Author Topic: Why We Should Not Over-Criticize the Dalai Lama  (Read 11921 times)

LosangKhyentse

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Why We Should Not Over-Criticize the Dalai Lama
« on: August 15, 2010, 11:28:50 AM »
This is the way it should be. We do not give up or practice of dorje shugden. We create awareness among the general public regarding his practice the best we can eg by giving brochures is one way. We help those students who wish to help the monks of dorje shugden monasteries eg tenzin sungrab. We donate to Tenzin Sungrab. We can become pen pals of monks at Serpom/Shar Gaden. Sponsor them. Get information about them and post it here and everywhere to create awareness. Send monetary donations to them.  Post information here that are relevant/educational/and informational that will educate the thousands of readers who visit here and have a right to know what is happening. Negative rhetoric on the Dalai Lama convinces no one and impresses no one. These are some positive and constructive ways to expend our energy and resources for Dorje Shugen's cause.

We may not agree with some of Dalai Lama's policies. We make our stance clear, we write letters and and we refrain from harsh descriptives such as liar, dictator and hypocrite. We must present the information without sounding fanatical or motivated by anger. When we present the information such as on this forum, WE LET THE READERS DECIDE IF DALAI LAMA IS DOING WHAT HE IS DOING.

It is important NEVER TO HAVE HATE SITES THAT explicitly and obviously slander the Dalai Lama. Because we are Buddhists. Dorje Shugden would never approve of that.  And it would be much better to present the information to the public and newcomers in a even and fair manner. In the end, we want Dalai Lama to retract his ban and words against Shugden, but we do not want Dalai Lama harmed in anyway. It does us no good.

So this is important to understand here. I may not be screaming down with the Dalai Lama but that does not mean I agree with his policy on Shugden. But I choose Buddhist methods that does not infringe on my Bodhisattva/tantric vows to get the point across. After all, after I die, I face my karma. The intent is good, but the method must accord.

tk

WisdomBeing

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Re: Why We Should Not Over-Criticize the Dalai Lama
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2010, 12:23:18 PM »
HI Tk

I am so in agreement with this. I am 100% sure that everyone on this site disagrees with the Dalai Lama's ban and prays that he will rescind it or that the ban will eventually fade. However, just because we disagree with the ban doesn't mean that we have to disparage the Dalai Lama. As we are Buddhists, how on earth can we even make a negative comment about a member of the Sangha?

Besides, Dorje Shugden and HH Trijang Rinpoche have advised that we do not criticise the Dalai Lama, so I dare not disrespect or go against these holy beings.

I like your suggestions on how we can actively support Dorje Shugden's practice in positive ways instead of negative. I will definitely take them to heart and more importantly, put them into action! Thank you.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Mohani

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Re: Why We Should Not Over-Criticize the Dalai Lama
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2010, 12:44:22 PM »

I thought that there where many people here who go along with the bigger picture idea, if that is so then why would you disagree with the ban?
I am so in agreement with this. I am 100% sure that everyone on this site disagrees with the Dalai Lama's ban and prays that he will rescind it or that the ban will eventually fade.

I agree we shouldn't over critisise the DL. Since he has lied and and displayed great hypocrasy, has created a Scism in the Sangha through his dictator type actions, I am ok with calling him these things.
I would not call him a pervert, a murderer etc because as far as I know he is not these things.
If someone is doing one on the five heinous actions on a massive scale, is it our job to let them, should we turn our back on their actions and pretend they are not doing it?

beggar

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Re: Why We Should Not Over-Criticize the Dalai Lama
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2010, 12:59:44 PM »

I thought that there where many people here who go along with the bigger picture idea, if that is so then why would you disagree with the ban?
I am so in agreement with this. I am 100% sure that everyone on this site disagrees with the Dalai Lama's ban and prays that he will rescind it or that the ban will eventually fade.

I agree we shouldn't over critisise the DL. Since he has lied and and displayed great hypocrasy, has created a Scism in the Sangha through his dictator type actions, I am ok with calling him these things.
I would not call him a pervert, a murderer etc because as far as I know he is not these things.
If someone is doing one on the five heinous actions on a massive scale, is it our job to let them, should we turn our back on their actions and pretend they are not doing it?


to disagree with the ban means to disagree with the repercussions of the ban and  the actions it has led to, such as the ostracisation, the attacks, segregation and the way that TGIE and other dl followers have started acting. it also means to disagree with the illogical reasons given for the ban because it does not make sense.

