Author Topic: prostitution  (Read 37831 times)

Ensapa

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2011, 02:55:19 PM »
prostitution is not sexual misconduct but it goes against right livelihood in the 8 noble paths, where a lay person is not recommended to deal with businesses that involve killing, trading of flesh (which also means prostitution), drugs, poison, liquor etc.

there are willing prostitutes out there who see it as selling a service that they can provide. It takes a lot of determination to be one, especially servicing clients that are not of  one's sexual preference. And also the risk of abuse, sexual diseases and rape. Personally i dont like that lifestyle...what if one day i have to stoop to that level? it is going to be a huge blow to the self, but i respect them in a way because they can put up with it.

WisdomBeing

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2012, 04:21:51 PM »
In countries like the Netherlands, prostitution is legal. The prostitutes have health checks, they pay their taxes. It's a profession like any other, fulfilling a need. Why is prostitution looked down on when it is the same as a night club, where people meet up and have sex with strangers all the time - the only difference is that one is paid and the other isn't. Although sometimes it is paid in kind - like if a guy takes the girl out on the town, to a good restaurant etc and he expects sex in return.

i don't think prostitution is sexual misconduct if it is consensual.

There are so many little niggly things - eg is oral sex considered sexual misconduct?? I remember the Dalai Lama once said that sex should be for procreation only, therefore oral sex and non-procreational sex is sexual misconduct?

Geez. I guess sex (paid or unpaid) IS of course an attachment but since we are not all bodhisattvas yet, we will indulge - but let's just keep to the general moral disciplines of being faithful to our partners and respecting them.
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KhedrubGyatso

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2012, 04:53:17 PM »
I am inclined towards what yontenjamyang said re prostitution is not SM if it is consensual.
However, there is still the problem of wrong livelihood.This means the prostitute creates opportunity for married men etc to commit ' sins' against their wives or partners and also as promoter of  attachment to sensual gratification. It becomes a vicious cycle when the paying customers also encourage the flourishing of prostitution by creating the demand.
I also like the rationale about prostitution having a high chance of turning into an act of SM.This has its parallel in the injunction against getting angry. When we become angry , there is high chance we lose control and  engage in negative actions although those with high cultivation can employ anger and transform its energy into benefitting others.
For the above reasons, we would have to agree that as Buddhists we cannot condone prostitution even in its most benign form as the  associated risks of causing suffering to oneself , family , spouse etc  are too overwhelming to justify whatever little benefit it has mentioned here such as fulfilling a need, its a service , etc.

WisdomBeing

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2012, 02:29:57 AM »
I am inclined towards what yontenjamyang said re prostitution is not SM if it is consensual.
However, there is still the problem of wrong livelihood.This means the prostitute creates opportunity for married men etc to commit ' sins' against their wives or partners and also as promoter of  attachment to sensual gratification. It becomes a vicious cycle when the paying customers also encourage the flourishing of prostitution by creating the demand.
I also like the rationale about prostitution having a high chance of turning into an act of SM.This has its parallel in the injunction against getting angry. When we become angry , there is high chance we lose control and  engage in negative actions although those with high cultivation can employ anger and transform its energy into benefitting others.
For the above reasons, we would have to agree that as Buddhists we cannot condone prostitution even in its most benign form as the  associated risks of causing suffering to oneself , family , spouse etc  are too overwhelming to justify whatever little benefit it has mentioned here such as fulfilling a need, its a service , etc.

Married men will commit adultery with anyone if they wanted to in the first place. It doesn't mean that the prostitutes tempt the men to adultery. The responsibility is FULLY at the married man.

I agree that prostitution can be seen as wrong livelihood. So is gambling, butchers etc. but why are casinos and butchers allowed? Casinos say that they are licensed. So can prostitution. I believe that if prostitution was legalised, there would be better control over this industry as to the health of all involved, the ladies (or gentlemen) would be protected from violence, their clients protected from being robbed etc. And the government would also receive taxes! However, because of the moral stigma on prostitution, not many countries legalise it so it is an underground movement which becomes linked to other underground movements of drugs and anything illegal.

Prostitution is a fact of life and always will be around. If anyone thinks that legalising prostitution will be the downfall of society, look at the Netherlands. Prostitution is legal there but it's not like everyone goes out and visits one on a sunday afternoon.

