Author Topic: Ten Reasons Why Dorje Shugden is Considered a Buddha  (Read 12694 times)

beggar

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Re: Ten Reasons Why Dorje Shugden is Considered a Buddha
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2012, 09:08:29 PM »
This may be a little shallow, but another reason why Dorje Shugden is a Buddha and considered such a High Being is because when an oracle takes trance of Dorje Shugden, all High Lamas makes offerings of Body, Speech and Mind to Dorje Shugden.

But when Kache Marpo takes trance, it is He who makes offerings of Body, Speech and Mind to the High Lamas.

Am I right to say so?

There are many videos on youtube where we can witness this.

Actually, it should be noted that the Protectors in trance always pay respects and make offerings / pay homage to the Lamas, and not the other way around. The protectors listen and support what the Lamas say, and not actually the other way around. You will notice that if a Lama has already given a certain instruction or teaching to his students, the protector will never contradict or go against what the Lama has said. You will find that the protector's proclamations, advice and guidance will always perfectly match exactly what the Lama has already been teaching to his students.

When the Lamas (or his assistants) make offerings to the protector in trance, it is not that the Protector is "higher" than the Lama; it is that the Lama or his assistants or representatives make extensive offerings (or serkym or Tsok) to collect a large amount of merit on behalf of the students, his Dharma organisation or the many beings that will be benefited in the future by his works. The collection of this merit is very important so that the answers can come through clearly for the students and that they in turn can listen to and receive the answers clear and practice.

So you might wonder - if the lama is higher than the protector, then why do we even seek the counsel and advice of the protectors in trance? This is a very significant point to note. Yes, actually, we should follow the advice of our Lamas directly, as they teach and advise us. Often, the Lamas will agree to or instruct the protector to take trance through an oracle not because he does not know what to advise his own students or what decisions to make, but because many of the students will not have faith in or believe the Lama. For many students, they will still require hearing the answers directly from a deity for them to believe, develop faith and practice. In actual fact, it is the other way around - it is the Lama who makes the perfect decisions and gives the perfect advice for us. The Protectors support what he has advised and taught, clearing the way and creating the conducive conditions for him to manifest his works, visions, goals and intentions for his students, and all sentient beings.

DSFriend

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Re: Ten Reasons Why Dorje Shugden is Considered a Buddha
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2012, 06:11:14 AM »
Came across this blog post and thought of sharing it here with you.

Source :  http://kadampaworkingdad.wordpress.com/2012/02/06/wisdom-buddha-dorje-shugdens-two-functions/
Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden’s two functions
February 6, 2012 by Kadam Ryan

The function of a Dharma protector is to arrange all the outer and inner conditions of our lives so that everything that happens to us is perfect for our swiftest possible enlightenment.  But Dorje Shugden is more than just a Dharma protector, he is also a wisdom Buddha.  It is not enough to just know that the outer and inner conditions of our life are perfect for our enlightenment, but to be able to take full advantage of these conditions we need to understand and realize directly how (or in what way) they are indeed perfect.  When we have the wisdom which realizes how our conditions are perfect, then we can fully take advantage of them and move most swiftly to enlightenment.  The blessings of Dorje Shugden bestow upon us this wisdom of realizing how the conditions he has emanated for us are in fact perfect.  Then we are not only happy with everything, but can use everything most effectively to advance along the path.

When we realize the emptiness of ourselves, all beings and Dorje Shugden then we realize that his power is not limited to just arranging perfect conditions for ourselves and bestowing upon ourselves the wisdom realizing how our conditions are perfect, but we can also invoke him to accomplish this same function for each and every living being.  We pray to him that he arrange all the outer and inner conditions for each and every being so that whatever happens to them is perfect for their enlightenment.  He can then bestow upon us the wisdom that sees directly how whatever arises in the life of any living being is in fact perfect for their enlightenment.  Then, we can share our point of view with others, helping them to see their lives and challenges as gifts from all the Buddhas designed to quickly deliver them to the bliss of full enlightenment.

From our perspective, Dorje Shugden is the same being as the wisdom Buddha Manjushri.  Manjushri appears in two aspects, as Je Tsongkhapa to lead us along the path and as Dorje Shugden to arrange all the conditions of our practice.  It is therefore impossible to reject one without rejecting the other two.  Since we all agree that Manjushri and Je Tsongkhapa are perfectly reliable Buddhas, since Dorje Shugden is for us just a different aspect of this same being, Dorje Shugden is also perfectly reliable.  We cannot reject him without rejecting the others.  Since we cannot reject the others, we cannot reject him.

