing, trading of flesh (which also means prostitution), drugs, poison, liquor etc.
there are willing prostitutes out there who see it as selling a service that they can provide. It takes a lot of determination to be one, especially servicing clients that are not of one's sexual preference. And also the risk of abuse, sexual diseases and rape. Personally i dont like that lifestyle...what if one day i have to stoop to that level? it is going to be a huge blow to the self, but i respect them in a way because they can put up with it.
-
In countries like the Netherlands, prostitution is legal. The prostitutes have health checks, they pay their taxes. It's a profession like any other, fulfilling a need. Why is prostitution looked down on when it is the same as a night club, where people meet up and have sex with strangers all the time - the only difference is that one is paid and the other isn't. Although sometimes it is paid in kind - like if a guy takes the girl out on the town, to a good restaurant etc and he expects sex in return.
i don't think prostitution is sexual misconduct if it is consensual.
There are so many little niggly things - eg is oral sex considered sexual misconduct?? I remember the Dalai Lama once said that sex should be for procreation only, therefore oral sex and non-procreational sex is sexual misconduct?
Geez. I guess sex (paid or unpaid) IS of course an attachment but since we are not all bodhisattvas yet, we will indulge - but let's just keep to the general moral disciplines of being faithful to our partners and respecting them.
-
I am inclined towards what yontenjamyang said re prostitution is not SM if it is consensual.
However, there is still the problem of wrong livelihood.This means the prostitute creates opportunity for married men etc to commit ' sins' against their wives or partners and also as promoter of attachment to sensual gratification. It becomes a vicious cycle when the paying customers also encourage the flourishing of prostitution by creating the demand.
I also like the rationale about prostitution having a high chance of turning into an act of SM.This has its parallel in the injunction against getting angry. When we become angry , there is high chance we lose control and engage in negative actions although those with high cultivation can employ anger and transform its energy into benefitting others.
For the above reasons, we would have to agree that as Buddhists we cannot condone prostitution even in its most benign form as the associated risks of causing suffering to oneself , family , spouse etc are too overwhelming to justify whatever little benefit it has mentioned here such as fulfilling a need, its a service , etc.
-
I am inclined towards what yontenjamyang said re prostitution is not SM if it is consensual.
However, there is still the problem of wrong livelihood.This means the prostitute creates opportunity for married men etc to commit ' sins' against their wives or partners and also as promoter of attachment to sensual gratification. It becomes a vicious cycle when the paying customers also encourage the flourishing of prostitution by creating the demand.
I also like the rationale about prostitution having a high chance of turning into an act of SM.This has its parallel in the injunction against getting angry. When we become angry , there is high chance we lose control and engage in negative actions although those with high cultivation can employ anger and transform its energy into benefitting others.
For the above reasons, we would have to agree that as Buddhists we cannot condone prostitution even in its most benign form as the associated risks of causing suffering to oneself , family , spouse etc are too overwhelming to justify whatever little benefit it has mentioned here such as fulfilling a need, its a service , etc.
Married men will commit adultery with anyone if they wanted to in the first place. It doesn't mean that the prostitutes tempt the men to adultery. The responsibility is FULLY at the married man.
I agree that prostitution can be seen as wrong livelihood. So is gambling, butchers etc. but why are casinos and butchers allowed? Casinos say that they are licensed. So can prostitution. I believe that if prostitution was legalised, there would be better control over this industry as to the health of all involved, the ladies (or gentlemen) would be protected from violence, their clients protected from being robbed etc. And the government would also receive taxes! However, because of the moral stigma on prostitution, not many countries legalise it so it is an underground movement which becomes linked to other underground movements of drugs and anything illegal.
Prostitution is a fact of life and always will be around. If anyone thinks that legalising prostitution will be the downfall of society, look at the Netherlands. Prostitution is legal there but it's not like everyone goes out and visits one on a sunday afternoon.
