Author Topic: pictures  (Read 153963 times)

Mitchell

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Re: pictures
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2008, 09:35:48 PM »

Drear Mountains

I thank you for your response and no need for any apologies. It is highly commendable to enjoy an open debate forum between like-minded persons and this in itself defeats many accusations of our opponents who do not countenance such things as regards their own policies. I do respect your opinion and your rebuttals of my suggestions and I am happy to concede where appropriate and otherwise respond.

First I happily acknowledge you must be right as regards NKT policy towards propitiation of Guru Rinpoche. What I stated was what I understood to be the case in the UK 20 or more years ago, evidently mistakenly, but if it was never true or it has changed in the meantime that is fine. I accept your assurance 100%. Thanks for correcting me.

Secondly dare I suggest that comparing the situation of our monks in South India to the American democratic civil rights movement of the 1960s could be a false analogy. My premise is more that it resembles the situation in Tibet when the totalitarian Chinese PLA was in power in Tibet and was proceeding to exterminate Buddhism. In the former case, yes, one can resort to legal arguments in a democratic milieu, and based on the protection of a democratic and open society the civil rights movement can succeed, as it did so well. In the latter case, you have only two alternatives: be persecuted to death, or escape and establish your community in a safe place out of the reach of the oppressor, who despite the injustice of it all, has all the temporal power. I refer of course to the real situation as described elsewhere on this honourable website.

The Tibetan refugees from communism in the 1950's and 1960's were in the latter category and escaped to India and this very pragmatic "escape strategy" is what has preserved all the richness of Tibetan Dharma for us to inherit. If all the Tibetans had stayed in Tibet, and argued civil rights with the Chinese PLA, like the blacks in the USA, as many did, and as you would seem to prefer, it would most probably have become a lost cause and with few exceptions it did in fact lead to perdition and Dharma being largely wiped out altogether. Then there would have been no Tibetan refugee community in India, no diaspora of Tibetan Lamas in the west, in fact no Dharma going to the west, and no Dharmapala for you and me. Luckily, I say, the Tibetans were pragmatic (that is all I am floating here) and so here we are today – so fortunate! Any lessons to be learned?

I trust you now see the drift of my argument in a slightly better perspective. Let me know how you feel about it.

With respect and in all friendship,

John Mitchell

jeff Ryan

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Re: pictures
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2008, 10:05:03 PM »
John Mitchel,
I too am a disciple of Kyabje Zong Dorje Chang and I never I repeat never heard Him speak of Dorje Shugden as anything other than a Supermundane protector. I heard him predict the troubles we are now seeing when he gave the commentary to Heruka at Vajrapani in California. I did not have the good fortune to be in the presence of H.H. Trijang Dorje Chang but I have read enough including the kangtso to Dorje Shugden that clearly states that Dorje Shugden is Manjushri ,etc. a Supermundane protector. My best wishes to you.

mountains

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Re: pictures
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2008, 11:14:33 PM »
Dear Jeff Ryan,

How fortunate you were at Vajrapani to attend Kyabje Zong Rinpoche's commentary on Heruka.  At that time, you said, that Rinpoche predicted the troubles we are seeing now, but did Rinpoche mention anything else like when the troubles will finish, or how it will conclude, or what will happen?

Please do your best to recall any further predictions Zong Rinpoche made re this issue.  Thank you.

jeff Ryan

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Re: pictures
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2008, 12:18:59 AM »
I have the recording of the teaching .. i will have to find the exact spot.

Alexis

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Re: pictures
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2008, 01:28:02 AM »
You guys are seriously discussing with this fraud!

Do you seriously Zong Dorjechang could have said the things this guy said he heard? Come on!

“DS must be controlled, don’t let him take you over”. Come On! From Zong Rimpoche?

"DS has always been good to me, done incredible unbelievable things which I won't recount here because you would not believe it, causing thousands of deaths." Causing thousands of Deaths??? Come on guys this is such crazy non-sense! you guys are replying to this clown!!!!!!!

"If our NKT students are discovered propitiating Guru Rinpoche..." Now he's from NKT !!??

"If our practitioners in India are not allowed in the monasteries or the settlements because the owners don’t like what they do, let's take a hike to more friendly pastures." He's supposed to be a student of Zong Rimpoche and Trijang Rimpoche but makes such naive statement over the 'owners' and doesn't know about monastic rules, Land properties, history of the practice, etc. Remember he's supposed to be an elder close student of both Lamas.

