Author Topic: Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?  (Read 10349 times)

Big Uncle

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1995
Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
« on: July 11, 2012, 03:11:13 PM »
Here's an interesting perspective of why Dorje Shugden was banned by the Dalai Lama. You may or may not agree with some of the points but let's keep an open mind and let's explore the reasonings that the author has come up with on this matter. For matter of convenience, I have highlighted some crucial points in this article.

( http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-faith-column/2008/08/dorje-shugden-dalai-lama-ban )

Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
Meindert Gorter explores the history and reasons behind the Dalai Lama's ban on the deity Dorje Shug
BY MEINDERT GORTER PUBLISHED 28 AUGUST 2008 12:30
       
The Dalai Lama has given several reasons to explain the excommunication of the protector, Dorje Shugden, back in 1996. However what he has actually seemed to be doing is adapting the gravity of the ban to match the level of protest against it within the Tibetan community. In some interviews he has even denied having banned the deity; he only wanted to give a warning, people can make their own decision.

The deity is accused of fundamentalism because he obstructs the mixing of the four main schools of Buddhism, which is supported by the Dalai Lama and his teachers. The Dalai Lama said the thought of Dorje Shugden bothered him while taking initiations from one of these, the Nyingma lineage.

We, who stubbornly go on with the deity-practise, don’t see any reason whatsoever to mix the lineages. Each lineage has its own unique transmission; if mixed we think it's like mixing an apple pie with a banana split: you will end up with an undefined mess. There is a lot of mutual respect between the lineages so why give them up?

Knowing the Dalai Lama’s status and the adoration Tibetans feel for him, his words caused turmoil in Tibetan society. Solely due to social pressure, people decided to abandon the practice of worshipping Dorje Shugden, choosing to live by the lines set out by the Dalai Lama.

After all, continuation of this practise was bad for the Dalai’s health and damaging the Tibetan cause, and who wants responsibility for that? Serious Dorje Shugden practitioners however felt it impossible to choose between the two. "The Dalai Lama wants me to choose between my father and my mother," said some when asked why they would not stop. Others, more philosophically trained monks and teachers, found the ban to be anti-Buddhistic and for that reason alone would not stop.

Gradually the pressure on Dorje Shugden practitioners got worse. Fanatical Dalai Lama followers began to demolish statues of the deity, the existing social solidarity amongst Tibetans was gone. Even in Tibet itself, where restoration of temples is in full swing and people enjoy new religious freedom, this ban created suspicion. Dorje Shugden worshippers were accused of being part of the ‘Dorje Shugden sect’ and became outcasts. The Dorje Shugden Society was founded, an ad-hoc group of people working together to oppose the ban - not to save the enlightened deity from harm but to help thousands of people from becoming outcasts.

But numerous appeals and worldwide protests have not helped. The Dalai Lama has not responded and refuses all contact. If you think the Dalai Lama is only in the business of provoking positive sentiments, as most Westeners believe, you have to firmly close your eyes to imagine this less romantic reality.

During speeches in India in January 2008, he has enforced the ban more strictly then ever before, claiming that his own religious freedom is obstructed by Dorje Shugden.

The last years brought us forced signature campaigns, in which monks promised to stop propitiating Dorje Shugden in return for obtaining travel documents from the exiled government or to be admitted into monasteries. Last January monks were engaged in weird actions such as swearing in a loud voice to denounce the deity. All contact with those monks that have not followed the ban is forbidden. This implements a de-facto apartheid with signs forbidding monks from entering classrooms, hospitals and shops. They even have to study and dine separately.

However, in spite of all this, there exists some solidarity with the Nyingma monks helping the Dorje Shugden monks to survive within this hostile monastic environment.

dsiluvu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1272
Re: Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2012, 04:29:57 AM »
Here's an interesting perspective of why Dorje Shugden was banned by the Dalai Lama. You may or may not agree with some of the points but let's keep an open mind and let's explore the reasonings that the author has come up with on this matter. For matter of convenience, I have highlighted some crucial points in this article.

( http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-faith-column/2008/08/dorje-shugden-dalai-lama-ban )

Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
Meindert Gorter explores the history and reasons behind the Dalai Lama's ban on the deity Dorje Shug
BY MEINDERT GORTER PUBLISHED 28 AUGUST 2008 12:30
       
The Dalai Lama has given several reasons to explain the excommunication of the protector, Dorje Shugden, back in 1996. However what he has actually seemed to be doing is adapting the gravity of the ban to match the level of protest against it within the Tibetan community. In some interviews he has even denied having banned the deity; he only wanted to give a warning, people can make their own decision.

If that is TRUE then why did HE INSTRUCT the monasteries like Gaden to kick out those who choose to practice... if it is a freedom of personal choice then why were there a pick a yellow stick and why were lay practitioners not even allowed to send their children to schools?

The deity is accused of fundamentalism because he obstructs the mixing of the four main schools of Buddhism, which is supported by the Dalai Lama and his teachers. The Dalai Lama said the thought of Dorje Shugden bothered him while taking initiations from one of these, the Nyingma lineage.

This sounds like it is a personal opinion. Why impose your opinion and thoughts on to others. You choose to take Nyingma initiations but not everyone else. So why do others have to abide by this? Btw Lama Tsongkhapa also studied the teachings from all 3 schools, combined the best and taught... Dorje Shugden is the protector of Lama Tsongkhapa's pure teachings hence isn't logical to say He is also protector of all schools of thought in this sense- since when was there ever a problem?

We, who stubbornly go on with the deity-practise, don’t see any reason whatsoever to mix the lineages. Each lineage has its own unique transmission; if mixed we think it's like mixing an apple pie with a banana split: you will end up with an undefined mess. There is a lot of mutual respect between the lineages so why give them up?

