Author Topic: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!  (Read 24663 times)

Zach

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2012, 11:38:38 AM »
So what magical Terma did Dudjom receive this in then ?

Ensapa

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2012, 12:38:13 PM »
It is confirmed:

1. Dudjom Monastery which is right outside of Bodhanath stupa's gate on the main street still exists.

2. Dudjom Monastery has a public prayer hall. Within it's hall on view for the public is a statue of Dorje Drolod made of clay and fully painted. Around 3-3.5feet in height.

3. Dorje Drolod is stepping on Dorje Shugden. The monks say that Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche created this statue and built it before his death. It is not a fluke or misinterpretation of Tibetan art. It is definitely made on purpose to have Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden. It is confirmed.

4. Those who worship Drolod in this form will be protected from the harms of Shugden and his negative influence. As a result many go there to worship. I offered a khata also.

5. Right outside the monastery across the street there is a large photo shop. They sell pictures of Dudjom Rinpoche, HHDL, Sakya Trizin and pictures of any size of Drolod stepping on Shugden. Again, it is clearly being sold for those who wish protection from Shugden. Various photo shops and thangka sellers have Drolod stepping on Shugden available. Quite easy to obtain as are the chakras to protect you from Shugden. I purchased a picture.

6. Ex Shugden practitioners are compassionately given the opportunity to purchase this picture and worship to protect from the ill effects of Shugden the spirit.

7. The monks also told me in Parping or Pharphing is another Nyingmapa Monastery next to Tara Chapel  and nearby Guru Rinpoche's cave that houses a larger statue of Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden also. It is around 1 or 2 hours by taxi from Bodhanath here in Kathmandu.  I haven't visited.  But I will visit, if I get the time as I gotta get back to Dharamsala soon. When and if I get to this monastery, I'll do a post here.

This thread is absolutely correct that within the new Nyingmapa tradition headed by Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche, Dorje Drolod the wrathful aspect of Guru Rinpoche is stepping on the evil spirit Dorje Shugden.


Just because the majority does it out of trend or some religious fervor, does it automatically mean it is right? I don't think so. To me, they can make whatever imagery they want, it is up to them but for them to reap the negative repercussions of such actions would be interesting to see. Also, the fact that they are not harmed by Dorje Shugden shows that Dorje Shugden is not harmful.

It is very laughable that the Nyigmas need protection against Dorje Shugden because you won't be connected to him directly unless you are Gelug, unless the Nyigmas had done something bad towards the Gelug like teaching incorrect teachings that challenges or puts down the Gelug teachings. Even from the yellow book, it is very clear that Dorje Shugden only affects Gelugpas so what has it got to do with Nyigma? What is a Dharma center doing cashing on and promoting people's irrational fears?

Good for you to purchase a symbol of Nyigma's insecurity in their own practice, in their own teachings and in their lineage that they have to resort to finding fault with another lineage to make themselves feel better. I have seen the image in Pharping where Dorje Drollo is stepping on Dorje Shugden but the statue is very cartoonish and is a mockery of Dorje Drollo.

If I am not mistaken, the 16th Karmapa went to that temple and frowned upon that particular statue and said to them that they will need to depend on Dorje Shugden sooner or later. Time will tell if Dudjom Rinpoche will have to take down the statue personally when the time comes.

Zach

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2012, 06:40:57 PM »
Funny looks like the Nyingmas are now sectarian :D

ilikeshugden

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2012, 01:40:39 AM »

When I read this post, I felt sad but I also found it contradictory. I felt sad because it depicted Dorje Shugden being stepped on and this shows how intolerant some people can be. When I say that this picture was contradictory was because it showed a holy being stepping on another holy being. In the end, an enlightened mind is an enlightened mind, regardless of who is stepping on who. I humbly request for this image of Dorje Drolo to be escorted out of the place where it is now and be placed in a place where no one can see and feel angry or sad when looking at it. If they feel angry when looking at it, they will create bad karma as they are being angry at a holy being. This image also encourages schism as it is one school of Buddhism stepping on the enlightened Dharma Protector of another.

harrynephew

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2012, 04:09:20 PM »
Dear All

I found this picture from Facebook most graphic of them all. Not only they depict the monk being stepped on by the tiger but also the claws of the tiger ripping the intestines and other inner organs of the monks out.

I know we've discussed about not harming monks who are symbols of peace and happiness but the minute I looked at this one I just puked literally from my stomach. I really do not understand the basis of having this image in any single way!

change perspective and have ur own monks or your own people being stepped on and your internal organs clawed out, the only feeling is destruction and pain in itself!

such is the day and time of degeneration, monks being killed by Buddhist deities.....
Harry Nephew

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negra orquida

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2012, 05:25:18 PM »
This is a very informative thread, I've learnt a lot from the "debaters" here. Thank you!