This is crap from A to Z this should be so obvious guys..........The whole script is just confused hilarious crap!

Rest your fingers friends........

« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 01:34:59 AM by Alexis »

Alexis

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Re: pictures
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2008, 01:30:10 AM »
And you are being so polite with this clown !

Alexis

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Re: pictures
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2008, 02:46:19 AM »
Dorje Shugden is to one who tamed Pabongkha and then requested him to teach Lam Rim for the benefits of millions of people.

It's an honor to be tamed directly by Dorje Shugden like a Guru-disciple relationship.

Also anybody who has read the Kangso even just once will notice hundreds of praise to Dorje Shugden's activities such as taming and showing the path.

Dorje Shugden doesn't need to be controlled. We need to be controlled and protected from ourselves. That's His main job.

Any body who tells me Zong Rimpoche said 'Dorje Shugden has to be controlled' I call him a LIAR and a FRAUD!

Admin, you should do a better job in cleaning up this website from these clowns otherwise the whole thing is going to turn into a Circus (It has already started, hasn't it?).

Vajra

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Re: pictures
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2008, 05:49:52 AM »
Mitchell,

I´m a member of the NKT since 8 years ago. Of course, I think, you have many much years than me in the NKT. I have not the fortune and the blessings of having known HH Zong and Trijang Rinpoches.

You said that:

"If our NKT students are discovered propitiating Guru Rinpoche or were found to have attended The Dalai Lama’s teachings, what happens? We throw them out before you can say “Jack Flash”. That’s the NKT’s right, because it’s our organisation..."

I will quote some words of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso to this respect:

Can I Practice Buddhist and Non-Buddhist Teachings?

I find it [Christianity] a very nice religion, you know. A very nice religion. Relatively, sometimes it’s very similar to Buddhist ideas: encouraging people, we should love each other, help, be a good person, don’t do bad things... In the beginning, people can learn both, try to understand both (religions). But finally it’s very necessary to choose one. Otherwise there’ll be fighting inside, conflict. So therefore, finally they need to choose one. (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, The Guide: Following the Buddhist Path, © 1996, 2000, 2007)


Can I Practice Different Buddhist Traditions at Once?

In the chapter on effort in Guide to the Bodhisattva’s Way of Life Shantideva advises us that before we commit ourself to engaging in a practice we should investigate it carefully to see whether it is suitable and whether we can sustain it; but once we have committed ourself to it we should never turn back but continue until we attain the final result. Switching from one practice to another unrelated practice not only prevents us from fulfilling our wishes in this life, but also makes it difficult for us to accomplish our goals in future lives. Moreover, it is often the cause of breaking our commitments and severing precious relationships, such as those that exist between Guru and disciple, and between spiritual friends.

We must be careful not to misunderstand the effort of non-satisfaction. Practicing this effort does not mean that we should become dissatisfied with our tradition or with our main practice, and try to follow many different traditions or mix together many different practices. Every Teacher and every tradition has a slightly different approach and employs different methods. The practices taught by one Teacher will differ from those taught by another, and if we try to combine them we shall become confused, develop doubts, and lose direction. If we try to create a synthesis of different traditions we shall destroy the special power of each and be left only with a mishmash of our own making that will be a source of confusion and doubt. Having chosen our tradition and our daily practices we should rely upon them single-pointedly, never allowing dissatisfaction to arise. At the same time as cherishing our own tradition we should respect all other traditions and the right of each individual to follow the tradition of their choosing. This approach leads to harmony and tolerance. It is mixing different religious traditions that causes sectarianism. This is why it is said that studying non-religious subjects is less of an obstacle to our spiritual progress than studying religions of different traditions.

Once we have decided which tradition to follow and which practices to do, we should engage in them wholeheartedly with a joyful mind. This is the power of joy. Whether we are listening to Dharma teachings, reading Dharma books, reciting prayers, contemplating, or meditating, we should do so with a light and happy mind, like a child at play. If we enjoy a practice we shall naturally have enthusiasm for it. (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Understanding the Mind: an Explanation of the Nature and Functions of the Mind, pp. 161-162, © 1993, 1997, 2002)
 

Is there a Rule that NKT Students Can Read Only NKT Books?

