Author Topic: Self-immolations against Buddhist preachings, says Tibetan spiritual leader  (Read 17106 times)

beggar

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Re: Self-immolations against Buddhist preachings, says Tibetan spiritual leader
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2012, 12:41:51 PM »
It isn't a new thing that the Dalai Lama has used religious reasons to counter seemingly "secular" issues. This is clear with the Dorje Shugden issue - i.e. that the religious worship of DS jeopardizes the cause for Tibet's freedom. (how can a religious practice have any direct bearing on a very political issue like this?)

So to counter the terrible destruction of self-immolations, the Dalai Lama should also speak just as strongly, and bring in the religious aspect. What the Dalai Lama should say regarding the self-immolations is that by doing so, one breaks samaya with the Dalai Lama. As the Tibetans have so much respect and devotion to him, this will be a very strong thing for him to say. It is also the truth after all, for self-immolation is equal to killing, which directly contravenes the refuge vows... and breaking refuge vows of course breaks samaya with the Dalai lama, especially if one regards him as their spiritual teacher.

So why doesn't he say anything?

The Dalai Lama has said many, many times and very strongly that people who practice Dorje Shugden break samaya with him and should therefore not have anything to do with him, meet him or attend /receive any of his teachings. Why does the "breaking of samaya" apply only in the case of Dorje Shugden practitioners, but not for when people commit something as atrocious as self-immolation?

There are double standards and absolutely no consistency in the way the government upholds their statements and policies. Having not said anything, we could therefore only conclude that the Dalai Lama and the CTA are in support of these immolations - perhaps even the ones inciting it? You certainly couldn't fault anyone for coming to that conclusion.

Tenzin Malgyur

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Re: Self-immolations against Buddhist preachings, says Tibetan spiritual leader
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2012, 04:34:52 PM »
Finally, a Tibetan spiritual leader have spoken against self immolation after more than 80 Tibetans have set themselves on fire and died. Lets hope the Tibetans realized that setting themselves on fire will not gain them the independence of Tibet. Instead, they have been advised to strengthen their spirituality and not focus on political independence. This is such a precious advice.  What about the shugdenpas, should they lobby for their religious independence?

WisdomBeing

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Re: Self-immolations against Buddhist preachings, says Tibetan spiritual leader
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2012, 08:21:14 AM »
What I find particularly sad about the self-immolation issue is that the CTA and the Dalai Lama is using self-immolation as proof of human rights violations. How does that work? The Chinese government is not forcing people to burn themselves. On the contrary, they are trying to find ways to stop this self-destructive practice which benefits no one. The Chinese say that the Dalai Lama is behind the self-immolations. I can see why. It is because the Dalai Lama has not said anything against it.

As Beggar had said, if the Dalai Lama was to speak strongly against self-immolations, the Tibetans may listen. Ban this practice of self-immolation because it benefits no one. It is only about political power and geography. Dharma should transcend that. Preserving our precious human life, according to the lam rim, should transcend that. Instead of suicide, the self-immolators should practice Dharma for the benefit of all sentient beings. Isn’t that the purpose of our lives?

Fortunately no Dorje Shugden practitioners have self-immolated for the sake of their cause. It just shows that Dorje Shugden practitioners see the purpose of their practice despite the obstacles they face because of the ridiculous and illogical ban.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Ensapa

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Re: Self-immolations against Buddhist preachings, says Tibetan spiritual leader
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2012, 08:27:30 AM »
What I find particularly sad about the self-immolation issue is that the CTA and the Dalai Lama is using self-immolation as proof of human rights violations. How does that work? The Chinese government is not forcing people to burn themselves. On the contrary, they are trying to find ways to stop this self-destructive practice which benefits no one. The Chinese say that the Dalai Lama is behind the self-immolations. I can see why. It is because the Dalai Lama has not said anything against it.

