Author Topic: Anti-Shugden Chakras  (Read 49576 times)

Barzin

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Re: Anti-Shugden Chakras
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2011, 02:12:07 PM »
I just don't understand.  We are all the same after all - Buddhists.  Together we are spreading Buddha's teachings and practices from thousands of years.  History has it all the way til today and yet, among  us people are still competing and some even bring people down as if who is more superior or whose protector is more powerful...  It is truly sad to know that people still do that. 

Just like the Shugden controversy.  History has it, facts has it, even the mystical power side has it.. Shugden is here to stay.  Accept it.  If he is a demon, then this demon is going to be around even after you're dead.  Fact.  Whether Shugden is your protector or not, do respect because there are people get benefit from this protector.   With degenerate times like this, I don't think an anti-Shugden Chakra will help much.  We truly should spread the dharma instead.

diamond girl

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Re: Anti-Shugden Chakras
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2011, 03:12:26 AM »
I have witnessed the process of chakra-making. The main 'ingredient' of a chakra is a special mantra of the deity in a circular fashion, either clockwise or anti clockwise. The mantra is in Tibetan text, and if you read Tibetan, you can read the mantra going round and round. This circular mantra is called a soongkor. The soongkor is then folded with prayers and rituals into a smaller piece of paper and then wrapped in cloth, thread etc followed by a final blessing ritual before the chakra is ready for use.

If the soongkor is of Manjushri's mantra, then we get a Manjushri chakra. If the soongkor is of Tara's mantra, then we get a Tara chakra. So... if the  'soongkor' is of two scorpions, we get scorpion chakra???  ??? And two scorpions on a piece of paper is going to beat the mantra of the King Protector Dorje Shugden (oh yes they have real Dorje Shugden chakras too). Makes no sense at all.

I can't comment on why Dudjom Rinpoche would promote these anti-shugden chakras. Chakras are meant to protect the wearer from negative influences, black magic, spirits, clear obstacles and inteferences etc but I have never known a chakra to be more effective than a puja to solve any particular situation. So, logically speaking, if fire pujas have failed to tame Dorje Shugden, what good would these so-called anti-shugden chakras be?

This is educational Thor. Thank you. And most hilarious about what soongkor would be inside the scorpion chakra?

From the description of how chakras are made, it is obvious and clear that these chakras are just propaganda playing on the anti-shugden sentiment... Very sad.

icy

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Re: Anti-Shugden Chakras
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2011, 01:47:36 PM »
Oh, Anti-Shugden Chakras?  It is hilarious and so cartoonish.  There must be some misinformation.   Can some one in Nepal  please send him some facts?

shugdenprotect

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Re: Anti-Shugden Chakras
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2011, 04:29:59 PM »
I understand Chakras to be talisman that protect us from general harms or, for some, specific harm of some sort. Example,  there are Dukkar chakras that shield us from black magic, Dzambala chakras that bring wealth etc. I have yet to hear of a chakra to "protects" us from a particular being. Even more ironic, the being in this case is the enlightened Buddha Dorje Shugden!

Therefore, I believe that any person with sense and have exposure to pure Dharma teachings will be able to distinguish these chakras from authentic chakras. Like many things that have been created to destroy the practice of Dorje Shugden, these chakras will sizzle away simply because they will not work.

Ensapa

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Re: Anti-Shugden Chakras
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2012, 05:07:58 AM »
What is more interesting is that, in Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors, it is clearly mentioned of a certain Nyigma monastery that Dorje Shugden impersonated their protector:


Pretending to be Dragshul Wangpo, you tormented the oracle
By swallowing a vajra in his throat,
And repeatedly split his temple abode, and so on,
Praise to the terrifier of even the great gods

