Author Topic: WHY DORJE SHUGDEN HAS TO BE THE BAD GUY?!!  (Read 33271 times)


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« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2010, 06:52:42 PM »
As i said earlier - i like the logic of TK's post. What i think is interesting is that it doesn't really matter who is right or wrong right now because eventually the truth will come out... and when Dorje Shugden practice becomes mainstream and accepted, which i believe it will be, then we will know whose theories was right after all. In the meantime, it is not necessary to cast judgement over what other people say - if we do not share the same view, it's fine to agree to disagree. Respecting differences is how we create harmony with each other - and i believe this is the heart of Dharma.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being


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« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2010, 08:08:53 PM »
• May 14, 1995 – Tsangpa Oracle Prophesy I

"It is important that Tibetans should observe their commitments (dam.tsig) which is their obligation. Particularly, the issue of Gyalchen [Dorje Shugden] is a bad omen. In this direction, we, the formless, are aware that it does not harbor good.

Ha ha! This sounds so fake! "we, the formless....." Goodness...!

Imagine Je Tsongkhapa consulting oracles in this way! Absurd!

People, break your addiction to Tibeatna politics oracles, tulkus and ridiculous fantasies about how protectors function!

Nevertheless, it is our serious concern that there needs to be strict adherence to the wishes of His Holiness and internal unity. Whether it be the People's Deputies or an ordinary Tibetan, it is unacceptable for anyone to engage in partisan politics.

really now.

Dear everyone,

This article above is very powerful. I will share my thoughts and comments on the article. It is what I have believed also for the last decade and a half, and it concurs with the prophesy from Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche in the late 70's. Which is in the future, it may look like Dalai lama is at odds with Dorje Shugden, but in actuality they are helping eachother to make Buddha Dharma grow in the world.

unfortunately, this eruption of power politics into the BuddhaDharma shames all Buddhists, and decreases respect for the Dharma worldwide. People as disgusted with this.

1. Dorje Shugden acts in the Bodhisattva manner accepting criticisms, hate campaigns and the 'destruction' of his practice. Why? Because it serves a bigger purpose for the overall survival of Buddhism in the world for the future. Why? It is easier to resurrect or do a Lazarus on Dorje Shugden in the future when the smoke clears, than it would be for the Dalai lama. The Dalai lama is a man and controlled by media, opinions, ppl, circumstances. But Dorje Shugden is a formless entity that can 'rise' above all of that very quickly when the time is right.

This is just a theory. In general, you have no idea if Dorje Shugden accepts any of this. What do you expect, that he might log on to this forum and state his opinion? Are you waiting on baited breath for the next revelation from an oracle, whose pronouncements you cannot verify? A protector can only work with the karma of those who are involved, that is why the ridiculous statements you read here and elsewhere as to Dorje Shugden's action have no relevance whatsoever. You simply don't know what they are, as you are not able to recognize his blessings and emanations.

2. Whenever Dorje Shugden takes trance in any of the oracles, he never criticizes the Dalai Lama and in fact tells the audience to always withhold criticism towards Dalai Lama. He can say nothing about the Dalai Lama and just keep quiet. Dorje Shugden is well known to not answer questions that has little meaning, insignificant, or unacceptable to the listener. When questions are presented to him through the oracle, he often skips through questions that should not be answered at this time or has no meaning.

Again, you have no idea what is actually going on here, this is all mere supposition, attractive only to those who already subscribe to this theory.

Please don't bother with "the HIGH LAMAS trust the oracles..." most keep quiet and go along for a variety of reasons. The stories about the thirteenth and fourteenth Dalai Lamas taking disastrous advice form oracles abound, so it is clear that many if not most of these lamas are just as in the dark as the rest of us.

It's time for Tibeatan Buddhism to grow up, and what we are experiencing now are the growing pains. Bye bye, oracles, it was fun, but unreliable and ultimately destructive, while it lasted.....

3.All the the destruction happening against him, he never makes comments, speaks against nor advices undharmic actions. Because it can all be fully reversed in a short time when the time is right.

see above.

4. Temporarily Dorje Shugden will accept the name AS THE CAUSE FOR THE LOSS OF TIBET, OR THE CAUSE WHY TIBET CANNOT BE REGAINED BACK, but in the end truth will arise. Dorje Shugden will reveal the true plot which Trijang Rinpoche already hinted at in the late 70's. ( I fold my hands to Trijang Rinpoche and prostrate my full body to Him. I offer my head as a stepping block for his feet. I truly have confidence in this great being. )

Very romantic. I.... uh...offer my heart and blood to the glorious radiant blazing splendour of the impossibly magnificent uh... inconceivable gurus uh...

we ALL have confidence in Trijang Rinpoche here.

“Even these days, some suspect those who rely upon and propitiate Gyalchen (Dorje Shugden) of conjuring ghosts, but it is the babbling talk of those who don’t understand the definitive meaning.” - Trijang Dorjechang

Have some confidence in that.

the rest, again is just your supposition. "then later on, the DL will apologize and the protector practice will be raised as a victory banner for all beings...."

yeah, maybe. I prefer to work towards it rather than pretending the celestials will take care of everything if I just keep quiet and stay in my place.....

