Author Topic: Proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha  (Read 26038 times)

hope rainbow

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Proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha
« on: December 01, 2011, 08:16:33 PM »
I have seen the oracle taking trance of Nechung.
I have also seen the oracle taking trance of Dorje Shugden.

One important difference to highlight:

When Nechung takes trance, he goes and make offerings to the Dalai Lama.

When Dorje Shugden takes trance, it is ALL the highest lamas that go and make offerings to him, ALL THE HIGH LAMAS.

This proves that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha.

This proves that Nechung is a lay spirit.           


jagger

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Re: Proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2011, 04:28:55 AM »
Hi Hope Rainbow,

I'm new here in the forum and your post is really interesting to note.

I've always heard of the oracles of Tibet and certainly never heard of this before! I've seen videos of Nechung and other oracular deities making offerings to His Holiness but I've never heard of high Lamas making offerings to an ORACLE!

Aren't the Lamas placed highest in the Buddhist hierarchy?

Please help explain
Jaggerboy

hope rainbow

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Re: Proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2011, 04:54:14 AM »
Dear Jagger,

The high lamas make offerings to Buddhas, the offer mind-body-speech, they offer khatas.
They offer to Buddhas, not to the oracle person per say.

When the oracle takes trance and Dorje Shugden manifests, they offer to Dorje Shugden directly, they only do that because Dorje Shugden is a Buddha.

When the oracle takes trance as Nechung, or as other worldly Dharma protectors, it is those protectors themselves who make offerings of boby-speech-mind to the High Lamas, like the Dalai Lama for instance.

I'd also like to add this:
When Nechung, a worldly Dharma protector takes trance and communicate with the Dalai Lama, at one point the Dalai Lama would put on a red hat with tiny yellow stripes to signify that he is talking on representation for Guru Rinpoche and as such he is reminding him of the promise he made to Guru Rinpoche not to create havock and to protect the Buddha's teachings, and the Dalai Lama makes him renew his promise to Guru Rinpoche.

No such thing is done with Dorje Shugden, for he is a Buddha already and does not need to be subdued or be reminded of a promise... That'd be non-sense.

I hope this helps...

It is nice to have communication between all on this forum, I really appreciate that we are having that right now. Thank you and Cheers!

HR


PS: two bonus interesting observations:

1.
the costume of Nechung oracle has the shoe imprint of Guru Rinpoche on its hat piece to symbolize that he is under oath to Guru Rinpoche.
Dorje Shugden has an enlightened sword of wisdom instead.

2.
the costume of Nechung also has jewellery (ear pieces), such ornaments do not show on the oracle costume of Dorje Shugden because as a Buddha he does not wear jewelry as a sign or renunciation. These jewelry denote of the worldly nature of Nechung.

jagger

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Re: Proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2011, 07:40:21 AM »
Hey HR

thank you for the wonderful insight which you've given.

From you post, I understand the nature of Dorje Shugden which my kind teacher has been always telling me about. My teacher told me from the beginning that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha. I didn't think much about it back then as I felt very comfortable in accepting Dorje Shugden as my protector deity.

Where I am living here there are many mediums who take trances of other ethereal beings which I've witnessed many times and they give me a very eerie feeling. But when I watch Dorje Shugden taking trance during the inauguration of Shar Gaden, I had a deep sense of peace and also awe because the first thought that arose in my mind was that this Being, this holy being people revere is so so kind because he takes so much effort to come in a trance to give us advise and Dharma.

This is never heard of before, a protector deity giving Dharma teachings. That is what I understand and in my daily prayer, there's a line whereby we enthrone Dorje Shugden as the Guru, Yidam and Protector.

I'm beginning to understand the nature of Dorje Shugden more and more with the existence of this website and forum.

Thank you to those who made it possible.