This is not in contradiction to believing in a bigger picture where we believe that there is something more vast occuring which we cannot yet perceive or graps. it is also does not contradict the stance of  criticising the dalai lama.

some of us disagree with the actions of the ban but choose not to criticise the dalai lama as a person. There is a difference in discussing the actions and actually calling someone a liar because that immediately becomes a personal attack already and we do not wish to do that, respecting the fact that he is still the refuge and guru of many millions of people in the world.

as tk has pointed out in recent posts and i also agree strongly, I believe it makes a much stronger and convincing stance if we: 
- present the facts
- show people what is happening
- share information about what is going on, for example in tibetan communities and to the ds practitioners in these communities

People can see clearly for themselves then what is going on and make an informed decision. simply calling someone a liar and dictator over and over already becomes personal and easily starts sounding biased. Personally, if i met someone who just told me to my face that dalai lama is a liar, dictator etc it would turn me off from the start and i would not take him seriously. it would just sound fanatical and un-buddhist to be using those words. i would be more convinced of the situation if i was given all the facts and if someone discussed the logic or illogic of the situation with, and if i was given enough respect to make my own decision regarding something as important as a spiritual practice.

WisdomBeing

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Re: Why We Should Not Over-Criticize the Dalai Lama
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2010, 06:10:37 PM »
Dear Beggar,

Thank you for that succinct summary of things.

I'm beginning to wonder if there is just a huge miscommunication with those who don't agree with the bigger picture theory. If Mohani thinks that i support the ban, that's completely off track. Actually i'm quite shocked that he would think that.

My position has been repeated so often in so many threads that I think it's not necessary to repeat again here.

As i've often said - can we just respect our differences and see how we can support each other in our practice of Dorje Shugden?

Can we do the proactive suggestions as proposed by tk - supporting serpom and shar gaden etc?

Isn't that more constructive?

**just a tad tired of being attacked by anti-shugden and some pro-shugden people**
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

honeydakini

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Re: Why We Should Not Over-Criticize the Dalai Lama
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2010, 06:17:55 PM »
This is the way it should be. We do not give up or practice of dorje shugden. We create awareness among the general public regarding his practice the best we can eg by giving brochures is one way. We help those students who wish to help the monks of dorje shugden monasteries eg tenzin sungrab. We donate to Tenzin Sungrab. We can become pen pals of monks at Serpom/Shar Gaden. Sponsor them. Get information about them and post it here and everywhere to create awareness. Send monetary donations to them.  Post information here that are relevant/educational/and informational that will educate the thousands of readers who visit here and have a right to know what is happening. Negative rhetoric on the Dalai Lama convinces no one and impresses no one. These are some positive and constructive ways to expend our energy and resources for Dorje Shugen's cause.

This makes a lot of sense to me and reflects very well upon Dorje Shugden practitioners for contributing something positive back into the world. It is a pro-active stance, where we step forward to do something that adds to elevating the practice from a negative place (in the eyes of the world) to a more uplifting, inspiring place.

At the same time, of course, by promoting Dorje Shugden through these activities, we also, of course, promote and bring all the Dharma teachings to the world. For example, sponsoring serpom/shar gaden or sharing information about the lamas promotes all the amazing dharma activity and contribution they have given to the world at large. It helps to bring a little balance back into the situation I think :)

Helena

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Re: Why We Should Not Over-Criticize the Dalai Lama
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2010, 04:40:47 PM »
Dear WB,

I for one never thought that you ever supported the ban. Yes, you have made yourself clear many times, in many threads before this. You are a true hippie as you so call yourself - a real flower child. You prescribe to the view that we should not criticize any person, lama and in this case, the Dalai Lama. I share your views.

Thank you, TK for posting this because this presents the peaceful means for us to continue our practice and at the same time, we can promote more understanding and knowledge about Dorje Shugden - in a way that reflects our true practice.

I like the fact that we do more than just state our views. We contribute in the real sense to the cause - by supporting Shugden monasteries and monks. It appears that more and more monks are being enrolled in these monasteries. Hence, this is clear that the numbers are indeed rising and not decreasing.

Tulkus and great Lamas of Shugden are also returning.

At the same time, there are new people starting to practise such as myself. Also, there are some who are still practising in secret.

To really know of the true numbers, might be difficult but generally, I would deduce from the above that the numbers are increasing and not decreasing.

And when the Dalai Lama passes on (apologies), then we will really see Dorje Shugden become mainstream.