5. Dorje Shugden is strong enough to carry such a burden. Dorje Shugden practitioners are resilient enough to not abandon his practice during this crisis. Both Dorje Shugden and his true followers will not abandon eachother no matter what is said and done temporarily at this time.  Both can carry the burden. I personally do not dislike, hate the Dalai Lama but have confidence in him and my own sacred protector Dorje Shugden. I choose to believe and take refuge in Trijang Rinpoche's prophecy. The other two options of hating Dalai lama and abandoning Dorje Shugden are not open to me nor would I choose any of the two options.

tk, come on now.

It is not appropriate to pretend you have not seen yourself the destruction this politicking has casued. Monks in their 70's and 80's weeping openly and saying "I wish I had died before this happened" is just the tip of the iceberg. Families destroyed, moasteries ripped in half, brother turned against brother, people burned and stoned out of their homes......

I'm glad you have been able to keep up with your practice, but it needs to be admitted that many who were not as strong (or as far from the reach of mobs incited by the TGIE) as you have had their spiritual and material lives destoyed.

The options of hating the DL or giving up the protector are not open to any of us here, we are Mahayana Buddhists. Please see beyond the extremes and realize there are more than two options here, and please try to see that you can speak out against injustice without hate. It might be worth a separate discussion as to why this is so difficult for some here to understand..... addiction to social approval? Fear of their own deeply repressed rage? Sentimental compassion that can only accept "nice" talk and smilies as compassionate? I'm sure there are many possibilities.....

6. Why would Dalai Lama act, talk and promote so many contradictory actions that makes himself look unstable. Unless it was on purpose. I believe that truly. He is not stupid.

He may be stupid, he may not be stupid, personally, I have no idea. It is entirely possible that a man who has been prostrated to since he was a baby and has no apparatus to deal with those who disagree with him, might become ...angry? Ypour precious oracle above said that "Gyalwa Rinpoche became angry...." In such a situation. Everyone knows that the angry man makes many bad decisions and acts against the interest of all.

Maybe he is lost in a fantasy about Tibet and himself that he cannot find his way out of. Really, no-one here knows.

Why would he make so many contradictory statements and actions that make him look unstable? \
Maybe he is unstable.
Personally, that would be my guess, but again, who knows? No point trying to divine a hiugher purpose based on your own confused judgements (no insult intened, these judegements are common to all us Samsara types...)

7. If Kache Marpo has 'destroyed' lamas/ppl/practitioners in the past for breaking the samaya or polluting the yellow hat teachings, then why is Samdhong Rinpoche, Kashag, Kalons, Ministers, Kunga Tara, and even the Dalai Lama himself are spared? Unless there is a much bigger soup brewing.

If you take everytime you can't explain something as evidence of your theory, soon you will be living in a hall of mirrors. There are countless reasons this could be the case, for example Dorje Shugden ( and Kache MArpo) don't kill people. "What about the yellow book?" you ask? Perhaps it was meant for a certain reason. Perahps it was superstitious nonsense, who knows?  Not me, not you.

It seems to me the only soup that is brewing is the one you are making of your own ingredients, and it doesn't smell very appetizing to me....

8. Nechung is the one who requested Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen to arise as a uncommon Protector to protect Nagarjuna's view as embodied within Lama Tsongkapa's lineage only 350 years ago. Why would the same Nechung be talking the opposite. Unless there was a larger plan between Dorje Shugden, Dalai lama and Nechung. Seems like a hopeful fantasy? Well to many more, the idea of a dharma protector or Dorje Shugden themselves are fantasies made up by the Tibetan Lamas.

Oh dear.

Is it the same Nechung, tk? From where in the world would you derive information to that effect? Do you really feel confident that you know what Nechung thinks? maybe a local wordly spirit has entered the Nechung oracle, of which tere are apparently many, some more stable than others? Belief in Oracles and Tulkus in an uncritical way will be the end of Tibetan Buddhism in this world.

yes, it seems like a hopeful fantasy, very much so.

The idea that there are Protectors seems like a hopeful fantasy to some, I have no doubt, but the idea that something seems like a hopeful fantasy to someone somewhere has no bearing whatsoever as to wheter or not it is true. I'm sure there are people that believe that the moon landing is a hopeful fantasy. and yet, it happened, didin't it?

Tk, do you get my point? This is very very poor logic, and should embarass someone of your intelligence, evidneced elsewhere on this forum over and over again.

9.If Dorje Shugden is so powerful (which he is), why doesn't he do something to stop all this. Perhaps it is not time to 'stop' all this yet. In fact, Dorje Shugden is putting his followers through 'hell and back' (excuse me) and we have to just take it. Yes we will 'take' it. There has to be a much bigger game plan. Dorje Shugden takes the blame, Dalai lama works hard to make the Buddha Dharma grow while all the elite lamas and teachers are young.

Once again, this is a theory, not at all a fact, as you state above. Why doesn't he do something to stop this? Again, please stop tjhinking that Dharma protectors function like superman, flying in to save us. Why didn't the protectors stop Langdarma? Why didn't the protectors stop the moghuls from wiping out Buddhism in india? Why didn't the protectors stop the Chinese? why don't the protectors do my laundry? we seriously need to outgrow this type of thinking.

