dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: LosangKhyentse on August 15, 2010, 11:28:50 AM
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This is the way it should be. We do not give up or practice of dorje shugden. We create awareness among the general public regarding his practice the best we can eg by giving brochures is one way. We help those students who wish to help the monks of dorje shugden monasteries eg tenzin sungrab. We donate to Tenzin Sungrab. We can become pen pals of monks at Serpom/Shar Gaden. Sponsor them. Get information about them and post it here and everywhere to create awareness. Send monetary donations to them. Post information here that are relevant/educational/and informational that will educate the thousands of readers who visit here and have a right to know what is happening. Negative rhetoric on the Dalai Lama convinces no one and impresses no one. These are some positive and constructive ways to expend our energy and resources for Dorje Shugen's cause.
We may not agree with some of Dalai Lama's policies. We make our stance clear, we write letters and and we refrain from harsh descriptives such as liar, dictator and hypocrite. We must present the information without sounding fanatical or motivated by anger. When we present the information such as on this forum, WE LET THE READERS DECIDE IF DALAI LAMA IS DOING WHAT HE IS DOING.
It is important NEVER TO HAVE HATE SITES THAT explicitly and obviously slander the Dalai Lama. Because we are Buddhists. Dorje Shugden would never approve of that. And it would be much better to present the information to the public and newcomers in a even and fair manner. In the end, we want Dalai Lama to retract his ban and words against Shugden, but we do not want Dalai Lama harmed in anyway. It does us no good.
So this is important to understand here. I may not be screaming down with the Dalai Lama but that does not mean I agree with his policy on Shugden. But I choose Buddhist methods that does not infringe on my Bodhisattva/tantric vows to get the point across. After all, after I die, I face my karma. The intent is good, but the method must accord.
tk
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HI Tk
I am so in agreement with this. I am 100% sure that everyone on this site disagrees with the Dalai Lama's ban and prays that he will rescind it or that the ban will eventually fade. However, just because we disagree with the ban doesn't mean that we have to disparage the Dalai Lama. As we are Buddhists, how on earth can we even make a negative comment about a member of the Sangha?
Besides, Dorje Shugden and HH Trijang Rinpoche have advised that we do not criticise the Dalai Lama, so I dare not disrespect or go against these holy beings.
I like your suggestions on how we can actively support Dorje Shugden's practice in positive ways instead of negative. I will definitely take them to heart and more importantly, put them into action! Thank you.
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I thought that there where many people here who go along with the bigger picture idea, if that is so then why would you disagree with the ban?
I am so in agreement with this. I am 100% sure that everyone on this site disagrees with the Dalai Lama's ban and prays that he will rescind it or that the ban will eventually fade.
I agree we shouldn't over critisise the DL. Since he has lied and and displayed great hypocrasy, has created a Scism in the Sangha through his dictator type actions, I am ok with calling him these things.
I would not call him a pervert, a murderer etc because as far as I know he is not these things.
If someone is doing one on the five heinous actions on a massive scale, is it our job to let them, should we turn our back on their actions and pretend they are not doing it?
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I thought that there where many people here who go along with the bigger picture idea, if that is so then why would you disagree with the ban?
I am so in agreement with this. I am 100% sure that everyone on this site disagrees with the Dalai Lama's ban and prays that he will rescind it or that the ban will eventually fade.
I agree we shouldn't over critisise the DL. Since he has lied and and displayed great hypocrasy, has created a Scism in the Sangha through his dictator type actions, I am ok with calling him these things.
I would not call him a pervert, a murderer etc because as far as I know he is not these things.
If someone is doing one on the five heinous actions on a massive scale, is it our job to let them, should we turn our back on their actions and pretend they are not doing it?
to disagree with the ban means to disagree with the repercussions of the ban and the actions it has led to, such as the ostracisation, the attacks, segregation and the way that TGIE and other dl followers have started acting. it also means to disagree with the illogical reasons given for the ban because it does not make sense.
This is not in contradiction to believing in a bigger picture where we believe that there is something more vast occuring which we cannot yet perceive or graps. it is also does not contradict the stance of criticising the dalai lama.
some of us disagree with the actions of the ban but choose not to criticise the dalai lama as a person. There is a difference in discussing the actions and actually calling someone a liar because that immediately becomes a personal attack already and we do not wish to do that, respecting the fact that he is still the refuge and guru of many millions of people in the world.
as tk has pointed out in recent posts and i also agree strongly, I believe it makes a much stronger and convincing stance if we:
- present the facts
- show people what is happening
- share information about what is going on, for example in tibetan communities and to the ds practitioners in these communities
People can see clearly for themselves then what is going on and make an informed decision. simply calling someone a liar and dictator over and over already becomes personal and easily starts sounding biased. Personally, if i met someone who just told me to my face that dalai lama is a liar, dictator etc it would turn me off from the start and i would not take him seriously. it would just sound fanatical and un-buddhist to be using those words. i would be more convinced of the situation if i was given all the facts and if someone discussed the logic or illogic of the situation with, and if i was given enough respect to make my own decision regarding something as important as a spiritual practice.
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Dear Beggar,
Thank you for that succinct summary of things.
I'm beginning to wonder if there is just a huge miscommunication with those who don't agree with the bigger picture theory. If Mohani thinks that i support the ban, that's completely off track. Actually i'm quite shocked that he would think that.
My position has been repeated so often in so many threads that I think it's not necessary to repeat again here.