As Beggar had said, if the Dalai Lama was to speak strongly against self-immolations, the Tibetans may listen. Ban this practice of self-immolation because it benefits no one. It is only about political power and geography. Dharma should transcend that. Preserving our precious human life, according to the lam rim, should transcend that. Instead of suicide, the self-immolators should practice Dharma for the benefit of all sentient beings. Isn’t that the purpose of our lives?

Fortunately no Dorje Shugden practitioners have self-immolated for the sake of their cause. It just shows that Dorje Shugden practitioners see the purpose of their practice despite the obstacles they face because of the ridiculous and illogical ban.

I was watching a program on CCTV4 China, where they CAUGHT the people who instigated the self immolations and they actually confessed that they did it and they convince young tibetans to self immolate so that they will be remembered as heroes by the CTA. These people also carried various cameras to capture the self immolations to be sent to the outside world. When asked if they would immolate themselves for Tibet, they replied no as it was too painful. The people involved were given life sentences for instigating self immolations. You wont see that on phayul for sure. That was a very shocking interview to watch and it proves that CTA is going the wrong direction. The world is watching and they will lose the trust of the world in them.

vajratruth

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Re: Self-immolations against Buddhist preachings, says Tibetan spiritual leader
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2012, 12:34:11 PM »

So to counter the terrible destruction of self-immolations, the Dalai Lama should also speak just as strongly, and bring in the religious aspect. What the Dalai Lama should say regarding the self-immolations is that by doing so, one breaks samaya with the Dalai Lama. As the Tibetans have so much respect and devotion to him, this will be a very strong thing for him to say. It is also the truth after all, for self-immolation is equal to killing, which directly contravenes the refuge vows... and breaking refuge vows of course breaks samaya with the Dalai lama, especially if one regards him as their spiritual teacher.

So why doesn't he say anything?


The Dalai Lama has to speak because in fact quite a number of the self-immolations were religious dedications to His Holiness. People did it for the Dalai Lama and unless His Holiness wants to send out the message that it is a proper way to practice Buddhism, he should instruct and forbid the act. Let's look at some of the last words of the self-immolators:

-Sopa Rinpoche – I want to offer my life and body. It is for the long life of leader of the heaven and earth His Holiness the Dalai Lama and all other spiritual leaders, I offer my life and body as madala to them; may the merit and power of this offering enable all sentient beings attain the Buddhahood in future.

-Rangdol – May His Holiness the Dalai Lama live long!

-Tamding Thar – May His Holiness the Dalai return home!

-Tenzin Khedup & Ngawang Norphel – We self-immolate for the Tibetan nation, especially for His Holiness the Dalai Lama to live long and return to Tibet as soon as possible.

-Godrup – To greet His Holiness the Dalai Lama to return is the weal and woe all people of this snow land share and our collective goal.

-Samdup – May His Holiness the Dalai Lama live long; may the light of happiness shine on the land of snows.

-Tenzin Khedup & Ngawang Norphel – We are neither able to contribute anything for our culture and religion, nor do we have the ability to help the Tibetan people economically, so we self-immolate for the Tibetan nation, especially for His Holiness the Dalai Lama to live long and return to Tibet as soon as possible.

-Nyingkar Tashi – Release the Panchen Rinpoche, let His Holiness the Dalai Lama return!
Rickyo – For His Holiness to return to Tibet.

-Kelsang Jinpa – For equality of nationalities, freedom of Tibet, promotion of Tibetan language, and for His Holiness the Dalai Lama to return, I’ve decided to self-immolate.

-Nyinkar Tashi – Let His Holiness the Dalai Lama return to Tibet.

-Choepak Kyab & Sonam – Setting on fire for the basic human rights of Tibetans and world peace; for the nation’s freedom, prosperity of Dharma and happiness of all sentient beings.