The NKT people have complete choice to read whatever books they choose, to follow other Teachers and to practise in whatever way they want. There are no rules limiting people’s freedom. However, I have understood according to experience that many Westerners find themselves in conflicting situations because of following many Teachers who give them opposite advice. Therefore they find serious obstacles in their spritual path. But still individuals have choice to practise in the way they choose. (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan, 16 November 1997)
 

[From Gen-la Kelsang Khyenrab, Deputy Spiritual Director of the NKT:]

The books at Manjushri Centre’s library, as Dharma texts, were treated with respect; they were given to Centres and libraries which studied the particular traditions explained within them. What is wrong with this?

New Kadampa disciples study the teachings of Buddha passed down through Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition to the modern Masters Je Phabongkhapa, Trijang Dorjechang and Ven. Geshe Kelsang. Other Centres study Buddha’s teachings according to their own lineage gurus. What is wrong with different spiritual families having their own special texts? Why is this so often misconstrued as sectarian? Why, because we are content to study and practise the path to enlightenment given to us by our root Guru, are we accused of sectarianism? This is plain nonsense.

In the early days at Tara Centre, we had several hundred books covering the whole range of Buddhist traditions. Each book was authentic and came from its own special lineage; we had the Pali Canon, Zen texts and many, many others. Many people would read these books and often the Centre would be host to seemingly endless and inconclusive discussions about people’s personal preferences in terms of Teachers, traditions and practices. It was very confusing and agreement about the actual meaning of Buddha’s teachings was very difficult to achieve.

Later I learned that it is accepted in Tibetan monasteries that each college has its own ‘yig cha’ or special understanding and interpretation of the teachings gained by study of a specific set of texts covering the whole Dharma within one tradition. By studying in this way clarity of meaning was far easier to attain due to a standard set of definitions of technical terms throughout each of the texts. (The editors at Tharpa Publications, for example, work constantly with Geshe Kelsang to standardise the terminology throughout his books to aid clarity of understanding for the serious student.)

It was the mid-1980’s and I had already received lots of teachings from many teachers of different traditions—very wonderful in itself but difficult to get a sense of making progress in learning and practising Dharma in any systematic and sequential way. We were students of Ven. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, a fully accomplished meditation Master who had received fully the lineages of instructions within Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition.

He was in the process of publishing a complete set of texts covering the entire path to enlightenment. Each of these texts are authenticated by reference to the works of Je Tsongkhapa. When the Teacher Training Programme based on these books began at Tara Centre I saw the opportunity to study in a clear and systematic way the entire range of Buddha’s teachings on both Sutra and Tantra.

Therefore I saw nothing wrong with giving away all those texts from the library that were not part of this tradition. To me it made a lot of sense because at last there would be clarity. I remember at the time several people at the Centre, misunderstanding our intention, remarked that giving away the books was wrong, narrow-minded, disrespectful etc.

To me, sending the texts to the other Centres was quite appropriate and an action of generosity to boot! Some of those centres were very happy to receive valuable augmentation of their libraries and wrote to thank us. Useless heated debates about the meaning of Dharma from the point of view of a certain Zen master versus that of a certain Theravadin master became, thankfully, a thing of the past. Those who wished to follow Zen teachings would go to a Zen Centre and those who wished to follow a Theravadin could do the same and those wishing to follow Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition could study at Tara Centre.

I know from my own experience that the action of bringing clarity to our library and study programmes, far from being sectarian, actually reduced sectarian feelings among the Centre members. How wonderful for all traditions to happily enjoy the clarity and precision of Dharma understanding that I feel is now possible to attain in New Kadampa Centres. I have no reason to suppose that other traditions cannot do this and I rejoice in their special characteristics.

At Tara Centre no-one has ever been, or is now, forced to stop reading the books of other teachers; individual people were, and still are completely free to keep and read books by any other Teachers, Buddhist or non-Buddhist—and they do!

However, Tara Centre as an institution follows the ‘yig cha’ according to Ven. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso’s texts and therefore on the study programmes those books are studied and those books only are in the library and shop. There is no need to promote the books of other traditions; if individuals wish they can purchase them through mail-order or visit the local Waterstones, Dillons etc. (Gen-la Kelsang Khyenrab, alt.religions.buddhism.tibetan, 23 January 1998)
 
7§3. The Resident Teacher’s commitments shall include: ...to teach only subjects that form part of the three NKT Study Programmes; ...to respect other spiritual traditions and try to maintain good relations with them, but the Resident Teacher shall not mix his or her teachings and spiritual practices with those of other spiritual traditions;...