. If Dalai lama is so powerful (which he is), why doesn't he just do a binding ritual or fire puja himself and rid the planet/samsara of this horrible demented being called Jamgon Gyelway Tensung Gyelpo Dorje Shugden. And then stop spending so much time, money, heartaches, energy, resources to keep going against Dorje Shugden???!!! Just get rid of him ONCE AND FOR ALL. THE END. Because the Dalai Lama cannot destroy a being who has actualized the complete path of Guhyasamaja in both completion/generation stages or in other words a Buddha. Dalai lama cannot destroy Buddha Dorje Shugden who is one with Guhyasamaja and the 32 deities of his mandala are the same 32 deities as in Guhyasamaja's entourage.

now that actually makes some sense. He doesn't bind Dorje Shugden because he can't. IOt seems he believes he can bind the followers of Dorjke Shugden using his honeyed speech and his political power, and he will be right if many here have there way and get everyone to adopt this magical view that we are all pals nad that noone should disagree.

So for the bigger purpose, the Dalai Lama has TO PUT THE BLAME OF ALL THE ILLS OF TIBET'S MISFORTUNE ONTO DORJE SHUGDEN WHO IS STRONG ENOUGH TO SHOULDER THIS. Dorje Shugden plays the bad guy for now.

This is all politics, in fact no one blamed the DL for the loss of Tibet, his followers and most of the rest of the world are GaGa over this strange man. It is a false premise leading to a false conclusion, tailor-made to support an impoverished nicey-nice position. the intellignet would never go for this unless under the sway of some deep emotional need.

If it is blamed onto the Dalai Lama, it would spoil his reputation to spread dharma on the global scale which is what he is doing now. Planting seeds of dharma on the global scale, ripe for the young lamas to take over later as well as Dorje Shugden.

You vastly overestimate the Dalai Lama's ability to spread the Dharma, he only spreads tibetan politics. All of those who like the DL's teachings that I know are diletannte's, they have no actual teacher and no lineage.

The ills of Tibet are not Dalai lama or Dorje Shugden's fault, but the Tibetan ppls' own fault.


Sounds cliche, but it is true and easier to get through the storm with this way of thinking.

it does sound cliche, and I think this view directly contributes to the loss of Dharma in this world. No offense intended, I think most who hold this view are well-meaning, as I was when I believed this stuff. The Dalai Lama himself helped me out of that one.

10. If Dalai lama loses his reputation because he is the 'cause' for the loss of Tibet, then it would stain his reputation greatly and that would hinder to say the least, his promotion of the BuddhaDharma around the world. No lama of any tradition can match the skills, the persona, the knowledge, the title, and the charisma of Dalai lama to spread Buddhism so far and wide around the world.

Oh wow. Really? Ot my view, noone can match how skilfull the DL is at destroying Buddhism around the world. huh. I guess we see this one differently. I centainly agree that to superficial appeaances, the DL speads Dhama, but this dharma is contaminated by his abandonment and excoriation of lineage, so this dharma is stillborn, sterile, and inert.

11. Why can't the Tibetan Govt and various Monasteries destroy Dorje Shugden through binding rituals? Because they have tried and it shows the power of Dorje Shugden purposely. Hence to keep this power in mind, when later ppl will remember this power when they re-adopt Dorje Shugden's practice later. To leave a mark in ppl's minds that DORJE SHUGDEN CANNOT BE DEFEATED OR DESTROYED.

Yes, they are showing Dorje Shugden's power by destroying the spiritual and material lives of thousands and thousands of people. This view is deeply unkind and saddens my heart.

12. Why is Trijang Rinpoche allowed to practice Dorje Shugden if it harms the cause of Tibet and brings danger to the Dalai lama's life? Because it leaves a mark for the future, to bring up the point that Dorje Shugden does not hinder Tibet or Dalai Lama. These are small traces of hints left by the Dalai Lama for the SURVIVAL OF DORJE SHUGDEN. Someone has to take the blame. That is samsara.

Why did Trijang Chogtrul run away to Vermont and disrobe? The Dalai Lama only ever intended to let TR practice for a while, he states his intention to check again in the future (the Omniscient one gets out his doughballs aagin....) . I'm sure for the young lama this was ominous enough. Everyone can see wherer the DL is headed with this, why not you?

Traces of hints? You are surely grasping at straws. No need to did around in the dirt for traces when the truth fills the whole world.

13. Why does Dorje Shugden himself 'SIT ON THE FENCE?' Meaning, he says on one hand to respect and follow what the Dalai Lama says, but on the other hand, he told the Shar Gaden Monks that if their motivation for opening Shar Gaden was for the growth and preservation of the lineage, then it will be auspicious in the future. Doesn't that look contradictory. C'mon, which one is it Dorje Shugden? Clear it for us.  So if we were to follow what the Dalai Lama says, why open Shar Gaden and Serpom Monastery?  If we were to follow what Dorje Shugden says, then why be on this forum as he says to respect the Dalai lama always.

For you, your lama and lineage is Dorje Shugden. No need to search around the internet for scraps. the way you lay it out above, either we need to be against the opening of Shar G and Serpom N, or get off the forum.

Yet again, pointing out someones political mistakes is not necessarily respecting them. Even friends point out the flaws of friends as an act of love when they see that those flaws will destroy them. This is like that.

