Author Topic: Seized by the Spirit - an account of Tibet's State oracle  (Read 7514 times)

honeydakini

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Seized by the Spirit - an account of Tibet's State oracle
« on: September 10, 2010, 03:31:22 AM »
I've been noticing quite a bit of discussion around about Nechung, and recently chanced upon this article online, which is an interview with the Tibet's state oracle. It's a PDF file, so I'm not quite sure how to convert this onto the forum, but here is the link:

http://www.3worlds.co.uk/Articles/Tibetan-Oracle.pdf

Do take a read. It's very interesting for gaining background on the significance and role of protectors in Tibetan history, culture, religion (of course) and traditions.

(It would also be good to read this alongside the biographical account of Choyang Kuten Lama, one of Tibet's most famous oracles of DS and Setrap. Read the original post and following comments here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=578.0)

triesa

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Re: Seized by the Spirit - an account of Tibet's State oracle
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2010, 06:38:19 AM »
Since we are on the topic of the state oracle, I heard that the protector that took trance to give indication to Dalai Lama on the route that he should take during his escape from Tibet to India was infact Dorje Shugden instead of Nechung.

Anyone can elaborate and confirm this?

Triesa

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Re: Seized by the Spirit - an account of Tibet's State oracle
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2010, 09:36:45 AM »
Hi Triesa,

There's a video here on dorjeshugden.com that shows a Sera monk, who was there to listen to Shugden's oracle, giving advice and routes for His Holiness' escape and guaranteed His Holiness' safety:

Advice from Dorje Shugden that His Holiness should leave and that He guarantees H.H. safety
http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1239


Also Helmut Gassner, the former German translator for the Dalai Lama from 1979-1995 has also made statements related to this:

1) Another particularly impressive figure of old Tibet was the Dalai Lama’s Chamberlain, Kungo Phala, whom you may vividly remember seeing in the movie Kundun. He was a guest in my home in Feldkirch on several occasions. It was he who in 1959 organized His Holiness’ escape from the Norbulingka summer palace. He sometimes spoke to me about it, perhaps because he was pleased with the progress I was making in my Tibetan language studies. The preparations for the escape were made in absolute secrecy and strictly followed instructions received from Dorje Shugden. I asked him what thoughts were on his mind when he had to make his way through the crowds surrounding the Norbulingka with the Dalai Lama, disguised as a servant, just behind him. He said that everything happened exactly as the Dorje Shugden oracle from Panglung Monastery had predicted. (Panglung Rinpoche now lives in Munich.) In particularly dangerous situations, he felt he was moving within a protected space, his feet seemingly not even touching the ground. I later heard many more accounts about the escape from other people who were personally involved in it, like Trijang Rinpoche’s attendants and monks of Pomra Khamtsen of Sera Mey Monastery, who had been chosen as the Dalai Lama’s personal bodyguards.

Today, in the Dalai Lama’s biography we read that Nechung, the State Oracle while in trance traced the entire escape route from the gates of the Norbulingka to the final destination in India. I heard from those who actually organized the flight that, at the time, the State Oracle’s predictions were treated with greatest caution. The Nechung Oracle has a large entourage of monks and so it was feared that the oracle’s predictions might reach Chinese ears. The only predictions that were repeatedly mentioned were the State Oracle’s calls for “The Lord of the Land of Snow to stay in the land.” Among the officials who helped in the planning of the escape were some who wanted to bring only His Holiness to safety, leaving his family behind. It was thanks to the Chamberlain Phala’s decisive intervention that the Dalai Lama’s entire family made it into exile.



2) During his first escape from Lhasa in 1950/51, the Fourteenth Dalai Lama, while in Yadrung (Tromo) received valuable advice from Dorje Shugden and was moved to write some beautiful praises to him. His Holiness was staying at Dungkar Monastery of the famous master Tomo Geshe Rinpoche who lives mostly in the U.S.A. today. This master’s former incarnation was described by Lama Govinda in his book The Way of the White Clouds. Tomo Geshe Rinpoche is also one of the most prominent masters among those who revere Dorje Shugden. In 1957, Dorje Shugden recommended that the Tibetan guerrilla establish a military base to the south of Lhasa. By 1959, it turned out to be the only route that had not fallen to the Chinese. The Dalai Lama fled along this route. The Dalai Lama’s presence in the free world today bears testimony to the success of this enterprise.