I think it's up to the education of people in general regarding the sanctity of a relationship - that if you are in a relationship, you don't go and have sex with someone else, whether paid or unpaid! Personally i feel that sex is overrated. It's like in the Middle East, where they cover their women up. My friend said he was working there for 6 months and he really didn't see any women.. and when he glimpsed a woman's ankle, he got 'excited'. Compare that to the nudist beaches you have in Greece. People are walking around starkers and you know what, people don't really give a toss. In Scandinavia where people are more liberal about sex, rape is at a very low rate. The more uptight about sex a society is, the more rape crimes exist. I'd rather a desperate guy go to a prostitute than rape someone or have incest with a minor. Of course it would be better if he can control himself etc etc but obviously that doesn't work.

Personally i think that sexual misconduct is about not being faithful to your partner. So being a prostitute is not sexual misconduct but if the person visiting the prostitute is married, then he/she is the one guilty of sexual misconduct.

Ok, i'm getting off my soap box now.

Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Ensapa

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2012, 03:26:31 PM »
Married men will commit adultery with anyone if they wanted to in the first place. It doesn't mean that the prostitutes tempt the men to adultery. The responsibility is FULLY at the married man.

I agree that prostitution can be seen as wrong livelihood. So is gambling, butchers etc. but why are casinos and butchers allowed? Casinos say that they are licensed. So can prostitution. I believe that if prostitution was legalised, there would be better control over this industry as to the health of all involved, the ladies (or gentlemen) would be protected from violence, their clients protected from being robbed etc. And the government would also receive taxes! However, because of the moral stigma on prostitution, not many countries legalise it so it is an underground movement which becomes linked to other underground movements of drugs and anything illegal.

Prostitution is a fact of life and always will be around. If anyone thinks that legalising prostitution will be the downfall of society, look at the Netherlands. Prostitution is legal there but it's not like everyone goes out and visits one on a sunday afternoon.

I think it's up to the education of people in general regarding the sanctity of a relationship - that if you are in a relationship, you don't go and have sex with someone else, whether paid or unpaid! Personally i feel that sex is overrated. It's like in the Middle East, where they cover their women up. My friend said he was working there for 6 months and he really didn't see any women.. and when he glimpsed a woman's ankle, he got 'excited'. Compare that to the nudist beaches you have in Greece. People are walking around starkers and you know what, people don't really give a toss. In Scandinavia where people are more liberal about sex, rape is at a very low rate. The more uptight about sex a society is, the more rape crimes exist. I'd rather a desperate guy go to a prostitute than rape someone or have incest with a minor. Of course it would be better if he can control himself etc etc but obviously that doesn't work.

Personally i think that sexual misconduct is about not being faithful to your partner. So being a prostitute is not sexual misconduct but if the person visiting the prostitute is married, then he/she is the one guilty of sexual misconduct.

Ok, i'm getting off my soap box now.

Actually, a relationship between 2 persons can include sex with others if both partners allow (open relationship). I know couples who hire prostitutes to spice things up.

And yes, you're right about the people visiting the prostitutes breaking their marriage commitment, and not the prostitutes themselves. Married people can even cheat on each  other, with or without prostitutes. So to say that as a basis for prostitutes being wrong livelihood isn't exactly a sound argument.

also, we tend to forget that there are willing and intelligent prostitutes/escorts out there who actually do it out of choice and who are educated and who enjoy what they are doing, as the stereotype of those tend to be exploited women. What about them?

WisdomBeing

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2012, 04:34:47 PM »
that's an interesting point i hadn't thought of. Is it sexual misconduct if one's partner gives permission, i.e. open relationships? in that case, there isn't hurt to the other party.

Also the professional ladies, as you say, Ensapa, who may just treat it as a job. i've heard of ladies who are wannabe models who get paid a lot of money to be prostitutes. i guess for some people, it is as distasteful as cleaning toilets, but they get paid a lot more. Instead of being exploited, these women may even exploit men, i guess.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Ensapa

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2012, 04:15:35 AM »
that's an interesting point i hadn't thought of. Is it sexual misconduct if one's partner gives permission, i.e. open relationships? in that case, there isn't hurt to the other party.

Also the professional ladies, as you say, Ensapa, who may just treat it as a job. i've heard of ladies who are wannabe models who get paid a lot of money to be prostitutes. i guess for some people, it is as distasteful as cleaning toilets, but they get paid a lot more. Instead of being exploited, these women may even exploit men, i guess.

yup. open relationships do exist and it is to me, the pinnacle of love where you can separate between lust and love at the ultimate level. I have seen it work. Because the love by these people have already crossed the boundaries of physical needs and they love their partner enough to allow their partners to satisfy themselves with others.

Even now there are several classes of prostitutes, with the more exclusive ones called escorts, where they sell their company and/or body to their clients. Then you have the cheap, sterotypical types. So the former i dont really see it as wrong livelihood as they are just selling a service, but selling one's body (or someone else's) goes against the 8 noble paths.

hope rainbow

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2012, 04:35:54 AM »
Well... I read the above with interest and concern.