As i've often said - can we just respect our differences and see how we can support each other in our practice of Dorje Shugden?
Can we do the proactive suggestions as proposed by tk - supporting serpom and shar gaden etc?
Isn't that more constructive?
**just a tad tired of being attacked by anti-shugden and some pro-shugden people**
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This is the way it should be. We do not give up or practice of dorje shugden. We create awareness among the general public regarding his practice the best we can eg by giving brochures is one way. We help those students who wish to help the monks of dorje shugden monasteries eg tenzin sungrab. We donate to Tenzin Sungrab. We can become pen pals of monks at Serpom/Shar Gaden. Sponsor them. Get information about them and post it here and everywhere to create awareness. Send monetary donations to them. Post information here that are relevant/educational/and informational that will educate the thousands of readers who visit here and have a right to know what is happening. Negative rhetoric on the Dalai Lama convinces no one and impresses no one. These are some positive and constructive ways to expend our energy and resources for Dorje Shugen's cause.
This makes a lot of sense to me and reflects very well upon Dorje Shugden practitioners for contributing something positive back into the world. It is a pro-active stance, where we step forward to do something that adds to elevating the practice from a negative place (in the eyes of the world) to a more uplifting, inspiring place.
At the same time, of course, by promoting Dorje Shugden through these activities, we also, of course, promote and bring all the Dharma teachings to the world. For example, sponsoring serpom/shar gaden or sharing information about the lamas promotes all the amazing dharma activity and contribution they have given to the world at large. It helps to bring a little balance back into the situation I think :)
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Dear WB,
I for one never thought that you ever supported the ban. Yes, you have made yourself clear many times, in many threads before this. You are a true hippie as you so call yourself - a real flower child. You prescribe to the view that we should not criticize any person, lama and in this case, the Dalai Lama. I share your views.
Thank you, TK for posting this because this presents the peaceful means for us to continue our practice and at the same time, we can promote more understanding and knowledge about Dorje Shugden - in a way that reflects our true practice.
I like the fact that we do more than just state our views. We contribute in the real sense to the cause - by supporting Shugden monasteries and monks. It appears that more and more monks are being enrolled in these monasteries. Hence, this is clear that the numbers are indeed rising and not decreasing.
Tulkus and great Lamas of Shugden are also returning.
At the same time, there are new people starting to practise such as myself. Also, there are some who are still practising in secret.
To really know of the true numbers, might be difficult but generally, I would deduce from the above that the numbers are increasing and not decreasing.
And when the Dalai Lama passes on (apologies), then we will really see Dorje Shugden become mainstream.
This is my own simplistic view.
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Dear WB,
I for one never thought that you ever supported the ban. Yes, you have made yourself clear many times, in many threads before this. You are a true hippie as you so call yourself - a real flower child. You prescribe to the view that we should not criticize any person, lama and in this case, the Dalai Lama. I share your views.
Thank you, TK for posting this because this presents the peaceful means for us to continue our practice and at the same time, we can promote more understanding and knowledge about Dorje Shugden - in a way that reflects our true practice.
I like the fact that we do more than just state our views. We contribute in the real sense to the cause - by supporting Shugden monasteries and monks. It appears that more and more monks are being enrolled in these monasteries. Hence, this is clear that the numbers are indeed rising and not decreasing.
Tulkus and great Lamas of Shugden are also returning.
At the same time, there are new people starting to practise such as myself. Also, there are some who are still practising in secret.
To really know of the true numbers, might be difficult but generally, I would deduce from the above that the numbers are increasing and not decreasing.
And when the Dalai Lama passes on (apologies), then we will really see Dorje Shugden become mainstream.
This is my own simplistic view.
This conflict between the pro and anti Shugden camps reminds me of the huge wars between the Catholics and the Protestants. In fact, for a bit of trivia, the Spanish Inquisition started the same year that Panchen Sonam Dragpa was born! Despite so much persecution, the Protestants prevailed and are mainstream today, even though they were called heretics then and suffered greatly.
So although Shugden supporters are being persecuted now, I do believe that it is just temporary and as long as we the practitioners remain steadfast in our refuge vows and our own Dharma practice of patience and loving kindness, we too will prevail and Dorje Shugden will be mainstream soon.
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Let Dalai Lama persecute Dorje Shugden and ban all he wants. Time is short for his ban. How much more can he speak up on it. How much more can he go ahead. The 'damage' is done. And he would look even more ridiculous talking about it further. The Monasteries have seperated. Those who wish to continue are continuing the practice. Those who don't stopped. But Dalai Lama has made Dorje Shugden a worldwide celebrity and the most famous Tibetan Deity. So we take over from there. We now promote Dorje Shugden. There are so many people out there who would like to know more and start to practice. Let's focus on them. Let's get to them. Dalai Lama couldn't get to all of them. There are more he has not gotten to that we can.
Now is not the time to criticize Dalai Lama but to get organized and promote Dorje Shugden through internet (like this site and others), through centres, through our own efforts, supporting Shar Gaden/Serpom, sponsoring the monks, sponsoring their activities, keeping up with our own practice, having harmony within the practitioners of Dorje Shugden, etc. Dalai Lama did us a great favour. Let's move on from there.
tk
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I am positively sure that many people whether you are in the East or the West have previously taken the Dalai Lama as your Lama and especially many had had received initiations from Him. It is so absolutely undharmic to disparage one's Lama. I shudder at the thought of the consequences.