3) It would have been the State Oracle’s duty to offer the Dalai Lama help during the critical events of 1959. According to all trustworthy eye-witnesses I know and consulted, the State Oracle did not provide any help on that occasion. After the Dalai Lama and his retinue had fled, the State Oracle only found out the following day that he had been left behind. His own escape was later organized by monks from Drepung Monastery. Once in exile, his role lost prominence until the early 1970’s, when that oracle started to quietly persuade the Dalai Lama that he should take his distance from Dorje Shugden. In other words, the origin of Dorje Shugden’s current level of defamation is not the Dalai Lama’s own idea but rather the State Oracle’s, who in his prophesies over the following twenty-five years made Dorje Shugden responsible for all the tragedies that befell Tibet and the Tibetans.


From: Helmut Gassner, Dalai Lama, Dorje Shugden, pp. 3, 4, & 8, 26 March 1999 at this link: http://www.dharmaprotector.org/SpeechAtNaumannFoundation.pdf

beggar

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Re: Seized by the Spirit - an account of Tibet's State oracle
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2010, 05:10:57 PM »
There have been many accounts in more "recent times" in the last 100 years or so where Nechung has given mistaken advice through certain oracles, or where there has been certain political disagreements or oracles fell out of favour with the main authorities.

One of the most common and frequently recited examples is how a Nechung oracle supposedly gave the 13th Dalai Lama the wrong medicine, which cost him his life. Apparently, it was suggested that this oracle was instigated by the spirit of a tulku who had become harmful.

Then again, can the dalai lama really just be harmed by some wrong medicine? Chenrezig can die simply by some wrong medicine? It won't make sense to say that. Leads to another loophole. It does seem something strange is going on that perhaps only dalai lama, nechung and dorje shugden might know about... maybe it could be something that deliberately leads to the "downfall" of Nechung and the subsequent rise of Dorje Shugden. Worth thinking about anyway.

WisdomBeing

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Re: Seized by the Spirit - an account of Tibet's State oracle
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2010, 01:50:27 AM »
There have been many accounts in more "recent times" in the last 100 years or so where Nechung has given mistaken advice through certain oracles, or where there has been certain political disagreements or oracles fell out of favour with the main authorities.

One of the most common and frequently recited examples is how a Nechung oracle supposedly gave the 13th Dalai Lama the wrong medicine, which cost him his life. Apparently, it was suggested that this oracle was instigated by the spirit of a tulku who had become harmful.

Then again, can the dalai lama really just be harmed by some wrong medicine? Chenrezig can die simply by some wrong medicine? It won't make sense to say that. Leads to another loophole. It does seem something strange is going on that perhaps only dalai lama, nechung and dorje shugden might know about... maybe it could be something that deliberately leads to the "downfall" of Nechung and the subsequent rise of Dorje Shugden. Worth thinking about anyway.


Agreed - Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was 'poisoned' by his enemies but he did not have the karma to be harmed by the poison. I read that he was not affected by the poison and simply expelled it.

In another thread, entitled Nechung/Pehar (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=916.0), i put forward this hypothesis:

Here's a possibiilty - that perhaps Nechung also is part of the bigger picture. According to the book Oracles and Demons, it is prophesied that Nechung will become enlightened and leave as Dharma protector of Tibet, and then Dorje Shugden will take his place. If Nechung was already enlightened, or if it was Setrap for example who was the dharma protector instead of Nechung - Setrap would be already enlightened so he would not vacate the position for DS, hence this 'chess move' would not happen... does that make sense?

just food for thought.

Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

kurava

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Re: Seized by the Spirit - an account of Tibet's State oracle
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2010, 03:10:27 AM »


"Then again, can the dalai lama really just be harmed by some wrong medicine? Chenrezig can die simply by some wrong medicine? It won't make sense to say that. Leads to another loophole. It does seem something strange is going on that perhaps only dalai lama, nechung and dorje shugden might know about... maybe it could be something that deliberately leads to the "downfall" of Nechung and the subsequent rise of Dorje Shugden. Worth thinking about anyway. "


Dear beggar,
Yup, it could be part of the "larger picture" .
On the other hand, we must remember that Chenrezig , the wisdom form cannot be affected by anything but his manifestation in human aggregates is susceptible to worldly harms and we have the karma to see Chenrezig dies  :D

icy

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Re: Seized by the Spirit - an account of Tibet's State oracle
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2010, 08:03:06 AM »
There have been many accounts in more "recent times" in the last 100 years or so where Nechung has given mistaken advice through certain oracles, or where there has been certain political disagreements or oracles fell out of favour with the main authorities.

One of the most common and frequently recited examples is how a Nechung oracle supposedly gave the 13th Dalai Lama the wrong medicine, which cost him his life. Apparently, it was suggested that this oracle was instigated by the spirit of a tulku who had become harmful.

Then again, can the dalai lama really just be harmed by some wrong medicine? Chenrezig can die simply by some wrong medicine? It won't make sense to say that. Leads to another loophole. It does seem something strange is going on that perhaps only dalai lama, nechung and dorje shugden might know about... maybe it could be something that deliberately leads to the "downfall" of Nechung and the subsequent rise of Dorje Shugden. Worth thinking about anyway.



Yes, Beggar has a good point. 

These Beings could be working for the rise of Dorje Shugen and phasing out Nechung as the protector  A reflection of the past history of Dorje Shugden, the scene was in Tibet.  This time the scene is on the world stage instead of Tibet.  It is another chapter of Dorje Shugden soaring to greater height to benefit beings around the world and is also orchestrated by the Dalai Lama.


How powerful!

triesa

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Re: Seized by the Spirit - an account of Tibet's State oracle
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2010, 03:19:26 PM »
Also, it was nechung who appeared as a white Dove to ask Duldzin Drakpa Gyeltsen to arise a Dharma protector to protect the Lord Tsongkhapa's teachings. So it looks like that Nechung, and H.H. Dalai Lama are making way for Dorje Shugden to  airse at this time as a powerful uncommon protector of this age.

Triesa

Big Uncle

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Re: Seized by the Spirit - an account of Tibet's State oracle
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2010, 11:06:29 PM »
Also, it was nechung who appeared as a white Dove to ask Duldzin Drakpa Gyeltsen to arise a Dharma protector to protect the Lord Tsongkhapa's teachings. So it looks like that Nechung, and H.H. Dalai Lama are making way for Dorje Shugden to  airse at this time as a powerful uncommon protector of this age.

Triesa

I know what you mean. It all seems like some sort of play, the Buddhas and their 'helpers' seem to take dramatic roles that oppose each other but they are really trying to promote the Dharma. What is really interesting is how Nechung was pivotal in Dorje Shugden arising as a Dharma Protector and yet still gives advice against Dorje Shugden. He purportedly guided the Dalai Lama out of Tibet but we know that it is actually Dorje Shugden that guided the Dalai Lama out of Tibet.
Now we also hear that he advised the Dalai Lama to give up Dorje Shugden as well! Perhaps what the Dalai Lama is doing for Dorje Shugden might even be his idea. We will never know.


triesa

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Re: Seized by the Spirit - an account of Tibet's State oracle
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2010, 12:23:17 AM »
When all these episodes unfold themselves in contradictions, it couldn't just be contradictions then especially when these contradictions are so obvious to even our common minds.

I believe that Nechung may even slip away quietly when all these have been accomplished. H.H.the Dalai Lama will leave one day too, even his reputation is at stake after he is gone, I don't think he will mind at all as he is Chenrizig, enlightened beings only work for the benefit of all beings, not for their reputation if it is called for to make King Dorje Shugden to arise as the uncommon protector of this time.

Triesa