Author Topic: All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...  (Read 31806 times)

Middleway

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Re: All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2010, 03:13:04 PM »
Can I just say a big 'thanks' to everyone on this forum for engaging in this debate.  The objections raised by the 'Noobs' are ones I hear fairly frequently & I have sometimes struggled to answer them.  Through reading posts in this & other threads my clarity over the dangers of their point of view has increased & I feel much better equipped to give a clear message to the people around me.  My point is: Don't worry too much that this debate has been a waste of time - people are learning & sharpening their wisdom (well, some people anyway!).  Lets face it - it's an inevitable debate & even if you've said it all before & may have to say it again, your efforts are producing good results.  That said, I wouldn't blame you for simply disengaging from it if people keep repeating the same tired point over & over ad infinitum.  Maybe you could just start posting links to existing refutations!!!

Hold on, I've just come up with a theory: The 'Noobs' are actually emanations of Buddha's helping to spread the Dharma by playing Devils Advocate & increasing the wisdom of people like myself! Thanks Noobs! :)

a friend

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Re: All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2010, 03:48:06 PM »


Thank you Kate and Middleway, I feel different cool breezes coming in and refreshing the website and the discussion. Great.

I also thank you Ensapa, because you gave us an explanation about the mistery of the Noobs. So your Lama told you all to come here to this website and give us advice. Cool, now you might also listen to us and start thinking for yourself and even bring this exchange back to your Lama, he might want to participate too. After all, there is a lot of interpretive matter around here, so there is room for discussion. He might even become a member of the Forum, either openly or anonymously, and participate in this conversation. Why not?


Big Uncle

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Re: All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2010, 05:50:07 PM »
Hi guys,

I read through the thread and I am amazed by the amount of passion that everyone puts towards voicing their views. Personally, I have come to the conclusion that I agree with the points presented by both sides. However although being very angry with the Dalai Lama is very alluring considering all that has been done.

However, I still can't discredit the possibility that a higher purpose that the Dalai Lama has to lift Dorje Shugden higher and farther throughout the world seemed like another exciting possibility. If it was not, than we really question the entire lineage of the great Mahasiddhas that continue to inspire us with Tantric vision of perfection that always lie outside the framework of what we ordinarily think is right or wrong. I know! Such an explanation can hardly justify what the Dalai Lama is doing yet I dwell in this notion still, perferring this view to escape the insanity of anger.

Instead of condemning hating another being whom I am not even sure is Avalokiteshvara or not as I do not have the wisdom to judge. I leave the judging to our great lineage Lama Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche because he had advised us not to judge the Dalai Lama when the time of conflict arises. He being such a great awakened being must have foreseen all this.

Anyway, when we die, all must come to pass but Dorje Shugden will prevail. Shouldn't we work harder to preserve and propagate him so he benefit others? Wouldn't it be an even better legacy to leave behind?

Happy Losar!

Atishas cook

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Re: All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2010, 06:00:39 PM »
Big Uncle -

who is expressing hatred for the Dalai Lama here?  please don't confuse strong words and condemnation for hatred.  we do not hate the Dalai Lama.  we will not stop condemning him until he stops destroying holy Dharma.

please stop refusing to accept this - it is getting very tiresome.  if you perceive hatred, look to your own mind.

and on a related point - please don't talk about "sides" here, as if we are split.  where are these sides?  we are all brothers and sisters in our Dorje Shugden practice, but some among us disagree on the nature of the Dalai Lama and the best method to stop his harmful actions.  this does not put us on opposing sides: we are all on the same side here, assuming everyone is truthfully describing their views.  once again, if you perceive sides, look to your own mind.

be careful not to engage in divisive speech, please - that's something we can all agree that no-one wants

Big Uncle

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Re: All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2010, 06:43:39 PM »
Dear Atishas cook,

It is obvious there is hate involved or (fine!) a very strong dislike to condemn someone. With what I have read so far in some of the posts, how else am I going to feel about the Dalai Lama? Don't tell me, that everyone in this forum is spreading love for the Dalai Lama and I'm missing the point. I don't think so! So please don't you go on your moral/Dharma high horse and say that you don't hate the Dalai Lama so as to put me down. I don't think that is necessary. I hope we can make peace on that one.

Dear everyone else,

Anyway, I think i need to clarify - I am not purposely creating sides nor am I trying to say that people here hate the Dalai Lama. I just want to express that I am doing my best to keep a sane mind with my practice - Dorje Shugden and choosing to believe that the Dalai Lama has a bigger picture for all of us. That's all.

 

Atishas cook

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Re: All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2010, 07:00:30 PM »
I'm not putting you down.  but you're confused: you say that it's obvious there's hate involved because of our strong condemnation - this is not correct. and, with respect, you are saying that people here hate the Dalai Lama!  all I'm saying is that this is wrong.  please think clearly.

