Author Topic: A complete shame.  (Read 3261 times)

Ensapa

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A complete shame.
« on: May 02, 2013, 03:19:47 AM »
I found this rime prayer written by Orgyen Trinley where he supplicates the 5 founding fathers of each Vajrayana Buddhist tradition, and it is indeed saddening to see that Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, who is one of Lama Tsongkhapa's heart sons and also the one who actually built Ganden Monastery being conveniently forgotten in this prayer when he should be in it.

HH 17th Karmapa Supplication to the Twenty-Five Chariots (The video's owner prevents external embedding)

If it was not for Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, Ganden monastery would not have existed and if it didnt exist, then there would be no Gelugpa today as there wouldnt have been a seat where the teachings could have taken root and spreaded so it's sad to see how Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen and his subsequent incarnations are chucked out of the picture....sigh.

Rinchen

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Re: A complete shame.
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2013, 08:44:00 PM »
Yes, I do not understand why is Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen just being "forgotten" like that. Does it mean that he has not done anything for the Gelugpas?

Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen has done so much for the Gelug lineage. He even agreed to become an uncommon protector just to protect Lord Tsongkhapa's teaching and lineage. His intents are so pure, yet he is not being recognized. It is just so sad to see that such great lamas are just "forgotten" because they are Dorje Shugden's previous life emanations, people choose to conveniently "forget" him to get into the good books of Dalai Lama.

It is just so sad what the world has become now, to defame something just to get into the good books of something else. The worst part is that what they are defaming is an enlighted uncommon protector of our time, Dorje Shugden.

Ensapa

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Re: A complete shame.
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2013, 01:41:59 AM »
Yes, I do not understand why is Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen just being "forgotten" like that. Does it mean that he has not done anything for the Gelugpas?

Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen has done so much for the Gelug lineage. He even agreed to become an uncommon protector just to protect Lord Tsongkhapa's teaching and lineage. His intents are so pure, yet he is not being recognized. It is just so sad to see that such great lamas are just "forgotten" because they are Dorje Shugden's previous life emanations, people choose to conveniently "forget" him to get into the good books of Dalai Lama.

It is just so sad what the world has become now, to defame something just to get into the good books of something else. The worst part is that what they are defaming is an enlighted uncommon protector of our time, Dorje Shugden.

I'm very unhappy with the prayer actually as it is very tilted when it comes to the Gelug portion. Duldzin Drakpa Gyaltsen should be there instead of Panchen Chokyi Gyaltsen because his previous incarnation is already listed in the prayer and then he is praised again as if he was a filler for someone that was supposed to be there. Granted that this prayer was not composed by a Gelug, but somehow it also shows how selective and how little these people know about the Gelug lineage and at the same time, how discriminative they can be.

Rinchen

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Re: A complete shame.
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2013, 08:20:29 PM »
I'm very unhappy with the prayer actually as it is very tilted when it comes to the Gelug portion. Duldzin Drakpa Gyaltsen should be there instead of Panchen Chokyi Gyaltsen because his previous incarnation is already listed in the prayer and then he is praised again as if he was a filler for someone that was supposed to be there. Granted that this prayer was not composed by a Gelug, but somehow it also shows how selective and how little these people know about the Gelug lineage and at the same time, how discriminative they can be.

I believe that the prayer is written by some one that is not of the Gelug lineage, and the person does not even know the fully controversy of the ban. He/she has been brain washed with the news from the Dalai Lama and the CTA, they have not done their own research at all. It is totally unfair to remove such a great master that built Gaden Shartse. The one who built the temple for Je Tsongkapa's lineage to grow. 

Blueupali

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Re: A complete shame.
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2013, 08:32:53 PM »
I found this rime prayer written by Orgyen Trinley where he supplicates the 5 founding fathers of each Vajrayana Buddhist tradition, and it is indeed saddening to see that Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, who is one of Lama Tsongkhapa's heart sons and also the one who actually built Ganden Monastery being conveniently forgotten in this prayer when he should be in it.