Jaggerboy

DharmaSpace

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Re: Proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2011, 04:42:21 PM »
HR, though Dorje Shugden does wear worldly boots, but dorje shugden manifest as a worldly protector but the mind is enlightened something similar to protector Setrab that has been propitiated by gaden monks for  the past 600 years. Setrab also wears Guru Rinpoches sole on his head as a sign of allegiance to Guru Rinpoche but Setrab is an enlightened protector also.

My lama told me that if the being is positive it brings benefit to the oracle, if negative the reverse happens. Would be good if the oracles can share their experiences!

Big Uncle

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Re: Proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2011, 06:10:07 AM »
I think the biggest proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha comes from the proclamation by great High Lamas like Kyabje Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and many other great and high Lamas. Even the current Dalai Lama himself proclaim Dorje Shugden as a Buddha in his praise before the ban.

If these great Lamas were truly wrong, then all their lineages and teachings on the Lamrim, Tantric teachings, lojong and so forth must be flawed as well. If they were flawed, then there can be no results and attainments arising from practice. Then there is no reason to practice the Dharma. It is dramatic but the logic is clear and simple. So many obviously awakened masters have said Dorje Shugden is a Buddha. It must be true.

hope rainbow

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Re: Proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2011, 01:22:39 PM »
HR, though Dorje Shugden does wear worldly boots, but dorje shugden manifest as a worldly protector but the mind is enlightened something similar to protector Setrab that has been propitiated by gaden monks for  the past 600 years.
Setrab also wears Guru Rinpoches sole on his head as a sign of allegiance to Guru Rinpoche but Setrab is an enlightened protector also.

Thank you DS, you are right, my observation about the shoe sole was mis-leading.
The shoe sole represents guru devotion, and does not signify that the protector is not enlightened.
In fact, Dorje Shugden's oracle costume also has a shoe sole with an enlightened sword in it.

Positive Change

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Re: Proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2011, 12:34:58 PM »
It is interesting to notice these differences and nuances when an oracle takes trance of a deity/being (enlightened or unenlightened)... And for me personally, to have witnessed an oracle taking trance of Dorje Shugden was such a privilege and most awe inspiring.

All the slander of Dorje Shugden being a demon just does not wash because during the most incredible "audience" with Dorje Shugden (through oracle taking trance), everything that was advised or spoken by The King was completely that of a Buddha! It was all about compassion, about harmony, about working together, about the Three Jewels, etc. Would a so called demon propitiate such teachings??? If one were to need any convincing at all, being fortunate enough to be in the presence of this Buddha and hearing his blissful words is enough "proof"... :)

DharmaSpace

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Re: Proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2011, 01:16:48 PM »
Quote
The shoe sole represents guru devotion, and does not signify that the protector is not enlightened.

Hope, Thanks for your observation it made me think more. Your statement above is a deeper understanding of what I wrote earlier.

Quote
In fact, Dorje Shugden's oracle costume also has a shoe sole with an enlightened sword in it.
So in the same breath, Dorje Shugden is loyal to Lama Tsongkhapa.

Most things there is no clear black and white just like the 'Great Exception'  ;)



ilikeshugden

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Re: Proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2011, 05:18:02 AM »
Dorje Shugden is a Buddha. There is no denying that fact. I think that there is more proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha other than the fact that high lamas make offerings to them.

1. Dorje Shugden is a Buddha because he benefits people through his practice.

2. If he was not a Buddha, why the Dalai Lama can't exorcise him when the Dalai Lama is so powerful?

3. If he was not a Buddha, why did the 5th Dalai Lama and the 14th Dalai Lama write praises to Dorje Shugden?

4. Dorje Shugden is a Buddha because he does not ask for anything in return for what he has done for you.

5. If he was not a Buddha, why are there so many high lamas that support him?

Above are five points of proof that Dorje Shugden is ENLIGHTENED!