Whilst I am very appalled by what is depicted in the thangka (even if i didn't know about Dorje Shugden, it would've been very disturbing to me to see a monk being stepped on) I see a silver lighting from this incident:

Quote
Karmapa was very angry when he saw this. He said, “Who made this? Where did this lineage come from? Show me the monk who did this.” He left the monastery very unhappy.

More than that, the Karmapa predicted then to the Nyingmas at the monastery, “You will have no choice in the future but to practice this protector; there will come a time when you need him" referring of course to Dorje Shugden.

Because of the thangka, the Karmapa pointed out the "malpractice" of the Nyingmas in terms of maintaining the authenticity of their thangkas, as well as predicting the future re the practice of Dorje Shugden.  I take this as a strong confirmation that it is just a matter of time that all schools of Buddhism will acknowledge and accept the power of Dorje Shugden and adopt his practice.

However, huge shame on whoever that is still reproducing the thangka even after Karmapa's comments.

Aurore

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2012, 06:20:16 PM »
oh my ... i wonder how many more paintings are there out there depicting such disrespectful image of a deity stepping on a monk. Whether the monk in the painting is meant to represent Dorje Shugden or not, the real issue to me is that not everyone will be aware that of its true intention. This was probably a secret joke which was intended to sent out specific messages to specific group of people. To the public's eye with no knowledge whatsoever, this paintings in any monasteries creates a bad image for themselves. A monastery which is full of monks need to be subdued by a Buddhist deity. Isn't that the impression it gives to people? Puzzling that this was not put into consideration.

Mana

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2012, 07:36:15 PM »
So what magical Terma did Dudjom receive this in then ?

Dudjom Rinpoche has been speaking out against Shugden since the early seventies. It's just what he said didn't take off on it's own.

He is known to dislike Shugden by everyone.

Zach

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2012, 10:04:24 PM »
So what magical Terma did Dudjom receive this in then ?

Dudjom Rinpoche has been speaking out against Shugden since the early seventies. It's just what he said didn't take off on it's own.

He is known to dislike Shugden by everyone.

True, problem is however if he has directly authorized the making of these images he must have received it must be some sort of terma or it wouldn't be a qualified image. Now from our POV what does this say about Dudjom Himself disrespecting enlightened beings in such a way ?

Vajraprotector

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2012, 10:09:04 PM »
I have seen old thangkas of Dorje Drolod, but not stepping on a monk. Here are images of some old thangkas from the olden times. I suspect the monk is a recent addition.

I wonder why the alteration and what blows my mind is still the anti-Shugden chakras. If the great masters and His Holiness himself can't get rid of Dorje Shugden, how can a small chakra work? But again, I am not surprise with the mentality of the community, the same whom today supports the ban blindly and created demand for such a chakra. 

1. From Eastern Tibet
Period: 1800 - 1899
Collection of Rubin Museum of Art


2. From Tibet
Period: 1800 - 1899
Collection of Tibet House Museum, New Delhi


3. From Central Tibet
Period: 1700 - 1799
Nyingma and Buddhist Lineages
Collection of Rubin Museum of Art

Galen

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2012, 02:50:19 PM »
So what magical Terma did Dudjom receive this in then ?

Dudjom Rinpoche has been speaking out against Shugden since the early seventies. It's just what he said didn't take off on it's own.

He is known to dislike Shugden by everyone.

True, problem is however if he has directly authorized the making of these images he must have received it must be some sort of terma or it wouldn't be a qualified image. Now from our POV what does this say about Dudjom Himself disrespecting enlightened beings in such a way ?

It says that Dudjom Rinpoche himself is acting on his own will and creating misunderstanding amongst practitioners. There were no evidence that before this with images depicting Dorje Shugden being stepped on. All pictures shown in this forum thread does not show it too. Must be something created and blindly followed by others.

Why would the 16th Karmapa feel very angry and left the Pharping monastery he is suppose to officiate when he saw Dorje shugden being stepped on. Even the Karmapa does not endorse it! I have been to the monastery in Pharping and the statue is in a glass cabinet, but the lower part of the glass cabinet is covered with a curtain.So, Dorje Shugden being stepped on is not visible unless you go near and looked above the curtain into the feet of the statue.  Therefore, for someone who goes to the monastery, without any knowledge of this phenomena, will not notice it. Maybe this is a way they are trying to make amends.

This is an clasic example of creating schiism in the Buddhist community. :(

Zach

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2012, 02:59:06 PM »
So what magical Terma did Dudjom receive this in then ?

Dudjom Rinpoche has been speaking out against Shugden since the early seventies. It's just what he said didn't take off on it's own.

He is known to dislike Shugden by everyone.

True, problem is however if he has directly authorized the making of these images he must have received it must be some sort of terma or it wouldn't be a qualified image. Now from our POV what does this say about Dudjom Himself disrespecting enlightened beings in such a way ?

It says that Dudjom Rinpoche himself is acting on his own will and creating misunderstanding amongst practitioners. There were no evidence that before this with images depicting Dorje Shugden being stepped on. All pictures shown in this forum thread does not show it too. Must be something created and blindly followed by others.