 
[Please note: Emphasis added to show that these rules apply only to Teachers, and even then only in terms of what is taught on the NKT study programs, not what they may or may not read in private. As was explored in Standing Up for the Middle Way, not all forms of exclusivism are sectarian.]

That is to say, we can read another books of another traditions or religions, there is nothing wrong with that, as we can not mix all that we read. We can read another Buddhist lineages, for example, in order to undestand the history of Budhhism, lineages, systems of beliefs or whatever, but we have to concentrate in our tradition if we have made the choice or the compromise with ourselves to belong to this tradition. Actually, Gueshe Kelsang have said that it would be very useful to read another buddhist texts or treatises of Pabongkha, Shantideva, Trijang,Tsongkapha, Langri Tangpa, Atisha, Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Milarepa, Naropa etc...

This is not a complaint, I olny want to clarify certain, not in my words, but in the words of Gueshe Kelsang and Guen-la Kelsang Khyenrab

With sincere love
Vajra
 

 



Dave

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Re: pictures
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2008, 06:25:13 AM »
Wonderful Vajra,this should be placed In wikipedia for all those opposed to our tradition can finally understand.

I will have the good fortune to meet Gen-la this February in a meeting with our sangha during his Ca. tour...will be wonderful to speak with him.

PS,any response from Manjushri about the letter regarding this website?

Blessings,
David

Mitchell

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Re: pictures
« Reply #39 on: January 30, 2008, 11:29:39 AM »
Dear Alexis

Don’t get so excited. I have been a Buddhist since 1963 – that’s 45 years. I remember distinctly when it came on the news that the Dalai Lama came out of Tibet on March 31st 1959 and I immediately started researching what this meant. I then travelled to India in 1965 to meet the lamas, to find the enlightened ones. That was 2 years before the first lamas came to the west (Akhong Rinpoche and Chogyam Trungpa were the first out, they went to the UK in 1967).

Now I see the hundreds of lamas and geshes all over the world – there are 4,350 Buddhist centres in North America alone – most of them practising the Dharmapala.

So yes, you can call me a fraud and a liar and rant as much as you like, but I have nothing to lose and no pretensions, I tell you the honest truth.

Thousands died? You don’t believe me? It was back in ’78, when I was incarcerated in an Iranian jail, Zendan Vakilabad, outside the holy city of Mashed, on a 44-year sentence. My name is registered there as a prisoner to this day, anyone can check.  Due to the ‘legal’ system in Iran at the time, there was no hope whatsoever of my reprieve or release. I therefore requested pujas which invoked the protector to be carried out by my friends in India, to get me out of there, pronto, and these commenced in the first week of November 1978. The special requests were first for the prison walls to shake, as I sign that I would soon be released, and second for the Shah to be overthrown as this was the only way I could hope to get out of jail.

As soon as the first puja was completed there was an immediate severe earthquake and unfortunately – it was not foreseen, desired or expected by me – around 5,000 people in the local region, Khorasan, lost their lives. Check the history of this news on the internet.  The walls did shake, believe me! The pujas continued and the Iranian Islamic Revolution then began in earnest. The Shah called in the helicopters to machine-gun the rioting crowds, and ordered the tanks to run amok in the slum areas, crushing the huts and all the people inside them. But it did not go well for him and by the end of December I was freed by the Islamic revolutionaries and helped out of Iran by my revolutionary friends within a couple of weeks, just before Khomeini arrived back from Paris. The morning I got into Teheran about January 14th, it was full of revolutionary guards toting Kalashnikovs, many buildings were burning, bodies lay in the streets - and the Shah had fled to exile in Egypt just the night before with his wife, never to return. If Khomeini knew exactly how it was that he got there and became Supreme Leader of Iran and the Islamic Revolution that followed, he would also have been very grateful to me and Dorje Shugden!

I am sorry it did not turn out well for the US of A, either!

So don’t get so excited, Alexis, and don’t abuse me; in fact don’t abuse anyone. Getting so angry when confronted with the truth makes you look bad, and not only is it against the rules of this respected forum but I also evidently have a very good relationship with DS, bear it in mind.

About Guru Rinpoche and the NKT, I already conceded the point to Mountains, can’t you read? I have no problem at all admitting when I am wrong about something and apologising for it. But it remains true, I think, that if NKT students attend Dalai Lama events they are out, anyway you get the point, right? The owners make the rules, for the wise men and the fools...

