Author Topic: The Dorje Shugden Debate !  (Read 10022 times)

Zach

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The Dorje Shugden Debate !
« on: July 08, 2012, 03:59:09 PM »
dorjeshugdendebate.org

Present your cases ! for and against.  ;)

Zach

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Re: The Dorje Shugden Debate !
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2012, 04:04:12 PM »

Big Uncle

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Re: The Dorje Shugden Debate !
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2012, 04:27:11 PM »
Dear Zach,

It's a nice site but what is it all about? Is it a members-only forum? And what is the real purpose and what is there to debate about? Dharma or just about Dorje Shugden. I don't see how I can get into the debate forum on this site so I can't tell how things will be handled. Are you in the forum and can you tell us exactly what is this all about?


Tenzin Gyatso

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Re: The Dorje Shugden Debate !
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2012, 11:39:23 PM »
Simple: Follow a perfect teacher that is learned, with wisdom and far reaching. Who but HHDL fits that bill perfectly today?

Do not engage in Shugden practice. This is advice arising from the wellspring of knowledge and wisdom of HHDL.

Manjushri

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Re: The Dorje Shugden Debate !
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2012, 06:14:46 AM »
Yes indeed, there may be a perfect teacher for you, but others may not have the karma to have a perfect teacher like you. There are many perfect teachers and lamas, not only His Holiness, who others have the karma to be with, learn from, and maybe receive DS practises from.

A teacher like Geshe Kelsang Gyatso is perfect, learned, has unshakeable wisdom and is far reaching as evidently shown through the results of his many centres around the world. He fits perfectly as a teacher too, spreading the wisdom of the Buddha, just like HHDL who spreads the wisdom of the Buddha. Since both spreads the Dharma immaculately, their motivation is the same. But what differs is that HHDL says to not practise DS, whilst GKG's centres promotes the practise. This advise of practising arise also from 'the wellspring of knowledge and wisdom' of GKG. So who are we to say that one guru is right and one is wrong, or who has more wisdom and knowledge when both are/were in Samsara to teach others the path towards enlightenment. On what basis are you stating to not practise Shugden? Just because HHDL said so? But my teacher, whom I have the karma to meet, said to practise DS, so what's your point?

Watch this inspiring video of a DS empowerment given in NKT by one of Geshe-la's diciples, Gen-la Dekyong. I fold my unworthy hands to Geshe Kelsang Gyatso for having made Dharma and DS flourish through his many centres around the world:

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=2120.msg30009#msg30009



Zach

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Re: The Dorje Shugden Debate !
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2012, 09:53:28 AM »
Click on the contents link to find out more.  :D

Vajraprotector

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Re: The Dorje Shugden Debate !
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2012, 01:34:51 PM »
Simple: Follow a perfect teacher that is learned, with wisdom and far reaching. Who but HHDL fits that bill perfectly today?

Do not engage in Shugden practice. This is advice arising from the wellspring of knowledge and wisdom of HHDL.

Yes, one should follow a perfect teacher and my teacher is perfect for me as I have checked my teacher out and my teacher has compassionately accepted me. Texts like 50 stanzas of Guru Devotion mentioned to look for a teacher with good qualities, and I don't remember "famous" being one of the qualities  ;D.

Also, as my teacher has given me the practice of Dorje Shugden, I cannot go against his advice and disparage my teacher just because a more popular/ famous Lama said so.

It is said in the Ornament of the Vajra Essence Tantra:
Even if those who disparage the perfect master give up sleep and distracting places and make a fine attempt over a thousand eosn to accomplish the highest practice of all the tantras, they will [just] accomplish [rebirth] in hell and so on.

Also in the first chapter of the Little Samvara Tantra:
The completely absored adept should always guard the pledges. When the pledges get broken the bestowal of empowerment in a mandala and accomplishments are not attained.

His Holiness is a great teacher, but he is NOT my teacher.

michaela

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Re: The Dorje Shugden Debate !
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2012, 02:40:30 PM »
Simple: Follow a perfect teacher that is learned, with wisdom and far reaching. Who but HHDL fits that bill perfectly today?

Do not engage in Shugden practice. This is advice arising from the wellspring of knowledge and wisdom of HHDL.

Dear Tenzin Gyatso

My teacher may not be as famous as HHDL yet at this point in time.  However, my teacher always give me reasons and encourage me to learn,  ask question and develop my reasoning.  He never once tried to intimidate me and banning me from his teachings just for the sole reason I disagree with him  - This is quite contradictory with what HHDL is doing to Shugdenpas.

