Why did the Dalai Lama not "kill" the "Demon" Dorje Shugden once and for all?

[WoselTenzin]

The controversy of Dorje Shugden started when Dalai Lama accused Dorje Shugden of being a demon that is harmful to Dalai Lama's life and an obstacle to Tibet's independence and finally culminating into the ban of Dorje Shugden practice completely.   

I read one of the earlier posts by Mountains giving a logical debate on if Dorje Shugden in fact is a demon, why not kill the "demon" Dorje Shugden with a fire puja and it's many benefits should this be done.  I am re-posting it here again as I think many new people in the forum will be interested to know....   

IF DORJE SHUGDEN IS SUCH A DEMON THAT IS DESTROYING HH THE DALAI LAMA'S LIFE, THE OBSTACLE TO GETTING TIBETAN FREEDOM,AND GENERALLY HARMFUL, WHY DOES THE DALAI LAMA NEED TO TAKE A REFERENDUM ON HIM WITHIN THE GELUG SEATS?

THAT IS WHAT HE IS DOING NOW AS I TYPE THIS, AS HE SAID HE WOULD DURING THE LAST FEW DAYS WHILE TEACHING PANCHEN SONAM DRAKPA'S PHILOSOPHICAL TEXTS IN DREPUNG. HE MENTIONS HE IS ACCUSED OF BEING A DICTATOR, SO HE WILL TAKE A REFERENDUM AMONG THE MONKS OF SERA, DREPUNG AND GADEN TO BE FAIR.

THE REFERENDUM WILL DECIDE WHETHER DALAI LAMA IS TO KEEP SPEAKING ABOUT THE ISSUE OR NOT.
 
IF THE REFERENDUM COMES OUT 60% DONT SPEAK, THEN HE PROMISES TO NEVER SPEAK ABOUT THE ISSUE AGAIN. SHOULDNT A REFERENDUM BEEN TAKEN PERHAPS 300 YEARS AGO WHEN THIS ALL STARTED? DOUBTFULLY THE REFERENDUM WILL COME OUT IN DORJE SHUGDEN'S FAVOUR AS ALL THE SMEAR CAMPAIGNS, SUBTLE PSYCHOLOGICAL THREATS, OSTRACIZATIONS THAT HAS BEEN HEAPED UPON THIS PROTECTOR FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS AND INTENSIFIED IN THE LAST DECADE.

IF YOU PRACTICE DORJE SHUGDEN, IT HAS BEEN TWISTED THAT IT IS TANTAMOUNT TO BEING AGAINST TIBETAN FREEDOM AND THE LONG LIFE OF THE DALAI LAMA. OF COURSE THE EXILE TIBETAN GOVERNMENT HAS TO FOCUS ON DORJE SHUGDEN AS THEIR FAILURE TO SECURE TIBETAN INDEPENDENCE AND AUTONOMY HAS DISMALLY FAILED. THERE NEEDS TO BE A SCAPEGOAT IT SEEMS ALTHOUGH I CAN'T CONFIRM.

IN 1985 KALACAKRA, BODHGAYA, 40,000 TIBETANS FROM TIBET WERE GRANTED SPECIAL PASSES BY THE CHINESE GOVT TO ENTER INDIA. SO THEY ATTENDED THE KALACAKRA IN BODHGAYA. THEY WERE GRANTED A SPECIAL AUDIENCE BY HH AND IN THAT AUDIENCE HE TOLD THEM CLEARLY, DONT BE SAD, IN FIVE YEARS TIME WE WILL SEE EACHOTHER IN LHASA!!! EVERYONE THERE TIBETANS AND NON-TIBETANS BURSTED INTO TEARS. TEARS OF JOY. TEARS OF GREAT HAPPINESS. WELL IT IS 2008 NOW ALREADY AND WE ARE STILL UNABLE TO SEE HH THE DALAI LAMA IN LHASA, HIS RIGHTFUL HOME. IT WAS RUMOURED THAT NECHUNG TOOK TRANCE OF THE STATE ORACLE AND SAID IT WOULD BE SO AND THE DALAI LAMA SHOULD ANNOUNCE THAT.