I have never been a member of the NKT either, don’t misread me, I wrote “our” NKT only in the sense they that are part of "our" DS movement (in a loose sense that it).  I will join no such organisation, I don’t need it, membership organisations are for poor lost people to cling to in my view and I don't feel like that.

If you want to have me banned from your forum and call me a fraud and a liar, and my suggestions to be bullshit and crap, simply because you disagree with my opinions and my experience, gnashing your teeth like that in response to sensible, pragmatic, realistic and practical suggestions about the misguided long term strategy you are apparently suporting, people will have to draw their own conclusions about you and your forum, won’t they? No problem, I have better things to do, I was just trying to help.

Why don’t you check with DS about me first? You might just be in for a little surprise!

I hope this helps you get a better perspective and are able to cool down a bit and admit you overstepped the mark of this forum.

In all friendship,

John Mitchell

Alexis

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Re: pictures
« Reply #40 on: January 30, 2008, 11:47:44 AM »
You have no relationship with Dorje Shugden and you obviously have never read the Kangso.

Also you were never a close or direct disciple of either Zong Rimpoche or Trijang Rimpoche.

"Dorje Shugden needs to be controlled" is Dharamsala crap propaganda, saying that show you have no connexion with the Ganden Lineage...your a Fraud!

No need to reply to your lies and made up stories!
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 11:54:22 AM by Alexis »

jeff Ryan

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Re: pictures
« Reply #41 on: January 30, 2008, 11:55:27 AM »
John,

You haven't sold me. I don't really want to get into a debate over what our Masters taught regarding the Enlightened nature of our Dharmapala. It is very well documented. Your statement about controlling is contradictory to everything taught by H.H. Trijang Dorje Chang and H.H. Zong Dorje Chang. The kangtso authored by H.H. Trijang Dorje Chang contradicts your assertion. There are many many more evidences but I will spend no more time on it.You will forgive me if I choose to believe our Lineage Masters over you. I heard Dulzin say once: " Those that view me as a Buddha receive the blessing of the Buddha, those that view me as a protector receive the blessing of a protector, those that view me as a ghost receive the blessing of a ghost".
Jeff

Alexis

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Re: pictures
« Reply #42 on: January 30, 2008, 12:19:33 PM »
Also, to imply that the practice of Dorje Shugden causes calamities such as earthquakes or that it causes death of innocent people (by the thousands!!!) is so ridiculous, it's pathetic! Because all of us Dorje Shugden practitionners know that even if you pray to Duldzin with an angry mind and an evil motivation for a 1000 years, your will only get peaceful results that subdue your own mind.

It's better you follow your own idea and head off to greener pasture..who ever you are!
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 06:27:50 PM by Alexis »

Mitchell

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Re: pictures
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2008, 01:57:18 PM »
Dear Alexis and jeff ryan

Now just calm down, there is no fraud, only someone offering good advice if you had the ears to hear it, everything I’ve written is absolutely true and you are assuming a great deal more than what I have stated, then calling me a fraud for not being what you have yourself wrongly assumed. You should get your exercise in other ways than jumping to conclusions, you might get ruptured.

First of I have never, ever written that I was a DS practitioner, and neither I have ever, ever written that I was not. My practice is totally private to myself alone and I would never reveal it to anyone but my teachers. Certainly not over the internet, to faceless and unstable people writing secretly under false identities like yourselves. Check it out. Quote me, and I will answer you again, I am ready for it and up to it. Truth speaks with its own voice and your baby-like browbeating, protestations and shriekings do not intimidate me in the least.

I have got my root guru Kyabje Zong Rinpoche on tape saying what exactly what I have quoted, which I heard with my own ears, and I can send you a copy if you so desire - if you deign to ask me nicely.

I also very much hope that you are right, and the thousands who died in Iran in the course of my impossible escape did not lose their lives due to the intervention of DS. It just seemed far too much of a coincidence at the time, and my DS friends in India who did me the service certainly claimed full credit for the deadly efficacy of their pujas, invoking DS to get me out of there. They also took the money. So let us give DS the benefit of the doubt and say that it was your DS puja-wallahs who were fraudulent, OK?

Is there anything else at all that you think I have been “fraudulent” about? Or are you being over-defensive, i.e. paranoid schizoid psychos?

Let me know, and I will prove you wrong. Dead wrong!

John Mitchell

richard

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Re: pictures
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2008, 03:13:03 PM »
For Alexis.
This man has a problem in his mind, we dont response him unless he reduce his proudness.