Should we open Shar Gaden which 'opposes' the Dalai Lama or should we listen to the Dalai lama and abandon Dorje Shugden's practice? Even the great Dorje Shugden sounds contradictory.

you have confused yourself. Do you really think Dorje shugden said "listen to the Dalai Lama and abandon the practice of Dorje Shugden?" You seem to be all tangled up in your hopes.

Why does Dorje Shugden continuously take trance and give advice even to those who do not give their allegiance up to Dalai lama while practicing Dorje Shugden at the same time? Doesn't that damage the samaya of the individual with Dorje Shugden or with the lama who initiated them into Dorje Shugden's practice? Whichever way you look at it, you damage the samaya with your guru or protector.

Focus less on oracles andf this will be less confusing for you.

Zong Rinpoche (previous), Dagom Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche,Geshe Tendar, current Trijang Rinpoche, current Zong Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten, current Pabongka, Gonsar Rinpoche, the oracle monks, Gangchen Rinpoche, Lama Yeshe, Geshe Tsultrim Gyeltsen, etc etc all took teachings from the 14th Dalai Lama, let's not forget, at once time or another. So if we have taken teachings from the above lamas, then 14th Dalai lama is also our lineage lama which we must respect. Logical?

not logical. What do you do when you have conflicting advice from your gurus? This happens. You need to follow your root guru, and in doing so, you keep all your comittments. If one were to follow your suggested 'logical' style of doing things, one would surely be forced to break samaya. This would render the Vajrayana meaningless.

Since we say the Dalai lama must respect our lineage lamas such as Pabongka, then we must also reverse the situation and respect the Dalai lama as our lineage lama. So either way, the system is set up for you to 'lose'. If that is the case, there must be a MUCH BIGGER PICTURE that current infractions with our lineage lamas can be repaired later FOR THE BIGGER PICTURE.

tk, one's respect for one's root guru, and the need to follow the DL's advice because some of our teachers (for example Trijang Rinpoche) were present at the DL's teachings are completely different. If my teacher got the empwerment of Heruka from trijang Rinpoche, who got it from Je Pabonkha etc etc, and the DL gave a teaching on the six perfections (that he initially received from Trijang Ripnpoche, incidentally), this does not make DL my lineage Lama, and can never in any way override my responsibility to keep my heart commitments to my spritual guide.

the fact that this 'contradiction' makes it seem to you that some mysterious thing is going on and your conclusion is that the DL is a good friend for slandering your lineage lamas makes me think you need to further your education.

After all with or without the Dalai Lama/Dorje Shugden current state affairs, we were doing a great job collecting negative karma, breaking commitments, and generally creating the causes for our personal samsaras to remain intact and strong on our own.

Ha ha ! Finally we agree unreservedly! i'm glad I have perservered!

Yes the Dalai lama does look like he contradicts himelf always. But so does Dorje Shugden.
only according to the unreliable.

Yes, it is nearly cooked.

It seems I've lost my appetite.

It is best to have respect for the Dalai lama and keep our practices towards Dorje Shugden steady.

Whatever the case, if we go to Dalai lama's camp or we go to Dorje Shugden's camp, we go against lineage lamas.

Utterly false as shown above. How could you break samaya by practicing the protector of your guru's words?!?

So best is to keep an equilibrium by thinking things out logically, following the law of cause and effect, engage in our practices to develop attainments within our continuum. With the great attainment we win freedom totally and no disprespect intended, but we won't need Dalai Lama, Buddha, Dorje Shugden or anyone. And that is their original intention.

lovely. I think we all agree there.

I have stated my thoughts at this time and I SINCERLEY HOPE THIS WILL BRING PEACE/UNDERSTANDING TO THE MANY PRACTITONERS THAT VISIT THIS GREAT WEBSITE. With my thoughts, I wish to offend no one, or be right. It is just my attempt to think and reason things out at this time when no many other options are available. Again, I will NEVER GIVE UP MY DORJE SHUGDEN COMMITMENTS AND TO THE LAMAS WHO GAVE ME THE PRACTICES.

yeah! me too!

Nor will I demean and hate His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I will not hate those against Dorje Shugden and forgive them.

I won't either, unless demeaning the DL means disagreeing with him either publically or privately, when he says harmful an hurtful and destructive things. In that case, no one is immune from criticism.

Much success to all,


Thanks, same to you! :)


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« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2010, 08:47:31 AM »

Look how real Dorje Shugden is as a Buddha. Even from all the bad rumours which has been spread about him, his only concern is for others. Hence, his advice for the people not to speak ill of the Dalai Lama speaks volumes of how great a being he is!

Homage to Lord Shugden


I have many marooned clothed friends in Gaden and many senior monk friends. The senior monks are already now aged into their 70's related that Trijang Rinpoche mentioned not to lose faith in DL and DS because in the future it would seem as if they are against eachother. They are there in Gaden with Trijang Rinpoche, when Trijang Rinpoche said this.

Time it was said: Late 1970's after composing His volume on Dorje Shugden in order to preserve the lineage after He has passed away.

Place it was said: Gaden Monastery.