[source: phayul.com]

The Dalai Lama should have spoken from the beginning since the first wave of self-immolations from 2009 to 2011 were by members of the sangha. Beggar is right and the Dalai Lama's words do carry a lot of weight with the Tibetans. I really don't understand this about His Holiness and so many of his actions seems contrary to logic. What are we missing?

icy

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Re: Self-immolations against Buddhist preachings, says Tibetan spiritual leader
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2012, 01:35:37 AM »
I fully agree and concur that self-immolation should stop now.  Self-immolation is indeed sacrilegious.  Wouldn't it better self-immolatars spend their life in meaningful pursuit in meditation and achieve buddhahood just like their predecessors instead of discriminating "I" and "my" country Tibet?  Once they have attained Buddhahood there would be no "I" and "my" but absolute power to help all sentient beings and liberate them from suffering.  Go for the bigger picture!

Ensapa

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Re: Self-immolations against Buddhist preachings, says Tibetan spiritual leader
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2012, 11:18:35 AM »
Quote
But WHY has the CTA said nothing? Actually all HHDL has to do is announce in the media and publicly that this self-immolation act is wrong, he does not condone it and it would be going against His wishes, and I am sure people will listen and STOP. But why has he not and instead create disharmony against Shugden practitioners which is such a small issue compared to this??? I am sure by doing this, China would be happy and perhaps this will create the possibility of China being a little bit more open to dialogue with them.

The reason why the CTA and the Dalai Lama has not spoken anything about the self immolations is because the CTA is behind the self immolations, using the Dalai Lama's name to convince people to burn themselves up. If they spoke out against it, the families of the self immolators would be deeply hurt as it would mean that their father, mother, wife, husband, brother, sister burned themselves up in vain. It would be extremely cruel to them and thus the Dalai Lama out of compassion for them has not spoken out against it and so has the CTA. They'll have to stop convincing people from immolating themselves before they can speak out against it and gain a foothold with their talks with China.

icy

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DHARAMSHALA, January 7: Tibetan spiritual leader His Holiness the Dalai Lama has renewed calls for a “thorough investigation” into the causes behind the spate of self-immolations inside Tibet.

The Dalai Lama was speaking to NDTV, a major Indian news channel, on its Sunday night talk show ‘Your Call.’

“Last year, when this (self-immolation) first happened, I was in Japan and I said that the time has come the Chinese government must carry thorough investigation and find the cause of these sad events,” the Tibetan spiritual leader said. “These events are symptom of some cause.”

He noted that two to three generations of Tibetans inside Tibet have “really suffered a lot” under China’s rule.

Since 2009, as many as 95 Tibetans have set themselves on fire protesting China’s occupation and demanding freedom and the return of the Dalai Lama from exile. Thousands of Tibetans have carried out mass protests even as Chinese authorities have increased their repressive policies and tightened the noose around self-immolations.

Responding to a question on whether he would appeal for the self-immolations to stop, the Dalai Lama said the exile Tibetan administration has never encouraged the protests.

“This question is politically sensitive. (Tibetan) political leaders have expressed right from the beginning, very clearly, that we never encourage such acts, but at the same time if we have something to offer them (self-immolators), then I can say, ‘You should not do this,’” the 77-year-old Tibetan leader said.

“So, in order to say something I must have something to offer them, but I have nothing. I feel very sorry, I say prayers. Apart from that, I can’t do anything.”

The Dalai Lama further added that the Chinese government’s tactics of blaming him for the protests will not solve the problem and urged Chinese leaders to “think more seriously” about the crisis in Tibet.

When asked about his optimism on China’s new leader Xi Jinping, the Tibetan spiritual leader said it is “too early to say” and noted that the new leaders have to follow a more realistic approach for their own interest.

“Using force is outdated. More violence, more suppression, more resentment, that's illogical,” the Dalai Lama said. “Therefore, I'm quite sure the new leadership will seek truth from facts and sooner or later follow a more realistic approach.”

Responding to a question on the possibility of seeing an independent Tibetan nation, the Dalai Lama said that although historically Tibet was an independent nation, it is more important to think ahead and look at the future.

“Yes, we were a separate nation but we should not necessarily just insist on that,” the Nobel peace laureate said. “Let us try to build a new kind of genuine union. If that fails then it's something different.”