I think it's up to the education of people in general regarding the sanctity of a relationship - that if you are in a relationship, you don't go and have sex with someone else, whether paid or unpaid! Personally i feel that sex is overrated. It's like in the Middle East, where they cover their women up. My friend said he was working there for 6 months and he really didn't see any women.. and when he glimpsed a woman's ankle, he got 'excited'. Compare that to the nudist beaches you have in Greece. People are walking around starkers and you know what, people don't really give a toss. In Scandinavia where people are more liberal about sex, rape is at a very low rate. The more uptight about sex a society is, the more rape crimes exist. I'd rather a desperate guy go to a prostitute than rape someone or have incest with a minor. Of course it would be better if he can control himself etc etc but obviously that doesn't work.
Personally i think that sexual misconduct is about not being faithful to your partner. So being a prostitute is not sexual misconduct but if the person visiting the prostitute is married, then he/she is the one guilty of sexual misconduct.
Ok, i'm getting off my soap box now.
-
Married men will commit adultery with anyone if they wanted to in the first place. It doesn't mean that the prostitutes tempt the men to adultery. The responsibility is FULLY at the married man.
I agree that prostitution can be seen as wrong livelihood. So is gambling, butchers etc. but why are casinos and butchers allowed? Casinos say that they are licensed. So can prostitution. I believe that if prostitution was legalised, there would be better control over this industry as to the health of all involved, the ladies (or gentlemen) would be protected from violence, their clients protected from being robbed etc. And the government would also receive taxes! However, because of the moral stigma on prostitution, not many countries legalise it so it is an underground movement which becomes linked to other underground movements of drugs and anything illegal.
Prostitution is a fact of life and always will be around. If anyone thinks that legalising prostitution will be the downfall of society, look at the Netherlands. Prostitution is legal there but it's not like everyone goes out and visits one on a sunday afternoon.
I think it's up to the education of people in general regarding the sanctity of a relationship - that if you are in a relationship, you don't go and have sex with someone else, whether paid or unpaid! Personally i feel that sex is overrated. It's like in the Middle East, where they cover their women up. My friend said he was working there for 6 months and he really didn't see any women.. and when he glimpsed a woman's ankle, he got 'excited'. Compare that to the nudist beaches you have in Greece. People are walking around starkers and you know what, people don't really give a toss. In Scandinavia where people are more liberal about sex, rape is at a very low rate. The more uptight about sex a society is, the more rape crimes exist. I'd rather a desperate guy go to a prostitute than rape someone or have incest with a minor. Of course it would be better if he can control himself etc etc but obviously that doesn't work.
Personally i think that sexual misconduct is about not being faithful to your partner. So being a prostitute is not sexual misconduct but if the person visiting the prostitute is married, then he/she is the one guilty of sexual misconduct.
Ok, i'm getting off my soap box now.
Actually, a relationship between 2 persons can include sex with others if both partners allow (open relationship). I know couples who hire prostitutes to spice things up.
And yes, you're right about the people visiting the prostitutes breaking their marriage commitment, and not the prostitutes themselves. Married people can even cheat on each other, with or without prostitutes. So to say that as a basis for prostitutes being wrong livelihood isn't exactly a sound argument.
also, we tend to forget that there are willing and intelligent prostitutes/escorts out there who actually do it out of choice and who are educated and who enjoy what they are doing, as the stereotype of those tend to be exploited women. What about them?
-
that's an interesting point i hadn't thought of. Is it sexual misconduct if one's partner gives permission, i.e. open relationships? in that case, there isn't hurt to the other party.
Also the professional ladies, as you say, Ensapa, who may just treat it as a job. i've heard of ladies who are wannabe models who get paid a lot of money to be prostitutes. i guess for some people, it is as distasteful as cleaning toilets, but they get paid a lot more. Instead of being exploited, these women may even exploit men, i guess.
-
that's an interesting point i hadn't thought of. Is it sexual misconduct if one's partner gives permission, i.e. open relationships? in that case, there isn't hurt to the other party.
Also the professional ladies, as you say, Ensapa, who may just treat it as a job. i've heard of ladies who are wannabe models who get paid a lot of money to be prostitutes. i guess for some people, it is as distasteful as cleaning toilets, but they get paid a lot more. Instead of being exploited, these women may even exploit men, i guess.
yup. open relationships do exist and it is to me, the pinnacle of love where you can separate between lust and love at the ultimate level. I have seen it work. Because the love by these people have already crossed the boundaries of physical needs and they love their partner enough to allow their partners to satisfy themselves with others.