Audience: close students who are senior monks now in Gaden. Intended time for the advice to be remembered is after the death of Trijang Rinpoche. And if we need clarification after Trijang Rinpoche has passed away, we should refer to the volume Trijang Rinpoche has so kindly written for us to preserve Dorje Shugden's lineage. This volume is scanned in and available on this website (thank you so much webmaster).

Time it is referred to: Trijang Rinpoche meant this prophecy to be fulfilled after his death. He has written this volume to preserve Dorje Shugden's lineage as it would seem that DL and DS will be at odds after his death and he would not be around to clarify. So he leaves this volume on Dorje Shugden written by himself for the future generations. Dalai Lama was aware he is composing this volume. Trijang Rinpoche mentioned during that time in the future not to lose faith in both DL and DS.

To add to that, when the ban first happened in the 90's, Dulzin took trance of Choyang Kuten in Gaden. The audience were Jangtze monks who asked Dulzin to do something regarding the ban. Dulzin replied, to be steadfast in their practice simultaneously not to say negative words against Dalai Lama. That in the future, the ppl who gave up their Ds practice and berated Ds WILL COME TO DULZIN AND APOLOGIZE.

Both the information above was passed to me by senior monks of Gaden.

Harry Nephew

Love Shugden, Love all Lamas, Heal the World!


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« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2010, 10:09:25 AM »

Dear TK, Sorry for answering here your last message addressed to me, I don´t even know where to find it since the rythm of posts has been so intense in the last hours.
Just to tell you that of course I would like to share with you a cup of tea and have a good laugh. I thank you for your sympathy, but when I spoke of shame I didn´t mean that I suffered any personal shame myself, on the contrary, I´ve always felt very happy and saintly "proud" of belonging to this holy lineage; rather that one experiences a type of shame for the person who does something wrong, particularly if one has to speak about it.
I realize that I don´t have a relaxed attitude when I see Dharma being destroyed. And for me there's no way to help in any way anybody who is destroying Dharma, let alone finding justifications that make things worse, confusing innocent people about the most basic of the Buddha´s actions, which is to show beings what to keep and what to abandon.
No matter what, I do understand the reasons others might have for doing what you and the Noobs are doing: to twist Dharma principles to justify the Dalai Lama´s actions. I understand the reasons, particularly in your case and the case of Tibetans, I understand that you want to preserve the icon of your identity as a nation.
We Westerners have an old way of dealing with these type of things: we distinguish between attacking a tenet, an action, an attitude, and attacking a person. We don´t favor attacking the person, it´s called to go "ad hominem", to go against the human being. But we do retain the right to not agreeing and to attacking the actions. Difficult, but I find it quite wise.
Obviously many people do not act according to this pattern, thus the Noobs preaching against our supposed hatred against the Dalai Lama. Or some people actually expressing hatred against him. For the most part, the people in this website do not hate the Dalai Lama but do not agree with his actions. And his actions entailing the persecution of others, well, we have not only the right but the moral obligation to help the persecuted.
So we find it quite strange that a bunch of self proclaimed practitioners of the Protector come here as a group and try to destroy our actions aimed to protect the victims of the Dalai Lama. We might try to understand their intentions and even accept that they might be good intentions. But we disagree with their purpose.
This having been said, it´s clear that there is no debate possible. I don´t see in the new people (I think Noobs is short for newbies) the slightest intention of having a debate. A debate follows the path of reasoning. They are following, according to what Ensapa said, the instructions of a Lama. The path of faith in this case seems to preclude reasoning. So there is no way we can debate. 
I have great appreciation for your kindness, TK. Thank you.


Dear A Friend,

I fold my hands to you and I thank you for your beautiful message which I appreciate and it has touched my heart deeply.

Let me make some things clear to you please:

1. You have every right to be angry with the tenants and policies of the Dalai lama. What happened is very painful and very shocking. It hurts me too. I believe in the prophecy of Trijang Rinpoche that Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are working hand in hand, but that DOES NOT MEAN I DON'T FEEL DISTRESSED, IN PAIN, HAVE ANGUISH, CONFUSED AND FEEL ISOLATED. I know Dorje Shugden is a Bodhisattva and his strength not to retaliate is what shows me who he is. My faith in him grows even more.  I feel everything you and everyone else feels because I am just an ordinary person who met the Dharma and trying my best to practice.

2. You have every right to express your views and I do read them and contemplate it very much. I don't think negatively of your views nor feel bad about reading them. I do not judge your views, but take intense interest to learn more.

3. Other ppl on this forum are feeling what you feel is perfectly natural and alright. I pray that this horrible ban can be changed or just disappear. All of you/us do not deserve this.

4. I have no ill feelings towards you and other ppl who express their anger toward Dalai Lama. I understand deeply how you feel. Betrayal.

5.I am not on this forum to in ANY WAY INSULT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. Why? Because we are the same lineage, same practice, same lamas, same protector. I am on your side. I have always been on your side and will remain that way. We have the same purpose.

6. I am not posting things to justify what the Dalai lama is doing. I am offering another view to perhaps help heal the pain, betrayal and disappointment. My posts are not meant to counter you or others who feel like you in any way. I do not wish to further the hurt you, or berate you or put your feelings down. You do not deserve that for all that you have gone through. Dharma is not easy in the world today to practice.