Knowing the Dalai Lama’s status and the adoration Tibetans feel for him, his words caused turmoil in Tibetan society. Solely due to social pressure, people decided to abandon the practice of worshipping Dorje Shugden, choosing to live by the lines set out by the Dalai Lama.

After all, continuation of this practise was bad for the Dalai’s health and damaging the Tibetan cause, and who wants responsibility for that? Serious Dorje Shugden practitioners however felt it impossible to choose between the two. "The Dalai Lama wants me to choose between my father and my mother," said some when asked why they would not stop. Others, more philosophically trained monks and teachers, found the ban to be anti-Buddhistic and for that reason alone would not stop.

This is what we call blind faith. How can HHDL known to be a living Buddha Chenrezig be harmed by any evil spirit and if so why then do we bother to follow Buddhism.

Gradually the pressure on Dorje Shugden practitioners got worse. Fanatical Dalai Lama followers began to demolish statues of the deity, the existing social solidarity amongst Tibetans was gone. Even in Tibet itself, where restoration of temples is in full swing and people enjoy new religious freedom, this ban created suspicion. Dorje Shugden worshippers were accused of being part of the ‘Dorje Shugden sect’ and became outcasts. The Dorje Shugden Society was founded, an ad-hoc group of people working together to oppose the ban - not to save the enlightened deity from harm but to help thousands of people from becoming outcasts.

This is perhaps the saddest because Buddhism is about compassion so we thought, not about what initiations you got and which Lama/Center/Monastery you are from. At the end of the you are still human and you have the right to pray to whomever you wish, it is no one's but your prerogative and definitely this is out right unethical and a huge discrimination in a society steep in Buddhist beliefs and government that calls themselves democratic? Isn't Buddhist tantra about of loving all sentient beings. Isn't Shugdenpas sentient beings too? What you believe should never affect your livelihood especially one imposed by your own government.


But numerous appeals and worldwide protests have not helped. The Dalai Lama has not responded and refuses all contact. If you think the Dalai Lama is only in the business of provoking positive sentiments, as most Westeners believe, you have to firmly close your eyes to imagine this less romantic reality.

During speeches in India in January 2008, he has enforced the ban more strictly then ever before, claiming that his own religious freedom is obstructed by Dorje Shugden.

The last years brought us forced signature campaigns, in which monks promised to stop propitiating Dorje Shugden in return for obtaining travel documents from the exiled government or to be admitted into monasteries. Last January monks were engaged in weird actions such as swearing in a loud voice to denounce the deity. All contact with those monks that have not followed the ban is forbidden. This implements a de-facto apartheid with signs forbidding monks from entering classrooms, hospitals and shops. They even have to study and dine separately.

This is definitely not a FREEDOM OF CHOICE... more like FORCE to me!

However, in spite of all this, there exists some solidarity with the Nyingma monks helping the Dorje Shugden monks to survive within this hostile monastic environment.


Can you believe this? Yes Nyingmas are helping Dorje Shugden practitioners while their own Gelugpas shun them! What is going on - the picture is certainly not right.

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2012, 07:44:13 AM »
Here's an interesting perspective of why Dorje Shugden was banned by the Dalai Lama. You may or may not agree with some of the points but let's keep an open mind and let's explore the reasonings that the author has come up with on this matter. For matter of convenience, I have highlighted some crucial points in this article.

( http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-faith-column/2008/08/dorje-shugden-dalai-lama-ban )

Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
Meindert Gorter explores the history and reasons behind the Dalai Lama's ban on the deity Dorje Shug
BY MEINDERT GORTER PUBLISHED 28 AUGUST 2008 12:30
       
The Dalai Lama has given several reasons to explain the excommunication of the protector, Dorje Shugden, back in 1996. However what he has actually seemed to be doing is adapting the gravity of the ban to match the level of protest against it within the Tibetan community. In some interviews he has even denied having banned the deity; he only wanted to give a warning, people can make their own decision.
Umm...warning? So why again were Dorje Shugden practitioners expelled from monasteries and their pictures with their details posted all over town announcing that they are Dorje Shugden practitioners so that people can ostracize them? That sounds more like an edict rather than a warning. And if its warning, why are Dalai Lama followers around the world talking smack about Dorje Shugden?
The deity is accused of fundamentalism because he obstructs the mixing of the four main schools of Buddhism, which is supported by the Dalai Lama and his teachers. The Dalai Lama said the thought of Dorje Shugden bothered him while taking initiations from one of these, the Nyingma lineage.
Again, the exact account of this cannot be provided in this article, meaning that even the author feels its not substancial enough. But know this --  there is still no proof till this day that he is sectarian except for the yellow books' account, and even that is possibly due to misinterpretation as it uses a language and style that is far from logical, not like any Gelug lama would say.

We, who stubbornly go on with the deity-practise, don’t see any reason whatsoever to mix the lineages. Each lineage has its own unique transmission; if mixed we think it's like mixing an apple pie with a banana split: you will end up with an undefined mess. There is a lot of mutual respect between the lineages so why give them up?
We do respect other traditions, so we are not sectarian. We just dont see the need to do their practices alongside with ours.
Knowing the Dalai Lama’s status and the adoration Tibetans feel for him, his words caused turmoil in Tibetan society. Solely due to social pressure, people decided to abandon the practice of worshipping Dorje Shugden, choosing to live by the lines set out by the Dalai Lama.

After all, continuation of this practise was bad for the Dalai’s health and damaging the Tibetan cause, and who wants responsibility for that? Serious Dorje Shugden practitioners however felt it impossible to choose between the two. "The Dalai Lama wants me to choose between my father and my mother," said some when asked why they would not stop. Others, more philosophically trained monks and teachers, found the ban to be anti-Buddhistic and for that reason alone would not stop.
Dorje Shugden's practice is still as big as always, but i dont see HHDL having any serious health problems. Logic please?