This is my own simplistic view.


Helena

WisdomBeing

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Re: Why We Should Not Over-Criticize the Dalai Lama
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2010, 04:37:13 AM »
Dear WB,

I for one never thought that you ever supported the ban. Yes, you have made yourself clear many times, in many threads before this. You are a true hippie as you so call yourself - a real flower child. You prescribe to the view that we should not criticize any person, lama and in this case, the Dalai Lama. I share your views.

Thank you, TK for posting this because this presents the peaceful means for us to continue our practice and at the same time, we can promote more understanding and knowledge about Dorje Shugden - in a way that reflects our true practice.

I like the fact that we do more than just state our views. We contribute in the real sense to the cause - by supporting Shugden monasteries and monks. It appears that more and more monks are being enrolled in these monasteries. Hence, this is clear that the numbers are indeed rising and not decreasing.

Tulkus and great Lamas of Shugden are also returning.

At the same time, there are new people starting to practise such as myself. Also, there are some who are still practising in secret.

To really know of the true numbers, might be difficult but generally, I would deduce from the above that the numbers are increasing and not decreasing.

And when the Dalai Lama passes on (apologies), then we will really see Dorje Shugden become mainstream.

This is my own simplistic view.


This conflict between the pro and anti Shugden camps reminds me of the huge wars between the Catholics and the Protestants. In fact, for a bit of trivia, the Spanish Inquisition started the same year that Panchen Sonam Dragpa was born! Despite so much persecution, the Protestants prevailed and are mainstream today, even though they were called heretics then and suffered greatly.

So although Shugden supporters are being persecuted now, I do believe that it is just temporary and as long as we the practitioners remain steadfast in our refuge vows and our own Dharma practice of patience and loving kindness, we too will prevail and Dorje Shugden will be mainstream soon.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

LosangKhyentse

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Re: Why We Should Not Over-Criticize the Dalai Lama
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2010, 10:56:27 AM »


Let Dalai Lama persecute Dorje Shugden and ban all he wants. Time is short for his ban. How much more can he speak up on it. How much more can he go ahead. The 'damage' is done. And he would look even more ridiculous talking about it further. The Monasteries have seperated. Those who wish to continue are continuing the practice. Those who don't stopped. But Dalai Lama has made Dorje Shugden a worldwide celebrity and the most famous Tibetan Deity. So we take over from there. We now promote Dorje Shugden. There are so many people out there who would like to know more and start to practice. Let's focus on them. Let's get to them. Dalai Lama couldn't get to all of them. There are more he has not gotten to that we can.

Now is not the time to criticize Dalai Lama but to get organized and promote Dorje Shugden through internet (like this site and others), through centres, through our own efforts, supporting Shar Gaden/Serpom, sponsoring the monks, sponsoring their activities, keeping up with our own practice, having harmony within the practitioners of Dorje Shugden, etc. Dalai Lama did us a great favour. Let's move on from there.

tk

icy

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Re: Why We Should Not Over-Criticize the Dalai Lama
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2010, 06:09:26 AM »
I am positively sure that many people whether you are in the East or the West have previously taken the Dalai Lama as your Lama and especially many had had received initiations from Him.   It is so absolutely undharmic to disparage one's Lama.  I shudder at the thought of the consequences.

Yes, we should move forward instead and make Dorje Shugden take onto the world centre stage from now on.  Let's promote Dorje Shugden effectively in whatever ways and manner necessary for it to spread like wild fire.  I feel with the kind of publicity Dorje Shugden is receiving it is time for him to stay and become the world famous Protector, no one can ignore or put down any more.   

triesa

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Re: Why We Should Not Over-Criticize the Dalai Lama
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2010, 07:34:55 AM »


Let Dalai Lama persecute Dorje Shugden and ban all he wants. Time is short for his ban. How much more can he speak up on it. How much more can he go ahead. The 'damage' is done. And he would look even more ridiculous talking about it further. The Monasteries have seperated. Those who wish to continue are continuing the practice. Those who don't stopped. But Dalai Lama has made Dorje Shugden a worldwide celebrity and the most famous Tibetan Deity. So we take over from there. We now promote Dorje Shugden. There are so many people out there who would like to know more and start to practice. Let's focus on them. Let's get to them. Dalai Lama couldn't get to all of them. There are more he has not gotten to that we can.