I have been in open relationships and not.

In both I have committed adultery. In one case it was "allowed", in the other "it was not".

Looking at this activities with a distance, I just feel the same thought: what was this all for? and I get bored just even thinking about it.

Sometimes one needs to touch something to deflate it like a balloon that look big colorful and attractive but that was just full of air.

WisdomBeing

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 04:57:53 AM »
Dear Hope,

I guess the above is more for hypothetical discussion. I for one am not going to be a prostitute nor visit one, hence it doesn't apply. As for open relationships, i also have been there, done that, got the t-shirts. Sex is just an attachment - like to good food, music, holidays etc. Everything is delusion - what we hanker for which does not benefit others is essentially the balloon you're talking about. Sex is no different. My issue is that people place so much condemnation and judgment on sex - who you're doing it with, how you're doing it, where you're doing it, how often etc etc etc when it's JUST a body function like eating and defecating. What is the BIG deal?? (rhetorical question - not directed at you, Hope dear) :)
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Big Uncle

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2012, 05:31:02 AM »
I personally think that prostitution is sexual misconduct. Sex itself is basically an expression of lust and using lust as a means of living just invites more problems. Why? The inherent nature of the act is lustful and like alcohol or gambling, one is intoxicated by it and the intoxicant don't bring harm directly, it is the side effects and so forth that brings harm.

Hence, prostitution open more doors to other social and moral issues. All prostitutes know that their clients would usually have a partner and they just want to have some fun. So they knowingly commit sexual misconduct, which makes it even worse. Unless prostitutes are forced into it, they are free to pursue other more wholesome means of living.

On the other hand, open relationships are a different issue altogether. It will end up with breakups and short relationships. There are exceptions to the rule but that is few and far in between. If all you are interested is relationships, sex and so forth, well, expect a rebirth in the 3 lower realms (most likely as an animal). I am sorry but i think that's where most prostitutes will go for all the 'pleasures' they give. 

Ensapa

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2012, 06:19:58 AM »
Well... I read the above with interest and concern.

I have been in open relationships and not.

In both I have committed adultery. In one case it was "allowed", in the other "it was not".

Looking at this activities with a distance, I just feel the same thought: what was this all for? and I get bored just even thinking about it.

Sometimes one needs to touch something to deflate it like a balloon that look big colorful and attractive but that was just full of air.

I guess  each to their own. Some people just have a high sex drive and one partner is not enough, and that they are lucky enough to find a partner who is willing to allow. However instances like these are super rare.

Most people in general just are not prepared or ready for an open relationship, or when they actually engage in such a relationship they realize that they are not cut out for it. Sometimes what we think we can handle and what we actually can handle are different.

I personally think that prostitution is sexual misconduct. Sex itself is basically an expression of lust and using lust as a means of living just invites more problems. Why? The inherent nature of the act is lustful and like alcohol or gambling, one is intoxicated by it and the intoxicant don't bring harm directly, it is the side effects and so forth that brings harm.

Hence, prostitution open more doors to other social and moral issues. All prostitutes know that their clients would usually have a partner and they just want to have some fun. So they knowingly commit sexual misconduct, which makes it even worse. Unless prostitutes are forced into it, they are free to pursue other more wholesome means of living.

On the other hand, open relationships are a different issue altogether. It will end up with breakups and short relationships. There are exceptions to the rule but that is few and far in between. If all you are interested is relationships, sex and so forth, well, expect a rebirth in the 3 lower realms (most likely as an animal). I am sorry but i think that's where most prostitutes will go for all the 'pleasures' they give. 

Well what about bachelors who engage in prostitution? I still think that it is the married men themselves who are to blame.

hope rainbow

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2012, 12:27:11 PM »
Dear Hope,

I guess the above is more for hypothetical discussion.
I for one am not going to be a prostitute nor visit one, hence it doesn't apply.
As for open relationships, i also have been there, done that, got the t-shirts.
Sex is just an attachment - like to good food, music, holidays etc.
Everything is delusion - what we hanker for which does not benefit others is essentially the balloon you're talking about.
Sex is no different.
My issue is that people place so much condemnation and judgment on sex - who you're doing it with, how you're doing it, where you're doing it, how often etc etc etc when it's JUST a body function like eating and defecating.
What is the BIG deal?? (rhetorical question - not directed at you, Hope dear) :)

Dear WB,

Certainly my post was not judgmental. Simply an expression of my experience.
Sex and sexual activities is not something I look at as being "good" or "evil", but as an activity that has causes and that has consequences.
And certainly not an activity similar to defecating (I admit similarities with eating though). One is an attachment, the other (defecating) is a body function and much less an attachment than sex is.