His Holiness pointed out that the exile Tibetan administration’s policy of middle-way approach, which seeks autonomy for Tibet, has so far won a lot of support from the Chinese people.

“Emotionally, many young people say, "Oh we want independence" (but) they have never shown us how to achieve independence step by step,” the Dalai Lama said. “How much support from the Chinese people? How much support from the Indian government? How much support from the European Union? How much support from the United States? Thinking realistically is important.”

DharmaSpace

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Quote
Dalai Lama talks about self-immolation
Phayul[Tuesday, March 26, 2013 17:17]

A screen grab from Timesnow.tv
DHARAMSHALA, March 25: Speaking about the on-going self-immolation protest in Tibet, His Holiness the Dalai Lama said that “the ultimate factor is their (self-immolators) individual motivation.”

The Dalai Lama spoke to TIMES NOW, a major Indian news channel.

“Actually, suicide is basically (a) type of violence but then question of good or bad actually depend on the motivation and goal. I think (as) goal is concern, these (self-immolators) people (are) not drunk, (do) not (have) family problem, this (self-immolation) is for Buddha dharma, for Tibetan National interest but then I think the ultimate factor is their individual motivation,” the 77-year-old Tibetan spiritual leader said.

“If motivation (consists) too much anger, hatred, then it is negative (but) if the motivation (is) more compassionate, calm mind then such acts also can be positive. That is strictly speaking from Buddhist view of point. Any action whether violence or non violence, is ultimately depend on motivation.”

Since 2009 there have been 111 Tibetans self-immolations against China’s occupation. Overwhelming majority of them demanded freedom and return of the Dalai Lama from exile. Thousands of Tibetans have carried out mass protests even as Chinese authorities have increased their repressive policies and tightened the noose around self-immolations.

Responding to the question of China’s blame on the Tibetan spiritual leader for self-immolation and crisis ins Tibet, the Dalai Lama welcomed Chinese officials to “do thorough check” at his exile residence in Dharamshala.

“I am very good, please come here and (do) thorough check. Since 2008 crisis, even the former Prime minister Wen Jiabao (who) looks (as a) very nice (and) sensible person, he also accused (me) for the crisis that, it starts from India, I think he also mentioned my name, then immediately I responded, now please some Chinese officials, or international media, please come to Dharamshala (to do) through check,” the Tibetan spiritual leader said.

“Come to here instead of saying from distant. Come here, you will be our guest ... most important guest (and) check everything.”

On China’s new leadership and hopes to resolve the Tibetan issue with new leadership, the Tibetan Nobel Laureate said, “China is a another totalitarian and closed society. So the system as such, (a) few individuals cannot do much, but overall picture of China is changing. Today’s China, (as) compared to 30 to 40 years ago, much changed."

“China can do much more constructive role on global level or (in) Asia, for that trust (and) respect from the rest of the world is highly necessary in order to carry some constructive role. That is lacking now.”
On China’s restriction in allowing international and its lack of transparency in politics, the Dalai Lama pointed out that China should carry all political activities transparently, and promote rule of law and freedom for media.

“1.3 billions Chinese people have every right to know the reality and once 1.3 billion of Chinese people know the reality, they also have the ability to judge what is right or wrong.”

“Therefore censorship is immoral,” the Tibetan spiritual leader added.


I feel the CTA is behind this  in advising the Dalai Lama not to ask the immolations to stop. Though the Dalai Lama said motivation is the determining factor, but are all the 111 people who immolated have pure altruistic view and intention, the monks who have immolated perhaps through their training/discipline they have generated much more pure motivation but what about those lay people, unenlightened ones immolation is surely going to just send them to the lower realms.

Also CTA have other people to bleed and die for them, hence why do any work when people are sacrificing their bodies to do the work they must do.