Yes, we should move forward instead and make Dorje Shugden take onto the world centre stage from now on. Let's promote Dorje Shugden effectively in whatever ways and manner necessary for it to spread like wild fire. I feel with the kind of publicity Dorje Shugden is receiving it is time for him to stay and become the world famous Protector, no one can ignore or put down any more.
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Let Dalai Lama persecute Dorje Shugden and ban all he wants. Time is short for his ban. How much more can he speak up on it. How much more can he go ahead. The 'damage' is done. And he would look even more ridiculous talking about it further. The Monasteries have seperated. Those who wish to continue are continuing the practice. Those who don't stopped. But Dalai Lama has made Dorje Shugden a worldwide celebrity and the most famous Tibetan Deity. So we take over from there. We now promote Dorje Shugden. There are so many people out there who would like to know more and start to practice. Let's focus on them. Let's get to them. Dalai Lama couldn't get to all of them. There are more he has not gotten to that we can.
Now is not the time to criticize Dalai Lama but to get organized and promote Dorje Shugden through internet (like this site and others), through centres, through our own efforts, supporting Shar Gaden/Serpom, sponsoring the monks, sponsoring their activities, keeping up with our own practice, having harmony within the practitioners of Dorje Shugden, etc. Dalai Lama did us a great favour. Let's move on from there.
tk
Yes, why spend so much negative energy to promote more hatred to the world? Negative energy only breeds more negativies to follow, is that what we want? We don't agree does not mean we have to harp on the issue ALL THE TIME whenever we can. It is like old aunties talking and complaining the same thing over and over again......... but nothing changes and they will repeat the same complaint again tomorrow. Really tiring....
For instance, I do not agree with the Dalai Lama's ban on Dorje Shugden, I would choose to take a more proactive approach do whatever it takes to pormote DS, I would not spend any more time on just bashing Dalai Lama, because I am a buddhist so I would not promote disharmony among the buddhist community; because I am a Dorje Shugden practitioner and Dorje Shugden has told us that we should not talk bad on the Dalai Lama.
So please do positive actions, positive actions lead to positive results ;) Support all the casues for Dorje Shugden lineage to prevail. There are so many ways.........even keeping harmony among the Shugden practitioners is one easy simple way to make the lineage flourish!
Triesa
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One thing that has helped me with this is thinking of how the great Lamas have handled this issue.
If we believe that every aspect of their life is a teaching, then how they handle this issue is a teaching as well.
I have not heard of one Lama say nasty things about any other Lama. My own teachers have not spoken harshly, and for me that is a teaching on how I should act.
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One thing that has helped me with this is thinking of how the great Lamas have handled this issue.
If we believe that every aspect of their life is a teaching, then how they handle this issue is a teaching as well.
I have not heard of one Lama say nasty things about any other Lama. My own teachers have not spoken harshly, and for me that is a teaching on how I should act.
Tenzin Sungrab,
You're so right. I've not read of any Lama saying nasty things about other Lamas either. Unfortunately, any nasty things i have read are by supposed Buddhist practitioners.
I like your comment very much. We should definitely follow the wonderful examples set by the Lamas.
Thank you.
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If we disagree with the Dalai Lama’s actions that create schism among the sangha community, we should not create the potential speech or action to do the same. In calling Dalai Lama harsh names like hypocrite, dictator etc., we are creating schism. We are adding fuel to a dangerous fire.
To stop this fire, we need to resort to other methods. As clearly listed out in this thread, there are many readily available constructive ways.
Therefore, I agree that it is time to MOVE ON! Even the Chinese people are spending less and less time and energy on the Dalai Lama issue and focusing on actual Dharma practice. In some ways, for a Chinese individual to learn and develop his or her most basic Dharma understanding and practice in China, he or she faces many challenges that are similar to Dorje Shugden practitioner in the Dharma world. The tight control and “watchful eyes” of the local authority causes this situation for Chinese Dharma seekers and practitioners. Therefore, if more and more individuals within the Chinese society who has been (even more violently) stripped of their religion and religious culture & tradition can move on, so should we…so can we.
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One thing that has helped me with this is thinking of how the great Lamas have handled this issue.
If we believe that every aspect of their life is a teaching, then how they handle this issue is a teaching as well.
I have not heard of one Lama say nasty things about any other Lama. My own teachers have not spoken harshly, and for me that is a teaching on how I should act.
What a great way of looking at things. Just like the new thread about Ribur Rinpoche – look at how much he suffered at the hands of the Chinese! And yet how much light he returned to the world in exchange for all that.
Looks like this is what the monks in Shar Gaden and Serpom are doing now. They are a real reflection of Dorje Shugden and all the lineage masters – real good practice that only encourages more good and more practice in others. You look at all they have been through and you feel even more inspired by what they are doing. They don’t make you feel uneasy or sad in any way because they take every bad situation and make it a good one.
Thanks TS for sharing this. It’s just what I’ve thought before too and it sure is good to see it still so alive right now in the monasteries.
yours, a grateful beggar
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One thing that has helped me with this is thinking of how the great Lamas have handled this issue.
If we believe that every aspect of their life is a teaching, then how they handle this issue is a teaching as well.
I have not heard of one Lama say nasty things about any other Lama. My own teachers have not spoken harshly, and for me that is a teaching on how I should act.
Beautiful! So much time spent on criticizing can be such a waste. I agree 100% with TK to present facts but do what we can to promote our Protector!
