Author Topic: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!  (Read 24649 times)

Namdrol

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2012, 05:04:08 PM »
More paintings of Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden, these need to be exposed because I am sure many practitioners of these Dharma centers that have these offensive paintings are not even aware of it, they have to be informed how sacrilegious it is to have their protector stepping on Manjushri:

Pic 1: Thekchhog Kunzang Chhodon Nunnery - Bhutan, supported by Singapore Dudjom Dharma House: http://singaporedudjomdharmahouse.blogspot.com/2010/05/wall-thangkas.html

Pic 2: This one even has the monk's guts torn out, very disgusting: http://fineartamerica.com/featured/1-dudjoms-dorje-drollo-sergey-noskov.html


DharmaSpace

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2012, 03:53:56 PM »
Just because a picture is made of Dorje Drollo stepping on Dorje Shugden it does not make it so. Dorje Shugden is an enlightened dharma protector, I am not so sure about Dorje Drollo. I do not know what benefit it is or Dudjom Rinpoche to create pictures of Dorje Drollo stepping on Dorje Shugden, how can can stepping on a monk be spiritual oh my.  Dorje Drollo stepping on Dorje Shugden is definitely a new development, Dorje Shugden did not manifest till 350 years ago. Guru Rinpoche and Lama Tsongkhapa is the same mindstream, how can they fight? How can Nyingma go against Gelug and vice versa.

Dudjom Rinpoche created anti shugden chakra and Dorje Drollo stepping on Dorje Shugden
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1195.0

kris

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2012, 08:29:57 PM »
I am very sad and shocked seeing the images of monk be stepped on. In Buddhism, it is about taking refuge in the 3 jewels, and one of them is the Sangha, and now they are stepping on him. :(

I know there are people who do not believe in Dorje Shugden, but that doesn't mean you can and should put him down. Just for example, I don't believe in Jesus, it doesn't mean I should put him down and draw something to step on him. How would Christian feel if they ever see images like that?

Likewise, other religions may not agree on, say, Kuan Yin. Does it mean they should draw images to step on Kuan Yin? How would you feel if you believe in Kuan Yin.

It just make me feel sad, but my belief in Dorje Shugden is never moved...

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2012, 10:46:09 PM »
How do we know that the monk-figure in these paintings is actually DS and not merely some artistic presentation of a "monk-in-general"? It is not evident to me.

(If a Nyingmapa Protector, in a picture, tramples on a naked body and a monk, it merely reflects the teaching that points between hedonism and puritanism. And that by the way is not any nyingma heresy, but a teaching that can be found in classical sources too.)

Was there a specific mention in those pictures that the monk is DS, or was the image of a "hatted monk" merely used as a paradigm of a monk, or was the artist thinking of just a "monk"? How was it? I do hope we do not start to blame the Nyingmapas for our own lack of art-education.

thaimonk

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2012, 11:06:28 PM »
When I travelled in Nepal where this art originates from (Dudjom Temple in Bodhanath), they were heavily selling this picture of Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden. Being a foreigner and not Tibetan, they were not suspicious with my questions. But I saw the statue in Dudjom Monastery with my own eyes. It was around three feet in height and clearly stepping on Dorje Shugden with his domed hat. It was created by Dudjom Rinpoche.  They also sell pictures of this again stressing Dudjom Rinpoche created this. They had picture taken from original thangkas of Shugden being stepped on as you see on this thread. They proudly declared exactly who was being stepped on. No mistakes here! I have travelled to Nepal over 6 times already and visited this Monastery twice along with other Nyingma Monsteries with Dorje Shugden stepped on by Dorje Drolod. The monks tell me Dorje Drolod (wrathful Guru Rinpoche) is very effective to repel Shugden's evil harm. I obtained a chakra also.

Also Dudjom Rinpoche created anti-Dorje Shugden talism (chakras) to be worn by those afraid of harm from Shugden. Again these chakras were beings old all over Bodha near the stupa, from Dudjom Monastery and a few other Nyingmapa Monasteries. Even a few Tibetan owned stores sold this chakra and proudly told us it is to ward off the harm by Shugden. Many monks were wearing this chakra, when we asked, again they said this is a chakra to ward off harm from Shugden. I was taken aback at the same time amused.