Gradually the pressure on Dorje Shugden practitioners got worse. Fanatical Dalai Lama followers began to demolish statues of the deity, the existing social solidarity amongst Tibetans was gone. Even in Tibet itself, where restoration of temples is in full swing and people enjoy new religious freedom, this ban created suspicion. Dorje Shugden worshippers were accused of being part of the ‘Dorje Shugden sect’ and became outcasts. The Dorje Shugden Society was founded, an ad-hoc group of people working together to oppose the ban - not to save the enlightened deity from harm but to help thousands of people from becoming outcasts.

But numerous appeals and worldwide protests have not helped. The Dalai Lama has not responded and refuses all contact. If you think the Dalai Lama is only in the business of provoking positive sentiments, as most Westeners believe, you have to firmly close your eyes to imagine this less romantic reality.
You got that right. Welcome to reality!
During speeches in India in January 2008, he has enforced the ban more strictly then ever before, claiming that his own religious freedom is obstructed by Dorje Shugden.

The last years brought us forced signature campaigns, in which monks promised to stop propitiating Dorje Shugden in return for obtaining travel documents from the exiled government or to be admitted into monasteries. Last January monks were engaged in weird actions such as swearing in a loud voice to denounce the deity. All contact with those monks that have not followed the ban is forbidden. This implements a de-facto apartheid with signs forbidding monks from entering classrooms, hospitals and shops. They even have to study and dine separately.
Monks are not allowed to swear. They break their monk vows if they do. Is this HHDL's way of testing who will bow down to pressure and give up when things get tough?
However, in spite of all this, there exists some solidarity with the Nyingma monks helping the Dorje Shugden monks to survive within this hostile monastic environment.


This is a very interesting and neutral article that focuses on the effects of the ban, rather than all the "Dorje Shugden is a ghost" thing. After all, the effects are as important as the actual ban, and people should open their eyes and see that the ban is most unbuddhistic indeed, even if it was implemented by the Dalai Lama and question, instead of keeping quiet and towing in line.

vajratruth

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 706
Re: Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2012, 03:29:27 PM »
For the longest time I have been seeking to understand why the Dalai Lama suddenly banned a practice that dates back some 300 years and in addition, a practice that the Dalai Lama himself undertook for over 20 years.

The Dalai Lama gave no logical reasons other than that Dorje Shugden “suddenly” turned out to be an evil spirit after all. To date, no one can find any explanation based on religious logic, as to how a Wisdom Buddha suddenly became an evil spirit. In reality there isn’t any logical reason at all.

But the Dalai Lama is more than just a monk. He is also a politician and when we examine the Shugden affair from a political perspective, we see clearly the reasons behind the Dalai Lama’s ban of the Protector.

In the years after the Chinese invasion in 1959, the Dalai Lama sought to unify all of Tibet under his authority. Undoubtedly there was a need for Tibet to appear strong and united in the face of Chinese oppression.  However, the exile of Tibetans from their homeland also presented the Dalai Lama with an unprecedented opportunity to exert supreme power over the entire Tibetan community and become the absolute political and religious authority over the entire Tibetan community, something that none of his predecessors ever had.
Public perception of the Dalai Lama as Tibet’s religious authority never had any historic truth as each of the 4 major lineages of Tibetan Buddhism had their own leader.

The Dalai Lama then conceived the idea of breaking down the barriers that separate the various Buddhist schools and to create one single Tibetan Buddhism under his rule. The Dalai Lama himself pursued this course and breaking with tradition, the Dalai Lama sought transmissions from different schools.

The problem the Dalai Lama faced is that traditional Gelugpa teachers do not approve of mixing their lineage teachings and rituals with that of other lineages. And in failing to convince the Gelugpa Masters including the Dalai Lama’s own teacher HH Trijang Rinpoche, he found an opposition to his politico-religious ambition of a one Tibetan Buddhism under his authority. The Gelugpa Masters were not against a unified Tibet but did not take politics as a good enough reason to break with the traditions of their lineage that had been preserved since the time of Je Tsongkhapa.  Because these Gelugpa Masters were very highly regarded and important to Tibetan society, the Dalai Lama had to find a way to end the resistance to his consolidation of supreme power.

To do that, the Dalai Lama chose to exterminate the practice of the special protector of the teachings of the Gelugpa lineage, Dorje Shugden.  Here, at this point it is important to realize that of all the deities, worldly protections, enlightened protectors and spirits in Tibetan Buddhism, the Dalai Lama picked on THE protector of the Gelugpa lineage.

There was never a real or true religious basis for imposing the ban on Dorje Shugden who has been recognized as an emanation of Manjushri for over 300 years. The only reason behind the ban was and remains the Dalai Lama’s political ambition.

When you look at the timing of the ban you begin to see the politics behind it.  The Dalai Lama started speaking against Dorje Shugden in the 1970s when it became clear that the Gelugpa Masters were not going to co-operate with the Dalai Lama’s plans of unifying all the Buddhist sects. In 1988, via the Strasbourg Proposal, the Dalai Lama had all but unilaterally given up on the idea of an independent Tibet, deciding instead to accept autonomous rule. In 1996, the Dalai Lama officially banned the practice as a means to distract Tibetans from the resurgence in the call for Tibetan Independence in 1995 bearing in mind that he gave up on independence without consulting anyone else. In 2008, the Dalai Lama went on a full-scale attack on Dorje Shugden practitioners knowing full well that events surrounding the Beijing Olympics would distract and mask his mistake in giving up the Tibet Cause.