HH 17th Karmapa Supplication to the Twenty-Five Chariots

If it was not for Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, Ganden monastery would not have existed and if it didnt exist, then there would be no Gelugpa today as there wouldnt have been a seat where the teachings could have taken root and spreaded so it's sad to see how Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen and his subsequent incarnations are chucked out of the picture....sigh.


Hello Ensapa,
  I looked at the link, but I wasn't clear if Orgen Thrinley was the author or was he just singing the prayer and some other author actually wrote it?  I just am wondering.

Big Uncle

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Re: A complete shame.
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2013, 02:07:37 PM »
I guess you guys didn't read the accompanying description box under the video. Apparently, the prayer was composed by the Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo, which according to the description is a Rime lama and not the Karmapa. The Karmapa merely chanted this prayer. The lama that composed this prayer is highly attained and he was the predecessor of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I personally think he probably didn't know Gelug masters and their contribution enough to have included Duldzin Drakpa Gyeltsen. Well, actually, I would not pick Duldzin Drakpa Gyeltsen...

According to the lamas he praised, which are Lama Tsongkhapa, Gyaltsab Je, Kedrup Je, Gendun Drub and Panchen Chokyi Gyeltsen, I would have praised a slightly different set of lamas. My list would include Lama Tsongkhapa, Khedrup Je, Panchen Sonam Drakpa, Ngawang Lobsang Gyatso and Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. They are all emanations of Buddhas here and highly highly attained but I would pick other lamas like Panchen Sonam Drakpa because in his one lifetime, he defined the spiritual curriculum of the monastery and his writing gave birth to numerous Geshes, highly attained Tulkus and great masters across centuries.

I would also picked Ngawang Lobsang Gyatso or the Great Fifth Dalai Lama over his predecessor, Gendun Drub because in that lifetime, he unified Tibet and established peace so Gelug tradition could survive and eliminated adversaries who were threatening the Gelugpas at very crucial moment in Gelug history. Although outwardly he seemed worldly but inwardly this incarnation of the Dalai Lama was fiercely compassionate. Finally, I picked Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen mainly because he sacrificed his human body to become Dorje Shugden and protected so many to this day including you and me. Those would be the lamas I would praise. There are many other highly attained Gelug lamas but I think the contribution of these lamas to my knowledge seemed to eclipse the others. 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 02:09:52 PM by Big Uncle »

Blueupali

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Re: A complete shame.
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2013, 02:42:06 PM »
I guess you guys didn't read the accompanying description box under the video. Apparently, the prayer was composed by the Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo, which according to the description is a Rime lama and not the Karmapa. The Karmapa merely chanted this prayer. The lama that composed this prayer is highly attained and he was the predecessor of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I personally think he probably didn't know Gelug masters and their contribution enough to have included Duldzin Drakpa Gyeltsen. Well, actually, I would not pick Duldzin Drakpa Gyeltsen...

According to the lamas he praised, which are Lama Tsongkhapa, Gyaltsab Je, Kedrup Je, Gendun Drub and Panchen Chokyi Gyeltsen, I would have praised a slightly different set of lamas. My list would include Lama Tsongkhapa, Khedrup Je, Panchen Sonam Drakpa, Ngawang Lobsang Gyatso and Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. They are all emanations of Buddhas here and highly highly attained but I would pick other lamas like Panchen Sonam Drakpa because in his one lifetime, he defined the spiritual curriculum of the monastery and his writing gave birth to numerous Geshes, highly attained Tulkus and great masters across centuries.

I would also picked Ngawang Lobsang Gyatso or the Great Fifth Dalai Lama over his predecessor, Gendun Drub because in that lifetime, he unified Tibet and established peace so Gelug tradition could survive and eliminated adversaries who were threatening the Gelugpas at very crucial moment in Gelug history. Although outwardly he seemed worldly but inwardly this incarnation of the Dalai Lama was fiercely compassionate. Finally, I picked Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen mainly because he sacrificed his human body to become Dorje Shugden and protected so many to this day including you and me. Those would be the lamas I would praise. There are many other highly attained Gelug lamas but I think the contribution of these lamas to my knowledge seemed to eclipse the others.


