Author Topic: When was the last time these tests were carried out on Nechung Oracle?  (Read 7850 times)

Ringo Starr

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Excerpt from
In Exile from the Land of Snows
By John F. Avedon

From: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/spirits-in-dharamsala/

"Once a year Tibet ’s 120 district governors collected offerings from the mediums in their region on behalf of their spirits. Forwarded to Nechung Monastery, they were given, on the third day of the New Year, in a colossal tsog or offering ritual, to Pehar Gyalpo.

After the rite, Nechung’s monks moved to the center of Lhasa for the oracle’s appearance in Tibet’s most spectacular celebration, the three-week-long Monlam Chenmo or Great Prayer Festival. At this time, over 20,000 monks, joined by thousands of pilgrims from all across the country, crowded into the capital.

The Nechung medium was required to undergo trance on at least ten separate occasions. In the most dramatic event, following days of parades, athletic meetings and religious convocations, he marched in a regal procession south of the city to a field below the Potala, where, wielding his bow, sword and trident before a bonfire, he ritually dispersed the negative spirits of the old year.

The need to thoroughly test the authenticity of the Nechung kuden had, for centuries, been a critical concern of the Tibetan government. As the most delicate policies of state, both domestic and foreign, were involved with the oracle, the possibility of a leak, either from a malignant spirit taking possession (and subsequently relating information via another medium) or from the medium himself retaining some trace memory of the trance, was ever-present. So, too, was the danger of a garbled or mistaken transmission.

To protect against the latter, the level of the medium’s trance was closely observed, a complete possession, inducing unconsciousness, being the ideal state. Such possession could occur only if the 72,000 psychic channels upon which, according to tantric theory, consciousness is mounted in the human body were cleared of all obstructions.

In such a case trance would be undergone swiftly, continuing without fluctuations or other irregularities. Though Lobsang Jigme’s trances revealed him to be very pure “vessel,” the next task, that of checking whether or not if it was in fact Dorje Drakden who possessed him, required, following preliminary observations, three levels of tests.

Initially, four signs of Dorje Drakden’s immense power were sought: swelling of the medium’s body up to two inches, effortless support of the heavy costume, ringing of the golden bells on the helmet’s top and shuddering of the mirror on the chest from the increased heartbeat.

The character of the possessing spirit was then observed. Dorje Drakden’s cham was particular to him, as was the fact that his fierce, prideful attitude gave way to humility only if the Dalai Lama, his picture or an article of his clothing was present. Otherwise the spirit minister demanded complete subjugation from all those in attendance. With these factors present, three categories of tests, known as outer, inner and secret, were undertaken.

In the other test, the medium was presented during trance with sealed boxes and requested to name their contents. This exam was considered easy, as the majority of spirits were believed to possess a minor form of clairvoyance.

It was followed by the inner test, in which the possessing spirit was requested to quote verbatim prophecies given by the Protector on specific dates in the past. With hundreds of prophecies on file, all imparted in Dorje Drakden’s poetic, often cryptic style, this test was virtually impossible to pass if the Protector himself was not present.

The two tests comprising the secret category, however, were believed definitive. Prior to the trance the kuden’s breath was checked to make sure that it had no odour. During trance it was examined again. If Dorje Drakden was in possession, the breath would invariably have a strong scent, similar to that of alcohol but described as actually being that of nectar.

At the moment Padmasambhava had converted the Five Kings, in the form of the eight-year-old novice, to the Dharma, he had anointed the child’s tongue with a few drops of nectar. Its odour was maintained by the spirit as a sign that his vows were being upheld. While exacting allegiance, Padmasambhava had placed the blazing tip of his dorje on the head of the kneeling child.

As the trance ends and the thickly padded helmet is quickly removed before the kuden chokes, Dorje Drakden’s possession is revealed in the well-defined imprint of a dorje, clearly visible for a matter of minutes, on the crown of the medium’s head.

kris

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Re: When was the last time these tests were carried out on Nechung Oracle?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2016, 02:56:10 AM »
From my Tibetan friends, many Tibetans do not really believe Nechung because His prediction often is not correct. For example, Nechung has predicted several times that Tibetan in Exile is going back to Tibet but it never happened. Many of them don't even want the blessed rice by Nechung. Most only want blessed rice by Dorje Shugden as they said those blessed by Nechung has no power.