WisdomBeing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2096
    • Add me to your facebook!
Re: Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2012, 03:40:26 PM »
Dear Vajratruth

Your hypothesis is interesting but I beg to differ. I do not believe that HH the Dalai Lama imposed the ban purely for political reasons. If he did so, he would not be the emanation of Chenrezig which I believe him to be.

Yes, I do believe that he IS a politician and an astute one at that. However, it does not mean that he would institute a ban on a religious practice which would definitely result in the very real suffering of a segment of the Tibetan population who he is representing on a spiritual level.

From the evidence, I am still inclined to support the stance that the Dalai Lama imposed the ban so that the practice would flourish. After all, this very article in New Statesman would never have been published if not for the ban. The fact that the Dalai Lama would allow his own reputation to be at risk due to the ban shows his compassionate nature.

There is no logical basis for the ban, which is why the Dalai Lama has refused all invitations for a public debate/discussion on the ban.

I do believe that the time for the end of the ban is nearing. As has been predicted, Dorje Shugden will replace Nechung to become the definitive protector of Tibetan Buddhism in future. It is simply a matter of time.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

beggar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 861
Re: Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2012, 04:18:06 PM »
Well, there's a glimmer of light in every dark situation. I found this the most heartening part of the article, so let's focus on the good stuff:

However, in spite of all this, there exists some solidarity with the Nyingma monks helping the Dorje Shugden monks to survive within this hostile monastic environment.


I know this to be true and there have been several discussions before on the forum about nyingma Lamas' support of Dorje Shugden practitioners, such as Penor Rinpoche. See discussions here:
- www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=666
- http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1896.msg26706#msg26706

Historically, there are also accounts in high lamas' writings and biographies of the mutual support and respect between the sects, with practitioners from other sects even attending Shugden lama teachings and initiations. Trijang Rinpoche's autobiography mentions this clearly, for example.

Also, Choyang Dulzin Kuten, one of the the most respected oracles of Tibet, spoke about the close and respectful relationship enjoyed between himself and other sects:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=578

He states, for example, "But Phagri itself has many traditions and Dharmapala Dorje Shugden is protector to all families there, irrespective of their traditions."

And:

"I stayed at Buxa for ten years at the request of the officials of His Holiness and served as an oracle. Whenever there was a major decision to be made I was consulted, irrespective of any tradition posing the questions."

Not forgetting too that the Sakyas practised Shugden for many hundreds of years too - Shugden was actually a more prominent practice there before being adopted by the Gelugps.

So whatever is said about the practice being sectarian is ridiculous. It was never an issue and there were never any problems between sects until the ban was announced, after which it suddenly became something sectarian. Like they say, all issues with religion have never been because of religion but the very people trying to practice and speak on behalf of it.

vajratruth

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 706
Re: Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2012, 04:58:47 PM »


The fact that the Dalai Lama would allow his own reputation to be at risk due to the ban shows his compassionate nature.

There is no logical basis for the ban, which is why the Dalai Lama has refused all invitations for a public debate/discussion on the ban.



Dear WB, I do hope you are right. The ban has created such as fracture within the Buddhist community and created so much sufferings. Many old monks have gone to their graves being torn between their devotion to their Guru who gave them the practice and their allegiance to the Dalai Lama whom they believe to be Chenrezig.

My absolute trust in Buddhism in based on the fact that every bit of the Buddha's teachings has sound reasoning and can be supported by logic. In Buddhism we are not asked to simply have faith where there is an absence of logical explanation but then again, I admit that I probably do not have the attainment to understand a Buddha's reason for doing certain things.

My simple mind's wish is that the Dalai Lama would use his present status as the darling of the world to introduce Dorje Shugden and tell the world of the tremendous benefits of the practice. To my recollection, never in history has a Buddhist monk commanded such significant attention and respect of the world. I read that up to ten thousand people attend the Dalai Lama's teachings and initiations. Imagine if these events were used to teach people the practice of the Protector King.

Still, it is true that the nett effect of the ban has been the widespread name of Dorje Shugden.

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2012, 09:12:12 AM »
For the longest time I have been seeking to understand why the Dalai Lama suddenly banned a practice that dates back some 300 years and in addition, a practice that the Dalai Lama himself undertook for over 20 years.
you're not the only one. I have been wondering about this point as well because there are just too me odd things that surround the ban like how Trijang Rinpoche predicted it and how HHDL seems to be enacting based on a plan...

The Dalai Lama gave no logical reasons other than that Dorje Shugden “suddenly” turned out to be an evil spirit after all. To date, no one can find any explanation based on religious logic, as to how a Wisdom Buddha suddenly became an evil spirit. In reality there isn’t any logical reason at all.
The reasonings given behind the ban is not substancial and that can be easily debunked as there are a lot of hard historical evidence that proves otherwise, and proves that the reasonings given by the Dalai Lama are but misunderstandings and misinterpretations. But to the individual who does not like to do research, they will just accept it blindly...

But the Dalai Lama is more than just a monk. He is also a politician and when we examine the Shugden affair from a political perspective, we see clearly the reasons behind the Dalai Lama’s ban of the Protector.
Many people tend to forget about that aspect of the Dalai Lama, that he is also the political leader of the Tibetans. He has to do what is necessary for Tibet and nontibetans need not follow. But they do anyways...I wonder why

In the years after the Chinese invasion in 1959, the Dalai Lama sought to unify all of Tibet under his authority. Undoubtedly there was a need for Tibet to appear strong and united in the face of Chinese oppression.  However, the exile of Tibetans from their homeland also presented the Dalai Lama with an unprecedented opportunity to exert supreme power over the entire Tibetan community and become the absolute political and religious authority over the entire Tibetan community, something that none of his predecessors ever had.
Public perception of the Dalai Lama as Tibet’s religious authority never had any historic truth as each of the 4 major lineages of Tibetan Buddhism had their own leader.
All the other 3 traditions have one thing in common: They do not like Gelug, but due to them being Buddhist, they cannot say it too overtly, so the Dalai Lama gave them a medium to express their unhappiness: Dorje Shugden. In reality, Dorje Shugden became the glue that stuck the 3 traditions together?