Even now there are several classes of prostitutes, with the more exclusive ones called escorts, where they sell their company and/or body to their clients. Then you have the cheap, sterotypical types. So the former i dont really see it as wrong livelihood as they are just selling a service, but selling one's body (or someone else's) goes against the 8 noble paths.
-
Well... I read the above with interest and concern.
I have been in open relationships and not.
In both I have committed adultery. In one case it was "allowed", in the other "it was not".
Looking at this activities with a distance, I just feel the same thought: what was this all for? and I get bored just even thinking about it.
Sometimes one needs to touch something to deflate it like a balloon that look big colorful and attractive but that was just full of air.
-
Dear Hope,
I guess the above is more for hypothetical discussion. I for one am not going to be a prostitute nor visit one, hence it doesn't apply. As for open relationships, i also have been there, done that, got the t-shirts. Sex is just an attachment - like to good food, music, holidays etc. Everything is delusion - what we hanker for which does not benefit others is essentially the balloon you're talking about. Sex is no different. My issue is that people place so much condemnation and judgment on sex - who you're doing it with, how you're doing it, where you're doing it, how often etc etc etc when it's JUST a body function like eating and defecating. What is the BIG deal?? (rhetorical question - not directed at you, Hope dear) :)
-
I personally think that prostitution is sexual misconduct. Sex itself is basically an expression of lust and using lust as a means of living just invites more problems. Why? The inherent nature of the act is lustful and like alcohol or gambling, one is intoxicated by it and the intoxicant don't bring harm directly, it is the side effects and so forth that brings harm.
Hence, prostitution open more doors to other social and moral issues. All prostitutes know that their clients would usually have a partner and they just want to have some fun. So they knowingly commit sexual misconduct, which makes it even worse. Unless prostitutes are forced into it, they are free to pursue other more wholesome means of living.
On the other hand, open relationships are a different issue altogether. It will end up with breakups and short relationships. There are exceptions to the rule but that is few and far in between. If all you are interested is relationships, sex and so forth, well, expect a rebirth in the 3 lower realms (most likely as an animal). I am sorry but i think that's where most prostitutes will go for all the 'pleasures' they give.
-
Well... I read the above with interest and concern.
I have been in open relationships and not.
In both I have committed adultery. In one case it was "allowed", in the other "it was not".
Looking at this activities with a distance, I just feel the same thought: what was this all for? and I get bored just even thinking about it.
Sometimes one needs to touch something to deflate it like a balloon that look big colorful and attractive but that was just full of air.
I guess each to their own. Some people just have a high sex drive and one partner is not enough, and that they are lucky enough to find a partner who is willing to allow. However instances like these are super rare.
Most people in general just are not prepared or ready for an open relationship, or when they actually engage in such a relationship they realize that they are not cut out for it. Sometimes what we think we can handle and what we actually can handle are different.
I personally think that prostitution is sexual misconduct. Sex itself is basically an expression of lust and using lust as a means of living just invites more problems. Why? The inherent nature of the act is lustful and like alcohol or gambling, one is intoxicated by it and the intoxicant don't bring harm directly, it is the side effects and so forth that brings harm.
Hence, prostitution open more doors to other social and moral issues. All prostitutes know that their clients would usually have a partner and they just want to have some fun. So they knowingly commit sexual misconduct, which makes it even worse. Unless prostitutes are forced into it, they are free to pursue other more wholesome means of living.
On the other hand, open relationships are a different issue altogether. It will end up with breakups and short relationships. There are exceptions to the rule but that is few and far in between. If all you are interested is relationships, sex and so forth, well, expect a rebirth in the 3 lower realms (most likely as an animal). I am sorry but i think that's where most prostitutes will go for all the 'pleasures' they give.
Well what about bachelors who engage in prostitution? I still think that it is the married men themselves who are to blame.
-
Dear Hope,
I guess the above is more for hypothetical discussion.