Ensapa

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Re: Proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2012, 01:36:21 PM »
to me, the simplest way of checking whether or not Dorje Shugden is a Buddha or not is very simple: Look at all the lamas who practiced him. Did they return or did they not return? When they return, do they resume their Dharma career as fast as possible, or are they beset with obstacles? If it was really easy for them to do Dharma in this life after an entire lifetime of practicing Dorje Shugden, then logically, Dorje Shugden is a Buddha and not a spirit as claimed. Besides, what does Dorje Shugden want from us when he grants our prayers?

beggar

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Re: Proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2012, 08:41:03 PM »
Another point to add:

When Dorje Shugden takes trance, it is sometimes his  peaceful emanation, as Duldzin (Drakpa Gyeltsen) that takes trance. In this way, he emanates as a Lama (which is also what he was in one of his previous incarnations)  and therefore gives teachings while in trance. This is very unique. While most protectors in trance only give advice and divinations, Dorje Shugden is also able to give teachings, practices and initiations. This is proof also that he is not just a spirit, for spirits or any beings lower than a Buddha would not be able to teach in this way, as a Lama, or grant initiations.

There are some videos on the YouTube account of an oracle taking trance of the peaceful Dorje Shugden, as Duldzin, which can be viewed here:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrcnQfL6ZUg Small | Large
(part 1)

Ensapa

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Re: Proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2012, 03:51:47 AM »
Another point to add:

When Dorje Shugden takes trance, it is sometimes his  peaceful emanation, as Duldzin (Drakpa Gyeltsen) that takes trance. In this way, he emanates as a Lama (which is also what he was in one of his previous incarnations)  and therefore gives teachings while in trance. This is very unique. While most protectors in trance only give advice and divinations, Dorje Shugden is also able to give teachings, practices and initiations. This is proof also that he is not just a spirit, for spirits or any beings lower than a Buddha would not be able to teach in this way, as a Lama, or grant initiations.

There are some videos on the YouTube account of an oracle taking trance of the peaceful Dorje Shugden, as Duldzin, which can be viewed here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrcnQfL6ZUg (part 1)


That is amazing. This is the first time that I have heard that Dorje Shugden can give a Dharma talk via a trance! How many Dharma protectors can do this? Most deities or entities that take trance in ordinary mediums can only grant temporal wishes or remove temporary problems, and then perhaps they would drink some alcohol or smoke a cigarette before they go off. If Dorje Shugden as Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen can give Dharma talks when in trance and the high lamas that witness this do not say that what he said is wrong but instead listen attentively, if we doubt that the Dharma that is being spoken while in trance, we would be doubting all the high lamas that are present as well. So for sure Dorje Shugden is enlightened.

jagger

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Re: Proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2013, 03:51:50 AM »
I just read online on this website that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha and there are 10 reasons (of course in reality there's more) on why Dorje Shugden is a Buddha.

Gonna put them in point forms here for the benefit of those who are reading here.

The link: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/spread-the-word/write-a-letter/10-reasons-why-dorje-shugden-is-a-buddha/

1. Dorje Shugden is the last incarnation in a lineage of enlightened Masters
Dorje Shugden arose from an incarnation lineage of enlightened Teachers. As the highly realized Master, Tagphu Kelsang Khedrub Rinpoche, said:

“You have manifested in different aspects
As Indian and Tibetan Masters,
Such as Manjushri, Mahasiddha Biwawa, Sakya Pandita, Buton Rinchen Drub, Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, Panchen Sonam Dragpa, and many others.”

Their life stories are explained on the websites, dorjeshugden.com and dorjeshugden.net; and the book Heart Jewel by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. Since his lineage is enlightened, Dorje Shugden is also fully enlightened – i.e. a Buddha.

2. Dorje Shugden could not be subdued by the Fifth Dalai Lama or other Lamas
When Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, the last human incarnation of this lineage, manifested as the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden (as he had predicted he would do), the Fifth Dalai Lama initially developed the mistaken idea that he was a spirit and tried to subdue him through performing wrathful fire pujas. Although he and many high Lamas tried to destroy Dorje Shugden, they were not able to because he is a Buddha – only Buddhas, fully enlightened beings, are indestructible. This is explained by Tagphu Kelsang Khedrub Rinpoche in his praise of Dorje Shugden, Infinite Aeons:

“Then, although four undisputed powerful Tantrikas,
With concentration, began wrathful rituals to strike you down,
Through the power of having completed Guhyasamaja’s two stages,
You would not be silenced, and showed signs of heroism; praise to you!”