MANY MONKS OF GADEN, SERA AND DREPUNG WERE ADVISED TO NOT BUILD ANYTHING ELABORATE AS IT CANNOT BE TAKEN TO TIBET WHEN WE RETURN IN 5 YEARS TIME. SO MANY MONKS FOR YEARS DIDNT BUILD THEIR HOUSES BIGGER, DIDNT ENLARGE THE PRAYER HALL OR DEBATE COURTYARDS. THEY HAD KEPT THE PHYSICAL PROPERTIES OF THE MONASTERIES TO A BARE MINIMUM. IT IS IN THE LAST 10 YEARS THAT SERA JE REBUILT THEIR PRAYERS HALL TO IT'S MASSIVE ONE NOW. GADEN JANGTSE ALSO. GADEN SHARTSE DID THE SAME. SHARTSE IN FACT ALSO BUILT A MASSIVE SEMI-OUTDOOR DEBATE COURTYARD. AND NOW CURRENTLY HH DALAI LAMA IS CONSECRATING THE MASSIVE PRAYER HALL JUST BUILT BY DREPUNG LOSELING MONASTERY. I GUESS THEY ARE NOT GOING BACK TO TIBET???


SIMPLE QUESTIONS:

Why doesnt the Dalai Lama combined with other high lamas do a massive fire puja and 'kill' the demon dorje shugden ONCE AND FOR ALL???

SOME BENEFITS AFTER THE FIRE PUJA

1. Fire puja kills the harmful being but is said to send that being compassionately to a Buddha pureland where it can stop doing harm and also collecting further negative karma.

2. If not a fire puja, why not do a binding ritual and swear dorje shugden to the oath of dharma as Guru Rinpoche did to the previous demon spirit we now know as Nechung.

3. If Dorje Shugden is bound or 'killed' then all of our troubles are finished. Once done, if people wish to pray to a dead god, then let them. After all, he is dead and harmless.

4. Then the Dalai Lama need not worry re the status of Tibet anymore. Once Dorje Shugden is killed or bound, Tibet SHOULD GET IT'S INDEPENDENCE OR SOMETHING CLOSE TO IT IMMEDIATELY.

5. Much energy, by word, writing and publications can be saved. The Tibetan Govt in exile exists on donations from around the world, they can save alot of money to be used for something more useful rather
    than slander, propaganda, books, publications, and paid human resources toward this.

6. All the disruptions in Gaden, Sera and Drepung would settle down immediately.

7. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Ven. Gonsar Rinpoche, Ven. Gangchen Rinpoche, HH Trijang Rinpoche, HH Pabongka Rinpoche, Serkong Tritul Rinpoche, Zasep Rinpoche, etc etc etc etc can be in 'good relations' with HH
    the Dalai Lama again!! They can meet and  some may even attend the teachings of HH the Dalai Lama!!!! Imagine all these powerful lamas are taken in by the Tibetan Govt in exile. They would be a
    powerful force for the Tibetan Government in exile to have as friends. Whether to spread Buddhadharma, support HH long term, to finance, raise funds, etc.  For the general Unity among Tibetans to preserve
    their culture and Tibetan Lamas to bring the Buddhadharma with much less obstacles (united) to the general world at large! Why does it have to be the Dalai Lama camp and the 'other' camp. After all the
    Dalai Lama is holding Bodhisattva vows as well as the Lamas of the 'other' camp. Shouldnt they all 'forgive' and forget?? Maybe the Dalai Lama can have a meeting with them and talk things out and convince
    the 'other' side of the harm? Or benefit.  Better yet, why not invite one of the Dorje Shugden oracles to the presence of HH the Dalai Lama. Then Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama
    have direct dialogue??  Iron things out after 300 years. Outcome: the demon Dorje Shugden submits to the Dalai Lama or the Dalai Lama 'realizes' Dorje Shugden isnt a demon as he has already written a
    praise to him in Dromo Geshe Rinpoche's Dungkar Monastery in Tibet in the 50's (THIS PRAYER WRITTEN TO DORJE SHUGDEN BY HH 14the DALAI LAMA IS CALLED 'MELODY OF THE UNCEASING VAJRA).

8. Since China is allegedly funding Dorje Shugden practitoners to disrupt Tibetans in exile, then China wouldnt have anyone to fund anymore that is harmful to the Tibetan cause as proclaimed by Kalon Tripa
    Samdhong Rinpoche. Who he himself is a disciple of HH Trijang Rinpoche and HH Zong Rinpoche.