I for one am not going to be a prostitute nor visit one, hence it doesn't apply.
As for open relationships, i also have been there, done that, got the t-shirts.
Sex is just an attachment - like to good food, music, holidays etc.
Everything is delusion - what we hanker for which does not benefit others is essentially the balloon you're talking about.
Sex is no different.
My issue is that people place so much condemnation and judgment on sex - who you're doing it with, how you're doing it, where you're doing it, how often etc etc etc when it's JUST a body function like eating and defecating.
What is the BIG deal?? (rhetorical question - not directed at you, Hope dear) :)
Dear WB,
Certainly my post was not judgmental. Simply an expression of my experience.
Sex and sexual activities is not something I look at as being "good" or "evil", but as an activity that has causes and that has consequences.
And certainly not an activity similar to defecating (I admit similarities with eating though). One is an attachment, the other (defecating) is a body function and much less an attachment than sex is.
What are the causes for sexual activity and what are consequences?
Consequences can be that we are hurting someone else or/and that we are hurting ourselves.
(it's not always the case, but there is a possibility for it that one needs to look at realistically)
So I disagree with some people on this forum that argue that if we do not hurt somebody it's ok, because it is over-looking the aspect of sexual activities reinforcing our attachment to sex. When it is done in ways to look at others as objects of sexual desire only, it transforms our world and we see others as potential sexual partners or not, and I am talking of experience.
When one reduces his attachment to sexual activity, the world slowly looses sexually attractive people. I have experienced this myself. It does so to a point where one wonders where all the sexually attractive people have disappeared???
They have not disappeared, it is our projections that have disappeared.
I think we should be wise when we speak of sex, and not speak with a mind of attachment, nor be fooled by such mind. And I say this without judgment on it.
Prostitutes may have a social role to play on some societies, and there are positive aspects to it indeed, I think many posts above have expressed that. But let's note over-rule the Buddhas' teachings with our "views" and let's take this views as they are, not truths, but "views."
-
Dear WB,
Certainly my post was not judgmental. Simply an expression of my experience.
Sex and sexual activities is not something I look at as being "good" or "evil", but as an activity that has causes and that has consequences.
And certainly not an activity similar to defecating (I admit similarities with eating though). One is an attachment, the other (defecating) is a body function and much less an attachment than sex is.
What are the causes for sexual activity and what are consequences?
Consequences can be that we are hurting someone else or/and that we are hurting ourselves.
(it's not always the case, but there is a possibility for it that one needs to look at realistically)
So I disagree with some people on this forum that argue that if we do not hurt somebody it's ok, because it is over-looking the aspect of sexual activities reinforcing our attachment to sex. When it is done in ways to look at others as objects of sexual desire only, it transforms our world and we see others as potential sexual partners or not, and I am talking of experience.
When one reduces his attachment to sexual activity, the world slowly looses sexually attractive people. I have experienced this myself. It does so to a point where one wonders where all the sexually attractive people have disappeared???
They have not disappeared, it is our projections that have disappeared.
I think we should be wise when we speak of sex, and not speak with a mind of attachment, nor be fooled by such mind. And I say this without judgment on it.
Prostitutes may have a social role to play on some societies, and there are positive aspects to it indeed, I think many posts above have expressed that. But let's note over-rule the Buddhas' teachings with our "views" and let's take this views as they are, not truths, but "views."
sex for my body is actually a bodily function/need as well as an emotional one. There are several periods in a year where i feel the need for a partner and at the same time everyone appears to be a potential partner. At the same time I would also have the need to engage in sexual activity with another person even after self pleasure. It is highly annoying I cannot do much except bear with it and keep distracting myself with work and friends until the period ends. It is also on these periods where I need to exercise willpower to control myself from seeking one night stands. It is not within control as in to override it in my mind, but i have to keep distracting myself.
If i have a partner i am certain i can fulfill such needs with my partner but due to my past karma i dont really hope to get a partner as it can be quite tedious and unnecessary.
I dont think i will have such needs once I get a partner, because it's just a need and it will stop once it is fulfilled.