3. Dorje Shugden’s form teaches the paths of Sutra and Tantra
Dorje Shugden’s form teaches the complete stages of the path of Sutra and Tantra, and such qualities are not possessed by the forms of worldly beings. He appears as a fully ordained monk to show that the practice of pure moral discipline is essential for those who wish to attain Enlightenment. In his left hand he holds a heart, which symbolizes great compassion and spontaneous great bliss – the essence of all the stages of the vast path of Sutra and Tantra. His round yellow hat represents the view of Nagarjuna, and the wisdom sword in his right hand (like the one held by Manjushri and Je Tsongkhapa) teaches us to sever ignorance, the root of samsara, with the sharp blade of Nagarjuna’s view. This is the essence of all the stages of the profound path of Sutra and Tantra. He rides a snow lion, symbolizing the four fearlessnesses of a Buddha.

Explanation of his other features can be found on the websites dorjeshugden.com and dorjeshugden.net, as well as the specific enlightened function of each of the 32 Deities of his entourage and mandala, which are explained in a prayer written by Sachen Kunlo, one of the great Sakya Lamas.

Only enlightened beings display a meaningful aspect that teaches the entire path to Enlightenment. Therefore, Dorje Shugden is a Buddha.

4. Dorje Shugden is the incarnation of the five Buddha families

Dorje Shugden
Dorje Shugden is the incarnation of the five Buddha families and appears in five forms that symbolize the five families. These forms are explained in dorjeshugden.com and dorjeshugden.net and are called ‘the five lineages of Dorje Shugden’.

The principal Deity, Duldzin Dorje Shugden rides a snow lion. Vairochana Shugden (peaceful emanation) is white and rides an elephant. Ratna Shugden (increase/wealth emanation) is yellow and rides a palomino horse. Pema Shugden (control emanation) is red and rides a turquoise dragon. Karma Shugden (wrathful emanation) is dark red and rides a wrathful Garuda bird. These forms also symbolize Dorje Shugden’s attainment of pacifying, increasing, controlling and wrathful actions and his main form as Duldzin symbolizes the supreme attainment – Enlightenment itself.

Since Dorje Shugden is the manifestation of the five Buddha families, there is no doubt that he is the same enlightened nature as Buddha Vajradhara.

5. Dorje Shugden is the same nature as Manjushri, Je Tsongkhapa, Mahakala and Kalarupa

Lama Tsongkhapa
Dorje Shugden is the same nature as Je Tsongkhapa – they are the same person performing different functions. Many Dorje Shugden sadhanas state that Dorje Shugden is the embodiment of the “Guru, Yidam and Protector”, where “Guru” refers specifically to Lama Tsongkhapa. When we practice the sadhana of Dorje Shugden, we are indirectly practicing the Guru Yoga of Je Tsongkhapa. Gelugpa practitioners who have a sincere trust in Dorje Shugden will have no difficulty in generating unshakeable faith in Je Tsongkhapa and his teachings.

Both Je Tsongkhapa (‘peaceful Manjushri’) and Dorje Shugden (‘wrathful Manjushri’) are manifestations of the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri, as are the Dharma Protectors four-faced Mahakala and Kalarupa. Therefore, they are all the same enlightened nature.

6. Dorje Shugden’s mandala deities are the same nature as the body mandala deities of Lama Losang Tubwang Dorjechang
The Deities of Dorje Shugden’s mandala are the same nature as the Deities of the body mandala of Lama Losang Tubwang Dorjechang, who is in essence Je Tsongkhapa. Lama Losang Tubwang Dorjechang is the principal object of refuge in the blessed Gelug practice of Offering to the Spiritual Guide (Tibetan: Lama Chopa), which comes from Manjushri’s Emanation Scripture. In this practice, we visualize within his body the 32 Deities of Guhyasamaja. These 32 Deities manifest as the 32 Deities of Dorje Shugden’s mandala, indicating that Dorje Shugden is the same nature as Je Tsongkhapa and Guhyasamaja, and thus a fully enlightened being.