My teacher is not HHDL, but I am always grateful that he gave me refuge vows because he is the right teacher for me.  My Lama gave me DS practice.  When doing that, he also advised me strongly to learn about DS as it will increase my faith instead of just carrying his instruction just because he gave me the practice.  I think that is real wisdom!

dsiluvu

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Re: The Dorje Shugden Debate !
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2012, 08:49:01 PM »
Hey Zach... it is a beautiful website! But yeah I do not see how I could participate in the debate here. I don't see anywhere people could register or do you need to contact someone?? How do you work it? And yes what is the purpose of debating there? Is it like a forum?

Simple: Follow a perfect teacher that is learned, with wisdom and far reaching. Who but HHDL fits that bill perfectly today?

Do not engage in Shugden practice. This is advice arising from the wellspring of knowledge and wisdom of HHDL.

Tenzin Gyatso... I don not think a famous Guru with high status should be the calling for all Dharma practitioners to just follow blindly. His Holiness may be great but He is not my Guru that gave me advice, show me kindness, transform my mind and is my living Buddha who is around!

Hundreds of thousands of HHDL follow HHDL just because he is "famous" sounds rather silly to me if you ask me. And what bill does it actually fit? The bill that says I have a popular Guru? Did not realise that this is the type of reasons one follow a Guru. It only goes to show a peasant like mentality who seems to be too lazy to find out the truth and because of that they follow blindly and well that doesn't fit the bill either!

Zach

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Re: The Dorje Shugden Debate !
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2012, 02:51:13 PM »
Hey Zach... it is a beautiful website! But yeah I do not see how I could participate in the debate here. I don't see anywhere people could register or do you need to contact someone?? How do you work it? And yes what is the purpose of debating there? Is it like a forum?

Simple: Follow a perfect teacher that is learned, with wisdom and far reaching. Who but HHDL fits that bill perfectly today?

Do not engage in Shugden practice. This is advice arising from the wellspring of knowledge and wisdom of HHDL.

Tenzin Gyatso... I don not think a famous Guru with high status should be the calling for all Dharma practitioners to just follow blindly. His Holiness may be great but He is not my Guru that gave me advice, show me kindness, transform my mind and is my living Buddha who is around!

Hundreds of thousands of HHDL follow HHDL just because he is "famous" sounds rather silly to me if you ask me. And what bill does it actually fit? The bill that says I have a popular Guru? Did not realise that this is the type of reasons one follow a Guru. It only goes to show a peasant like mentality who seems to be too lazy to find out the truth and because of that they follow blindly and well that doesn't fit the bill either!


kris

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Re: The Dorje Shugden Debate !
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2012, 04:26:14 PM »
The URL is sure very interesting, but the website doesn't say much... Some of the posts showed that they are updated in January 2012. It has been more than 8 months ago, and there seem to have no update on this website.

I think it is not a forum, but more like a real person debate (instead of online forum). I wonder where will the debate take place, and if there will be any live streaming for the debate.

Anyone has more information about this debate?

Ensapa

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Re: The Dorje Shugden Debate !
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2012, 10:24:59 AM »
Nice website, nice initiative. I like it, but sadly most people who like to 'debate' about Dorje Shugden often choose avenues where they know that there are people who do not know about the issue enough to see through lies and confusing technical terms. They often throw a lot of "historical" facts and a lot of claims in their statements, and people who dont know any better will think that it is something real. As you can see, none of those big talkers dare to come in here and try to convince us that Dorje Shugden is bad. They will always target those forums or those places where people are fresh to Buddhism (Why choose newbies and then turn them away from Buddhism or scare them? Should they not focus more on the basics instead?) because they are nice and fresh for prepping. Also, they tend to use the same methods to attack those who defend Dorje Shugden in those forums: by saying that their source of information of the Dorje Shugden defenders is invalid and only their source is valid. I have seen this in action many times in various forums around, and even on tricycle's webpage.

No matter how it seems, it does look like as though the detractors were all paid and they were trained by the same source and material to talk negatively about Dorje Shugden online. Unless we can sharpen our knowledge of not just Dorje  Shugden but also that of the Dalai Lama as well (without being biased against him, of course, because everyone knows that the Dalai Lama is not an evil person) and when we have these tools to 'debate' with the crusaders, we will be able to get the message clearly across. A debate forum that was opened like in the link would only work if it can attract the anti Dorje Shugden people there as well as the newbies, so that there is a well balanced mix of views.