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TK is not only wise but speaks in accord with dharma.
Buddhas advice had always been for us to not dwell on things which bring no benefit and to go for things which bring benefit.
The exhortation here is not to OVER-CRITICIZE .
It is not to stop you from expressing opinions. After we have done our analysis and given an opinion, we should move on to doing things that benefit us most. If DS practice had given us benefit, and our faith is strong, a ban like this may shake us momentarily but should not throw us away. Not especially when we have a very good angle to consider based on the larger picture principle. Moreover, enough is enough and we should not let these issue become a preoccupation and distract us from our path.
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Well said, Kurava!
If we cannot even endure hardships and trying times, then we will never commit to the Dharma and go all the way. Because every time something happens, it is enough to tear us away from the Dharma and make us totally unstable. Why? Because we are so dependent on everything external to us to move us forward or into any direction, for that matter.
Sometimes, we can even go through very trying times with our Guru - especially when we have done something wrong REPEATEDLy and the Guru has no choice but to use wrathful methods to wake us up and stop us in our path of destruction. So, because the Guru is wrathful we then run away and stop practice? We abandon everything???
IF we do, then we cannot really be that committed to Dharma in the first place.
The only thing we are committed to is "external factors" because we would only practice and like to practice when all "external factors" are in our favour.
All things external are just reflection of who we are inside.
I remember going through a very tough time with my Guru once and boy, did I feel completely dejected for all the things that I have done wrong. Ordinarily, I would have succumbed into my self-piteous ways and feel very sorry for myself. I would even console myself that I was so innocent and I should not need to go through this. But that inner dialogue lasted for about 5 minutes. After which I did realise that everything that I wanted or preferred was just solely designed to fulfill my own selfish needs. Especially, how I preferred people should act towards me, and even my Guru. I was very attached to the way I view things and people. But my Guru was so skillful in breaking down all those perceptions and delusions within me - despite me not liking one second of it.
After I realised that every single thing which my Guru was doing is really a teaching in itself, I began to focus on learning the lessons and not focus so much on what I was feeling or thinking. I wanted to rise above this and move forward.
I actually began to have more faith in my Guru after that whole experience although during I thought he was not very nice at all. After that whole experience, I began to see things and myself very differently. I just refuse to let anything or anyone stop me from going into Dharma wholeheartedly.
And really, the only person who has that kind of overwhelming power to stop us from our practice is ultimately, ourselves.
To me, Dharma is to make us better people and not to stay as we are or to continue as we are.
So, we can choose to rise or fall or even become embroiled with the whole samsaric drama - the choice is always with you. No one can stop - not really. No one ever could and ever will.
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Well said, Kurava!
If we cannot even endure hardships and trying times, then we will never commit to the Dharma and go all the way. Because every time something happens, it is enough to tear us away from the Dharma and make us totally unstable. Why? Because we are so dependent on everything external to us to move us forward or into any direction, for that matter.
The thing is that we CAN endure hardships and trying times - we do it for everything else in our lives like relationships, a job, family etc etc But when it comes to the most important thing in our lives - our enlightenment and spiritual journey - we suddenly find it difficult to push ourselves or go beyond our boundaries.
What you have said is very right. We are more attached to the external factors of our spiritual practice should be. Then when things don't go the way we expect spiritual practice to, we freak out. We think, "this isn't how it's supposed to make me feel" and we go away from it. But why don't we think like that when we do business or when we're in a job? we don't think "oh... this business is hard work, it's not at all like what i thought it would be. let's just give up. it's too difficult.".... no, in fact, if our business isn't working, we push ourselves even harder, we work longer hours, we endure more and more of the things we don't like.
Ironic, isn't it? that we can apply more effort, bear with more difficulty in things that actually bring us down (i.e. everything in samsaray) but for the things that are good for us (dharma, attainments), we don't want to go that extra mile?
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Well said, HD!
I agree 100%!
In this day and age, everything around us is designed and created to make it more convenient and easy for us to remain attached to everything in samsara. In fact, they are engineered to make us stay trapped in samsara and not liberate us from samsara.
It is by making everything so convenient and easy and beautiful, we remain attached. It becomes too easy for us to become attached to one thing or another. Hence, we will never leave samsara.
Yet in the only hope we have in true liberation, we view it as a chore, a prison and a real pain in our every day lives.
It is beyond ironic.
It is the sad reality of the human tragedy.
Such is "divine comedy" of our lives.
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Does anyone know what the "consequences" are, according to the lamrim, when we face our karma upon death if in this lifetime we, not only over-criticize, but merely criticize the Dalai Lama?
Does it matter if he's our guru or not when it comes to criticizing HHDL?
In my honest opinion, I make a conscious effort to never think anything negative about HHDL, because I feel that that itself creates negative karma seeing as he is the living emanation of Avalokiteshvara..
If I can think anything negative about him, it means that I can think negatively about a Buddha .. the basis of my practice should therefore be non-existent. Why else would I be on the path to enlightenment if I think negatively of the very end of my goal.
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Does anyone know what the "consequences" are, according to the lamrim, when we face our karma upon death if in this lifetime we, not only over-criticize, but merely criticize the Dalai Lama?
Does it matter if he's our guru or not when it comes to criticizing HHDL?
In my honest opinion, I make a conscious effort to never think anything negative about HHDL, because I feel that that itself creates negative karma seeing as he is the living emanation of Avalokiteshvara..