7. Whatever I post is not following the instructions of my lamas, but from my own dedication to my lamas and Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden has helped me so much. I have many stories. It disturbs me deeply when Bodhisattvas like Pabongka, Trijang, Gangchen, Yongyal, Gonsar, Zong, Zemey, Dagom Rinpoches and other great beings are dragged through the dirt. I do not approve of that at all. I will counter that at every stop, but in a way that makes the anti-shugden ppl's minds calm down also in the end or die trying.

8. I will follow all of you in any way except the slander of the Dalai lama. Why? Dorje Shugden in trance through the oracles have advised us not to do so. It is on that reason and that reason alone I will not. I love Dorje Shugden tremendously. I can give my life for him if need be. So I will follow his instructions as long as I breathe. That is my reason and that is ok for me. I do not speak for anyone else because there are many factors involved, I understand.

9. I salute you and the others' strength, tenacity, stability, and perserverance in the Dharma during these difficult times. I fold my hands and bow to you and all of you humbly. Please never stop working, foruming, posting, writing, speaking for the cause of Dorje Shugden. He will prevail by the power of truth, karma and resultant karma in the near future. We will not be like the poor israelites who wandered in the Sinai desert for many more decades after recieving the covenant (ten commandments) from Moses on Mt Sinai.

10. I understand completely that you are distinguishing between attacking a tenant, an action, an attitude and the person. I understand you are attacking the actions. I fully understand and MAY I PLEASE SAY THAT I APPRECIATE THAT VERY VERY VERY MUCH AND THANK YOU AND ALL THE OTHERS. Really thank you.

Please forgive me if I have offended you of which I have no intention to from the beginning. I very much look forward to the forum daily/or as much as possible although I do have a busy schedule, but doing the forum is like doing my sadhanas/commitments daily. I feel something is missing if I don't.

I look forward to meeting all of you on the forum for many years into the future and learn so much from all your posts daily.

I truly feel indebted to all of you to spend so much time for our cause.

A friend, again, I would like to thank you for your beautiful post to me. I understand what you have written and appreciate it. Please keep in mind, whatever I will further write in the future is NEVER TO ATTACK YOU OR ANYONE, PLEASE REMEMBER THAT. It is not to attack your work nor put you or anyone down. I cannot do such a thing. It is beyond me.

I will write in my style for berating of Dorje Shugden to stop with my views and you will write for the same reasons with your views. Both our views are necessary as the audience is vast. Minds are attracted to different styles and approaches. You are not wrong. Your intent is excellent. Your motivation is excellent and your efforts will bear results.

Thank you again, I offer incense, serkym, and a candle to Dorje Shugden for you today. I request Dorje Shugden to bless you further for longer life, further growth and further realizations.

Much sincerity,


P.S. I will post this at other other threads where we have communicated so you can access it easily.


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« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2010, 12:09:17 AM »
This topic resounds with excellent comments and observations.
I find it exceptional when people speak from their hearts supported by their intellect brings clarity to all if we simply mirror Je T'SongKhapa and his advice to Friends.

 The Young Tulkus and Lamas join the host of Qualified Teachers, some I suspect speak with us on the forum.
Generating Love 24/7 without any effort. What a wonderment to experience in our daily moments.
Energy attract energy and this forum is but a stepping stone to Wisdom's Gate.
  I am certain there is a Big Picture. Perhaps the courts will act as a catalyst?
Perhaps something else? I just have a hard time with all of this ending with a HoHo HO! I was just fooling!
We know how we think this looks, the question is can we convince them that they are the ones who are playing the fools and will be found out somehow or another. Truth is like water and finds a way out!
 I know I am not the one who is lying.I hate to point fingers, but I am fairly certain it is they or he that misrepresents the facts and places demands for others to do as he says.
 So time is not on his side, there must be a resolution in this life time, it must end. This has gone on long enough and now it time for it to end once and for all.
With folded hands, I implore the Dalia Lama to cease and desist persecting the Dorje Shugden People.

 "with folded hands",now this was a verse that touched my heart and simply showed me another way to reach across the digital waves to subdue the storms of my samsaric mind, and that brings the yawl of this majestic Sloop of Mind safely into port. Yes! words have profound affect and we all need to use them wisely.thanks tk,afriend,beggar and Trinley,EM,Mohani and on and on and all of you have taught me alot. It has made me a calmer person, you should have seen me before! and I smile more everyday at strangers on the street.
Most importantly,I smile at me.
tk, I'll try harder not to offend anyone with my speech.
I have learned so very much here over the last few years from others solid advice and words of compassion,and patience that has been shown is worth more than all the gold weight in the world.
I've only briefly visited  with two other dharma friends in ten years and longer than that since I've lived with the Kunten Lama.I might be a little rusty, things get dusty here in the Western Deserts along the Wasatch Mountains.Prostrating before monumental mountains of Red Standstone visualizing Vajrayoginni etched within the peaks and valleys of her redstone mountains crowned with Snow Caps is a beauty to behold. Truly one ascends to the Dakinni Heavens In Southern Utah. Maybe Practioners will come and  share the Sangha.This would be nice to have friends in the Wilderness. I miss others and laughter and humour of smiling faces.But the Protector put me where I could find Peace.So I exiled myself to the Western Deserts and made a new me.