In detail:
Quote
Dharmapala demonstrated various miraculous emanations to Lelung Shepay Dorje
who tried various Tantric rituals such as wrathful fire puja to overcome him.
Therefore, to the common point view, they appeared to be at odds and, before
Lelung Shepay Dorje died, Dharmapala showed him wrathful emanations. In
somewhat of a wrathful aspect toward Lelung Shepay Dorje's teachings'
protector, Dragshul Wangpo, as well, with miraculous emanations he split his
temple abode at Lhaden Darpo Ling so that it collapsed. No matter how many
times it was reconstructed he would split it and destroy it again. Moreover,
pretending to be Dragshul Wangpo he entered the deity's oracle at Darpo Ling
and, shaking the oracle's body, swallowed a five?spoked vajra. Once it had lodged
in his throat he left the oracle's body. The vajra would not come out, the oracle
was in pain and at the verge of death. All of the benefactors and supplicants of the
deity were terrified. It became so bad that they invoked Gyalchen to enter the
oracle and then made offerings and supplications. He said, 'If you build a qualified
statue of Je Tsongkhapa in Darling Monastery I will perform the enlightening
activities!' As soon as they promised to do that, the vajra easily came out of the
oracle's throat. Here the praise is for revealing this kind of direct observable
evidence that develops faith and conviction.
After many years the building of the Darling protector palace was in ruins
so that, at one point, those in charge of the property from Tse Namgyal Dratsang
restored it. Responsibility for the construction was accepted from Thubten Dawa
by Dodam Dezur Kenchung who, in connection with invoking the Dharmapala of
Darling, removed the basal objects from the protector palace. He found an
extremely old tendö,

thread construction, that had been there many years.
Behind it, underneath a pile of various newer and older dö, thread crosses, was a
brass five?spoked vajra that the Darling Dharmapala took out and said, 'This is
Dorje Shugden's vajra!'

An accounting of it was given to Dezur Kenchung stating
only that such a vajra had been found behind the thread construction. Dodam
Kenchung himself wrote of wondering what was this vajra that had been taken
out and given to him by the Darling Dharmpala, of which no one, including the
previous oracle, had known was there. This story from previous times again
provides evidence for conviction and belief

On a quick search, Dragshul Wangpo appears linked to Dudjom Rinpoche: http://vimalatreasures.org/offering-and-invocation-of-dragshul-wangpos-concerned-activities-called-the-roar-of-hung.aspx


Is there a connection? hmmmm.

Maybe Dudjom Rinpoche's actions was due to this incident? Hmmmm. If there is, I would not blame Dudjom Rinpoche at all but I would forgive him with understanding.

dondrup

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Re: Anti-Shugden Chakras
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2012, 08:30:20 PM »
It is beyond comprehension a high lama like Dudjom Rinpoche is sectarian and anti-Gelugpa tradition. It is also very unbecoming of a high lama like Dudjom Rinpoche to be against Dorje Shugden in such a manner as having built a monastery with a Dorje Drolod statue stepping on Dorje Shugden and tearing Dorje Shugden's heart out. It is even mind-boggling and funny a high lama like Dudjom Rinpoche would resort to come up with these chakras? 
 
Furthermore like Thaimonk had said many rituals, pujas and lamas for 350 years failed to destroy Dorje Shugden.  It had proven Dorje Shugden is a fully enlightened Buddha and not a spirit.  A Buddha cannot be “killed”!  Can Dudjom Rinpoche's chakra destroy Dorje Shugden?

Surely Dudjom Rinpoche has the wisdom to know who Dorje Shugden is? 

Ensapa

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Re: Anti-Shugden Chakras
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2012, 09:08:20 AM »
It is beyond comprehension a high lama like Dudjom Rinpoche is sectarian and anti-Gelugpa tradition. It is also very unbecoming of a high lama like Dudjom Rinpoche to be against Dorje Shugden in such a manner as having built a monastery with a Dorje Drolod statue stepping on Dorje Shugden and tearing Dorje Shugden's heart out. It is even mind-boggling and funny a high lama like Dudjom Rinpoche would resort to come up with these chakras? 
 