Why would the 16th Karmapa feel very angry and left the Pharping monastery he is suppose to officiate when he saw Dorje shugden being stepped on. Even the Karmapa does not endorse it! I have been to the monastery in Pharping and the statue is in a glass cabinet, but the lower part of the glass cabinet is covered with a curtain.So, Dorje Shugden being stepped on is not visible unless you go near and looked above the curtain into the feet of the statue.  Therefore, for someone who goes to the monastery, without any knowledge of this phenomena, will not notice it. Maybe this is a way they are trying to make amends.

This is an clasic example of creating schiism in the Buddhist community. :(

So its apparent that Dudjom is twisting Dharma and turning  a God into a demon so to speak.  :'(

Vajraprotector

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2012, 01:02:29 AM »
If it's personal preference or like/dislike of a protector, perhaps it is not such a big deal, but this is not the case.

I remember the admin posted this before, so I would like to repost here for everyone's reference:

While the Sixteenth Karmapa (the previous Karmapa) was on a pilgrimage in Nepal he stopped at Urgyen Rinpoche’s new monastery. At that time the Nepalese king and queen were there and came out to greet him with a scarf. When he went into the monastery there was a statue of Guru Dragpo with Dharmapala Shugden being pressed down under the statue’s feet. The Karmapa stood in the presence of the statue for awhile, then pointed his finger at it and asked “who is the person that said to build this statue? This isn’t Nyingma nor Sakya, certainly not Gelug and not Kagyu either. I didn’t say to build it, this is not one of the deities you can’t rely on.

Although the time is a little early in the future you will definitely need to rely on this deity.” Out of all the abbots and masters present not one came forward to answer. The Karmapa said “remove this now.” Immediately a person with an axe and shovel came and had to remove it. Many lamas present at that time definitely remember, a seventy five year old man from Chamdo called Samcho witnessed this event. - from Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche's sungbum


The first four pictures below are some pictures of the opening in 1976. Now, the founder of the monastery above is Kagyu, and the monastery was built under the direction of the 16th Karmapa, following the 'new treasures of Chokgyur Lingpa'.  Hence, the Karmapa has a "say" during the opening.  What does a Kagyu monastery have against a protector of another lineage? It seems rather odd.

The Nyingma monastery in Pharping, as far as I know, it only started building around 10 years ago and follows the Ripa lineage. I am not sure whether the Dorje Drolo is still stepping on a monk, but I have seen the initial drawings of the statues. I have included 2 drawings with the recent pictures below. If the Karmapa disapproved of the particular form, why is it still being made then (10 years back) and now?

I could be wrong, but perhaps this is just plain politics, especially in Nepal where all schools of Buddhism and monasteries are out there to compete for survival, earning tourist bucks and the support of local community is more important than real Buddhadharma? However, this does not justify the derogatory portrayal of another lineage's protector, definitely un-Buddhist? :-[ I hope the time that Karmapa's prophecised will come soon.

Big Uncle

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2012, 06:49:47 AM »
I think this does not bode well for the Nyingma tradition. How can one of their head Lamas think so negatively about such a powerful emanation? I have seen a statue of Dorje Drolo in Nepal as well and it is definitely Dorje Shugden because the statue I saw had a bloody snow lion along with the monk with the round hat.

This desecration may seemed extremely negative for practitioners of Dorje Shugden now but it will turn around and be the cause for Dorje Shugden to be practiced even by the Nyingmas as prophesied by the Karmapa. I am excited for that to happen as this might be a good way for Dorje Shugden to heal the rift between Nyingmas and Gelugs in the future especially when Dorje Shugden is no longer under the ban. I am excited because they will stop calling Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche a heretic and would finally clear the misconception about Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche sectarian views.

May these statues of Dorje Drolo be the cause for Dorje Shugden to spread among the Nyingmas and heal the sectarian rift between Gelugs and Nyingmas. May it bring mutual understanding and respect while each focus on their own tradition to strive towards enlightenment.

thor

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2012, 10:47:40 AM »
This is just nonsensical. Just like someone else has said on this thread, how can Dorje Drolo subdue Dorje Shugden when the greatest lamas of today cannot do so? Why doesnt Dudjom Rinpoche himself subdue Dorje Shugden? As a leader of the Nyingma tradition, surely he is powerful enough to subdue a supposed demon from another sect? Why didnt Mindrolling lama back in the time of the 5th Dalai Lama successfully subdue Dorje Shugden when he was supposed to be the best in rituals at that time? Is Guru Rinpoche fighting with Tsongkapa?

This is just complete and utter nonsense. Dudjom Rinpoche of course knows that such anti-shugden chakras and protectors stepping on monks do not work. As to why he is doing it, I do not know, but I hope he has a good reason to do so, as there is no logical basis for it.

Oh by the way, I have in my possession a Dorje Shugden Chakra. What would happen if I put it next to one of these anti-shugden chakras I wonder?