If I can think anything negative about him, it means that I can think negatively about a Buddha .. the basis of my practice should therefore be non-existent. Why else would I be on the path to enlightenment if I think negatively of the very end of my goal.
Over-criticise or criticise stem from one thing: the motivation for that criticism. Whatever it is, it usually cannot be a good thing. People criticise for their own agendas – usually it is to put the lama down or start questioning the validity of his practices and teachings. Why would we want to do that?!
Yes, this action/speech is very damaging for several reasons:
1) Once you start criticising one lama, you set a precedent to be able to criticise another lama, and another lama and another lama… then what teachings are sacred anymore?
2) imagine all those students you might affect from this criticism. The very lama that you dislike and are criticising is someone else’s root teacher who they have relied upon very strongly for many, many years. Imagine the potential doubt and negative thoughts you plant in THEIR minds which could turn them away from the teacher and the dharma. Somehow, it will link back to you and you face that karma of splitting someone from their dharma teacher or centre.
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I personally would never criticise ANY lama for the fact that they know BETTER than me what they are doing.
I have been thinking a lot re NKT and FPMT lately and why the seeming "opposite" direction - NKT full force supporting Shugden and FPMT supporting the Dalai Lama. Perhaps there's a reason although I might not know it.
Anyway, in supporting Dalai Lama, Lama Zopa has quoted these below, which I think is good for us to reflect that we should not criticise a Bodhisattva. It has been mentioned by the Buddha that Chenrezig will manifest and work as an ordinary being.
Let us not be fooled by our delusion, for many who met Lord Shakyamuni during his time also had wrong views that Buddha was "ordinary". Let's not be the Devadattas and create schism & obstacles for the growth of Buddhadharma and holy protector's practice.
"There are many contemporary and ancient stories about His Holiness Dalai Lama that, together with valid quotations from the scriptures, prove that His Holiness the Dalai Lama is Chenrezig; the Buddha of Compassion. [See Lama Zopa's talks In Praise of His Holiness the Fourteenth Dalai Lama (http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=371) and Great Compassion and His Holiness the Dalai Lama] The qualities of his holy body, speech and mind, his great compassion and his holy actions are as limitless as the sky and benefit not only the East but also the West; in fact, every country in the world.
His Holiness has even managed to spread the Dharma to far-flung countries where normally you’d never hear any Buddhadharma at all. Like the rising sun, he has shed the light of Dharma upon the sentient beings who live in those countries, leading them along the pure path to peace and happiness, to liberation and enlightenment. Because of such incredible, extensive work throughout the world, His Holiness’s kindness is beyond measure.
What proves that the founder of the Buddhadharma, Shakyamuni Buddha, is a pure founder, a valid founder? This is proven by his teaching being pure and valid. Similarly, the fact that even ordinary beings like us can see the extensive qualities of His Holiness’s holy body, speech and mind proves that he is the Buddha of Compassion.
Further proof that His Holiness is the Buddha of Compassion comes from Guru Shakyamuni Buddha in India, when he predicted to the bodhisattva Eliminating Defilements (Dribpa Namsäl), “The sentient beings in the Snowland of Tibet will be subdued by the Buddha of Compassion.”
Guru Shakyamuni Buddha also predicted to the bodhisattva Thayä Rigchog, “The Chenrezig who is going to work for the transmigratory beings of the Snowland of Tibet is you.”
Furthermore, the teachings say, “The guide of all the sentient beings in the Snowland of Tibet will hold the position of a king. The savior of Tibet, Phurgyäl Yül, is my heart disciple. His holy mind is completely clear, without obscuration, but he will work for sentient beings in a hidden manner by acting as an ordinary being.”
When we meet this Chenrezig that the Buddha predicted, hear his holy speech and are guided by him with compassion, if His Holiness Dalai Lama is not that Chenrezig, who else can Chenrezig be? If His Holiness is not Chenrezig, then nobody can be Chenrezig; even those great yogis who are said to be incarnations of this buddha or that are suspect. You can’t trust any other incarnation.
Source: http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=335&chid=1398
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TK is not only wise but speaks in accord with dharma.
Buddhas advice had always been for us to not dwell on things which bring no benefit and to go for things which bring benefit.
The exhortation here is not to OVER-CRITICIZE .
It is not to stop you from expressing opinions. After we have done our analysis and given an opinion, we should move on to doing things that benefit us most. If DS practice had given us benefit, and our faith is strong, a ban like this may shake us momentarily but should not throw us away. Not especially when we have a very good angle to consider based on the larger picture principle. Moreover, enough is enough and we should not let these issue become a preoccupation and distract us from our path.
Well said. Everyone has a right to express opinions. However, after that it is better to move on and spend time on positive actions, like doing the actual practice.
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This is the way it should be. We do not give up or practice of dorje shugden. We create awareness among the general public regarding his practice the best we can eg by giving brochures is one way. We help those students who wish to help the monks of dorje shugden monasteries eg tenzin sungrab. We donate to Tenzin Sungrab. We can become pen pals of monks at Serpom/Shar Gaden. Sponsor them. Get information about them and post it here and everywhere to create awareness. Send monetary donations to them. Post information here that are relevant/educational/and informational that will educate the thousands of readers who visit here and have a right to know what is happening. Negative rhetoric on the Dalai Lama convinces no one and impresses no one. These are some positive and constructive ways to expend our energy and resources for Dorje Shugen's cause.