No Tibetan Deity ever steps on a monk. Monks are not represented by being stepped on as it is highly inauspicious. You do not step on sangha in Tibetan iconography as it is highly improper. Name another deity that steps on a monk? Only Dorje Drolod as created by Dudjom Rinpoche and no one else. Google older thangkas of Dorje Drolod or read his original text in Tibetan describing his body, mounts, color and description. It is clear he did not step on Shugden or did not have any monk described as being trampled upon.

It is not that any of us are lacking in art-education, but I am witness with my own eyes to Dudjom Monastery depicting Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden. Their own monks mention this clearly when visiting the monastery.

Gangchen Rinpoche household monks in Nepal also clearly explained Dudjom Monastery created a statue of Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden. And in the Bodha area, pictures of Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden as well as chakras are being sold. Many are buying them and snatching them up.



Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2012, 11:54:31 PM »
As for somebody producing a stupid work, and others repeating it (because of faith in the Lama) I admit it is a possibility.

I nevertheless maintain, that the different Nyingma-schools are largely non-monastic, and for them, a monk can be used as a mere symbol. In that sort of setting, the saffron-robes are not an icon of veneration, but more likely a symbol of "renunciate non-tantric ways" - hence, an extreme to be avoided, and thereby trampled by the Protector in question. Here, monks exist as mere symbols, you see.

But of all the many "alarming" pics here, was the monk really DS or not? (I say not.)

Stop seeing shadows.

thaimonk

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2012, 10:54:28 AM »
As for somebody producing a stupid work, and others repeating it (because of faith in the Lama) I admit it is a possibility.

I nevertheless maintain, that the different Nyingma-schools are largely non-monastic, and for them, a monk can be used as a mere symbol. In that sort of setting, the saffron-robes are not an icon of veneration, but more likely a symbol of "renunciate non-tantric ways" - hence, an extreme to be avoided, and thereby trampled by the Protector in question. Here, monks exist as mere symbols, you see.

But of all the many "alarming" pics here, was the monk really DS or not? (I say not.)

Stop seeing shadows.

Nyingmas all see Shakyamuni as a monk. They see Shantideva as a monk. They accept the great masters such as Candragomin, Aryadeva, Nagarjuna as pure saffron monks. Penor Rinpoche and Tulshik Rinpoche were very senior lamas of the Nyingma sect and they were pure monks till the end.  Google them. They also ordained monks and gave monk vows. To say the Nyingmas see monks as mere symbols is wrong assertion. Nyingmas have both monastics and lay practitioners. They have both special traditons. Nyingmas respect monks and understand monk vows very well. In Penor Rinpoche's monastery in South India, they engage in monk confessions (sojong) monthly just as they do in Sera, Gaden and Drepung.

These pictures are of Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden as this comes from the Dudjom new lineage texts as propagated in Nepal by Dudjom Monastery. This is what they say not what I say.

Before you assert I am seeing shadows, go visit Dudjom Monastery and talk to them yourself as I did. Walk around and ask the stores around Bodha for a picture of Drolod stepping on Shugden or easily purchase a anti-shugden chakra.

No one is seeing shadows.
 

yontenjamyang

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2012, 10:58:59 AM »
It is because of ego and the resulting fear that such depiction is accepted, believed to be effective and sold. Because of beings ignorance and misunderstanding that it is even acceptable for some. This overrides the respect that should be accorded to monks, much more if the being being stepped on is highly propitiated by others. How degenerate are these times!

Lamas that do this are just mirroring what we are. If we have the sense not to do that and show respect then it shows we are slightly better off. If they do not respect us, they best thing to do is for us to respect them and show them we are good human beings. It doesn't hurt us as we have faith and we are not affected. We thrive on adversity become an even better person.

Om Benza Wiki Bitana Soha!