-
There are code of conduct in any situation that we live in. There are religious rules, civil rules and laws that regulate our conduct, some are restrictive and some are permissive.
Prostitution is but only one of the ways of making a living in samsara that creates a lot of debates to whether it is right or wrong. What about the other methods of making a living?
By civil rules and laws, prostitution is illegal in many parts of the world, by moral conduct it is unthinkable and by religious rules it is condemned.
My point is if one falls into making a living which is against all rules, in the knowledge and practice of Buddhism, we can with the help of guidance by a Buddhist Spiritual Guide make amends and rectify our negative karma to elevate us from such a sad situation. That to me is the most important essence of living a virtuous life.
-
I pity those people as they might not have chosen the job voluntarily. What about people sold to prostitution? What about people forced to be a prostitute to help the family? What if that's the only job to financially support themselves?
In then end, it's our karma to be in that place. Negative habituations that led such a strong negative imprint that carried on until the day they can meet Dharma. Everyday I watch and read the news, I keep asking myself what did these people do that made them suffer like that. I feel sad and my heart aches when I see these people. I try to remind myself that I will try very hard not to judge nor look down on these people but try to help them if I can.
-
Personally ill split prostitution to 2 levels.
1) People whom are force to do prostitution (not given a choice) – is not sexual misconduct. Force can be they are sold to prostitution company, they cant find jobs because the have a sex change, to young for other jobs but needed money to take care of family. There may be other cases but this was what I have come across and herd.
2) Prostitution by choice – is sexual misconduct. These people have a choice of work but want easy money or just to satisfy their lust.
I may be wrong by book when I said the above but the above said make more sense to me.
-
I do not consider prositution as sexual misconduct, because to me, it is the same as any action that we indulge ourselves in - what differs is that we base the result on how we deem each action from our preconceived ideas.
Personally, I agree with many things said here, especially by Wisdom Being. Prostitution can be considered as a job, just that in this case, the service/business is the selling of one's body. And the buyer/client, has the right to purchase this service. It is a consensual transaction, a financial one, therefore no harm done to both parties per se. Sexual misconduct can only come from the part of the client, where he/she goes to a prostitute knowing that it will hurt their respective partners - that is sexual misconduct and they can look for other people to fulfil their desires, not only prostitutes. Anyways, how would the prostitute know that the men/women have respective partners at home waiting for them - all they care about is providing the service that has been paid for, and collecting the cash. That is it.
So, if one drinks alot, and this results in sexual misconduct from the side of the drinker, will it then result in the bar owner's/bar-tender's fault for selling the alcohol in the first place, which led to the buyer/client who bought the alcohol that played a part in him/her sleeping with someone else? Yes the service is always there, but it doesnt mean that people should "purchase" it just because it is there. We are the judge,the decider of all our actions, so prositution is not a case of sexual misconduct.
-
It all boils down to karma. It could be due to karma created in the past lives of the prostitute or it could the negative karma of the parents, especially the father that has created the effect on the daughter. Girls who are mistreated at home and scolded by their parents tend to leave home. If they do not have a good education and thus cannot find jobs, they might land up in bars, singing at hotels and become prostitutes. I read somewhere that one of the causes of girls becoming victims of men is when the father is a womanizer. The negative karma affects the daughters. So fathers should stop being womanizers and be kind to their daughters. We can't just blame the society, the environment, bad friends, etc. These are just the conditions that cause the karma to ripen.
So is prostitution sexual misconduct? It is difficult to say due to the many different types of cases and their causes. I see it as great suffering as a result of negative karma.
-
LOL!
This thread has generated tremendous amounts of replies from so many people.
I still stand on my ground that prostitution is a sexual misconduct because I have not heard of a single prostitute that is respected by others and who respects herself/himself. I will not talk of the politics of the trade here as there is so many possibilities. But I will talk about how it leads many people, both men and women to get addicted to a fantasy that serves no real purpose but to increase desire.
When desire is increased, it is not a good thing. The act itself is not wrong but it leads to other vice, crime and social problems. If you say that is alright, then you are are saying all that it leads to is alright. That doesn't mean all prostitutes are bad people but it is a trade that is negative and is a catalyst towards even more negative karma. Some countries resorted to legalize the trade but doesn't change the fundamental problem with prostitution:- it always accompanies crime in all countries.