Touche Big Uncle:).  Well, actually I did read the accompanying description, but I was not clear whether the Rime lama had written just the prayer that was in quotes on the page or the one that Urgen Trinley was chanting. 
 At any rate, I would definitely pick Je Tsongkapa in the prayers and Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen as you also say but I would not pick the "great" 5th Dalai Lama.  While it is possible that anyone could be a Buddha, and while it is possible that the great 5th beheaded a bunch of Kagyus and had 7000 more Kagyus killed as part of some very highly backwards-teaching Buddha activity, and while it is possible that a Buddha acting in reverse psychology or showing us what not to do might have forced the 10th Karmapa to go into exile, I think relatively speaking, for beings not to be confused, the best thing is not to include the 5th Dalai Lama. The 5th Dalai Lama at least appeared very sectarian, and his killing of Kagyus and anti-Karmapaness might make Kagyus feel very excluded in a Rime prayer. I also think the fifth DL's anti-Shugdenness for most of his life would make some Shugden practioners upset, for instance me.  Two relative strikes against the 5th DL from my perspective.
  For imprints on the Karmapa (Thaye Dorje) and his Rime activity, please visit:
 http://www.karmapa.org/news/pewar_2010.htm

 Both recognitions could be Karmapas, but some people resonate more with one or the other.
 

Rihanna

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Re: A complete shame.
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2013, 04:32:15 AM »
CTA! Are you incharge of politics or religion? If you are Tibetan Govt in exile, then don't mix politics with religion. Stay out of it as you are meddling in thousands of beings spiritual path!

Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen should be included and not ignored for Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen has contributed a lot for the Gelugpas. First and foremost, it was Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen who agreed to become the protector with the pure motivation of protecting Lord Tsongkhapa's teachings and lineage. Your action is disrespectful ,unfair, political and distasteful for a government who is fighting for righteousness for losing your own country but at the same time suppressing the spiritual right of your own people. How hypocritical.

dsiluvu

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Re: A complete shame.
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2013, 12:35:21 PM »
I guess you guys didn't read the accompanying description box under the video. Apparently, the prayer was composed by the Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo, which according to the description is a Rime lama and not the Karmapa. The Karmapa merely chanted this prayer. The lama that composed this prayer is highly attained and he was the predecessor of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I personally think he probably didn't know Gelug masters and their contribution enough to have included Duldzin Drakpa Gyeltsen. Well, actually, I would not pick Duldzin Drakpa Gyeltsen...

According to the lamas he praised, which are Lama Tsongkhapa, Gyaltsab Je, Kedrup Je, Gendun Drub and Panchen Chokyi Gyeltsen, I would have praised a slightly different set of lamas. My list would include Lama Tsongkhapa, Khedrup Je, Panchen Sonam Drakpa, Ngawang Lobsang Gyatso and Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. They are all emanations of Buddhas here and highly highly attained but I would pick other lamas like Panchen Sonam Drakpa because in his one lifetime, he defined the spiritual curriculum of the monastery and his writing gave birth to numerous Geshes, highly attained Tulkus and great masters across centuries.

I would also picked Ngawang Lobsang Gyatso or the Great Fifth Dalai Lama over his predecessor, Gendun Drub because in that lifetime, he unified Tibet and established peace so Gelug tradition could survive and eliminated adversaries who were threatening the Gelugpas at very crucial moment in Gelug history. Although outwardly he seemed worldly but inwardly this incarnation of the Dalai Lama was fiercely compassionate. Finally, I picked Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen mainly because he sacrificed his human body to become Dorje Shugden and protected so many to this day including you and me. Those would be the lamas I would praise. There are many other highly attained Gelug lamas but I think the contribution of these lamas to my knowledge seemed to eclipse the others.