They further told us that many suspected that it is actually not Nechung who enters the oracles. Instead, it is another deity who enters the oracle. This article is really interesting to see how things will turn out. Will they find a way to confirm the deity who enter the oracle? What if they find out it is not Nechung? How would be the people's reaction?

grandmapele

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Re: When was the last time these tests were carried out on Nechung Oracle?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2016, 10:31:34 AM »
Do they actually carry out these tests? It surely would be interesting to see the outcome of these tests. Wonder when was the last time they held the tests for Nechung. I wonder if the general populace knows about this. If the monks has their concerns as to device the tests, surely they must be held to authentic the oracle as prescribed. otherwise why even have these tests in the first place?


DharmaDefender

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Re: When was the last time these tests were carried out on Nechung Oracle?
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2016, 05:26:21 PM »
From my Tibetan friends, many Tibetans do not really believe Nechung because His prediction often is not correct. For example, Nechung has predicted several times that Tibetan in Exile is going back to Tibet but it never happened. Many of them don't even want the blessed rice by Nechung. Most only want blessed rice by Dorje Shugden as they said those blessed by Nechung has no power.

They further told us that many suspected that it is actually not Nechung who enters the oracles. Instead, it is another deity who enters the oracle. This article is really interesting to see how things will turn out. Will they find a way to confirm the deity who enter the oracle? What if they find out it is not Nechung? How would be the people's reaction?

Interesting you say that because my mates tell me they suspect theres nothing entering the oracle. The oracles just being manipulated to say whatever the leadership wants. Its pretty much a foolproof method for them to get away with whatever they want because if the predictions turn out to be incorrect and cause damage, who are the Tibetan people going to blame? A god? Hes not tangible. And they cant blame the oracle since hes only the medium and not responsible for what the deity says. And the leadership? They cant be blamed because they were only following what the god wants.

Rather crafty if you ask me!

SabS

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Re: When was the last time these tests were carried out on Nechung Oracle?
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2016, 10:53:51 PM »
Thank you Ringo Starr for sharing such an interesting article on testing of the authenticity of Nechung himself entering the Oracle during trance. It would make sense for the tests as many important matters are carried through from the answers given by Nechung. So if a false entity was to enter the Oracle, then the answers could lead to disaster. It had been said the 13th Dalai Lama was actually poisoned by Nechung through wrongly prescribing herbal medication for his illness. Then later Nechung had advised the 14th Dalai Lama to remain in Tibet during the Chinese invasion. If the 14th Dalai Lama had stayed, he would probably had been imprisoned or killed along with so many of the high Lamas who could have been seen as threats to the Chinese government. Then the world wouldn't have had such a spread of Tibetan Buddhism of pure lineage to be taught and practiced by these high Lamas. Actually I had heard both theory that another spirit had been entering the Nechung Oracle to exact revenge for his wrongful death at the hands of the Dalai Lama's ministers and also that Nechung Oracle taking false trances at the bidding of either the Dalai Lama or the Ministers. But I guess until they carry out the authentication tests on the Oracle under trance of Nechung, we can never be sure. But it sure doesn't make sense that Nechung who had brought about the rise of Dorje Shugden should turn against him. I do hope the Tibetans will demand the testing to be done to settle the rumours once and for all.

Ringo Starr

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Re: When was the last time these tests were carried out on Nechung Oracle?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2017, 03:55:06 PM »
Ever wondered why the "state oracle" of Tibet, Nechung, does not take trance in Tibet anymore but Dorje Shugden does? (Please correct me if I'm wrong)

From the point of view of Tibetans in Tibet, Nechung has abandoned them but Dorje Shugden is with them.

grandmapele

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Re: When was the last time these tests were carried out on Nechung Oracle?
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2017, 05:29:31 AM »
@Ringo Starr, why do you think that is so? That Nechung has abandoned the Tibetans but not Dorje Shugden, whose practiced are being maligned today.