-
LOL!
This thread has generated tremendous amounts of replies from so many people.
I still stand on my ground that prostitution is a sexual misconduct because I have not heard of a single prostitute that is respected by others and who respects herself/himself. I will not talk of the politics of the trade here as there is so many possibilities. But I will talk about how it leads many people, both men and women to get addicted to a fantasy that serves no real purpose but to increase desire.
When desire is increased, it is not a good thing. The act itself is not wrong but it leads to other vice, crime and social problems. If you say that is alright, then you are are saying all that it leads to is alright. That doesn't mean all prostitutes are bad people but it is a trade that is negative and is a catalyst towards even more negative karma. Some countries resorted to legalize the trade but doesn't change the fundamental problem with prostitution:- it always accompanies crime in all countries.
Dear Big Uncle,
Yeah funny how topics that relate to our desires, and what we are accustomed with and know always end up being so popular huh. hehehe. Most of the time, I guess it's easier to speak with things that we know, and can relate with, and put a Buddhist perspective to it. More experential.
Anyways, just wanted to reply to your post. Because of the fact that you have not heard of a single prostitute that is respected by others doesn't mean that there are none, right? So I don't think it is fair to base your judgement on that alone. What you said that "how it leads many people, both men and women to get addicted to a fantasy that serves no real purpose but to increase desire" - I agree, but everything in samsara that we do and only know of serves to increase desire - from our job, which increases our desire to earn more, to our house, our car, our material goods. We live our lives as fantasies, no? Without the knowledge of Dharma, anyways, I guess we do.
Also, I guess even if someone is a sex addict, it is a good thing that they can pay for releasing their desires, instead of raping others, no? So crime rate does not necessarily increase because of prostitution, I feel.
What you said about desire reminds me of Vajrayogini's pratice; how our Lady Goddess uses our deep desires and turns us towards the Dharma. Who knows, maybe Bodhisattvas may manifest as prostitutes, and like Vajrayogini, uses our desires and turns us to the Dharma.. Chogyam Trungpa, did everything we desire, and brought many to the Dharma.
Just sharing my thoughts..
-
A prostitute sells sexual favors in return for a token sum of money - that is selling services.
If someone goes into prostitution due to force by family members to pay off a huge debt, then how can she be guilty of sexual misconduct?
If a person becomes a prostitute on her own free will, she knowingly offers her services to her clients, irregardless whether he is married or not - she would not even bother to ask, maybe? If she does not know, how could she be guilty of it? But if she finds out that her client is a married man and yet still goes ahead with her service, then she is guilty.
-
Did a little research on this topic and found the following :
[url]http://www.sexwork.com/Thailand/buddhism.html[/url] ([url]http://www.sexwork.com/Thailand/buddhism.html[/url])
The Influence Of Thai Buddhism on Prostitution
Traditional Acceptance / Encouragement vs. Modern Reform Views
While Buddhist attitudes prevail about women as inferior beings, their status is karmic, or fated, and not due to a personal failing or moral flaw. Temporary work in the sex industry may be seen as fate or karma, not a moral flaw in the girl herself, or it may be seen as work for her family that gains her karmic merit.
Comment : The above article and view is the first i've ever come across and I am referring to the point it is to gain her karmic merit.
Thanks for sharing this. I also came across this same article a few months back and what really caught my attention was this line:-
Buddhism, the national religion of Thailand, is a major reason that Thai women become prostitutes.
It's pretty sad how Buddhism has been misinterpreted and polluted this way. Real Buddhism teaches us that women are to be seen equal as men. The Hindus believes in it as well that it's bad karma to be born as a woman and woman are meant to serve men. I think it's total nonsense. This is probably made up by men.
It's wrong views, sexual misconduct and to add on more negative karma, I've also heard cases where prostitutes uses black magic to lure customers and keeps them coming back to them. So if anyone thinks it's a one off just for fun trip to Thailand, it may not be. Better think twice before engaging in your sexual desires.