Of the Deities of the five lineages of Dorje Shugden explained above, the principal Deity is Duldzin Dorje Shugden, who is the manifestation of the aggregate of consciousness of Lama Losang Tubwang Dorjechang. The remaining four lineages are manifestations of Lama Losang Tubwang Dorjechang’s remaining four aggregates. Je Tsongkhapa himself therefore manifests as an enlightened Protector and retinue to protect his Ganden tradition.

7. The practice of Dorje Shugden was taught by Je Tsongkhapa in Tushita Pure Land
Dorje Shugden arose as the principal Protector of Je Tsongkhapa’s doctrine over 300 years ago, at the time of the Fifth Dalai Lama, who composed the first verse of praise to him. However, the current system of empowerment and worship is more recent and comes from a great Lama called Tagphu Kelsang Khedrub Rinpoche. Lama Tagphu went to Tushita Pure Land where he met Je Tsongkhapa and requested a teaching. In response, Je Tsongkhapa lifted up the cloth covering the front of the golden throne on which he was sitting, and the five lineages of Dorje Shugden emerged. Dorje Shugden then transmitted the practice to Lama Tagphu, just as Maitreya had transmitted five major philosophical treatises to Asanga in Tushita Pure Land in earlier times.

Lama Tagphu later transmitted these instructions to Pabongkapa Dechen Nyingpo, who passed them on to Trijang Dorjechang Losang Yeshe – spiritual father and son. From Trijang Rinpoche, these teachings were passed to our present day Gelugpa Teachers, many of whom now have large, thriving Dharma centers throughout the world and, collectively among them, tens of thousands of Dharma students.

8. Dorje Shugden has been relied upon by the highest Lamas, who themselves have been recognized as enlightened

H.H. Trijang Rinpoche
Well-regarded Gelugpa practitioners of Dorje Shugden include:

• the Fifth Dalai Lama
• Kelsang Thubten Jigme Gyatso 1743-1811 (a tutor to the 9th Dalai Lama)
• Losang Thubten Wangchuk Jigme Gyatso 1775 – 1813 (head of the Gelugpa in Mongolia)
• Ngulchu Dharmabadra
• the Indian master Shakya Shri Bhadra
• the 11th Dalai Lama 1838 – 1856 (who installed Dorje Shugden as
the Protector of the Gelugpa tradition)
• Gyara Tulku Rinpoche, Tomo Geshe Rinpoche (regarded by the 13th Dalai Lama as an emanation of Je Tsongkhapa)
• Serkong Rinpoche (regarded by the 13th Dalai Lama as Vajradhara)
• Tagphu Kelsang Khedrub Rinpoche
• Pabongkha Rinpoche
• Trijang Rinpoche
• Ling Rinpoche
• Khangsar Rinpoche
• Tathag Rinpoche (in charge of the Tibetan Government after the death of the 13th Dalai Lama)
• Zong Rinpoche
• Lobsang Tamdin
• Ribur Rinpoche
• Khen Rinpoche Losang Tharchin
• Lati Rinpoche
• Geshe Rabten
• Geshe Ngawang Dhargyey
• Khensur Rinpoche
• Khechog Rinpoche
• Dagyab Rinpoche
• Gelek Rinpoche
• Lama Yeshe
• Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
• Yongyal Rinpoche
• the 14th Dalai Lama (until he was in his forties)
• Dagom Rinpoche
• Gonsar Rinpoche
• Gangchen Rinpoche and many others

(more extensive information about these and other Dorje Shugden Lamas are available on dorjeshugden.com and dorjeshugden.net)

These great Masters themselves have all been recognized as realized, holy beings, with many thousands of Tantric disciples who revere them as living Buddhas.