Touche Big Uncle:).  Well, actually I did read the accompanying description, but I was not clear whether the Rime lama had written just the prayer that was in quotes on the page or the one that Urgen Trinley was chanting. 
 At any rate, I would definitely pick Je Tsongkapa in the prayers and Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen as you also say but I would not pick the "great" 5th Dalai Lama.  While it is possible that anyone could be a Buddha, and while it is possible that the great 5th beheaded a bunch of Kagyus and had 7000 more Kagyus killed as part of some very highly backwards-teaching Buddha activity, and while it is possible that a Buddha acting in reverse psychology or showing us what not to do might have forced the 10th Karmapa to go into exile, I think relatively speaking, for beings not to be confused, the best thing is not to include the 5th Dalai Lama. The 5th Dalai Lama at least appeared very sectarian, and his killing of Kagyus and anti-Karmapaness might make Kagyus feel very excluded in a Rime prayer. I also think the fifth DL's anti-Shugdenness for most of his life would make some Shugden practioners upset, for instance me.  Two relative strikes against the 5th DL from my perspective.
  For imprints on the Karmapa (Thaye Dorje) and his Rime activity, please visit:
 http://www.karmapa.org/news/pewar_2010.htm

 Both recognitions could be Karmapas, but some people resonate more with one or the other.
 


Really beheaded a bunch of Kagyus??? Wow... so if His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama now says he is just "continuing" his work from the 5th Dalai Lama... isn't that quite crazy???

Well if His Holiness did do something dramatically wrong and bad and broken his vows... he would be in hell by now no? He would not be back... sorry side tracked a bit!



Blueupali

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Re: A complete shame.
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2013, 05:58:52 AM »
Hello dsiluvu,
  You said, "Really beheaded a bunch of Kagyus??? Wow... so if His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama now says he is just "continuing" his work from the 5th Dalai Lama... isn't that quite crazy???

Well if His Holiness did do something dramatically wrong and bad and broken his vows... he would be in hell by now no? He would not be back... sorry side tracked a bit!

Okay, so I am not commenting on whether the 5th Dalai Lama and the 14th are one mental continuum, but saying the 'great' 5th was enlightened is a bit of imagination, I think.  Please reference:
http://www.karmapa-issue.org/arguments.htm
 
It's an open letter to the Dalai Lama from the Kagyu Conference in Nepal, March 2001.  Shamar Rinpoche gave a talk about the 5th Dalai Lama at the conference, some of which is included in the letter:
17.03.03 I
    An Open letter to His Holiness the Dalai Lama

Your Holiness,
An International Karma Kagyu Conference was held in Kathmandu, Nepal, on 16th and 17th of March, 2001. Delegates representing over five hundred monasteries and centers of the Karma Kagyu Lineage from around the world attended.The conference was expressly convened to address the present crisis within the Karma Kagyu lineage. A unanimous resolution was passed to declare our school's determination to reject any interference from outside the Karma Kagyu lineage regarding the process of recognition and enthronement of the Karmapas and to protect the authentic transmission of the Karma Kagyu Lineage.