Furthermore like Thaimonk had said many rituals, pujas and lamas for 350 years failed to destroy Dorje Shugden.  It had proven Dorje Shugden is a fully enlightened Buddha and not a spirit.  A Buddha cannot be “killed”!  Can Dudjom Rinpoche's chakra destroy Dorje Shugden?

Surely Dudjom Rinpoche has the wisdom to know who Dorje Shugden is?

Maybe it is to appease their protector? After all, looking at the history, an unenlightened protector is never a match against an enlightened one. The unenlightened ones can always be impersonated so you do not know who is really in them. I am totally not surprised at all as Dragshul Wangpo is not enlightened, he could have done something....like nechung etc. It is not like Dorje Shugden who is enlightened and dependable. So it is not surprising if the unenlightened one feels vengeful and advised him to do such things or that he gets blackmailed to do such things...

I personally do not know how to view this situation, that such a high lama choose to get involved in such matters as history has unearthed something interesting that we can all examine and think about. All I can think of is perhaps that he is doing this to appease his own protector, because his yangsi came back...

DharmaSpace

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Re: Anti-Shugden Chakras
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2012, 09:27:04 AM »
Thank you, Thor that is very logical explanation on how chakras are made. So a Migtsema Soongkor would yield
a Lama Tsongkhapa Chakra?

Dagpo Rinpoche also wrote about about Dorje Shugden pretending to be Dragshul Wangpo and yes looks like the source of this is in the 'Music Delighting and Ocean of Protectors'
http://dorjeshugden.net/wp/?page_id=1693

Not very sure why Dudjom Rinpoche would go against Dorje Shugden. But how can chakras harm a Buddha, yes as mentioned by many on the forum, even the 16th Karmapa had nothing negative to say about Dorje Shudgen.


kris

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Re: Anti-Shugden Chakras
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2012, 05:01:40 AM »
When I first encounter Tibetan Buddhism, a lot of the images really scare me. For example Vajrayogini, with her chain, stepping on bodies; Setrap with wrathful look with chain, etc. Of course, Dorje Shugden images are scary to me too. However, after explanation, I am not afraid anymore. Most of the "ugly" things in the images are actually are attachments, our delusion and our bad karma (through our bad actions from countless lifetime).

However, when I look at the images of 2 ugly scorpions, I really cannot relate or associate them with anything bad with ourselves. What are the scorpions trying to kill? Our ego? What does the fire mean?

I am very sad to see these images and I really don't know how much bad karma is generated by drawing this kind of images...

Big Uncle

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Re: Anti-Shugden Chakras
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2012, 10:39:29 AM »
What is more interesting is that, in Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors, it is clearly mentioned of a certain Nyigma monastery that Dorje Shugden impersonated their protector:


Pretending to be Dragshul Wangpo, you tormented the oracle
By swallowing a vajra in his throat,
And repeatedly split his temple abode, and so on,
Praise to the terrifier of even the great gods

In detail:
Quote
Dharmapala demonstrated various miraculous emanations to Lelung Shepay Dorje
who tried various Tantric rituals such as wrathful fire puja to overcome him.
Therefore, to the common point view, they appeared to be at odds and, before
Lelung Shepay Dorje died, Dharmapala showed him wrathful emanations. In
somewhat of a wrathful aspect toward Lelung Shepay Dorje's teachings'
protector, Dragshul Wangpo, as well, with miraculous emanations he split his
temple abode at Lhaden Darpo Ling so that it collapsed. No matter how many
times it was reconstructed he would split it and destroy it again. Moreover,
pretending to be Dragshul Wangpo he entered the deity's oracle at Darpo Ling
and, shaking the oracle's body, swallowed a five?spoked vajra. Once it had lodged
in his throat he left the oracle's body. The vajra would not come out, the oracle
was in pain and at the verge of death. All of the benefactors and supplicants of the
deity were terrified. It became so bad that they invoked Gyalchen to enter the
oracle and then made offerings and supplications. He said, 'If you build a qualified
statue of Je Tsongkhapa in Darling Monastery I will perform the enlightening
activities!' As soon as they promised to do that, the vajra easily came out of the
oracle's throat. Here the praise is for revealing this kind of direct observable
evidence that develops faith and conviction.
After many years the building of the Darling protector palace was in ruins
so that, at one point, those in charge of the property from Tse Namgyal Dratsang
restored it. Responsibility for the construction was accepted from Thubten Dawa
by Dodam Dezur Kenchung who, in connection with invoking the Dharmapala of
Darling, removed the basal objects from the protector palace. He found an
extremely old tendö,