Dear TK, I love what you have wrote here, and the direction that you have recommended for us Dorje Shugden practitioners. It makes a lot of sense in more ways than one as I believe that my protector is an enlightened being and a Buddha, and he would never approve of me going against the Dalai Lama or any lama for that matter. It makes sense so much.
We may not agree with some of Dalai Lama's policies. We make our stance clear, we write letters and and we refrain from harsh descriptives such as liar, dictator and hypocrite. We must present the information without sounding fanatical or motivated by anger. When we present the information such as on this forum, WE LET THE READERS DECIDE IF DALAI LAMA IS DOING WHAT HE IS DOING.
I think being against the Dalai Lama only proves to people that Dorje Shugden is bad as everyone knows that the Dalai Lama is good. He might have some repressive policies like what TK here has said, but it does not give us the green light to act in a non dharmic manner. Therefore, I do support TK's stance and I find this explanation very apt and logical.
It is important NEVER TO HAVE HATE SITES THAT explicitly and obviously slander the Dalai Lama. Because we are Buddhists. Dorje Shugden would never approve of that. And it would be much better to present the information to the public and newcomers in a even and fair manner. In the end, we want Dalai Lama to retract his ban and words against Shugden, but we do not want Dalai Lama harmed in anyway. It does us no good.
If we harm the Dalai Lama's reputation, what do we get? Who would actually buy that? Everyone knows, including those of other faiths, that the Dalai Lama is the face of Tibetan Buddhism. If he says Dorje Shugden is bad and we prove that to him with harsh words and anger directed to him, are we not proving him right? we should prove him wrong. We should let people learn about Dorje Shugden and let them decide. Because in Buddhism there is always a choice. If we dont give people a choice, we are contradicting the Buddha's words and creed.
So this is important to understand here. I may not be screaming down with the Dalai Lama but that does not mean I agree with his policy on Shugden. But I choose Buddhist methods that does not infringe on my Bodhisattva/tantric vows to get the point across. After all, after I die, I face my karma. The intent is good, but the method must accord.
tk
In this case, I do see and agree that the means do not justify the end....promoting Dorje Shugden's name in a way that will create more misunderstandings will not help. Tk's advice is extremely sound, i find, as it is also in accord with the Dharma. Why should we use methods that go against the Dharma to promote Dorje Shugden and prove the rumors right?
I find that this entire post represents this website here and what this website is doing and I am very proud to be a member here. We are not asking people to dump the Dalai Lama, but to actually look at the facts, and decide if they want to go with Dorje Shugden. Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden is not mutually exclusive and in fact, in the sadhana that my Guru has given me, I do the prayer to Dorje Shugden that was written by the 14th Dalai Lama. So it is not mutually exclusive.
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Thank you tk for putting the whole issue of HHDL vs DS in proper perspective! And I can't agree with you more!!
Whilst we do not agree with HHDL's decision of 'banning' the practise of Dorje Shugden, we will have to repect him as the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism. And despite all the negative actions took on by CTA following the ban, we can't deny that he had played a significant part in the spreading of Buddhism beyond the border of China and Tibet.
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Well said, Kurava!
If we cannot even endure hardships and trying times, then we will never commit to the Dharma and go all the way. Because every time something happens, it is enough to tear us away from the Dharma and make us totally unstable. Why? Because we are so dependent on everything external to us to move us forward or into any direction, for that matter.
Sometimes, we can even go through very trying times with our Guru - especially when we have done something wrong REPEATEDLy and the Guru has no choice but to use wrathful methods to wake us up and stop us in our path of destruction. So, because the Guru is wrathful we then run away and stop practice? We abandon everything???
IF we do, then we cannot really be that committed to Dharma in the first place.
The only thing we are committed to is "external factors" because we would only practice and like to practice when all "external factors" are in our favour.
All things external are just reflection of who we are inside.
I remember going through a very tough time with my Guru once and boy, did I feel completely dejected for all the things that I have done wrong. Ordinarily, I would have succumbed into my self-piteous ways and feel very sorry for myself. I would even console myself that I was so innocent and I should not need to go through this. But that inner dialogue lasted for about 5 minutes. After which I did realise that everything that I wanted or preferred was just solely designed to fulfill my own selfish needs. Especially, how I preferred people should act towards me, and even my Guru. I was very attached to the way I view things and people. But my Guru was so skillful in breaking down all those perceptions and delusions within me - despite me not liking one second of it.
After I realised that every single thing which my Guru was doing is really a teaching in itself, I began to focus on learning the lessons and not focus so much on what I was feeling or thinking. I wanted to rise above this and move forward.
I actually began to have more faith in my Guru after that whole experience although during I thought he was not very nice at all. After that whole experience, I began to see things and myself very differently. I just refuse to let anything or anyone stop me from going into Dharma wholeheartedly.
And really, the only person who has that kind of overwhelming power to stop us from our practice is ultimately, ourselves.
To me, Dharma is to make us better people and not to stay as we are or to continue as we are.
So, we can choose to rise or fall or even become embroiled with the whole samsaric drama - the choice is always with you. No one can stop - not really. No one ever could and ever will.