At the heart of the Karma Kagyu lineage's existence lies its
own fundamental right to recognize the Karmapa, the spiritual leader of the lineage. This must be done in accordance with the genuine, spiritual custom of the Karma Kagyu lineage and without interference from outside the lineage. Traditionally the Black-Hat and the Red-Hat Karmapas have recognized and enthroned each other's incarnations. History shows that the present crisis is rooted in the past. For centuries, the Gelugpa lineage of the Dalai Lamas and the Karma Kagyu lineage of the Gyalwa Karmapas have been locked in a struggle.
The conflict started as early as the fifteenth century, at the time of the Seventh Karmapa and Fourth Shamarpa. This coincided with a period during which the Tibetan government was controlled by the Kagyupas. Hostilities peaked in 1638 when the Fifth Dalai Lama invited the Mongolian army under Goshir Khan to invade Tibet. The Gelugpa and Mongol alliance was subsequently responsible for the death by decapitation of virtually all abbots from one thousand Karma Kagyu monasteries. All these monasteries were converted to the Gelugpa order by force. The Tenth Karmapa's camp came under attack and over seven thousand of his monks were slaughtered. Only Karmapa and his attendant managed to escape. The Karmapa was forced to stay in exile for the next forty years.
Two centuries later the struggle escalated further during the regency period between the Seventh and Eighth Dalai Lamas. Tenpai Goenpo, a Gelugpa minister, took the opportunity to permanently remove the Shamar Rinpoche from the religious scene in Tibet. In spite of having mediated in the war between Nepal and Tibet-China, the Ching-Emperor of China declared him a traitor and all his monasteries were forcibly converted to the Gelugpa order. An edict banning Shamarpa's future incarnations was proclaimed.

In 1959 came the demise of Tibet at the hands of the Communists. Unfortunately Tibet's destruction seemed not to have been disaster enough to reign in the long-standing and unjustified aggression of the Gelugpa School towards the Karmapa and his Karma Kagyu order. In 1961 the Tibetan government in exile proposed to merge the four Tibetan schools into one religious body headed by Your Holiness. This policy inflicted serious spiritual suffering on much of the Tibetan exile community. Rallying behind Karmapa's authority, thirteen Tibetan settlements challenged the Exile Government's plan and as a consequence the whole scheme was abandoned. Later in the seventies Karmapa came under blame because he had chosen to defend the autonomy of the three other lineages. The aggressive atmosphere which had been fomented during that period triggered joyful celebrations at the Tibetan camps in Ladakh when H.H. the 16th Karmapa died in 1981. This painful incident further inflamed the mistrust between the two schools.

Even before the 16th Karmapa's death, members of Your Holiness' circle had already approached certain high Kagyu lamas with an offer of collaboration in the search and recognition of the 17th Karmapa. In close cooperation with this traitorous Kagyu group, Your Holiness succeeded in dividing our school for the first time in its history. This scheme brought about the subsequent enthronement of a false Karmapa in China. In 1992 and 1993 Your Holiness deliberately endorsed the wrongful claims and actions of this group of corrupt Kagyu lamas. This interference is absolutely unacceptable to the Karma Kagyu School. In July 2000, Your Holiness' involvement in the matter went even further. Your Holiness informed H.H. Shamar Rinpoche in writing that even if an authentic prediction from the 16th Karmapa was found and presented, it would not sway your insistence that Urgyen Trinley is the Throneholder-Karmapa. By doing so Your Holiness would retrospectively deprive the undisputed 16th Karmapa of his right to determine his own reincarnation.

Such a preposterous claim goes against the Karma Kagyu tradition and sets the stage for a take-over of the Karma Kagyu School by Your Holiness' School and Government. Up until Your Holiness' interference in 1992, no other Dalai Lama has ever played a role in the recognition of a genuine Karmapa. As Your Holiness well knows, the Karmapa incarnations precede the Dalai Lama line by over three hundred years. There is no historical precedent for Your Holiness' current involvement. We highly respect and support Your Holiness' struggle for the welfare and freedom of the Tibetan people. We therefore request you to apply the same goodwill in the case of the Karmapa controversy. For the sake of the integrity of our lineage, we urge Your Holiness to gracefully bow out of this internal conflict of the Karma Kagyu School. We also ask for Your Holiness' support regarding our view that the whole world will benefit by preserving the rich diversity of all four schools, including the Karma Kagyu. We sincerely make wishes for Your Holiness' long life and continued health.

Most respectfully, for and on behalf of all delegates to the International Karma Kagyu Conference

H.H. Luehrs (Chairman)