What are the causes for sexual activity and what are consequences?

Consequences can be that we are hurting someone else or/and that we are hurting ourselves.
(it's not always the case, but there is a possibility for it that one needs to look at realistically)
So I disagree with some people on this forum that argue that if we do not hurt somebody it's ok, because it is over-looking the aspect of sexual activities reinforcing our attachment to sex. When it is done in ways to look at others as objects of sexual desire only, it transforms our world and we see others as potential sexual partners or not, and I am talking of experience.

When one reduces his attachment to sexual activity, the world slowly looses sexually attractive people. I have experienced this myself. It does so to a point where one wonders where all the sexually attractive people have disappeared???
They have not disappeared, it is our projections that have disappeared.

I think we should be wise when we speak of sex, and not speak with a mind of attachment, nor be fooled by such mind. And I say this without judgment on it.
Prostitutes may have a social role to play on some societies, and there are positive aspects to it indeed, I think many posts above have expressed that. But let's note over-rule the Buddhas' teachings with our "views" and let's take this views as they are, not truths, but "views."

Ensapa

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2012, 03:42:13 AM »
Dear WB,

Certainly my post was not judgmental. Simply an expression of my experience.
Sex and sexual activities is not something I look at as being "good" or "evil", but as an activity that has causes and that has consequences.
And certainly not an activity similar to defecating (I admit similarities with eating though). One is an attachment, the other (defecating) is a body function and much less an attachment than sex is.

What are the causes for sexual activity and what are consequences?

Consequences can be that we are hurting someone else or/and that we are hurting ourselves.
(it's not always the case, but there is a possibility for it that one needs to look at realistically)
So I disagree with some people on this forum that argue that if we do not hurt somebody it's ok, because it is over-looking the aspect of sexual activities reinforcing our attachment to sex. When it is done in ways to look at others as objects of sexual desire only, it transforms our world and we see others as potential sexual partners or not, and I am talking of experience.

When one reduces his attachment to sexual activity, the world slowly looses sexually attractive people. I have experienced this myself. It does so to a point where one wonders where all the sexually attractive people have disappeared???
They have not disappeared, it is our projections that have disappeared.

I think we should be wise when we speak of sex, and not speak with a mind of attachment, nor be fooled by such mind. And I say this without judgment on it.
Prostitutes may have a social role to play on some societies, and there are positive aspects to it indeed, I think many posts above have expressed that. But let's note over-rule the Buddhas' teachings with our "views" and let's take this views as they are, not truths, but "views."

sex for my body is actually a bodily function/need as well as an emotional one. There are several periods in a year where i feel the need for a partner and at the same time everyone appears to be a potential partner. At the same time I would also have the need to engage in sexual activity with another person even after self pleasure.  It is highly annoying I cannot do much except bear with it and keep distracting myself with work and friends until the period ends.  It is also on these periods where I need to exercise willpower to control myself from seeking one night stands. It is not within control as in to override it in my mind, but i have to keep distracting myself.

If i have a partner i am certain i can fulfill such needs with my partner but due to my past karma i dont really hope to get a partner as it can be quite tedious and unnecessary.

I dont think i will have such needs once I get a partner, because it's just a need and it will stop once it is fulfilled.

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2012, 04:26:55 AM »
There are code of conduct in any situation that we live in. There are religious rules, civil rules and laws that regulate our conduct, some are restrictive and some are permissive.

Prostitution is but only one of the ways of making a living in samsara that creates a lot of debates to whether it is right or wrong.  What about the other methods of making a living?

By civil rules and laws, prostitution is illegal in many parts of the world, by moral conduct it is unthinkable and by religious rules it is condemned.

My point is if one falls into making a living which is against all rules, in the knowledge and practice of Buddhism, we can with the help of guidance by a Buddhist Spiritual Guide make amends and rectify our negative karma to elevate us from such a sad situation. That to me is the most important essence of living a virtuous life.

bambi

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Re: prostitution
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2012, 09:11:46 AM »
I pity those people as they might not have chosen the job voluntarily. What about people sold to prostitution? What about people forced to be a prostitute to help the family? What if that's the only job to financially support themselves?
In then end, it's our karma to be in that place.  Negative habituations that led such a strong negative imprint that carried on until the day they can meet Dharma.  Everyday I watch and read the news, I keep asking myself what did these people do that made them suffer like that. I feel sad and my heart aches when I see these people. I try to remind myself that I will try very hard not to judge nor look down on these people but try to help them if I can.