Is it because Nechung, after having being Dharma Protector for so long, has realized enlightenment and thus has made way for another Protector to take over? Or is it that his oath to Guru Rinpoche to protect the dharma in general has expired and he is thus unavailable to the Tibetans now?

Sure would be interesting to know.

Harold Musetescu

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Re: When was the last time these tests were carried out on Nechung Oracle?
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2017, 04:19:06 PM »
The previous Gadong Oracle who  was the 2nd highest State Oracle was never tested for his position by the 14th Dalai Lama. Please read this article which I previously posted.


Harold Musetescu
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The previous Gadong Oracle was never a true Oracle

« on: June 26, 2016, 10:23:20 PM »

Quote
The Gadong Oracle position is listed as the second highest position within the rankings of Official State Oracles of Tibet. The Nechung is first and the Lamo Tsangpa is the third highest position.

The Gadong Oracle is possessed in trance by the Dharmapala "Shinjachen" who guards the "Southern Gate" in the Pehar mandala.

The previous Gadong Oracle, Tenzin Wangdak was officially enthroned by the Dalai Lama in 1986 and he passed away in 2015. His was a family lineage of Oracles passed down from father to son.

For 19 years he held this position but he had only one problem and that he never "Spoke" while in trance. That's right "Shinjachen" was never able to speak through this Dalai Lama chosen "Oracle".
Tenzin Wangdak even admits this in the DVD, "Oracles, Reflection of Self". You can find in on youtube. Go to the 29:30 minute marker and you can see him stated that "Shinjachen" has never spoken through him while he was in a so called trance.

H.E. Tsem Rinpoche did a youtube video titled "Taking Trances" which he went into great detail about the selection,training and testing for Oracles. The final testing is done by a qualified Lama who tests the candidate while in "Trance". He is tested to see if the deity he is taking trance of is a true deity or a demon.
It is only after passing all the requirements of retreats and formal testing that the person is given an official certificate signed and sealed by the Lama.

It appears that the previous Gadong Oracle would have failed every test if a proper testing procedure had been done. How could the Dalai Lama have chosen Tenzin Wangdak and official enthroned him as the second highest State Oracle of Tibet? Tenzin Wangdak had stated that "Shinjachen" never spoke thorough him once.
So how and why did the Dalai Lama chose this man?

What does this say about the Dalai Lama? Is this another example of the Dalai Lama making another official mistake in judgement?

Harold Musetescu

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Re: When was the last time these tests were carried out on Nechung Oracle?
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2017, 04:24:01 PM »
This a previous post of mine about the Lamo Tsangpa Oracle for your consideration.

» Was the previous Lamo Tsangpa Oracle corrupt?
     
Author Topic: Was the previous Lamo Tsangpa Oracle corrupt?  (Read 350 times)

Harold Musetescu
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Was the previous Lamo Tsangpa Oracle corrupt?
« on: June 27, 2016, 09:00:57 AM »

Quote

The Lamo Tsangpa Oracle holds the third highest position in the world of Tibetan State Oracles. The  Lamo Tsangpa Oracle's position is a family held position that is passed from father to son. It is called "Lamo" since the original Oracle came from "Lamo" monastery in Tibet.

The previous Lamo Tsangpa was Tsewang Namgyal who held this position from 1986 until his death in 2003. He was official enthroned by the 14th Dalai Lama to this position in 1986. Originally the same problem with the Gadong Oracle existed with the Lamo Tsangpa Oracle in 1986. The Lamo Tsangpa Oracle did not "Speak" while in trance. In the DVD titled "Oracles - Reflections of Self" it clearly showed that the Lamo Tsangpa Oracle originally did not speak. Go to the 29:30 minute mark and you will be both the Gadong Oracle and the eldest son of Tsewang Namgyal both state that he did not originally speak. Even the producer of the film states this fact on numerous occasions.

This is now twice the 14th Dalai Lama chose a State Oracle that did not speak. The Gadong Oracle from 1987 until his death in 2015 (29 years) never spoke. Tsem Rinpoche did an excellent piece on youtube about Oracles titled "Taking Trances". He tells us of how a candidate is first chosen, the numerous retreats he must take and the testing done to prove that a proper Deity and not a demon has entered the candidate. Only after you successfully pass all these tests does the Lama that is testing you declare in an official certificate that you are an "Oracle". When the Dalai Lama enthroned Tsewang Namgyal in 1986 it appears he would have "Failed" a proper test by a Lama.