I'm glad you're not trying purposefully to create division.  all I'm saying is please take care how you use words like "sides".

peace.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 07:02:51 PM by Atishas cook »

DSFriend

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Re: All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2010, 08:22:33 PM »
I'm sure there'll be NEW NOOBS coming into this forum in the near future, who will also benefit from all these passionate debates. I know I have benefited much. I must admit that initially, I felt some form of hostility, calling of names, jumping to conclusions about my intentions. If I can say so now, there are much more openness in our debates.  ;)

best wishes to all!
DK

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2010, 10:08:02 PM »
However, I still can't discredit the possibility that a higher purpose that the Dalai Lama has to lift Dorje Shugden higher and farther throughout the world seemed like another exciting possibility. If it was not, than we really question the entire lineage of the great Mahasiddhas that continue to inspire us with Tantric vision of perfection that always lie outside the framework of what we ordinarily think is right or wrong. I know! Such an explanation can hardly justify what the Dalai Lama is doing yet I dwell in this notion still, perferring this view to escape the insanity of anger.

Ah, now I see the basis from which you have written some of your posts. I think (and please do correct me if I have seen it wrongly), that you have given yourself only two possibilities: Either (1) the DL is a supreme holy being, whereby all his actions have a greater purpose, unseen beneficial aim, and that there is after all a great plan, or (2) the DL is a scoundrel, utterly evil, to be hated and loathed.

But have you ever considered a proposition number (3)? It says, that the DL is a human being, a monk, and so forth. And that whether he is viewed as a holy one or as an evil one, or even better, as a human being, all he's actions can be judged in a normal fashion. Like for instance: If he lies about Dharmic issues, it is a lie, bad karma, and so forth, but it is not a "mysterious action of a God, that will later save all humanity from the Evil" nor it is an "devilish twisted stratagem made to destroy the whole of Buddhism and plunge this world into the darkness". It is merely an unethical and unskillful action made by a human being.

Proposition 3 is very nice, because it doesn't force one to classify or categorize living beings into separate classes, living or existing under separate systems of ethics. It treats everybody in the same way - according to the teachings of karma, as taught by Buddha Shakyamuni. I like it personally very much.

If one does not accept proposition 3, one will have great problems in one's ethical life. For instance, if one is offered a cup of tea, one has to first assess whether the offerer is a mara or not. If he is a mara, then the offered cup of tea is probably a devilish trick, causing attachement to rise, or something. Or if somebody comes and kicks one to head, one has to assess whether the assailant is a Buddha or not. If he is a Buddha, then one can happily receive the roundhouse kick, and be sure that oh boy, now the blessings do really rain in. But then again, how can anyone assess the person in front of one? How can you know if the cup-offerer is this or that, a mara, a human, or a Buddha? Or the kung-fu kicker? One cannot. But if one accepts proposition 3, one can react to acts of goodness in appropriate way, and one can react to acts of aggression in proper manner. There is no need to asses the "status of the actor" beforehand, or afterwards, but the act can be taken as is. Life outside of the proposition 3 is no life at all. At least it is not Buddhist life.

There is no need, and in normal life no time, to label the actors as this or that, good or evil. The only thing that matters is the act itself, and one can judge those acts by the universally applicable ethical system taught by Buddha Shakyamuni. There is this immediacy and naturalness. The non-judgemental proposition 3.

vinayaholder

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Re: All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2010, 10:36:08 PM »
ZP: Non judgemental... i like that.



Buddhism without Borders: Contemporary Developments of Buddhism in the West
at the Institute of Buddhist Studies

Berkeley, California
March 18 - 21, 2010
Panel VI: Interpreting Buddhism in the West, 9:30 -12:30
An Analysis of Western Involvement in the Dorje Shugden Controversy
Jeannine Chandler, Siena College

For centuries, Tibetan Buddhists have witnessed the unfolding of a controversy regarding the status and worship of Dorje Shugden, a wrathful protector deity in the Tibetan Buddhist pantheon. Shugden is known for his power and success in protecting members of the Gelug tradition and for punishing those adherents who mix the practices and teachings of the Tibetan schools. Since 1996, the Dalai Lama has proscribed Shugden practice amongst Tibetan Buddhists, citing Shugden’s troubled past and sectarian tendencies. In consideration of Tibetan Buddhism’s globalization, his restrictions on Shugden worship have confused and angered a number of Tibetan Buddhists around the world, both Tibetans and non-Tibetans. The Dalai Lama’s proscription of the deity’s worship and the alleged persecution of Shugden worshippers in exile communities have drawn criticism of his roles as a politician and a religious leader. The debate over the status and worship of protector deity Dorje Shugden has highlighted issues in Tibetan Buddhism relating to the guru-disciple relationship, the authenticity of lineage, and authority amongst the schools in exile and in the West.