The Dalai Lama then conceived the idea of breaking down the barriers that separate the various Buddhist schools and to create one single Tibetan Buddhism under his rule. The Dalai Lama himself pursued this course and breaking with tradition, the Dalai Lama sought transmissions from different schools.
It's really to show that the Dalai Lama cares about them as these schools were somewhat insecure about their position in Tibet after Gelug became the dominant school, that the Dalai Lama does not want to stamp them out.

The problem the Dalai Lama faced is that traditional Gelugpa teachers do not approve of mixing their lineage teachings and rituals with that of other lineages. And in failing to convince the Gelugpa Masters including the Dalai Lama’s own teacher HH Trijang Rinpoche, he found an opposition to his politico-religious ambition of a one Tibetan Buddhism under his authority. The Gelugpa Masters were not against a unified Tibet but did not take politics as a good enough reason to break with the traditions of their lineage that had been preserved since the time of Je Tsongkhapa.  Because these Gelugpa Masters were very highly regarded and important to Tibetan society, the Dalai Lama had to find a way to end the resistance to his consolidation of supreme power.
From one viewpoint, that is true. Another viewpoint is that any Lama in the Dalai Lama's position is allowed to do that. But then again, HHDL already set a bad example to novice practitioners, telling them its okay to center hop and to traverse lineages even if they have not achieved anything. That is already a bad example to this current generation of practitioners, who obviously think it is okay to float around and in the end, they do not get any attainments at all.

To do that, the Dalai Lama chose to exterminate the practice of the special protector of the teachings of the Gelugpa lineage, Dorje Shugden.  Here, at this point it is important to realize that of all the deities, worldly protections, enlightened protectors and spirits in Tibetan Buddhism, the Dalai Lama picked on THE protector of the Gelugpa lineage.
It's more like he is speaking out and sparking something, but it kinda only stops there. Think about it: If the stories in the yellow book are "true", shouldnt something bad happen to Dalai Lama by now? If not, does it not show us that there is obviously something wrong with the statements presented in the book?

There was never a real or true religious basis for imposing the ban on Dorje Shugden who has been recognized as an emanation of Manjushri for over 300 years. The only reason behind the ban was and remains the Dalai Lama’s political ambition.
But well, HHDL has to do what he has to do to unite the Tibetans. It is his duty and responsibility, although there are many collateral damages involved...

When you look at the timing of the ban you begin to see the politics behind it.  The Dalai Lama started speaking against Dorje Shugden in the 1970s when it became clear that the Gelugpa Masters were not going to co-operate with the Dalai Lama’s plans of unifying all the Buddhist sects. In 1988, via the Strasbourg Proposal, the Dalai Lama had all but unilaterally given up on the idea of an independent Tibet, deciding instead to accept autonomous rule. In 1996, the Dalai Lama officially banned the practice as a means to distract Tibetans from the resurgence in the call for Tibetan Independence in 1995 bearing in mind that he gave up on independence without consulting anyone else. In 2008, the Dalai Lama went on a full-scale attack on Dorje Shugden practitioners knowing full well that events surrounding the Beijing Olympics would distract and mask his mistake in giving up the Tibet Cause.
You do make sense because the Tibetans were getting more and more restless with the Tibet issue and they are blaming the Dalai lama for not doing enough to bring their independence. Sure enough, they actually quieted down after the ban was enforced.

Your observation is actually quite poignant and extensive. Perhaps, this is the purpose for the ban, to prevent the Tibetans from bombing China. The Tibetans pride themselves with being warlike and aggressive (the laity)  which is why HHDL has been severely criticized by many Tibetans for not doing enough for the cause of Tibet. If we see it from this perspective, it does make a lot of sense, considering the observable effects.

Vajraprotector

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 610
Re: Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2012, 09:24:20 PM »
His Holiness has recently, again, talk about Dorje Shugden on the second day of the four day teachings in Leh, Ladakh. Now Panchen Lama is in the picture, and Gaden Jangtse monastery as well.  Oh yes, the Chinese spies still applies ;)

Well, at least now His Holiness did not talk about the ban, but just to not take vows or empowerments from His Holiness.


The 102th Gaden Tripa greets His Holiness the Dalai Lama at the teaching pavilion at Shewatsel Grounds in Leh on the last day of the four day teachings. The Tibetan spiritual leader gave teachings on Tsongkhapa's The Three Principal Paths (Tib: lamtso namsum) and Atisha's Lamp for the Path to Enlightenment (Tib: jangchup lamdron) and also confer an Avalokiteshvera Initiation (Tib: thukje chenpo jigten wangchuk wang)



Second Day of His Holiness’s Teachings in Leh
August 5th 2012

Leh, Ladakh, J&K, India, 5 August 2012 - His Holiness arrived at the teaching ground early for the second day of teachings today, walking from the Shiwatsel Phodrang to the new teaching pavilion. He said he would begin the explanation of the texts and that yesterday’s session had been more of an introductory talk. He also explained that tomorrow he would conduct the ceremonies for giving the lay-person’s precepts, generating the aspiration to enlightenment and the Bodhisattva vows, as well as an Avalokiteshvara empowerment.
 