9. After all, if dorje shugden is killed by a fire puja, then this one being is dead or bound and TIBET IS SAVED. GELUGPA IS SAVED. HH THE DALAI LAMA IS SAVED. So many are saved and so much energy
    resources saved if one being is bound or killed by ritual. Remember, HH mentions he is a distorted being arising from negative prayers. So it would put dorje shugden out of misery also and he would
    stop collecting so much negative karma harming others and faking himself as a protector.

10. Some kagyus, Nyingmapas, Sakyas do not need to be frightened of Gelug monks and centres that practice dorje shugden. Although if they have refuge and hold the vows, why would they be frightened at all
      is a question.

11. In short so many 'benefits' would arise, so much confusion avoided, broken samayas mended, resources saved if only a FIRE PUJA OR BINDING RITUAL WAS DONE BY THE HIGHEST AND MOST REKNOWNED OF
     TIBETAN LAMAS, HH the Dalai Lama.

[WisdomBeing]

The questions raised in Mountains' post are very valid. I keep asking these very questions to all those who accuse Dorje Shugden of being a demon, yet no one can answer them. If there are any logical responses to the questions raised - first, if DS is evil, why take a referendum? Definitely DS should just be oath bound or destroyed, which leads to the second question, why doesn't the Dalai Lama just destroy the evil spirit?

I particularly like what Mountains suggested - why not get HH Dalai Lama to have a dialogue with Dorje Shugden via oracle. After all, the Dalai Lama did consult with Dorje Shugden before so it would be interesting to see what happens if they meet.

[DharmaSpace]

Dorje Shugden' s iconography where is he holding his heart shows how much compassion he has for sentient beings, I doubt any worldly deities will give anything without any return.

Dorje Shugden is not the same nature as Nechung that was bound by Guru Rinpoche, Dorje Shugden arose from enlightened beings so there is really no comparison. Besides the there are still people alive who can testify it was Dorje Shugden's advice that assisted the Dalai Lama to leave Tibet safely. If the Dalai Lama followed Nechung's advise we wouldn't have the Dalai Lama at all making spiritual waves across the world.

[Zach]

The questions raised in Mountains' post are very valid. I keep asking these very questions to all those who accuse Dorje Shugden of being a demon, yet no one can answer them. If there are any logical responses to the questions raised - first, if DS is evil, why take a referendum? Definitely DS should just be oath bound or destroyed, which leads to the second question, why doesn't the Dalai Lama just destroy the evil spirit?

I particularly like what Mountains suggested - why not get HH Dalai Lama to have a dialogue with Dorje Shugden via oracle. After all, the Dalai Lama did consult with Dorje Shugden before so it would be interesting to see what happens if they meet.

It makes you question how can a spirit be more powerful then a Buddha ? That this so called spirit cannot be subdued by any of the accomplished masters set to task on it ( says alot about these masters if it is true ) logical tibetans will not follow the Dalai lama especially Gelug practitoners keeping their practise in their minds and concealed from others to avoid difficulty or flying in the face of established dictate by His Holiness and choosing to set a good example of Guru devotion and devotion to the lineage by becoming self-reliant so to speak. With the latest from Kensur Sonam Gyaltsen it will only be a matter of time before more and more speak out and HHDL's effects will have little effect on what practitoners choose to do anymore.

This is more of a waiting game then anything else. 

[Mana]

It makes you question how can a spirit be more powerful then a Buddha ? That this so called spirit cannot be subdued by any of the accomplished masters set to task on it ( says alot about these masters if it is true ) logical tibetans will not follow the Dalai lama especially Gelug practitoners keeping their practise in their minds and concealed from others to avoid difficulty or flying in the face of established dictate by His Holiness and choosing to set a good example of Guru devotion and devotion to the lineage by becoming self-reliant so to speak. With the latest from Kensur Sonam Gyaltsen it will only be a matter of time before more and more speak out and HHDL's effects will have little effect on what practitoners choose to do anymore.

This is more of a waiting game then anything else. 

Zach, very well said. I couldn't have said it better myself. Many will not follow the Dalai Lama nor openly go against him as there are too many risks living as a refugee under the control of CTA (former Tibetan Govt).