The article below is saying CTA is asking people to stop immolation but on phayul.com there is a video on the immolation, so if we do not want the immolation to go on why put up a video on it, this is very contradictory like all CTA policies. CTA says it wants freedom/ democracy but they oppress Dorje Shugden people some of whom are their own kin.  Well CTA please learn up about cause and effect, the effects resembles the causes. You want freedom you have to start giving it to Dorje Shudgen practitioners!

http://tibet.net/2013/02/02/cta-releases-white-paper-on-self-immolations-in-tibet-2/ 

Ensapa

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I feel the CTA is behind this  in advising the Dalai Lama not to ask the immolations to stop. Though the Dalai Lama said motivation is the determining factor, but are all the 111 people who immolated have pure altruistic view and intention, the monks who have immolated perhaps through their training/discipline they have generated much more pure motivation but what about those lay people, unenlightened ones immolation is surely going to just send them to the lower realms.

Also CTA have other people to bleed and die for them, hence why do any work when people are sacrificing their bodies to do the work they must do.

The article below is saying CTA is asking people to stop immolation but on phayul.com there is a video on the immolation, so if we do not want the immolation to go on why put up a video on it, this is very contradictory like all CTA policies. CTA says it wants freedom/ democracy but they oppress Dorje Shugden people some of whom are their own kin.  Well CTA please learn up about cause and effect, the effects resembles the causes. You want freedom you have to start giving it to Dorje Shudgen practitioners!

http://tibet.net/2013/02/02/cta-releases-white-paper-on-self-immolations-in-tibet-2/


If you have seen many of the self immolation videos or pictures, it would be quite clear that these people did not really die for Tibet and they are in obvious pain, and also that they were not prepared for what they are doing. Their will and intention to "die" for Tibet isnt as strong because the motivation behind it is something else and not really for the freedom of Tibet even though they are chanting that. It is very different from the Vietnamese monk who self immolated in 1965 as he was calm and steady when the flames engulfed him because he has already entered deep meditation and his motivation was pure and real. In fact, some self immolation survivors actually said they regretted self immolating and the pain they bring to their families is amazing. So I dont buy the explanation that they're doing it for Tibet's independence

vajrastorm

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A Tibetan Spiritual leader has spoken up against  the  one hundred self-immolations that have taken place in Tibet in recent times. Though he is not of the 'camp' of HH Dalai Lama or the CTA, the claimant of the title of the 17th Karmapa ,Trinley Thaye Dorje, has spoken up strongly against these self-immolations, which involved many monks, saying they were against the Buddhadharma.

In his speech, he condemns this as being motivated by the cause of Tibet's political freedom and independence from China.

The important point is that the self-immolations are politically, and not spiritually motivated, and they involved loss of precious lives that could have been used to preserve and spread the Dharma. It's on the same wave-length of thought as the needless cruel treatment of Shugden practitioners and the ban of  a practice that would have aided in the spread of the Dharma of Je Tsongkapa. 

Ensapa

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A Tibetan Spiritual leader has spoken up against  the  one hundred self-immolations that have taken place in Tibet in recent times. Though he is not of the 'camp' of HH Dalai Lama or the CTA, the claimant of the title of the 17th Karmapa ,Trinley Thaye Dorje, has spoken up strongly against these self-immolations, which involved many monks, saying they were against the Buddhadharma.

In his speech, he condemns this as being motivated by the cause of Tibet's political freedom and independence from China.

The important point is that the self-immolations are politically, and not spiritually motivated, and they involved loss of precious lives that could have been used to preserve and spread the Dharma. It's on the same wave-length of thought as the needless cruel treatment of Shugden practitioners and the ban of  a practice that would have aided in the spread of the Dharma of Je Tsongkapa.

in other words, the CTA has always been politically motivated in their intent. Monks are not allowed to harm all beings, not even themselves and there is a specific rule in the vinaya that monks are not allowed to commit suicide, but yet these monks are burning themselves up for a worldly cause!!! How horrible in more ways than one! They break their monk vows for something so trivial and so political. A large percentage of the self immolators are monks, and nobody speaks up against this except for the Karmapa...more high lamas should speak up against this as it is a blatant disregard for the Vinaya.

thor

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How ironic.