Positive Change

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Re: Ten Reasons Why Dorje Shugden is Considered a Buddha
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2012, 07:04:31 AM »
Quote
So you might wonder - if the lama is higher than the protector, then why do we even seek the counsel and advice of the protectors in trance? This is a very significant point to note. Yes, actually, we should follow the advice of our Lamas directly, as they teach and advise us. Often, the Lamas will agree to or instruct the protector to take trance through an oracle not because he does not know what to advise his own students or what decisions to make, but because many of the students will not have faith in or believe the Lama. For many students, they will still require hearing the answers directly from a deity for them to believe, develop faith and practice. In actual fact, it is the other way around - it is the Lama who makes the perfect decisions and gives the perfect advice for us. The Protectors support what he has advised and taught, clearing the way and creating the conducive conditions for him to manifest his works, visions, goals and intentions for his students, and all sentient beings.


I have heard this before too. It is through the grace of the Lama that an oracle is even given the opportunity to take trance (at least in front of the Lama).

It is always our Lama of whom we have taken refuge, that we listen to. However in this day and age, for lack of "belief" or "faith" in the 'person' in front of us, we still seek the 'divine' and thus oracles taking trance of deities are still revered. By no means is our Lama incapable but it is through his skillful means to get the message across to close minded student or the like that such means are employed.

It is funny (not in a hilarious manner) that our very basic practice of refuge, we always have hold our Lama above and yet we disbelief... strange but true:

Namo Guru beh
Namo Buddha ya
Namo Dharma ya
Namo Sangha ya

jeremyg

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Re: Ten Reasons Why Dorje Shugden is Considered a Buddha
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2012, 01:17:17 PM »
In response to positive change.

I wish like some of you on this forum that I had access to lama close to me, instead i have to learn through texts, and through the internet. It is such a shame when students don't listen to their lama. If you have a lama that is accessible to you, it is such a blessing. Think of how small the number is of the amount of people who have access to teachings of a lama, let alone direct contact. Just being in the presence of a lama will bless you tremendously. Think about it, why would a lama waste his words if he tells you to do something. His only mission is to guide you to enlightenment, so why would he tell you the wrong thing?

Having said that being in the presence of an oracle taking trance is another kind of blessing, and sometimes necessary, as the oracle is actually invoking the buddha before you.

My point is that we should have full faith in a lama, at least those who are fortunate enough to be close to one. Please make use of it.

Ensapa

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Re: Ten Reasons Why Dorje Shugden is Considered a Buddha
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2012, 05:31:36 PM »
In response to positive change.

I wish like some of you on this forum that I had access to lama close to me, instead i have to learn through texts, and through the internet. It is such a shame when students don't listen to their lama. If you have a lama that is accessible to you, it is such a blessing. Think of how small the number is of the amount of people who have access to teachings of a lama, let alone direct contact. Just being in the presence of a lama will bless you tremendously. Think about it, why would a lama waste his words if he tells you to do something. His only mission is to guide you to enlightenment, so why would he tell you the wrong thing?

Having said that being in the presence of an oracle taking trance is another kind of blessing, and sometimes necessary, as the oracle is actually invoking the buddha before you.

My point is that we should have full faith in a lama, at least those who are fortunate enough to be close to one. Please make use of it.

Hi jeremyng,

Being near a Guru can be one of the most challenging things in your life that you ever will have done. For a person who has not been near a Guru before, it is not very nice to talk in this way about someone who actually is near a  Guru. Nobody near a Guru ever thinks about running away or disobeying the Guru, ever, but not everyone can handle the degree of training that a real Guru can give. Some students get disillusioned, or their minds get overwhelmed as the Guru reveals more of their own minds to themselves, and some cannot take it.

It may not be the best experience for everyone as the best medicine is always, as the chinese say, bitter, but it is what has to be undertaken to grow spiritually. I would not judge anyone who is close to a teacher to why and how their behavior is in such and such a way…perhaps they are in a journey of discovering themselves and the unboxing of themselves, and they might be too stressed to care about their behavior for now.

It is not always easy being near a Guru and it is certainly not fair to tell someone who is close to a Lama off that they should listen to their lama etc…who does not want to listen to their Lama? everyone wants to but it is sometimes not easy. I have seen this by observation. A real, kind lama will put his or her students through a lot and a lot trials and tribulations to train them to absorb the difficulties of others. For such people they are very, very lucky and for people to criticize them instead of rejoicing, it certainly does not help in creating the causes to get a real teacher.

I have seen of how some senior students of my lama acted and reacted, and the over time they gain more and more faith in my lama and I would not judge them and faith built up this way is solid and unshakable compared to people who came to my lama merely because they were in awe. I would not judge or blame because i am aware that it is not easy to act within the expectation of people who wish they had...

Dondrup Shugden

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Re: Ten Reasons Why Dorje Shugden is Considered a Buddha
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2015, 03:13:05 PM »
If any Anti Dorje Shugden needed to do anything to rid a Demon, they can perform pujas to do so.  Till to day nothing like that can be done and even if done did not succeed.

This article on why Dorje Shugden is a Buddha explains well.