I do agree with this statement a lot. If we are unable to bear hardships, then what is the use of our Dharma practice? Being able to endure hardships, especially for the sake of the Dharma is something that is rare for practitioners of these days, where everything is just so convenient and nobody really has to work hard for anything. This is one of the features of the kaliyuga, where nobody does anything merely because everything is just so convenient and a little bit of hardships these days is more than enough to send ex practitioners bitching about their ex dharma center on the internet and to everyone they encounter. If those people that they have met dont know anything, they actually believe these people and agree with them that their ex Dharma center is bad and thus, the Dharma degenerates in that region. As much as we like to believe that people are not that weak, they are and they would give up Dharma if they encounter difficulties or they would not hesitate drop the Dharma and go for a psychiatrist that will not do much but heal the ego.
But really, is the Dharma really that not worth it to the point that it is okay to give it up whenever something bad happens? Is it really that useless for so many people to the point where they give up being Buddhist and throw away all their statues and books when something bad happens in their lives? Perhaps, everyone thinks that meditation and statues and prayers are a shortcut to getting the quick happiness that they want, without putting effort into it. Everyone wants it quick and easy these days, and without the effort but something like that does not really exist in reality. I would not give up Dharma even if the whole world turned against me, and I would not give up Dorje Shugden even if the Dalai Lama pleads me to stop. The only person in the world that can tell me to stop is my root Guru.
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I just think that we should just stick to Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice. He wrote it for the future audience as he already foresaw the conflict that would arise because of the Dalai Lama's ban on Dorje Shugden. He already knew what would happened with the ban of the Dalai Lama and he already gave a great advice of how to regard the Dalai Lama in this moment of crisis. Some people interpret this as a general Mahayana advice although Trijang Rinpoche was quite specific about how to regard the Dalai Lama, Panchen Lama and the Dalai Lama.
But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future.
pg 125 of Music Delighting An Ocean of Conquerors by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche
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I just think that we should just stick to Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice. He wrote it for the future audience as he already foresaw the conflict that would arise because of the Dalai Lama's ban on Dorje Shugden. He already knew what would happened with the ban of the Dalai Lama and he already gave a great advice of how to regard the Dalai Lama in this moment of crisis. Some people interpret this as a general Mahayana advice although Trijang Rinpoche was quite specific about how to regard the Dalai Lama, Panchen Lama and the Dalai Lama.
But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future.
pg 125 of Music Delighting An Ocean of Conquerors by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche
To me, that is a very clear prediction of the emergence of the ban. Trijang Rinpoche is a very highly attained master, so it is for sure that he has warned everyone about it. For all we know, it could be him who asked the Dalai Lama to do so after his passing to clear certain obstacles for the growth of the Dharma. We never know how enlightened beings work, and the appearance of this passage shows us that Trijang Rinpoche has already know that the ban would have taken place, and has provided us all with sound advice on what needs to be done at this time. This forum is in line with that advise, which is why it makes it very worthwhile and meritorious just by posting here alone as we are following Trijang Rinpoche's advice/instructions. It is very easy actually to go the polar directions of the whole issue, but to maintain middle ground in this way is not easy for anyone to do but those who can without a doubt will be able to gain results since it is after all, Trijang Rinpoche's instructions.
It does not sound at all like mahayana advice, but a direct instruction on how Dorje Shugden practitioners should handle this issue altogether. It is very clear and indicative from the way that he has put it. So what are we still waiting for?
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One thing that has helped me with this is thinking of how the great Lamas have handled this issue.
If we believe that every aspect of their life is a teaching, then how they handle this issue is a teaching as well.
I have not heard of one Lama say nasty things about any other Lama. My own teachers have not spoken harshly, and for me that is a teaching on how I should act.
Fully agreed with Losang_tenpa. I do not agreed with the ban but that does not mean I should personal attack HHDL or hope that any harm will happen to HHDL. Hatred and anger is not the way to go. Furthermore, Dorje Shugden had saved HHDL’s life earlier. I am sure Dorje Shugden would not want any harm to HHDL too.
We should follow what tk, this forum and DS.com ways to counter the ban! We promote Dorje Shudgen!! We show people the fact and information and let them understand more about Dorje Shudgen. The more people know about Dorje Shugden and learn the truth, more people will follow us as they know Dorje Shugden’s practice is not just fast and effective, he has an authentic lineage too!
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TK is not only wise but speaks in accord with dharma.
Buddhas advice had always been for us to not dwell on things which bring no benefit and to go for things which bring benefit.
The exhortation here is not to OVER-CRITICIZE .
It is not to stop you from expressing opinions. After we have done our analysis and given an opinion, we should move on to doing things that benefit us most. If DS practice had given us benefit, and our faith is strong, a ban like this may shake us momentarily but should not throw us away. Not especially when we have a very good angle to consider based on the larger picture principle. Moreover, enough is enough and we should not let these issue become a preoccupation and distract us from our path.
Thank you Kurava for this reminder. I used to spend a lot of time considering the merits of the "Bigger Picture" theory and wasted a lot of time constructing various arguments for and against the theory, all in my mind. Exercises such as those may have been exciting but in fact did very little to help lift the ban or help me in my spiritual development.
I still strongly disagree with the Dalai Lama's decision to ban the Shugden practice and I still feel the grief suffered by so many practitioners as the result of the ban . But I know I can create no benefit whatsoever by being angry and moreover I doubt if Dorje Shugden needs me to seek justice on his behalf. Come to think, I don't think a great enlightened Protector like Dorje Shugden is even bothered about justice being done to his name.