Because the Bodhisattva vows and the empowerment involve creating a bond with the lama, he said he needed to talk, as he has done before, about the malevolent spirit Dolgyal (also known as Shugden). His Holiness said that anyone who still places their trust in Dolgyal would be better not to make a bond with him. He admitted that both he and the Ganden Tri Rinpoche, Rizong Rinpoche, sitting to his right on the platform, used to propitiate Dolgyal, but that both of them had stopped after his investigations had revealed that it was improper to do so.

“I found that Dolgyal appeared during the time of the Fifth Dalai Lama who knew who he was. He wrote an invocation to the Dharma Protectors of Tibet instructing them not to aid Dolgyal. He also wrote that Dolgyal had arisen as a result of distorted prayers and that his nature was malevolent, harming the Dharma and sentient beings.

“Apparently the 10th Panchen Lama, Lobsang Trinley Lhündrub, had propitiated this spirit, but shortly before he passed away in 1989, he found a charter written by the 8th Panchen, Tenpai Wangchuk, forbidding the monks of Tashi Lhunpo from doing this practice. He then published a similar notice from Beijing prohibiting its practice. The 13th Dalai Lama also discouraged the practice. I took up the practice, but once I discovered the faults of doing so I stopped. Of my two tutors, Ling Rinpoche had nothing to do with Dolgyal, but Trijang Rinpoche followed the practice. When I stopped, it was with the full knowledge of both my tutors.

Ganden Jangtse monastery faced difficulties as a result of turning to Dolgyal and overlooking Palden Lhamo. Many monks in the great monasteries have stopped propitiating Dolgyal, but some kept it up and formed a society, which is opposed to me and now receives support from the Chinese Communist authorities.”

His Holiness went on to say that anyone who has kept up the practice of Dolgyal out of ignorance should not have any fear about giving it up if they heed his advice. On the other hand, he said, whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you, all His Holiness asks is that such persons do not take vows or empowerments from him.


Turning to the Lamp for the Path to Enlightenment His Holiness said that the goal is enlightenment and it is called a lamp because it dispels the darkness of misunderstanding. Repeating the Buddha’s advice to his students to examine his teachings and to accept them only after proper analysis rather than out of blind faith, His Holiness mentioned how the description of the universe in the scriptures differs from the modern observable scientific view. He said that as a Buddhist he has firm conviction in the teachings of the two truths and the four noble truths and regards Buddhist knowledge as one of the world’s treasures, but he no longer accepts the description of the universe in the Abhidharmakosha. He mentioned meeting a group of monks and scholars from Korea and asking them what they thought. When they replied that as Buddhists they felt they had to accept the traditional account, he told them that he didn’t think the Buddha appeared in the world to give cosmic measurements, but to show the way to liberation from cyclic existence.

He recalled a visit to Bhandara Tibetan Settlement in Central India and a small girl making a presentation about the sun and moon and how a solar eclipse takes place. She said to him proudly, “We Tibetans say that when an eclipse takes place Rahu has eaten the sun, but it’s not true!” and His Holiness was impressed. In a similar vein, he remembered watching a lunar eclipse when he was also a child and seeing how the moon seemed to be shivering, he felt sorry for it. Now, he said, he knows there was no need for his pity.

Returning to the text, and the line ‘Homage to the Victorious Ones of the three times’ His Holiness reminded his listeners that a Buddhist is one who takes refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha and on that basis proceeds to practise the Dharma. It is not enough to say, ‘I’m a Buddhist because my parents say so.’ When we understand that to become a Buddha, one who has overcome all faults and ripened all qualities, is feasible, we take refuge in the Dharma and by following the true path achieve true cessation.

The reference to the Lamp of the Path having been written at the urging of King Jangchub Wo prompted His Holiness to remark that during the time of the great Tibetan Emperors, Songtsen Gampo, Trisong Deutsen and Ralpachan, the Three Provinces of Tibet were united. In His Holiness’s village near Kumbum, they still used words of Central Tibetan origin that had been brought by soldiers posted there by the Tibetan government when the country was united. Likewise an American scholar researching Tibetan law told him that legal terms used throughout Tibet were the same, again illustrating how the Three Provinces were united.
 
In due course the country became fragmented and a descendant of the royal line, Jangchub Wo, who ruled in Western Tibet, invited Atisha to Tibet, where he composed this text at the King’s request. The text is fundamental to the Tibetan tradition because the Kadampas, Kagyupas, Sakyapas and Nyingmapas all have their own texts that draw upon it. Comparing the style of Indian books to those written in Tibet, His Holiness pointed out that Indian masters contending with many other points of view tended to be more disputatious. This is a style His Holiness also favours. He likes to set what he is teaching in contrast to other points of view. However, this is not to say he favours criticism for its own sake, he is convinced we should respect others points of view while maintaining faith in our own.

Having described persons of three capacities in a spiritual context, the small who aspire to higher rebirth, the medium who aspire to liberation and the great who aspire to enlightenment for all beings, the Lamp counsels us to appreciate the precious human life we have now. What distinguishes us from animals is our intelligence, but we have to use it meaningfully, not by harming others and indulging in sensory pleasures, but by tackling our disturbing emotions.

The Buddhist scriptures of the Kangyur and Tengyur can be categorised as dealing with Buddhist science, philosophy and religion. Buddhist science, dealing the science of the mind, is of universal benefit. Today, modern scientists are becoming aware of the wealth of knowledge in Buddhist literature concerning our emotions and the structure of our minds. Similarly, the Buddhist doctrine of dependent origination can be applied usefully in many other fields than spiritual development, such as science, economics and ecology and be of benefit to the 7 billion human beings on this planet.