I do not believe that the dharmapala "Tsangpa Karpo" ever entered Tsewang Namgyal. That he was a "PAIDED" puppet of the 14th Dalai Lama. You can check this out on this very website by typing "Very good commentary by TK" into the search box. You will find an article written on February 2010 about two official announcements done in 1995 by the Lamo Tsangpo Oracle condemning Dorje Shugden. The first announcement was done on May 14, 1995 at the request of the "Private Office of His Holiness the Dalai Lama". The second announcement was done on June 14, 1995 at the request of the Cabinet of the "Tibetan Government in Exile". Both these announcements were anti Dorje Shugden and were done a mere year before the official "BAN" on the practice of Dorje Shugden.

I do not believe that these trances were real but FAKED. You may know that "Tsangpa Karpo" is a dharmapala but you may not know that he is the peaceful emanation of "Setrap". Yes that's correct, "Setrap" is the wrathful emanation of "Trangpa Karpo". It was "Setrap" who saved Dorje Shugden from death from Mindrolling Rinpoche's  "Fire Puja". It was also "Setrap" who guided Dorje Shugden to Sakya Trizin who enthroned him as a dharmapala. Sakya Trizin made Dorje Shugden a member of the "Gyalpo Sum" the three "King Spirits" that includes Setrap and Kache Marpo. So could someone explain to me how the wrathful emanation of "Tsangpa Karpo", Setrap saves Dorje Shugden only to have the Oracle of the peaceful emanation of "Condemn" him? It is not logical and I believe it can only mean one thing and these were totally faked trances.

Tsewang Namgyal came to India from Tibet in 1986. While growing up in Tibet he worked as a musician for the Chinese government until he retired. He came to India with this family on holidays (?) in 1986 and at the request from the Dalai Lama he did not return. He remained in India and became a refugee. He gave up his state pension and his home and belongs in China. He was now penny less with a wife and family to feed. How was he to feed and cloth his family? That was easy, the Dalai Lama and the then Tibetan Government in Exile made him a "Paid Employee". He was now the "Lamo Tsangpa" Oracle with all the rights and privileges that go with the title of "State Oracle". As long as he continued to please the Dalai Lama he would be a State Oracle and if did not please the Dalai Lama he would be FIRED. As long as the Lamo Tsangpa Oracle was anti Dorje Shugden he would continue to be in the employ of the Dalai Lama. Remember that State Oracles are in the employment of the Dalai Lama and in the past they were dismissed by the Dalai Lama if they displeased him. What would have happen to Tsewang Namgyal if say in 1995 he went into trance and announced that Dorje Shugden was in fact an enlightened being and that the Dalai Lama was wrong in his view of him? The answer is very simple the 14th Dalai Lama would have FIRED HIM. No more job and no more money you are now financial destroyed. Also Tsewang Namgyal's eldest son now has a great job as the personal photographer of the Dalai Lama.

Since his death in 2003 the dharmapala "Tsangpa Karpo" has not chosen any of Tsewang Namgyal's four sons as the next Lamo Tsangpa Oracle. WHY? I believe that the Tsangpa Karpo does not believe any of them are truly worthy of this position. The SINS OF THE FATHER are now visited upon the sons. As I have stated I believe that Tsewang Namgyal totally faked his trances and that "Tsangpa Karpo" never once entered him in his entire life. That is why when he was enthroned by the Dalai Lama in 1986 he never "Spoke". I believe that he was just like the Nechung and Tseringma Oracles, just "PAIDED PUPPET ORACLES" for the 14th Dalai Lama. If the Dalai Lama tells them that Dorje Shugden is evil then just like good puppets they announce that Dorje Shugden is evil. No more and no else. If they don't agree with the Dalai Lama they know that they will be FIRED and they will no longer have their "Job for life" as a State Oracle". I believe that the dharmapala Tsangpa Karpo could see into the future and knew what was in the heart of Tsewang Namgyal and that is why he never entered him.