Secondly it is a waiting game. And Dorje Shugden will outlive everyone.

Mana

[Ensapa]

I find this point especially powerful:

7. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Ven. Gonsar Rinpoche, Ven. Gangchen Rinpoche, HH Trijang Rinpoche, HH Pabongka Rinpoche, Serkong Tritul Rinpoche, Zasep Rinpoche, etc etc etc etc can be in 'good relations' with HH
    the Dalai Lama again!! They can meet and  some may even attend the teachings of HH the Dalai Lama!!!! Imagine all these powerful lamas are taken in by the Tibetan Govt in exile. They would be a
    powerful force for the Tibetan Government in exile to have as friends. Whether to spread Buddhadharma, support HH long term, to finance, raise funds, etc.  For the general Unity among Tibetans to preserve
    their culture and Tibetan Lamas to bring the Buddhadharma with much less obstacles (united) to the general world at large! Why does it have to be the Dalai Lama camp and the 'other' camp. After all the
    Dalai Lama is holding Bodhisattva vows as well as the Lamas of the 'other' camp. Shouldnt they all 'forgive' and forget?? Maybe the Dalai Lama can have a meeting with them and talk things out and convince
    the 'other' side of the harm? Or benefit.  Better yet, why not invite one of the Dorje Shugden oracles to the presence of HH the Dalai Lama. Then Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama
    have direct dialogue??  Iron things out after 300 years. Outcome: the demon Dorje Shugden submits to the Dalai Lama or the Dalai Lama 'realizes' Dorje Shugden isnt a demon as he has already written a
    praise to him in Dromo Geshe Rinpoche's Dungkar Monastery in Tibet in the 50's (THIS PRAYER WRITTEN TO DORJE SHUGDEN BY HH 14the DALAI LAMA IS CALLED 'MELODY OF THE UNCEASING VAJRA).

As Dorje Shugden can take trance, why not the Dalai Lama confront Dorje Shugden directly and scold him or tell him to never manifest again? After all, Dorje Shugden does bow dow to the Dalai Lama as the Dalai Lama has to take care of many people (and this has been mentioned in an earlier post where some minister went into Dorje Shugden's mandala and read out the 5th Dalai Lama's edict and upon receiving it, Dorje Shugden put it on his head) So i find it all very strange that the Dalai Lama is attacking the practitioners but not the deity himself. The outcome was that, both the 5th and the current Dalai Lama has realized that Dorje Shugden is indeed enlightened, and wrote prayers for him, but why no prayers against him? The only puja or prayer that is 'against' Dorje Shugden (or rather, modified and distorted, as it was initially meant to keep interfering spirits at bay) is Guru Tragphur, but why is there no angry prayers from the 14th? the 5th wrote one before he found out who Dorje Shugden really is.

So is HHDL really serious about the ban or he couldnt care less, or its just words that people take too seriously and distort?

[beggar]

So i find it all very strange that the Dalai Lama is attacking the practitioners but not the deity himself. The outcome was that, both the 5th and the current Dalai Lama has realized that Dorje Shugden is indeed enlightened, and wrote prayers for him, but why no prayers against him?

What a great point. I've never looked at it that way. Indeed, why doesn't the Dalai Lama or many, many, many of the high lamas across all traditions, just do something to "attack" the deity back? Give him a taste of his own medicine? Destroy him completely?

By not being able to destroy him, is that to say that the spirit has more power and is more invincible than all the highly attained lamas put together? That all the fire pujas and binding rituals that had previously been done by high lamas had all failed? That the high lamas and all these pujas are ineffective?

The fact that nothing is even being done says plenty about how contradictory this whole ban is. There were Hayagriva Tamdin rituals done in the late 1990s to destroy him, nothing happened. And no further efforts have been made to destroy, bind or subdue the "demon". What does that say about the people who are supporting the ban on him? That all of them, including the Dalai Lama, are incapable of taming a mere little spirit? And have given up on any further efforts? That they would be so low as to then divert their attentions to attacking the practitioners instead? tsk.

Surely, if there was a type of food out that, that you were saying is poisonous, it would be wiser to remove that brand of food off the supermarket shelves, than attacking and denouncing the people who buy it and eat it? This is the same as what is happening with the Shugden practice. The Dalai Lama banned it because of its supposedly harmful affects on practitioners. Well - then destroy the deity, not the practitioners? This is very logical.