thread construction, that had been there many years.
Behind it, underneath a pile of various newer and older dö, thread crosses, was a
brass five?spoked vajra that the Darling Dharmapala took out and said, 'This is
Dorje Shugden's vajra!'

An accounting of it was given to Dezur Kenchung stating
only that such a vajra had been found behind the thread construction. Dodam
Kenchung himself wrote of wondering what was this vajra that had been taken
out and given to him by the Darling Dharmpala, of which no one, including the
previous oracle, had known was there. This story from previous times again
provides evidence for conviction and belief

On a quick search, Dragshul Wangpo appears linked to Dudjom Rinpoche: http://vimalatreasures.org/offering-and-invocation-of-dragshul-wangpos-concerned-activities-called-the-roar-of-hung.aspx


Is there a connection? hmmmm.

Maybe Dudjom Rinpoche's actions was due to this incident? Hmmmm. If there is, I would not blame Dudjom Rinpoche at all but I would forgive him with understanding.


I doubt that is the reason Dudjom Rinpoche was fearful of Dorje Shugden and caused him to create protective chakras against Dorje Shugden. If powerful fire rituals were ineffective against Dorje Shugden, how can these simple chakras be effective. Didn't all Nyingmas tried in vain to kill Dorje Shugden with their renowned fire rituals and didn't they fail? Whatever his reasons were, these chakras were definitely ineffective. Check out what they tried to do to Dorje Shugden :-

This is extracted from Music Delighting An Ocean of Protectors as well, page 103-104 :-

Then, although four undisputed powerful Tantricas,
With samadhi, began wrathful rituals to strike you down,
Through power of having completed Guyasamaja's two stages,
You would not be silenced, and showed signs of heroism, praise to you!

As for this, as related above, as soon as Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen died, various miraculous manifestations occurred, and no matter what activities or rituals were attempted, nothing could be found to help stop them. In the fire?bird year manifestations had become extremely heightened, and in the earth?bird year the Great Fifth Dalai Lama built a new king protector house at the White Spring of Dol in to which various sorts of representational substances were placed, but it did not help. Many of the lay people were sick in an epidemic and several of the monks of Namgyal Tratsang had died. Such manifestations were stronger than even before and Namgyal Tratsang requested the Dalai Lama to take action.