Tibetan lamas who have settled in the West have taken sides in the Shugden debate, and subsequently influenced the perspectives of their Western students. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, founder of the New Kadampa Tradition (of which Shugden worship is a central component), has led his Western students in the crusade against the persecution of Shugden worshippers. The injection of Western attitudes, views and values into the Shugden affair has further facilitated the transformation of the dispute. The different cultural context of liberal Western society has added a new dimension to the debate, as each side has co-opted Western “foot soldiers” and used Western rhetoric to gain supporters for its point-of-view. Western confusion regarding the position of the lama in Tibetan Buddhism has exacerbated the Shugden conflict. Shugden-worshipers have organized and initiated protests against the Dalai Lama’s decree throughout Europe and North America. The cult-like devotion to Kelsang Gyatso by his disciples and the protests against the Dalai Lama expose the ambiguity that surrounds the guru-disciple relationship in Tibetan Buddhism in the West. The Shugden conflict provides evidence that, despite a surface commitment to ecumenicism in the overall exile Tibetan community, sectarian consciousness has actually become entrenched amongst Tibetan Buddhists in the West.

The globalization of Tibetan Buddhism has also influenced the forms and forums of the Shugden controversy. Westerners have perpetuated the conflict, specifically via inflammatory rhetoric on the Internet. Debates over topics such as the deity’s status and the position of the Dalai Lama in the dispute have appeared on myriad websites, blogs and discussion boards. These online polemics and international demonstrations have intensified the Shugden conflict. Western involvement has thus complicated and prolonged a centuries-old Tibetan religious dispute.

Atishas cook

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Re: All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2010, 10:48:14 PM »
Quote
Westerners have perpetuated the conflict, specifically via inflammatory rhetoric on the Internet.

???  that's like saying: "the oppressed have perpetuated the conflict by not allowing themselves or their families to be attacked and destroyed by the oppressor".

since when has defending oneself and one's (Dharma) family from harm been a cause of conflict??

i despair sometimes of these intellectuals, journalists and Dalai Lama fan boys.

Middleway

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Re: All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2010, 05:31:48 AM »
It's easy to write, it's harder to substantiate, which is something this article is lacking. Sounds highly subjective to me rather than academic. Another biased forum argument in the guise of academic work. I'm afraid my cynical mind sees 'pride in my opinion' written all over that piece.

Lineageholder

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Re: All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2010, 01:38:28 PM »
Jeannine Chandler would probably think that Naropa had 'cult like devotion' to Tilopa.  Why single out Geshe Kelsang?  Because he's the only one who is prepared publicly to make a stand and have his name associated with opposing the DL.  What about the 'cult like devotion' of those who support the Dalai Lama's position? - no mention because they're all so right and reasonable!

There's also no mention of the many Tibetans who have Tibetan Teachers who oppose the Dalai Lama on Dorje Shugden.  She's painting this opposition as a 'Western' thing.

Shugden is known for punishing those who mix traditions?  Why isn't he punishing the Dalai Lama then?

Academics don't help because most are like people who write about sugar without ever having tasted it.  They like to appear objective but bias is written all over this.

DSFriend

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Re: All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2010, 05:59:57 PM »
"...punishing those adherents who mix the practices.."

Doesn't this sound like some monotheistic type of view/interpretation applied to a Buddhist deity?

Anyway, Vinayaholder, thanks for posting this article. Acquiring information be it similar or different view is cool..makes me think.

honeydakini

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Re: All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2010, 04:12:43 PM »

The globalization of Tibetan Buddhism has also influenced the forms and forums of the Shugden controversy. Westerners have perpetuated the conflict, specifically via inflammatory rhetoric on the Internet. Debates over topics such as the deity’s status and the position of the Dalai Lama in the dispute have appeared on myriad websites, blogs and discussion boards. These online polemics and international demonstrations have intensified the Shugden conflict. Western involvement has thus complicated and prolonged a centuries-old Tibetan religious dispute.

And yet, the practice is growing stronger than ever, more and more people are being exposed to Dharma. Even if they are merely dabbling in it as a fad or a trend or a passing fancy, there are still karmic imprints being made (seeing a buddha image, attending just one or two teachings by a lama, hearing just a few words of Dharma teachings). Yes, perhaps it has "complicated and prolonged" a dispute but that is precisely what a modern mind is like - complicated! The modern mind is somehow automatically drawn to all things complicated, controversial. People may come into Dharma by something as undharmic as politics or controversy, but then gain more understanding of the teachings and eventually, hopefully practice. Isn't that the nature of tantra itself? Using the very things that enslave us (politics, complications, smut, controversy) to free us?

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2010, 06:44:08 PM »
Ah, the good old "God works in mysterious ways" -argument.

Yippikayeehaa!

 >:(