Ensapa

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2012, 02:58:54 PM »
Nyigmapas originally did not have a monastic system. They were based entirely on ngakpas or lay practitioners. This is the reason why Atisha started the Kadampa tradition which reinstated the monastic tradition in Tibet. So I guess, it is not unusual for them to disrespect the sangha. The current monastic tradition that they have is adopted from the Kadams and not from Guru Rinpoche's time.

At the same time, this imagery is a very clear indication of the degeneration of their lineage. Is it necessary to be so fearful of a "spirit", so insecure that you would have to make so much protection against it? Isn't relying on Guru Rinpoche enough to keep "him" away since Guru Rinpoche is the one who subdued all of the really powerful spirits of ancient Tibet? Are they losing faith in their own lineage that they have to show such blatant insecurity?

But all the same, what thaimonk said makes sense. It is very inauspicious to put down the robes of a monk. Even in other Buddhist traditions, the devotees are taught to respect anyone who dons the robes of the monk, not to the person but out of respect to the robes, which is symbolic of renunciation. Robes of an ordained person are also known as the banner of the arahats. So to desecrate the robes this way is another message that they send out to people: don't respect the sangha.

They think, that they are destroying Dorje Shugden when they are in fact digging their own grave because ordinary lay people would automatically associate robes with monks and to see that imagery is to send them the message to not support the sangha as Dorje Drollo is more powerful than them. So those are in reality chakras that cause them to disrespect the sangha.

Tenzin Gyatso

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2012, 07:14:23 PM »
I just arrived in Kathmandu last week. My second visit here. Was a long ride from Delhi though. Was busy travelling and settling in to Kathmandu.  Gotta return to Dharamsala next week though as teachings by the Geshe at Tibetan Library starting next week. Can't miss that.

While I am here though, I will visit the Dudjom Monastery in Bodhanath near the huge stupa and see for myself about this statue of Drolod stepping on Shugden. If it still exists, that is good. To have a statue of wrathful Guru Rinpoche (drolod) stepping on Shugden would make everyone feel safer and protected. As Guru Rinpoche is famed for subjugating so many powerful spirits and supernatural forces, he would be the perfect being to tame Shugden and perhaps make Shugden take a oath of no harm.

Perhaps if Dorje Drolod forced Shugden into an oath of not harming, then it would be safe to engage in Shugden practice like Nechung. Once long ago when Nechung swoar an oath, he became cool. He became helpul. He became the right hand man of HHDL.

Shugden should take an oath. Nyingmas are really ahead of the game as I see it.




Zach

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2012, 08:36:49 PM »
I just arrived in Kathmandu last week. My second visit here. Was a long ride from Delhi though. Was busy travelling and settling in to Kathmandu.  Gotta return to Dharamsala next week though as teachings by the Geshe at Tibetan Library starting next week. Can't miss that.

While I am here though, I will visit the Dudjom Monastery in Bodhanath near the huge stupa and see for myself about this statue of Drolod stepping on Shugden. If it still exists, that is good. To have a statue of wrathful Guru Rinpoche (drolod) stepping on Shugden would make everyone feel safer and protected. As Guru Rinpoche is famed for subjugating so many powerful spirits and supernatural forces, he would be the perfect being to tame Shugden and perhaps make Shugden take a oath of no harm.

Perhaps if Dorje Drolod forced Shugden into an oath of not harming, then it would be safe to engage in Shugden practice like Nechung. Once long ago when Nechung swoar an oath, he became cool. He became helpul. He became the right hand man of HHDL.

Shugden should take an oath. Nyingmas are really ahead of the game as I see it.

Tenzin ? How many Puja's have already been done to try and subdue Dorje Shugden they didn't work when the great Nyingma masters during the 5th Dalai lama's time tried and greatly renowned masters have been trying since. Do you know of any spirits who can resist Tantric binding or destruction rituals at the hands of accomplished masters is it written in Kangyur or Tengyur that there is a class of spirit who can resist enlightened activity ?