-
This is a very long thread i ever seen because of desire..
I think prostitution is a sexual misconduct, simply because of its action which cause harm and hurt other. Prostitues sell sex and service, and definitely they not only service one person in one night, right? so the chance that one of the clients will have partner is high and she or he does it daily so the amount of people he or she has hurt are uncountable.. you just think about it.. There are 365 days in one year and how many clients she/he service in one day? So how it not be a sexual misconduct?
Its just a matter of how heavy of their negative karma they create daily...
-
How do we define prostitution as sexual misconduct? It is hard to define as there are many factors and grey areas which cannot be pinpointed and cannot be generalized. So many factors that may lead a person to be a prostitute, mainly out of poverty, forced or willingly for easy money. In the end these prostitutes are humans too. Some have a choice to be one and some don't. I've heard that some prostitute actually raised funds to build a Dharma centre. Does that mean sexual misconduct as well?
-
LOL!
This thread has generated tremendous amounts of replies from so many people.
I still stand on my ground that prostitution is a sexual misconduct because I have not heard of a single prostitute that is respected by others and who respects herself/himself. I will not talk of the politics of the trade here as there is so many possibilities. But I will talk about how it leads many people, both men and women to get addicted to a fantasy that serves no real purpose but to increase desire.
When desire is increased, it is not a good thing. The act itself is not wrong but it leads to other vice, crime and social problems. If you say that is alright, then you are are saying all that it leads to is alright. That doesn't mean all prostitutes are bad people but it is a trade that is negative and is a catalyst towards even more negative karma. Some countries resorted to legalize the trade but doesn't change the fundamental problem with prostitution:- it always accompanies crime in all countries.
Big Uncle,
I agree with you in general but I disagree with the point that there are no so called prostitutes who are respected by others or no so called prostitutes that respects themselves. In countries where prostitution is legal and even somewhat of an "institution" it is seen as a legit earning and i dare say is a respected trade. Some people even see it as, I sleep around anyways so why not get paid for it? And on the other end of the scale, there are people who are genuinely looking for sexual company and are willing to pay for the "perfect" company... wrong? Perhaps... but it certainly is "better" than pushing it under the carpet and thinking it does not exist. We cannot change societies misconceptions overnight but at least we can make it less damaging. Is this not Buddhist?
I do believe it all has to do with the "trade" and how it is perceived. Take for example an abattoir, people who run it believes it is a legit business, that they are doing society a favour in providing a service which most would cringe at and people in general "accept" it as something necessary. Warped or not is not in question but is all perception.
Sure I can stay on my high horse and say everyone beneath me is wrong but the fact of the matter is, I think I am the only one on the horse or that a horse is high when I have not sen an elephant! :P
My point is, for us lay people who are not living a monks' or nuns' life, are we or were we sexually active in the past? Did we create negative karma? Is it any different from the life of a prostitute? Did we not do it for a free meal, some gifts, the pleasure or merely the company? We all wanted something and we all took something out of it. So how different is that from a prostitute really?
-
I think this is interesting topic, as we all know most countries in Europe and some Asian countries actually legalized prostitution. So that's mundane world, whatabout in spirituality vise. I feel its never a positive action to do either buying it or selling it. Will your partner be happy with what u did when you told him/her that you went to see a prostitute for sex? If u asked me whether a prostitute would be happy to be in this job I would say not likely. Their intention is for the quick money to please their family or oneself or for survival.
Negative actions such as prostitutions, stealings, lying etc does give people unhappy feelings. So why would negative actions won't count as breaking a vow in this case Sexual Misconduct. I would say it is a sexual misconduct whether you have a partner or not.
-
To add on to my previous reply how prostitution are being conducted in Thailand. When I was in Bangkok 2 years back, I drove pass many young teenage girls by the street prostituting themselves. I was told that there are more and more under age college girls now prostituting themselves so that they could buy the latest phones, clothes, shoes, handbags and look pretty. This was since the new president took over and has modernized the country. It's not even to support themselves or their family. I would consider that as sexual misconduct. Anything which is to gain benefits for oneself while increasing someone else's attachments is never a good thing.