This precious human life offers us many opportunities, but unless we become aware of impermanence and death we are unlikely to make use of them. The traditional meditation on death has nine points arranged under three headings: death is inevitable, the time of death is uncertain and nothing but what we have learned of the Dharma helps at the time of death. No matter how much wealth we accumulate in our lives, we can take none of it with us when we die. On this point, kings and beggars are the same. His Holiness remembered that when he and many other Tibetans left Tibet in 1959 they could take almost nothing with them. Despite all the precious, sacred artefacts stored in the Potala from the time of previous Dalai Lamas, he had to leave them all behind. Likewise, at the time of death, only the virtue we have accumulated in this life will be of help and will determine our next life.
 
“Knowing that death is inevitable, determine to practise the Dharma; knowing its time is uncertain, determine to practise now; abstain from non-virtue in conjunction with taking refuge in the Three Jewels. This is the cause for higher rebirth.”

His Holiness turned to the Three Principal Aspects of the Path by Je Tsongkhapa, written as a letter of advice to Ngawang Drakpa. Relating it to what he had just taught from the Lamp for the Path, His Holiness pointed out that when you find the suffering of others unbearable, you have become a person of supreme capacity, yet this does not occur if you have not already developed a determination to be free. Suffering is caused by our innate view of the transitory collection, our misconception of self. Our task is to see if we can free ourselves from this.

The final verses His Holiness read from the Three Principal Aspects of the Path dealt with developing the awakening mind of bodhichitta, the aspiration to achieve Buddhahood for the sake of others. To begin with it requires a great deal of effort, but if you give thought to it, it comes more naturally and you may eventually achieve it. At which point His Holiness joked that the immediate pressing need was for lunch.

Source:
http://www.sangye.it/dalailamanews/?p=5653#more-5653

michaela

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 555
Re: Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2012, 12:54:22 PM »
Since I became a DS practitioner end of last year, I have one through various feeling, that of indifference, confused, irritated, anger, harrassed, etc.  As apparent in my other posts, me too has tried to speculate about why HHDL ban DS.  But all these speculation remains a speculation.  Nothing has changed.  The ban is still there, and we are still practicing DS quietly for fear that our dear lama will be ostracized. 

Sometimes, I am tired of speaking about the same topic over and over again, but then I thought about my lama and my Dharma brothers and sisters who have been practicing DS underground longer than I am, their experiences must be worse than mine.

Regardless of how I feel about the ban, my faith in DS increases everyday as the evidence of his blessings are oblivious.  He has saved me many times from difficult and challenging situations.  I think at the end it is between me and DS and doing what I feel to be right.

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2012, 01:29:34 PM »
His Holiness has recently, again, talk about Dorje Shugden on the second day of the four day teachings in Leh, Ladakh. Now Panchen Lama is in the picture, and Gaden Jangtse monastery as well.  Oh yes, the Chinese spies still applies ;)

Well, at least now His Holiness did not talk about the ban, but just to not take vows or empowerments from His Holiness.


The 102th Gaden Tripa greets His Holiness the Dalai Lama at the teaching pavilion at Shewatsel Grounds in Leh on the last day of the four day teachings. The Tibetan spiritual leader gave teachings on Tsongkhapa's The Three Principal Paths (Tib: lamtso namsum) and Atisha's Lamp for the Path to Enlightenment (Tib: jangchup lamdron) and also confer an Avalokiteshvera Initiation (Tib: thukje chenpo jigten wangchuk wang)



Second Day of His Holiness’s Teachings in Leh
August 5th 2012

Leh, Ladakh, J&K, India, 5 August 2012 - His Holiness arrived at the teaching ground early for the second day of teachings today, walking from the Shiwatsel Phodrang to the new teaching pavilion. He said he would begin the explanation of the texts and that yesterday’s session had been more of an introductory talk. He also explained that tomorrow he would conduct the ceremonies for giving the lay-person’s precepts, generating the aspiration to enlightenment and the Bodhisattva vows, as well as an Avalokiteshvara empowerment.
 
Because the Bodhisattva vows and the empowerment involve creating a bond with the lama, he said he needed to talk, as he has done before, about the malevolent spirit Dolgyal (also known as Shugden). His Holiness said that anyone who still places their trust in Dolgyal would be better not to make a bond with him. He admitted that both he and the Ganden Tri Rinpoche, Rizong Rinpoche, sitting to his right on the platform, used to propitiate Dolgyal, but that both of them had stopped after his investigations had revealed that it was improper to do so.

“I found that Dolgyal appeared during the time of the Fifth Dalai Lama who knew who he was. He wrote an invocation to the Dharma Protectors of Tibet instructing them not to aid Dolgyal. He also wrote that Dolgyal had arisen as a result of distorted prayers and that his nature was malevolent, harming the Dharma and sentient beings.
What about the prayers written by the 5th Dalai Lama to Dorje Shugden after he discovered that Dorje Shugden was actually a Buddha? Also, Dolgyal here also could mean another spirit of the same name but not Dorje Shugden.

“Apparently the 10th Panchen Lama, Lobsang Trinley Lhündrub, had propitiated this spirit, but shortly before he passed away in 1989, he found a charter written by the 8th Panchen, Tenpai Wangchuk, forbidding the monks of Tashi Lhunpo from doing this practice. He then published a similar notice from Beijing prohibiting its practice. The 13th Dalai Lama also discouraged the practice. I took up the practice, but once I discovered the faults of doing so I stopped. Of my two tutors, Ling Rinpoche had nothing to do with Dolgyal, but Trijang Rinpoche followed the practice. When I stopped, it was with the full knowledge of both my tutors.
Oh and, why has nobody see this charter? Where is the notice? it is interesting why these documents are not put up on the Dalai Lama's website as evidence but are mentioned so freely talked about? I find it interesting that no hard evidence was ever presented.