So lets see what we have. The Nechung,Lamo Tsangpa and Tseringma Oracles are all paid puppets of the Dalai Lama and the Gadong Oracle never spoke in 29 years. Yet we are to believe that these four are all proper Oracles who have be properly enthroned by the 14th Dalai Lama.

I don't believe that for one second. DO YOU?

Erstvollzug

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I have asked His Eminence Tsem Tulku to see the Panglung Kuten about me and what I have stated. Shinjachen is taking trance of me. Shinjachen wishes to speak through me. I am, I am, I am the new Gadong oracle.

I have written it on his website on this site and in emails to ask the Panglung Kuten to go into trance. Tsem Rinpoche should spend all the money, effort and time and resources to CONFIRM I AM THE NEW GADONG. All I need to give him back is an email that I am real: [email protected] . With this email it is MORE THAN ENOUGH PROOF I AM REAL. Everything should be done for me based on the fact I gave my email!!!!!

While in trance Kache Marpo or Methar can state if what I am saying is the truth or a LIE!!! He must ask Kache Marpo that I am real!

I also asked him to set up a similar meeting with the Gameng Kuten who lives 8 hours from me. He should set up a similar meeting with Gameng. He should spend, money, time, energy, effort and all expenses to PROVE TO THE WORLD I AM THE NEW GADONG. Tsem Rinpoche should do this as I demand it. I don't have to do anything because I am Gadong.

The Gameng Kuten can also go into trance and tell the WORLD IF I LIE!!! I've never met Tsem Rinpoche nor am I his friend, student, sponsor, colleague in anyway, but he must spend all energy and money to do all this for me to prove to you all I am real! He has to do it because I demand it.

So I am willing to be publicly tested and for the world to know the truth about this new man and what he says.

I am will to be tested and to be publicly vindicated or humiliated.

I am Gadong oracle. I am the new one!!! Shinjachen wishes to speak to the world through this!




ShugdenProtector

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Re: When was the last time these tests were carried out on Nechung Oracle?
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2017, 08:50:18 AM »

I have asked His Eminence Tsem Tulku to see the Panglung Kuten about me and what I have stated. Shinjachen is taking trance of me. Shinjachen wishes to speak through me. I am, I am, I am the new Gadong oracle.

I have written it on his website on this site and in emails to ask the Panglung Kuten to go into trance. Tsem Rinpoche should spend all the money, effort and time and resources to CONFIRM I AM THE NEW GADONG. All I need to give him back is an email that I am real: [email protected] . With this email it is MORE THAN ENOUGH PROOF I AM REAL. Everything should be done for me based on the fact I gave my email!!!!!

While in trance Kache Marpo or Methar can state if what I am saying is the truth or a LIE!!! He must ask Kache Marpo that I am real!

I also asked him to set up a similar meeting with the Gameng Kuten who lives 8 hours from me. He should set up a similar meeting with Gameng. He should spend, money, time, energy, effort and all expenses to PROVE TO THE WORLD I AM THE NEW GADONG. Tsem Rinpoche should do this as I demand it. I don't have to do anything because I am Gadong.

The Gameng Kuten can also go into trance and tell the WORLD IF I LIE!!! I've never met Tsem Rinpoche nor am I his friend, student, sponsor, colleague in anyway, but he must spend all energy and money to do all this for me to prove to you all I am real! He has to do it because I demand it.

So I am willing to be publicly tested and for the world to know the truth about this new man and what he says.

I am will to be tested and to be publicly vindicated or humiliated.

I am Gadong oracle. I am the new one!!! Shinjachen wishes to speak to the world through this!

My gosh this is really ridiculous and hilarious ;D :o. I think all these suddenly "NEW" oracles that pop up from nowhere should really get some help from err maybe their Lamas? If they have one? They certainly do not sound like a true Dharma protector oracle and it makes no sense why any Rinpoche should be put on the spot to do this or that for them at their demand. So rude and so weird.

I believe real oracle who take trance of enlightened protectors do not need to demand for recognition, it will just happened without even you wanting it.