Now if Dorje Shugden was really dangerous and vengeful as some repeat then being able to resist enlightened activity he'd come and crush those who toy with him. But having seen him through the oracles he seems pretty gracious and content to not do such.

whitelion

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2012, 03:24:31 PM »
This is hilarious and doesn't make sense at all... Why is DorjeShugden  so "special" that people would create a chakra just to destroy him?why would people  create a statue just to prove DS is evil or a demon that can besubdued by Dorje Drolo? What does DS symbolize in this thangka or statue? The mostpowerful demon in the world? Or that this "demon" is that so strong that it can’t be “killed” by anyone but  Dorje Drolo?

 

I wouldn't promote  to the public if I’m able control a 2-year-old baby, because everybody can easily do that. But if I’m able to subduethe most powerful person of the world, I would make sure the whole world knowsabout it. Hence, does it means Dorje Shugden is the most powerful deity of all lineage?By “subduing” DS or placing him under Dorje Drolo’s feet - would that make Dorje Drolothe most excellent?

 

If this image of Dorje Drolo is authentic, then Dromo GesheRinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche are wrong. We all know that we need to visualiseourselves as one with the meditation deity when we doing practise ormeditation.

 

One of Dromo Geshe Rinpoche main practice is Guru Rinpocheand it started since the time of the previous Dromo Geshe Rinpoche. Dromo Rinpoche is alsoone of the world's most well known DS practitioners. Does it mean that when Dromo Rinpochedoes his Guru Rinpoche practise, he needs to visualize himself being steppeddown by himself?

 

If the gurus of HHDL are wrong too, who has the confidence tosay they are 100% authentic? Unless this person is much more attained than the tutorof HHDL!


 

Ensapa

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2012, 04:05:43 PM »
I just arrived in Kathmandu last week. My second visit here. Was a long ride from Delhi though. Was busy travelling and settling in to Kathmandu.  Gotta return to Dharamsala next week though as teachings by the Geshe at Tibetan Library starting next week. Can't miss that.

While I am here though, I will visit the Dudjom Monastery in Bodhanath near the huge stupa and see for myself about this statue of Drolod stepping on Shugden. If it still exists, that is good. To have a statue of wrathful Guru Rinpoche (drolod) stepping on Shugden would make everyone feel safer and protected. As Guru Rinpoche is famed for subjugating so many powerful spirits and supernatural forces, he would be the perfect being to tame Shugden and perhaps make Shugden take a oath of no harm.

Perhaps if Dorje Drolod forced Shugden into an oath of not harming, then it would be safe to engage in Shugden practice like Nechung. Once long ago when Nechung swoar an oath, he became cool. He became helpul. He became the right hand man of HHDL.

Shugden should take an oath. Nyingmas are really ahead of the game as I see it.

Hahaha thats a really funny one. If Dorje Drollo could put Dorje Shugden in an oath, don't you think it would have happened 350 years ago? Why do you think he left Dorje Shugden alone for the last 300 years? Wouldn't he be able to bound him with an oath by now? Can enlightened beings bind another enlightened being or suppress another Buddha? I don't think so.

Do we see Yamantaka squashing Manjushri in one of his hands to show his superiority over Buddhas? Does Vajrayogini step on Tara and Avalokitesvara to show her superiority? No. Because Buddhas do not need to control or subjugate another Buddha. So the Dorje Drollo iconography is just plain funny. At the feet of Yamantaka, Chakrasamvara and Vajrayogini, They are not stepping on the beings but those beings offer themselves as cushions to their feet, to depict Dorje Drollo as suppressing or stepping on a hated enemy is not even Buddhist to start with.

Ultimately, the imagery shows that the nyigmas are fearful of the Gelugpas to the point where they need to have such imagery. Its just to appeal to weak minds and to make them feel secure that their lineage is not under threat from the Gelugpas. If they were really confident of their own lineage, do they need to resort to such imagery? It is just a blatant expression of fear.