But that doesn't mean that I should just keep quiet about it. There is a big difference between writing against the ban because the idea of the ban, and the false reasons behind it offends my own mind, and writing against the ban because I see the benefit of doing so as a means of helping more people to see Dorje Shugden in the correct light. As as tk said earlier, to leverage on the publicity created by the ban to introduce Dorje Shugden into the lives of many.
The difference is in my motivation and if my motivation is Dharmic, there is much that I can write about without criticizing HHDL. There is so much to be said about the Dorje Shugden lineage and the great Masters who were Dorje Shugden's past reincarnations, which in themselves say so much to logically counter the lies said about the Protector.
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Furthermore, Dorje Shugden had saved HHDL’s life earlier. I am sure Dorje Shugden would not want any harm to HHDL too.
It's interesting you should say that because, indeed, whenever Dorje Shugden takes trance and is asked about the ban and this current situation, he answers always that we must be patient and that we must never criticize the Dalai Lama or any Lamas. This, if nothing else, is the sign of what a true protector he is. If this was a mere spirit, surely, "it" would have done everything it could to avenge what the dalai lama had done by banning him. But instead, Dorje Shugden reacts always with patience and kindliness, advising all his devotees never to speak harshly against the Dalai Lama but to have patience and bear the situation. In response to what has become a political situation, he returns to and teaches Dharma, advising his practitioners through the most Dharmic methods, always aligned to the teachings. Is this not the principle role of a Dharma Protector, after all? To preserve and uphold the Dharma teachings and ensure it is continued to be properly upheld and practiced?
If we follow this advice then, and do not criticize the Dalai Lama, act unkindly or react in harsh ways towards any lama, or any one, then we would be true reflections of the great protector that he is.
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Over-criticise or criticise stem from one thing: the motivation for that criticism. Whatever it is, it usually cannot be a good thing. People criticise for their own agendas – usually it is to put the lama down or start questioning the validity of his practices and teachings. Why would we want to do that?!
In some cases, it is due to ignorance which gives rise to fear. from fear, people do all kinds of actions to protect their egos and their positions even if it means hurting others. They think they are protecting others, but they are actually protecting their own ego. People who criticize others also are very insecure of their own Dharma practice and they think that by forcing others to tow in line, it helps reinforce their beliefs.
Yes, this action/speech is very damaging for several reasons:
1) Once you start criticising one lama, you set a precedent to be able to criticise another lama, and another lama and another lama… then what teachings are sacred anymore?
Another way of seeing this is, once we start criticizing just one lama, we criticize the rest, and criticize the Buddhas teachings as well because all the lamas teach the same thing, and all of them are teaching what the Buddha taught as well. So why criticize one lama? Might as well just give up Buddhism and be a new ager or an atheist.
2) imagine all those students you might affect from this criticism. The very lama that you dislike and are criticising is someone else’s root teacher who they have relied upon very strongly for many, many years. Imagine the potential doubt and negative thoughts you plant in THEIR minds which could turn them away from the teacher and the dharma. Somehow, it will link back to you and you face that karma of splitting someone from their dharma teacher or centre.
When they criticize, we have to remember that they do not care about the samaya of the students or their spiritual welfare. the only thing they care about is that they have more people that subscribe to their view and if these people do not subscribe to their view, then they are bad and evil. They dont care if they harm others with their actions at all. And they think they are being good buddhist when they go against the Buddhist teachings.
In essence, people who criticize other lamas do not practice the Dharma themselves and have 0 spiritual progress, usually. Would anyone want to end up like them? This is what we should ask ourselves when we watch people who criticize others and keep away from them. We are told to stay away from people who take us away from the Dharma and bad friends. People who criticize other lamas and spend all their time doing so is a perfect example.
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Yes, absolutely. Instead of slanders, physical protests etc that are negative, what admin suggested below are positive methods that could be applied for the popularity of Dorje Shugden.
I have read on other websites where negative comments were made but they do not provide solutions to the ban nor provide ways to counter the ban via positive actions.
Giving away brochures about Dorje Shugden (which can be downloaded from this website here: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/category/downloads/promotional/ (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/category/downloads/promotional/))
Help practitioners who wish to help the monks of Dorje Shugden monasteries (by financial means, or providing whatever they need to travel and stay at the monasteries).
Become pen pals of monks at Serpom or Shar Gaden Monasteries, or other Dorje Shugden monasteries.
Sponsor Dorje Shugden monasteries.
Find information about Dorje Shugden monasteries, centers and institutions. Share it on this website and on other websites everywhere to create awareness.
Post information on this website and on the forum that is relevant, educational and informational. This will educate the thousands of readers who visit this site and have a right to know what is happening.
Write educational articles and letters and send them into the Central Tibetan Administration, activists, Tibetan groups, NGOs etc.
Start your own Dorje Shugden center or practice group for people in your area.
Create educational videos and make them available on free portals like YouTube.
Share information online by being active on social media – Facebook, Twitter etc. are free portals which let you reach out to millions of people.
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In my opinion to sit and criticise serves no purpose. Verbally talking is not making any efforts to have the situation better.
Criticising HH Dalai Lama had been done for many years over the ban of Dorje Shugden worship and so far the Dalai Lama seem not to have made any constructive efforts to avert the division caused among Tibetan people on this issue.
Let us not spend too much time and effort in criticising but rather efforts to educate people why the Ban is unlawful and the accusations against Dorje Shugden is untrue.
The Shugden devotees must exercise their right to religious freedom of choice. Let the Ban be lifted.