Ganden Jangtse monastery faced difficulties as a result of turning to Dolgyal and overlooking Palden Lhamo. Many monks in the great monasteries have stopped propitiating Dolgyal, but some kept it up and formed a society, which is opposed to me and now receives support from the Chinese Communist authorities.”
Obviously, that ruling was created by the 1st Reting Rinpoche, Trichen Ngawang Chokden. So are you saying that Reting Rinpoche caused the monks of Ganden Jangtse to suffer?

His Holiness went on to say that anyone who has kept up the practice of Dolgyal out of ignorance should not have any fear about giving it up if they heed his advice. On the other hand, he said, whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you, all His Holiness asks is that such persons do not take vows or empowerments from him.

Well, well, well, this is a very different story from what HHDL had said many years ago about Dorje Shugden. So now HHDL is giving everyone the choice of free will to choose? interesting.



From this statement, we can see that HHDL's stance on Dorje Shugden has softened considerably compared to the first time he spoke out against Dorje Shugden. With interesting and mysterious "evidences" on why Dorje Shugden is bad, it is as if HHDL wants to challenge the intelligence of his followers to see if they would really take his word for it, or find actual evidence to enforce his words. Let's see which of his followers can find these evidence.

dsiluvu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1272
Re: Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2012, 10:01:18 PM »
Quote
His Holiness went on to say that anyone who has kept up the practice of Dolgyal out of ignorance should not have any fear about giving it up if they heed his advice. On the other hand, he said, whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you, all His Holiness asks is that such persons do not take vows or empowerments from him.


Yes this is rather interesting... thanks Ensapa for the latest updates... HHDL sure is cutting all Dorje Shugden practitioners off from His lineage this life... Could it be then to encourage more towards His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche...

After all HHDL has stated that he will most probably not return and the re will not be a 15th Dalai Lama to carry forward. So in a sense it really does not matter. So could it be He is encouraging us to actually seek refuge with H.H. Trijang Rinpoche?? Perhaps? 

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2012, 10:36:44 AM »
Quote
His Holiness went on to say that anyone who has kept up the practice of Dolgyal out of ignorance should not have any fear about giving it up if they heed his advice. On the other hand, he said, whatever fierce spirit you choose is up to you, all His Holiness asks is that such persons do not take vows or empowerments from him.


Yes this is rather interesting... thanks Ensapa for the latest updates... HHDL sure is cutting all Dorje Shugden practitioners off from His lineage this life... Could it be then to encourage more towards His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche...

After all HHDL has stated that he will most probably not return and the re will not be a 15th Dalai Lama to carry forward. So in a sense it really does not matter. So could it be He is encouraging us to actually seek refuge with H.H. Trijang Rinpoche?? Perhaps?

Or the Panchen Lama. Or the Karmapa. It could be any of those that will replace the Dalai Lama's role. Following his advice selectively can result to such consequences, where the Lama becomes very distant from the student in some ways or another, or decides to not come back and take back the title that he once held so that the 'former' students are unable to benefit from it in some way. I dont think HHDL is turning away people but he is somewhat giving a choice to people, whether or not they choose to be on his side or choose to be on the side of their root and lineage Gurus. I feel that this is a huge improvement over his past policies. It is as if he has loosened his stance. Perhaps, he is aware now that the international media is watching and he does not want to slip, but his softened statements does little to improve the situation on the ban and also to relieve the sufferings of those who are under the ban.

However it is, the outcome of the ban is that there are more people practicing Dorje Shugden more than ever,  and people being more smart to actually do their research on something before believing in it. It would breed a new generation of smarter Buddhists who will not believe in anything without prior investigation and make people rethinking why are they Buddhist in the first place.

michaela

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 555
Re: Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2012, 01:00:26 PM »
For once I agree with HHDL on the issue of DS, “The DS practitioners should not take vows or empowerment from him.“ 

I understand about  the fact that lama is a Buddha and all.  But I think HHDL should follow Tibetan Buddhist tradition and go on public debate about DS so all the doubts can be cleared.  I suggest this with no intention to humiliate HHDL and to show any disrespect towards him.  However, I think the truth should be revealed.  This ban has caused so much confusion, hatred and schism among Tibetan Buddhist followers.  I just hope that after the doubt is cleared, everyone can leave this episode behind and start fresh.

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: Why did the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden?
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2012, 02:11:24 PM »
For once I agree with HHDL on the issue of DS, “The DS practitioners should not take vows or empowerment from him.“ 

I understand about  the fact that lama is a Buddha and all.  But I think HHDL should follow Tibetan Buddhist tradition and go on public debate about DS so all the doubts can be cleared.  I suggest this with no intention to humiliate HHDL and to show any disrespect towards him.  However, I think the truth should be revealed.  This ban has caused so much confusion, hatred and schism among Tibetan Buddhist followers.  I just hope that after the doubt is cleared, everyone can leave this episode behind and start fresh.

Or, from another paradox, could it be that he is asking people to not take teachings from him because his samaya towards his root Guru is not clean and he does not wish to spread that around? What if that is the real reason behind the Dalai Lama asking people to not come to his teachings if they choose to do Dorje Shugden? And on that note the Dalai Lama lifts the ban after he has re-established spiritual connections with is teacher. Would that not be an interesting point of view to see the ban from? that is how i want to see it anyway, and that is what i do see as something plausible. HHDL is very kind and compassionate to placate the mass public and the other 3 traditions whose hate and vendetta against Dorje Shugden is very real and very strong because he cannot placate them without breaking his samaya to his Gelug Gurus, and thus to ban Dorje Shugden would be to break his samaya to the Gelug Gurus and therefore to help others maintain clean samaya with their own lineage, the Dalai Lama requests that they do not take teachings from him so that their samaya will not be affected.

That is my reasoning anyway. anyone else shares the same idea?