 

[DharmaDefender]

I particularly like what Mountains suggested - why not get HH Dalai Lama to have a dialogue with Dorje Shugden via oracle. After all, the Dalai Lama did consult with Dorje Shugden before so it would be interesting to see what happens if they meet.

I read that if Dorje Shugden (or any protector for that matter) is pleased with you, theyll bang their breastplate if they have one, or hug the practitioner or show them an emphatic thumbs up.

Wouldnt everyone just crap in their pants if Dorje Shugden suddenly hugged His Holiness? What do you think the world would think? That Dorje Shugden has no ego and can "forgive" someone who has spent a lifetime apparently banning him? That the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden were in cahoots the whole time, and Dorje Shugden is totally aware of His Holiness motivation?

I know this is all just speculative but Wisdom Being is right, it would be extremely interesting to witness...

[Ensapa]

So i find it all very strange that the Dalai Lama is attacking the practitioners but not the deity himself. The outcome was that, both the 5th and the current Dalai Lama has realized that Dorje Shugden is indeed enlightened, and wrote prayers for him, but why no prayers against him?

What a great point. I've never looked at it that way. Indeed, why doesn't the Dalai Lama or many, many, many of the high lamas across all traditions, just do something to "attack" the deity back? Give him a taste of his own medicine? Destroy him completely?
All these points have been the most mysterious to me as Dorje Shugden can take trance, that is for sure, and since Dorje Shugden can take trance, it gives HHDL or anyone at all an opportunity to speak to him directly about any matters that they wish to confront, so why cant the kalon tripa or HHDL ask him once and for all if he is going against Tibet, or if he wants HHDL dead? It only makes sense that this is done. But over the 30 years of the ban, nothing of this sort has been done.

By not being able to destroy him, is that to say that the spirit has more power and is more invincible than all the highly attained lamas put together? That all the fire pujas and binding rituals that had previously been done by high lamas had all failed? That the high lamas and all these pujas are ineffective?

The fact that nothing is even being done says plenty about how contradictory this whole ban is. There were Hayagriva Tamdin rituals done in the late 1990s to destroy him, nothing happened. And no further efforts have been made to destroy, bind or subdue the "demon". What does that say about the people who are supporting the ban on him? That all of them, including the Dalai Lama, are incapable of taming a mere little spirit? And have given up on any further efforts? That they would be so low as to then divert their attentions to attacking the practitioners instead? tsk.

After so many repeated failed attempts to destroy him, it is pretty obvious that Dorje Shuden is  not a ghost, nor a spirit and nor a demon. What else can he be? A Buddha, of course, and so many people still DONT TAKE THE HINT (surprisingly, because prepackaged information is always better and more convenient to digest and we dont have to research at all!) But oh well. If they can remove the deity, the the practitioners would stop but they cannot remove the deity, so they did the next best thing: to try and stop the practtioners. but even in this they fail as they underestimated the power of Guru devotion and sheer willpower.


Surely, if there was a type of food out that, that you were saying is poisonous, it would be wiser to remove that brand of food off the supermarket shelves, than attacking and denouncing the people who buy it and eat it? This is the same as what is happening with the Shugden practice. The Dalai Lama banned it because of its supposedly harmful affects on practitioners. Well - then destroy the deity, not the practitioners? This is very
logical.
When you destroy the source, everything else associated with it will be gone as well. this is very simple logic, yet nobody really gets it and they go for the practitioners instead. Why is it the practitioners are targeted but not the deity? I dont think it is logical at all either, unless of course it was  more or less a show of sorts to be shown to someone...

Nice points! Well, I really wonder who from HHDL's camp can answer this questions and this points because it is a well known fact after all that Dorje Shugden can take trance..so why has nobody confronted him while in trance yet?

[Big Uncle]

Tibetan Buddhism is famous for its powerful rituals especially those that can subdue negative forces. There's no other spiritual discipline with such power. I guess that's the power of Tantra and the rituals are extremely effective in subduing negativities and if Dorje Shugden was truly a spirit, there's no way the Dalai Lama is unable to subdue him.