Now is not the time to criticize Dalai Lama but to get organized and promote Dorje Shugden through internet (like this site and others), through centres, through our own efforts, supporting Shar Gaden/Serpom, sponsoring the monks, sponsoring their activities, keeping up with our own practice, having harmony within the practitioners of Dorje Shugden, etc. Dalai Lama did us a great favour. Let's move on from there.

tk

Yes, why spend so much negative energy to promote more hatred to the world? Negative energy only breeds more negativies to follow, is that what we want? We don't agree does not mean we have to harp on the issue ALL THE TIME whenever we can. It is like old aunties talking and complaining the same thing over and over again......... but nothing changes and they will repeat the same complaint again tomorrow. Really tiring....

For instance, I do not agree with the Dalai Lama's ban on Dorje Shugden, I would choose to take a more proactive approach do whatever it takes to pormote DS, I would not spend any more time on just bashing Dalai Lama, because I am a buddhist so I would not promote disharmony among the buddhist community; because I am a Dorje Shugden practitioner and Dorje Shugden has told us that we should not talk bad on the Dalai Lama.

So please do positive actions, positive actions lead to positive results ;) Support all the casues for Dorje Shugden lineage to prevail. There are so many ways.........even keeping harmony among the Shugden practitioners is one easy simple way to make the lineage flourish!

Triesa


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Re: Why We Should Not Over-Criticize the Dalai Lama
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2010, 10:34:36 AM »
One thing that has helped me with this is thinking of how the great Lamas have handled this issue.
If we believe that every aspect of their life is a teaching, then how they handle this issue is a teaching as well.
I have not heard of one Lama say nasty things about any other Lama. My own teachers have not spoken harshly, and for me that is a teaching on how I should act.


WisdomBeing

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Re: Why We Should Not Over-Criticize the Dalai Lama
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2010, 01:49:10 PM »
One thing that has helped me with this is thinking of how the great Lamas have handled this issue.
If we believe that every aspect of their life is a teaching, then how they handle this issue is a teaching as well.
I have not heard of one Lama say nasty things about any other Lama. My own teachers have not spoken harshly, and for me that is a teaching on how I should act.


Tenzin Sungrab,

You're so right. I've not read of any Lama saying nasty things about other Lamas either. Unfortunately, any nasty things i have read are by supposed Buddhist practitioners.

I like your comment very much. We should definitely follow the wonderful examples set by the Lamas.

Thank you.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

shugdenprotect

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Re: Why We Should Not Over-Criticize the Dalai Lama
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2010, 03:12:31 PM »
If we disagree with the Dalai Lama’s actions that create schism among the sangha community, we should not create the potential speech or action to do the same. In calling Dalai Lama harsh names like hypocrite, dictator etc., we are creating schism. We are adding fuel to a dangerous fire.

To stop this fire, we need to resort to other methods. As clearly listed out in this thread, there are many readily available constructive ways.

Therefore, I agree that it is time to MOVE ON! Even the Chinese people are spending less and less time and energy on the Dalai Lama issue and focusing on actual Dharma practice. In some ways, for a Chinese individual to learn and develop his or her most basic Dharma understanding and practice in China, he or she faces many challenges that are similar to Dorje Shugden practitioner in the Dharma world. The tight control and “watchful eyes” of the local authority causes this situation for Chinese Dharma seekers and practitioners. Therefore, if more and more individuals within the Chinese society who has been (even more violently) stripped of their religion and religious culture & tradition can move on, so should we…so can we.

beggar

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Re: Why We Should Not Over-Criticize the Dalai Lama
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2010, 07:17:46 PM »
One thing that has helped me with this is thinking of how the great Lamas have handled this issue.
If we believe that every aspect of their life is a teaching, then how they handle this issue is a teaching as well.
I have not heard of one Lama say nasty things about any other Lama. My own teachers have not spoken harshly, and for me that is a teaching on how I should act.



What a great way of looking at things. Just like the new thread about Ribur Rinpoche – look at how much he suffered at the hands of the Chinese! And yet how much light he returned to the world in exchange for all that.

Looks like this is what the monks in Shar Gaden and Serpom are doing now. They are a real reflection of Dorje Shugden and all the lineage masters – real good practice that only encourages more good and more practice in others. You look at all they have been through and you feel even more inspired by what they are doing. They don’t make you feel uneasy or sad in any way because they take every bad situation and make it a good one.

Thanks TS for sharing this. It’s just what I’ve thought before too and it sure is good to see it still so alive right now in the monasteries.

yours, a grateful beggar