Accordingly, to the Tratsang came Gadong Ngarampa Dondrub Gyatso, a vajra master of Dorje Drolo; the Fifth Dalai Lama, himself a supreme vajra master of Yang Sang Karma Dragpo, Super Secret Wrathful Karma Guru; two large groups of monks provided by Nangjung Ngachang Lozang Kyentse; the vajra master of Dorje Drak Tulku Pema Trinle; the vajra master of Mindrol Ling Terdag Lingpa Gyurme Dorje; Choje Ugja Lungpa; the Tantrica of Katsal Zurpa Ngari Konchog Lhundrup; thus a glorious mountain of Tulkus did seven ritual practices, from Wrathful Guru Padmasambhava, to Yamanataka, Kilaya, Logtrixxxvii, and so forth. On the comfortable broad eastern side of the Potala they did fire puja. The morning they were performing the ritual activity, one monk in Chagpori named Bodhisattva, who had clairvoyance, had a vision during his meditation. Early in the morning, from the direction of the Potala he saw small wrathful Deities emanating forth like atoms of sunbeams, going towards Drepung. Around eight in the morning he saw the Great King of Dol, master and servants, about to go to the Potala in a line on horseback in an impossible array of finery and ornamentation. The Fifth Dalai Lama performed the ritual activity but as he was doing it Sangpu Setrab emanated a monastery on top of Bumpa Ri, Vase Mountain, where none had been before and rocked the Potala Palace back and forth, which caused the Great Fifth's concentration to waver just slightly; and also by the power of Dragpa Gyaltsen, himself, having singlepointedly practised glorious Guyasamaja while he was alive and attained high experiential realizations of its two stages, the fire puja was not successful.

Likewise, when the great vajra master Dordrag Rigtzin peformed wrathful fire puja, Gyalchen came to the fire puja ladle but, when he turned the ladle over to pour into the fire he went to the backside of the ladle, and when he turned it upright, he was sitting on top again, and so on, and he was unable to burn him. When Mingling Terchen performed wrathful fire puja and Gyalchen came to the fire puja ladle, when he was about to put him in the fire, Setrab emanated a celestial mansion in the sky until Terchen's mind was distracted and he lost him from the ladle. The ritual monks saw a pigeon fly away. When Gadong Ngarampa performed fire puja, one of the ritual monks squeezed a dry apricot pit that flew up and struck the master in the head so that his samadhi dissipated and he was unable to burn him. Other teams of practitioners could not do it either. With fire pujas ineffective, the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, with an aspect of being disturbed, went to Sangpu Monastery and delivered a reprimanding address to Setrab in a very terrifying manner. As he was reading it, the Dharmapala was so scared the whole temple rocked and shook, it is said.

Ensapa

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Re: Anti-Shugden Chakras
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2012, 07:13:55 PM »
I doubt that is the reason Dudjom Rinpoche was fearful of Dorje Shugden and caused him to create protective chakras against Dorje Shugden. If powerful fire rituals were ineffective against Dorje Shugden, how can these simple chakras be effective. Didn't all Nyingmas tried in vain to kill Dorje Shugden with their renowned fire rituals and didn't they fail? Whatever his reasons were, these chakras were definitely ineffective. Check out what they tried to do to Dorje Shugden :-

This is extracted from Music Delighting An Ocean of Protectors as well, page 103-104 :-

Then, although four undisputed powerful Tantricas,
With samadhi, began wrathful rituals to strike you down,
Through power of having completed Guyasamaja's two stages,
You would not be silenced, and showed signs of heroism, praise to you!

As for this, as related above, as soon as Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen died, various miraculous manifestations occurred, and no matter what activities or rituals were attempted, nothing could be found to help stop them. In the fire?bird year manifestations had become extremely heightened, and in the earth?bird year the Great Fifth Dalai Lama built a new king protector house at the White Spring of Dol in to which various sorts of representational substances were placed, but it did not help. Many of the lay people were sick in an epidemic and several of the monks of Namgyal Tratsang had died. Such manifestations were stronger than even before and Namgyal Tratsang requested the Dalai Lama to take action.