If he's stronger than the Tantra deities, it goes to show his true nature, the same quality as the other Tantra deities like what the other people here say. I think that this whole process of engaging in rituals that ultimately fail is part of the Dalai Lama's plans to proof to the world how powerful Dorje Shugden is. In the future when the ban is lifted and many are spreading this practice, people will look back to anecdotes of how the Lamas try to use powerful ritual to subdue Dorje Shugden and fail.

[Galen]

It is true that how come the attacks are always on the practitioners and not the Deity himself. Why not destroy Dorje Shugden completely and we will not have this issue anymore. The Dalai Lama himself is Chenrezig, he should be able to destroy/subdue Dorje Shugden if Dorje Shugden is  a demon. However, this is not done for so many years, from the 5th Dalai Lama till now. Doesn't this tell you something? Could it be that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, and therefore cannot be destroyed, so the next thing to do is to attack the practitioners so that a confusion can be created and to stop people from practicing.

Also, Why would the 5th Dalai Lama compose praises for Dorje Shugden if he thinks that Dorje Shugden is a demon? It doesn't make sense at all. I still believe that this whole ban is solely for the purpose of Dorje Shugden spreading far and wide.

[thor]

The Dalai Lama will never be able to get rid of shugden through rituals or prayers. Buddhas don't fight against Buddhas. Look, it's not just the hayagriva puja in the 90's. Even way back when mindrolling Rinpoche tried to get rid of Dorje shugden, who came to help but Setrab?

Big Uncle is correct in saying that Tibetan Buddhism is the strongest force against all black magic and spirits. Tibetan rituals can overcome Thai, voodoo, Taiwanese mountain magic and so on. So one little spirit called Dorje Shugden should not be so difficult to overcome, if he really was an evil spirit, don't you think?

[DharmaDefender]

Is someone rehashing this old argument again? You cant kill something which does not have the karma to be killed. And whats worse is, you gain the negative karma of having the intention to draw blood from a Buddha which is one of the five heinous crimes.

Good luck to you in the lower realms mate, see you there!

[Rihanna]

It is true that how come the attacks are always on the practitioners and not the Deity himself. Why not destroy Dorje Shugden completely and we will not have this issue anymore. The Dalai Lama himself is Chenrezig, he should be able to destroy/subdue Dorje Shugden if Dorje Shugden is  a demon. However, this is not done for so many years, from the 5th Dalai Lama till now. Doesn't this tell you something? Could it be that Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, and therefore cannot be destroyed, so the next thing to do is to attack the practitioners so that a confusion can be created and to stop people from practicing.

Also, Why would the 5th Dalai Lama compose praises for Dorje Shugden if he thinks that Dorje Shugden is a demon? It doesn't make sense at all. I still believe that this whole ban is solely for the purpose of Dorje Shugden spreading far and wide.



Galen, i like what you said "Why not destroy Dorje Shugden completely and we will not have this issue anymore". You are absolutely right. Why all the big song and dance about the illegal practice? Just kill that demon then! On the same note, since Dalai Lama is apparently the biggest enemy of Dorje Shugden, and  Dorje Shugden is this evil being who is so dangerous that his practice has to be banned and that the Dalai Lama has to warn everyone against him - why doesn't he just kill the Dalai Lama or vice versa? Then this whole ban issue is over and done with! Unless this is all just a charade....

[Galen]

Galen, i like what you said "Why not destroy Dorje Shugden completely and we will not have this issue anymore". You are absolutely right. Why all the big song and dance about the illegal practice? Just kill that demon then! On the same note, since Dalai Lama is apparently the biggest enemy of Dorje Shugden, and  Dorje Shugden is this evil being who is so dangerous that his practice has to be banned and that the Dalai Lama has to warn everyone against him - why doesn't he just kill the Dalai Lama or vice versa? Then this whole ban issue is over and done with! Unless this is all just a charade....

Very true, why not both just destroy each other then the issue will be gone. But then again, both of them are Buddhas, and therefore cannot be killed off. So, there you go again, Dorje Shugden is not a demon. End of story.

So, there must be a higher reason for the Dalai Lama to impose the ban. And the Dalai Lama is taking us on his big grand plan. Wait and see what the outcome will be. As of now, the Dorje Shugden practice is spreading like wild fire across the globe. Soon, the ban will be lifted and clear the air.