The later Lamas were all direct or indirect disciples of the great Pabongka Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche. The 14th Dalai Lama says that Pabongka Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche were “wrong” to worship Dorje Shugden. But they have been recognized as emanations of the Buddhas Heruka and Amitabha respectively, and were the principal upholders of Je Tsongkhapa’s Gelug doctrine in their time; so how can they be wrong?

9. Dorje Shugden performs the twenty-seven deeds of a Buddha
The highly realized Master, Tagphu Kelsang Khedrub Rinpoche, composed a verse of praise:

“With deep faith I prostrate to you, Vajradhara Dorje Shugden. Although you have already attained the Buddha ground and engage in the 27 deeds of a Buddha, You appear in various forms to help the Buddhadharma and sentient beings.”


Dorje Shugden
These 27 deeds, explained in the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras, range from showing living beings the way to enter the spiritual path to liberation up to guiding them to the final attainment of Buddhahood. Since Dorje Shugden performs all these 27 deeds, it is clear that he is a Buddha.

Some people say that Dorje Shugden has harmed practitioners who have strayed from the Ganden tradition, but there are no examples of this forthcoming, whereas there are many examples of how Dorje Shugden has protected living beings. For example, Dorje Shugden was responsible for the Dalai Lama being able to safely travel from Tibet to India in 1959.

Even today, there are many Buddhist practitioners with their own stories to tell of how they have been protected by this Dharma Protector. Dorje Shugden’s name means ‘Vajra Possessing Strength’, indicating that he has great power and strength to spread Buddhadharma and to help people in these degenerate times.

10. Relying upon Dorje Shugden leads to supramundane results
The difference between a Dharma Protector and a worldly protector is that the former is an enlightened being whereas the latter is not. Worldly protectors have no ability to flourish the Buddhadharma nor to protect Dharma realizations in a practitioner’s mind. As a Dharma Protector, Dorje Shugden’s principal function is to protect our Dharma practice, not just to help our mundane affairs.

Dorje Shugden always helps, guides, and protects faithful practitioners by granting blessings, increasing their wisdom, fulfilling their virtuous wishes, and bestowing success on all their virtuous activities. Dorje Shugden does not help only Gelugpas; because he is a Buddha, he helps all living beings.

Dorje Shugden has removed obstacles and created the conditions for the extraordinary growth of Je Tsongkhapa’s teachings, and most importantly realizations of those teachings, in this current age. Je Tsongkhapa’s doctrine is now spreading to countries throughout the world via some of the largest Buddhist organisations such as the New Kadampa Tradition and FPMT centers.

Those who rely upon Dorje Shugden know that their spiritual realizations come from his blessings. However, as in a relationship with any holy being, this is something that can only be experienced by someone who relies on him with strong faith over a long period of time, steadily building their connection with him.

Gyara Tulku Rinpoche from Drepung Loseling Monastery wrote a prayer of gratitude, whose sentiments are shared by Dorje Shugden practitioners worldwide:

“First you gave me a highly qualified Spiritual Guide
Under whom I studied and practised Dharma.
When through following misleading advice I came close to entering wrong paths,
You immediately hooked me back into the correct path.

O Duldzin, King of the Dharma, I thank you for your kindness.
Your body is the synthesis of all Sangha Jewels,
Your speech is the synthesis of all Dharma Jewels,
And your mind is the synthesis of all Buddha Jewels.”
Jaggerboy

Tenzin Malgyur

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Re: Proof that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2013, 04:41:32 AM »
There are so many strong evidence pointing to the fact that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha. From all the recollections of people who were personally in attendance during a trance where Dorje Shugden manifested through the oracles and the countless articles that  I have come across in the medias, there were not a mentioned of any hatred or spiteful feelings towards anyone at all. There were also times when the protector deity would give Dharma teachings through the oracle in trance. All these facts do really reinforced my belief that Dorje Shugden is really a Buddha.