Accordingly, to the Tratsang came Gadong Ngarampa Dondrub Gyatso, a vajra master of Dorje Drolo; the Fifth Dalai Lama, himself a supreme vajra master of Yang Sang Karma Dragpo, Super Secret Wrathful Karma Guru; two large groups of monks provided by Nangjung Ngachang Lozang Kyentse; the vajra master of Dorje Drak Tulku Pema Trinle; the vajra master of Mindrol Ling Terdag Lingpa Gyurme Dorje; Choje Ugja Lungpa; the Tantrica of Katsal Zurpa Ngari Konchog Lhundrup; thus a glorious mountain of Tulkus did seven ritual practices, from Wrathful Guru Padmasambhava, to Yamanataka, Kilaya, Logtrixxxvii, and so forth. On the comfortable broad eastern side of the Potala they did fire puja. The morning they were performing the ritual activity, one monk in Chagpori named Bodhisattva, who had clairvoyance, had a vision during his meditation. Early in the morning, from the direction of the Potala he saw small wrathful Deities emanating forth like atoms of sunbeams, going towards Drepung. Around eight in the morning he saw the Great King of Dol, master and servants, about to go to the Potala in a line on horseback in an impossible array of finery and ornamentation. The Fifth Dalai Lama performed the ritual activity but as he was doing it Sangpu Setrab emanated a monastery on top of Bumpa Ri, Vase Mountain, where none had been before and rocked the Potala Palace back and forth, which caused the Great Fifth's concentration to waver just slightly; and also by the power of Dragpa Gyaltsen, himself, having singlepointedly practised glorious Guyasamaja while he was alive and attained high experiential realizations of its two stages, the fire puja was not successful.

Likewise, when the great vajra master Dordrag Rigtzin peformed wrathful fire puja, Gyalchen came to the fire puja ladle but, when he turned the ladle over to pour into the fire he went to the backside of the ladle, and when he turned it upright, he was sitting on top again, and so on, and he was unable to burn him. When Mingling Terchen performed wrathful fire puja and Gyalchen came to the fire puja ladle, when he was about to put him in the fire, Setrab emanated a celestial mansion in the sky until Terchen's mind was distracted and he lost him from the ladle. The ritual monks saw a pigeon fly away. When Gadong Ngarampa performed fire puja, one of the ritual monks squeezed a dry apricot pit that flew up and struck the master in the head so that his samadhi dissipated and he was unable to burn him. Other teams of practitioners could not do it either. With fire pujas ineffective, the Great Fifth Dalai Lama, with an aspect of being disturbed, went to Sangpu Monastery and delivered a reprimanding address to Setrab in a very terrifying manner. As he was reading it, the Dharmapala was so scared the whole temple rocked and shook, it is said.

However, like i have said it could just have been done simply to appease the unenlightened protector so that he does not get upset. It is more or less a show to appease something or someone, even though it obviously does not work and that it does not have any effects. There are no mantras on the chakra and it does not seem to be something that will work at all, like a pacifier for a child: it is just there to provide emotional calm and does not do anything else other than that. Dudjom Rinpoche would definitely not be fearful of Dorje Shugden, but what about the unenlightened protector who are notoriously unpredictable and difficult to control?

Scorpions are said to represent Guru Rinpoche, but to depict them in this way is pretty much borderline disrespectful as the depictions are very crude. There aren't much to say about those chakras and car stickers except that it is very apparent that they were not very well made: as if the person who made them just did it crudely to appease something or someone.

From the accounts it is clear that Dorje Shugden does not have the karma to be harmed and neither does he need to be protected against. If you don't want to be near him, just make inauspicious prayers to not meet him haha….and you'll not need those chakras but also you'll lose contact with the Dharma for many lifetimes to come. This is a part that i find quite hilarious that people are seeking protection AGAINST Dorje Shugden. Why would he wanna come disturb you for no reason at all? Why the paranoia?

The one thing I still find baffling is all the connections that are being drawn here, the relationships between Dradshul Wangpo and Dujdom, and Dorje Shugden impersonating that protector to make a point, and now Dudjom Rinpoche is going against Dorje Shugden. Might all of these be related in some way?

thaimonk

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Re: Anti-Shugden Chakras
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2012, 08:28:09 PM »
The need for shugden chakras are all in the mind of beings who refuse to understand the true nature of Dorje Shugden for whatever reasons they profess.