8. I will follow all of you in any way except the slander of the Dalai lama. Why? Dorje Shugden in trance through the oracles have advised us not to do so. It is on that reason and that reason alone I will not. I love Dorje Shugden tremendously. I can give my life for him if need be. So I will follow his instructions as long as I breathe. That is my reason and that is ok for me. I do not speak for anyone else because there are many factors involved, I understand. "

"May the great King Dorje Shugden and his four powerful emanations peaceful, increasing, controlling and wrathful, bring All of you the greatest success because your hearts and motivation are pure for the Dharma.. ."
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 05:46:11 AM by Lhakpa Gyaltshen »

a friend

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« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2010, 04:31:20 AM »

Dearest dearest TK,
Your kindness is one of the best things that have found their way to this Forum.
Believe me, I don´t know directly of any sayings in trance about not slander the Dalai Lama, but I totally agree with those sayings. I´ve always wanted to keep silent about what the DL did. I´ve started writing against it because of the dangers that our monks and many lay people endured and you have to agree with me that any follower of the Protector has in some degree the characteristic of a protector and that´s what happened, we have wanted to protect those who were defenseless in the world against one who is tremendously powerful.
At least and thank heavens I never had to defend myself, but others.
Also I need to defend the Dharma when I see it being distorted, that´s the reason I keep writing against any praise explicit or implicit of what was done against our common Guru Trijang Rinpoche and our Deity. I write to defend Dharma from misunderstandings, not to slander the Dalai Lama. It´s very important to do this for the future generations, we cannot allow them --the still unborn-- to receive as truth or as a good thing what is not.
I sincerely pray for the Dalai Lama´s long life and for a change in his mind before he leaves this world.

I´m always happy to have your voice around.


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« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2011, 04:34:02 AM »
Until today, Dorje Shugden and his practitioners still do not have freedom to practice. I can accept that no matter what religion or faith that's out there, not everyone will agree and accept and it is fine.

Many are oppressed for what they believe. Not only being oppressed but their personal freedom and opportunities are being taken away so that Dorje Shugden practitioners give up their practices. I'm sure many of us have thought of why is Dorje Shugden the bad guy!

In this forum, the general position is that we do not focus on bashing any lamas. But strive to learn and see what is going on in an educated manner. This thread has been around a while but the points raised in here may be of interest to the many inquisitive minds who has joined this forum in the past year or so. 

Do take a read and have a great weekend!


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« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2012, 08:27:31 PM »
Well, who could forget this post! Was doing a search for something else and came upon this. I thought I'd revive it for the benefit of new people.

Re-reading it a few years later, it feels good to read it again and have a rethink about the points raised by TK - and the very entertaining subsequent discussions on the subject. My question, this time round is why there even has to be a bad guy? What is there was no chakra at all? Would it not have worked if the Dalai Lama simply promoted the practice of Dorje Shugden as strongly as he has done for Kalachakra? Now, all he needs to do is to show up to give a Kalachakra initiation, and the venues are packed to the brim by people wishing for the practice. Kalachaka's tantra requires initiation and heavier commitments. Then the Buddhas remain at the level of Buddhas (as opposed to being called a spirit, as Shugden is often referred to now) and people feel that they are connecting to something good.

Think time: Do you really think the Dalai Lama would have been as successful in bringing the name Dorje Shugden out to the world if he left him as a good guy??


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« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2012, 04:43:21 AM »
Well, who could forget this post! Was doing a search for something else and came upon this. I thought I'd revive it for the benefit of new people.

Re-reading it a few years later, it feels good to read it again and have a rethink about the points raised by TK - and the very entertaining subsequent discussions on the subject. My question, this time round is why there even has to be a bad guy? What is there was no chakra at all? Would it not have worked if the Dalai Lama simply promoted the practice of Dorje Shugden as strongly as he has done for Kalachakra? Now, all he needs to do is to show up to give a Kalachakra initiation, and the venues are packed to the brim by people wishing for the practice. Kalachaka's tantra requires initiation and heavier commitments. Then the Buddhas remain at the level of Buddhas (as opposed to being called a spirit, as Shugden is often referred to now) and people feel that they are connecting to something good.

Think time: Do you really think the Dalai Lama would have been as successful in bringing the name Dorje Shugden out to the world if he left him as a good guy??

re-reading this post again made me realize how true of what did TK wrote a few years back, especially with the recent incident of the Dalai Lama giggling as he said that there were more and more Dorje Shugden practitioners from Singapore and Hong Kong. And also, the inception of Shar Ganden and Serpom who fearlessly continues to practice Dorje Shugden despite the ban and discriminations. they remain steadfast in their practice and did not give up in such dark times. Are these not the hallmark of a practitioner that will gain attainments? is this not the mark of the practitioner that will definitely perserve the lineage's integrity irregardless of what will happen? It is practitioners like these that will spread the Buddha's teachings fearlessly and without giving up.

The ban itself has raised so much more questions than answers and international media always pairs the story of Dorje Shugden with the Dalai Lama these days. Reporters wishing to dig dirt on the Dalai Lama bumps into the ban and spreads that around and people of these days are more attracted to gossip and negative news rather than to positive ones. To me, it is very clear where this is heading to and it will be soon before the ban is lifted as more and more people are aware of Dorje Shugden's existence and story.