-
Let's do not forget prostitution is the oldest profession the the world, and i agreed that it will be better if countries would legalized prostitution. I believed it'll help to minimized force prostitution, child prostitution and would encourage them to have proper body check if there's a specific health care center is designed specially for them. So why not legalized and acknowledge the existence of these society by taking care of them? It'll be here whether we like it or not? I do not agree to this industry but i hope people in general should help or understand these people who whereby have a karma to become a prostitute. Nobody wants to be a prostitute i believed.
Being a prostitute is not a behavior of sexual misconduct but it is if he or she performing this negative action behind their love ones or family. In another words if a married man pay a visit to a prostitute carrying a sense of desire of sex and perform it behind their love ones it is considered he broke the vow not only sexual misconduct but lying as well.
-
We have a tendency to label and judge people broadly based on very general perceptions. For e.g. prostitution in general carries a negative connotation while a doctor is generally seen as a noble profession. In practice it is not that clear cut but it does reflect how our shallow minds compartmentalize everything. A criminal is bad, a policeman is good. A monk is virtuous, a Lama is more virtuous than a simple monk.
A person who has to prostitute himself or herself out of dire need to provide for others is far nobler than a doctor who neglects his Socratic oath and refuses to provide medical care for those who cannot afford his fees.
The prostitute is one half of the equation. The other half of the equation is the client. Why just focus on the provider of the service?
-
Prostitution in the conventional sense denotes selling sex. Does not matter male or female or whatever configuration. Putting aside pimps, forced prostitution etc and considering prostitution only, if the sex hurts another, whether the person knows it or not, it is consider sexual misconduct. Hence, if a prostitute's client is married or have a commitment to a girlfriend then the act is SM.
Prostitution itself is not SM but leads to very high chance of SM. Technically, if a prostitute somehow only have client who are not committed to another, then prostitution is not SM.
Of course for SM to be complete we need the 4 factors to be present including penetration and rejoicing. Ironically, if a prostitute is forced into the trade and never rejoice the act, then it is not SM.
I agreed mostly of your comment here in exception to the last statement regarding the 4 factors i.e. "if a prostitute is forced into the trade and never rejoice the act, then it is not SM (sexual misconduct)."
This is totally ridiculous!
You are only viewing on the prostitute point of view, if she/he being forced, it is not Sexual Misconduct on her/his side but on the client side, I can safely say, the client definitely 'rejoice' in the 'trade' and since the prostitute is unwilling, IT IS DEFINITELY SEXUAL MISCONDUCT ON the CLIENT side!
If the prostitutes are being forced (or cheated into, sold into, etc), we definitely cannot say they have committed the Sexual Misconduct because they are unwilling, definitely no rejoice. It is a violation of human right, a crime by the party/ person who forced them. They are suffering from being tortured into engaging in sexual act that they definitely not consented to.
If the client knowingly participate as to engage them by paying the pimp or the forcing party, then the client is also participating in the CRIME of human trade. This is more serious karma then Sexual Misconduct, mind you!
-
Sex really sells huh.. look how long this thread is! hehe.
Let's go back to the Lamrim:
Components of sexual misconduct (for lay people)
1. basis = any wrong orifices i.e. all orifices except the vagina; any wrong time; any improper place; any wrong partner
recognition = one must be in no doubt that the act is sexual misconduct
delusion = 1 of the 3 poisons
2. motive = wanting to engage in perversion
3. deed = 2 organs coming into contact
4. final step = experience of orgasm
Prostitution is the act or practice of providing sexual services to another person in return for payment. So prostitutions involves 2 parties, the seller and buyer.
From the side of the prostitute, I would imagine that their motive in engaging in that line is not to get sex, but money. So does such motive tick the box for sexual misconduct? If sexual misconduct is determined by whether the action would hurt others, then the prostitute would have to ask the client if he was married/ in a relationship / what would his family / friends feel if they know about this... etc and decide to accept or reject the client after considering whether the act would hurt anyone, if they want to avoid committing sexual misconduct?
From the side of the client, the motive is to have sex. assuming its the right orifice, and if the person is single + available.. then there is no sexual misconduct?