While the Dalai Lama was the spiritual and political head of Tibet, he spoke out against China, for Tibetan freedom, Tibetan autonomy, against Dorje Shugden, and so forth. When the Dalai Lama stepped down from power, he continued to speak out against the above.

So why doenst he speak up to prevent further self immolations?

The Dalai Lama lost Tibet to China. Why? Because he was in power when the Chinese invaded Tibet. Because he failed to get any semblance of independence or even autonomy back for Tibet, despite years of trying and blaming it on Shugden. It has been decades of rhetoric from the Dalai Lama against China, and you can guess what kind of fervor this stirs up within the Tibetan youth.

So, as the person who is responsible for Tibet's loss, and as the person who has maintained anti-China sentiment among the Tibetan community, you would think that the Dalai Lama would feel responsible for these self immolations and do something to stop it? Or, assuming that the Dalai Lama is indisposed to make such a statement, surely the CTA cares enough to put a stop to such behaviour? Or are they too busy poking their noses into another Shugden monastery to pay attention to current affairs and real issues where lives are at stake, as opposed to another witch hunt?

In any case, this self immolation situation has dragged on too long, and i for one am very glad that  the Karmapa  has taken it upon himself to do something about it. I hope there is some effect,  and the years of the Dalai Lama bringing the Karmapa along with him has rubbed off some influence. I also hope that other leaders of Tibetan Buddhism will follow the Karmapa's example  and urge the Tibetan populace not to risk their lives for Tibetan freedom, which clearly is no closer than before all these immolations started happening.

Lastly, I hope the Dalai Lama will step forward to right this incorrect view  that the Tibetan youth have, that immolating themselves will bring some benefit to their country.

Ensapa

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How ironic.

While the Dalai Lama was the spiritual and political head of Tibet, he spoke out against China, for Tibetan freedom, Tibetan autonomy, against Dorje Shugden, and so forth. When the Dalai Lama stepped down from power, he continued to speak out against the above.

So why doenst he speak up to prevent further self immolations?

The Dalai Lama lost Tibet to China. Why? Because he was in power when the Chinese invaded Tibet. Because he failed to get any semblance of independence or even autonomy back for Tibet, despite years of trying and blaming it on Shugden. It has been decades of rhetoric from the Dalai Lama against China, and you can guess what kind of fervor this stirs up within the Tibetan youth.

So, as the person who is responsible for Tibet's loss, and as the person who has maintained anti-China sentiment among the Tibetan community, you would think that the Dalai Lama would feel responsible for these self immolations and do something to stop it? Or, assuming that the Dalai Lama is indisposed to make such a statement, surely the CTA cares enough to put a stop to such behaviour? Or are they too busy poking their noses into another Shugden monastery to pay attention to current affairs and real issues where lives are at stake, as opposed to another witch hunt?

In any case, this self immolation situation has dragged on too long, and i for one am very glad that  the Karmapa  has taken it upon himself to do something about it. I hope there is some effect,  and the years of the Dalai Lama bringing the Karmapa along with him has rubbed off some influence. I also hope that other leaders of Tibetan Buddhism will follow the Karmapa's example  and urge the Tibetan populace not to risk their lives for Tibetan freedom, which clearly is no closer than before all these immolations started happening.

Lastly, I hope the Dalai Lama will step forward to right this incorrect view  that the Tibetan youth have, that immolating themselves will bring some benefit to their country.

There will be positive effects for the Karmapa to speak up against the self immolations, and the main one would be that he will gain the respect of the world and also of the governments all over. It is possible that when the Dalai Lama passes away, one of the Karmapas will take over, and I am guessing the Karmapa that resembles the previous one the most in thought and deed will take over while the other will be recognized as another tulku or something. CTA and the Dalai Lama keeping quiet about the self immolations will erode the respect that other governments or countries have for them over time. It's not difficult for anyone to put themselves into China's shoes, and when the countries do, they will see why China is so afraid/unhappy about the Dalai Lama and CTA, and their respect for them will decrease.