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« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2012, 08:25:57 PM »
The ban on Dorje Shugden remains the lousiest ban at all times in terms of the results of reducing or stopping people from doing the practice anymore. If the Dalai Lama was in ernest like the spanish inquisition I think he would have actually drive much more people and monks into tremendous hardships and also to give up the practice. As the ban progressed the Practitioners who are loyal to their lamas and Dorje Shugden found ways to keep their practices and make themselves heard.

What is the biggest Buddhist organisation in the world now ? NKT and what does NKT support dorje shugden.  And the dharma is being spread in the western countries like wildfire as a result of the protector. I like what Ensapa said about reporters trying to dig up stuff about the HHDL they eventually encounter Dorje Shugden , how skillful! 


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« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2012, 08:52:56 AM »
I folded my hands to all Lama that encourage us to learn with their own skillful means.  Even by sacrificing themselves, their reputations, etc. for the growth of Dharma.

If the purpose of implementing the ban at all is to do lazarus on Dorje Shugden, we should keep pointing out the obvious so these facts are imprinted in people’s mind:
•   The ban is based on unfounded arguments that DS is a spirit and shorten the life of HHDL.   How could that be?? It is stated clearly in Trijang Rinpoche’s biography that DS protects HHDL when he was fleeing Tibet and attempted murder by the Chinese.  DS protected HHDL.
•   The argument that DS is a spirit and the protest against the ban is about the issue of spirit worship and not religious persecution.   DS is the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen, an exceptional being that came from long line of incarnation of distinguished Lama including Sakya Pandita and Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen.  These beings are enlightened.  So to say DS is a spirit is the same as stating that degeneration from enlightened mind is possible.
•   DS cannot be destroyed by rituals performed by High Lamas.  The rituals to destroy DS have been performed since the time of 5th Dalai Lama.  DS still cannot be destroyed.  How many more rituals and how many more centuries should lapse until we believe the obvious that DS is not a spirit and the ban against DS is not the question of spirit worship.

If we do not reiterate these facts over and over again, the purpose of the ban and the bigger pictures to promote DS would not have been served.  If we resorted in passivity and being politically correct and comfortable with the fact and adopt the attitude to let the ban ran its course because HHDL has a bigger picture, even “the bigger picture” mentioned above will not be served.

There were times when I stated the above arguments, I received criticism that I have adopted a wrong view against a very highly respected Lama, HHDL, so to say.  But I really respected HHDL, I respected Trijang Rinpoche, and I believe in my own Lama.  I believe that to speed up the removal of the ban, the facts should be put forth and we should continue to serve “the bigger picture” to promote DS and to argue for the removal of the ban.


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« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2012, 03:48:33 PM »
This is a fantastic post. Thank you TK. This is should made compulsory reading for all practicing Tibetan Buddhism so that all can truly understand the deep and compassionate mind of the Bodhisattvas.

I always had a nagging question in my mind i.e. why the ban on Dorje Shugden was called literally quite out of the sudden. This post made me think and my conclusion was that the Tibetans lost their country because of their collective karma but many would not agree to that. Instead they looked to HHDL to "do something" and pull a rabbit out of the hat. By the 90's it may have become clear to HHDL that the karma for the Tibetans to get their country back was over and a new set approach has to be taken.

The Dalai Lama's most important role was to spread the Buddhdharma throughout the world and HH had to be credible to everyone, especially to those who do not full understand the dynamics of group karma. There had to be a conjured up reason that everyone would understand. There had to be a scapegoat. And Dorje Shugden is not only able to shoulder this blame, it was most practical for Dorje Shugden to be the scapegoat. This is because HHDL  must go on to be the authority and the ambassador of Buddhism and to spread it all over the world. Which he has.  Nechung was and is still the State Oracle and it made no sense to undermine the divinity of Nechung.

Dorje Shugden was the only choice.

But right from the beginning and throughout, HHDL and even Nechung have made very confusing and contradictory statements about Dorje Shugden and in so doing, have very skillfully create the incentive for people to look further into Dorje Shugden. In this way, not only has the name of Dorje Shugden spread but increasingly people have come to see how baseless the accusations against Dorje Shugden are. Against the backdrop of all these persecutions and confusion, we see Dorje Shugden as truly the enlightened being he is.

It has been two years since this thread was started and HHDL has gone on to achieve tremendous milestones for Buddhism. Dorje Shugden's practice has also grown around the world. When we focus on the results and outcomes, instead of the smoke and mirrors we see the enlightened beings at work spreading the dharma.


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« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2012, 03:37:17 PM »
To me, the only reason why he has to be the 'bad' guy is very simple: there was a need for a good guy/bad guy role in order to benefit sentient beings. Most people in our current generation are more familiar with the christian duality of God and Satan, so perhaps, there is a need for Buddhism to do this in order to appear more presentable to these people and if a worldly protector is chosen to play this role, that protector may turn  against Buddhism as he/she cannot handle the pressure. An enlightened Dharma protector that has not much affinity with us, once banned would stay that way for a long time. Hence, Dorje Shugden is the most suitable as he can withstand the pressure.

Dondrup Shugden

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« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2015, 10:37:29 AM »
Of course Dorje Shugden is not the bad guy.  This is a very interesting article to read and to learn from.