The nyigmas are not ahead of the game at all if they have to resort to such means for self assurance. Rather, they know they are weak and instead of strengthening themselves, they make their biggest rival look small. Its a rather pointless strategy because its just an illusion rather than something real. Why not prove their superiority by having an equally powerful Dharma protector rather than getting jealous?

rossoneri

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2012, 11:18:49 AM »
Totally understand the meaning behind of having statue of Dorje Drolo stepping on a monk which supposed to represent Dorje Shugden Himself. Dorje Drolo is a wrathful manifestation of Guru Rinpoche who is famous for His ability to subjugate demons and spirits in order to direct them into the path of Buddhism eg. Nechung.

Whomever in Nyingma Monastery in Nepal order to do this very much for sure he is an Anti Shugden practitioner. Of course they can do so much in order to promote Anti Shugden Campaign or being sectarian but Dorje Shugden will never be suppressed by them by just creating those "Thangkas" & "Statues". If Dorje Shugden really a "demon", why the master of subjugating demons (Lama Mindrolling) during 5th Dalai Lama period failed to do so?

Dorje Shugden will never harm those behind this, but unfortunately it'll generate a negative karma for them because of this behaviour.

Tenzin Gyatso

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Re: Another center depicting Dorje Drolo stepping on Shugden!
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2012, 07:03:13 AM »
I just arrived in Kathmandu last week. My second visit here. Was a long ride from Delhi though. Was busy travelling and settling in to Kathmandu.  Gotta return to Dharamsala next week though as teachings by the Geshe at Tibetan Library starting next week. Can't miss that.

While I am here though, I will visit the Dudjom Monastery in Bodhanath near the huge stupa and see for myself about this statue of Drolod stepping on Shugden. If it still exists, that is good. To have a statue of wrathful Guru Rinpoche (drolod) stepping on Shugden would make everyone feel safer and protected. As Guru Rinpoche is famed for subjugating so many powerful spirits and supernatural forces, he would be the perfect being to tame Shugden and perhaps make Shugden take a oath of no harm.

Perhaps if Dorje Drolod forced Shugden into an oath of not harming, then it would be safe to engage in Shugden practice like Nechung. Once long ago when Nechung swoar an oath, he became cool. He became helpul. He became the right hand man of HHDL.

Shugden should take an oath. Nyingmas are really ahead of the game as I see it.


It is confirmed:

1. Dudjom Monastery which is right outside of Bodhanath stupa's gate on the main street still exists.

2. Dudjom Monastery has a public prayer hall. Within it's hall on view for the public is a statue of Dorje Drolod made of clay and fully painted. Around 3-3.5feet in height.

3. Dorje Drolod is stepping on Dorje Shugden. The monks say that Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche created this statue and built it before his death. It is not a fluke or misinterpretation of Tibetan art. It is definitely made on purpose to have Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden. It is confirmed.

4. Those who worship Drolod in this form will be protected from the harms of Shugden and his negative influence. As a result many go there to worship. I offered a khata also.

5. Right outside the monastery across the street there is a large photo shop. They sell pictures of Dudjom Rinpoche, HHDL, Sakya Trizin and pictures of any size of Drolod stepping on Shugden. Again, it is clearly being sold for those who wish protection from Shugden. Various photo shops and thangka sellers have Drolod stepping on Shugden available. Quite easy to obtain as are the chakras to protect you from Shugden. I purchased a picture.

6. Ex Shugden practitioners are compassionately given the opportunity to purchase this picture and worship to protect from the ill effects of Shugden the spirit.

7. The monks also told me in Parping or Pharphing is another Nyingmapa Monastery next to Tara Chapel  and nearby Guru Rinpoche's cave that houses a larger statue of Dorje Drolod stepping on Shugden also. It is around 1 or 2 hours by taxi from Bodhanath here in Kathmandu.  I haven't visited.  But I will visit, if I get the time as I gotta get back to Dharamsala soon. When and if I get to this monastery, I'll do a post here.

This thread is absolutely correct that within the new Nyingmapa tradition headed by Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche, Dorje Drolod the wrathful aspect of Guru Rinpoche is stepping on the evil spirit Dorje Shugden.