No chakra can protect you from suffering, ghosts, magic, malevolent forces if you don't do your part.


bambi

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Re: Anti-Shugden Chakras
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2012, 09:47:16 AM »
I don't mean to be rude but I was actually surprised that these chakras exist. If a fire puja back and rituals then couldn't stop Dorje Shugden, what makes people think they can stop Him with chakras? I am pretty sure He has his reasons for doing these anti Shugden chakras. Dealing with an Enlightened being such as Dorje Shugden does not need any anti items as it will not work.... ;D

DharmaDefender

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Re: Anti-Shugden Chakras
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2012, 11:22:23 AM »
The need for shugden chakras are all in the mind of beings who refuse to understand the true nature of Dorje Shugden for whatever reasons they profess.

No chakra can protect you from suffering, ghosts, magic, malevolent forces if you don't do your part.

KARMA BABY.

Dagom Rinpoche and every single qualified teacher has said a million times over...believe in karma, and you will be protected. Everything about every Buddha and every practice is about purifying your karma, or helping you to curb afflictive actions of body, speech and mind so you stop creating karma. No karma, no harm...the best protection because no one can take it away from you AND it's FREE.

Why is it a qualified teacher will never tell you to pay for protection, but will always give you practices for protection? To purify your karma. Same concept with the Dalai Lama...he has no karma to be harmed so Dorje Shugden (even if he wanted to, which he doesnt!) can never harm him!

Karma karma karma karma KARMA. Jesus why is it so difficult for everyone to understand?

(soz, not had my morning tea yet. I know, its late)

DS Star

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Re: Anti-Shugden Chakras
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2012, 11:43:26 PM »
The need for shugden chakras are all in the mind of beings who refuse to understand the true nature of Dorje Shugden for whatever reasons they profess.

No chakra can protect you from suffering, ghosts, magic, malevolent forces if you don't do your part.

KARMA BABY.

Dagom Rinpoche and every single qualified teacher has said a million times over...believe in karma, and you will be protected. Everything about every Buddha and every practice is about purifying your karma, or helping you to curb afflictive actions of body, speech and mind so you stop creating karma. No karma, no harm...the best protection because no one can take it away from you AND it's FREE.

Why is it a qualified teacher will never tell you to pay for protection, but will always give you practices for protection? To purify your karma. Same concept with the Dalai Lama...he has no karma to be harmed so Dorje Shugden (even if he wanted to, which he doesnt!) can never harm him!

Karma karma karma karma KARMA. Jesus why is it so difficult for everyone to understand?

(soz, not had my morning tea yet. I know, its late)

Well-said Dharma Defender..it's KARMA baby..! All your points I agreed :)

I hate to repeat the important points from ALL the earlier posts but would like to list down those that are worth more than 2 cents for everyone to contemplate:

1. If we believe that HH the Dalai Lama is emanation of Chenresig/ Avalokitesvara, then no human, mara, spirit, demon or any other forces can harm him or shorten his life. He has no negative karma to be harmed. So this claim is not logical....

2. Well, if HHDL is Avalokitesvara, a Buddha, his mind is omniscient; similarly all his previous incarnations are also omniscient. Then how come his previous incarnations don't know Dorje Shugden is a harmful unenlightened spirit? Where is the logic?

3. Now assuming... IF HHDL can be harmed by DS that means he is not enlightened (this assumption is just for the sake of logical analysis); which also means he is not omniscient... then what HHDL said about DS should be wrong!

4. On the other hand, if DS is not enlightened then HHDL or other high lamas would not have problem to subdue him. Then there is no issue to ban his practice...

5. If DS is not an enlightened Dharmapala and harmful to practitioners and could shorten HHDL's life, all the highly acclaimed lamas including HHDL and his lineage gurus and tutors would not be doing DS practice; and they definitely would not pass this practice down to their students. For all Tibetans, HHDL is the highest ranked spiritual lama and the highest ranked political leader, so by logic, no other lamas would dare to do any practice that can harm HHDL and his life.