Author Topic: Brief question about ORACLES...  (Read 9259 times)

Zhalmed Pawo

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Brief question about ORACLES...
« on: July 10, 2010, 11:18:52 PM »
In one thread in this wonderful Forum, there were some discussion about oracles; whether they are meaningful or useful in our Dharma-Practice. I was a somewhat skeptic, but some others were more than enthuisiastic. So, there was a dilemma, or sorts. Thereby, I made the following question:
_________________

Could somebody here please explain to me, why oracles are needed, in a Dharmic context?

While answering, please consider these points: Considering that the Buddha has taught the Dharma, and we can all find whatever we need (in a dharmic sense, not necessarily in a material sense), from those already existing Teachings, why would anyone need to consult an oracle? As the Buddha has given the Dharma, and that has been transmitted to us by the Sangha, especially our Lamas or Gurus, and is accessible through books, meditation and experience, what else one would need? If one has questions, out of not understanding, one can always consult the Buddha-Dharma, through either one's Guru, Sangha in general, or Dharma-scriptures, so where is the need for oracular instructions? If the oracle oraculates an enlightened Deity, the answers will naturally be the same as found in the Tripitaka and the Commentaries, as explained by the Sangha and the Guru, so in this case it would be needless to ask an oracle, and if the spirit that is oraculated is not enlightened, why ask him anything relating to the Practice, the Dharma? So where is the need for oracles, within a dharmic context? Of all the peoples in the world, only Tibetans seem to need a Dharma-Boost from oracles; the other traditional Buddhist nations do not seem to need any such observances.

So, all those who understand these oracle-things, please explain to me. If this cannot be explained, the only conclusion can be, that this need for oracularism is just a cultural thing of Tibetans, having nothing really to do with Dharma. And as you explain, please provide Sutra sources if possible. Protectors can be found in even the old Theravada Sutras, so I am not wondering about Protectors. Just oracles.


Thank you all, in advance,
ZP

___________

For some reason, nobody answered my questions, eventhough all the other issues were debated hotly. But yet, someone made a specific thread called Brilliant explanation on ORACLES! about those very "oraculary accepting" remarks, that pretty much preceded and caused my question, as if the poster would then prove something. (This new thread of course proved nothing, except the willingness of spreading uncontested propaganda, for it merely repeated the reasons for the existence of the question in the first place.) But now, ladies an gentlemen, here is the original question. Just read what is above...No need to read the propagada, against or for, this or that. Now here is a simple person-free question, or questions. I am sure you all can answer this or these, without reverting into a verbiose dharmoism. Just see, if you can answer. Easy, I'll say.

yours,
ZP

thaimonk

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Re: Brief question about ORACLES...
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2010, 12:01:52 AM »
In one thread in this wonderful Forum, there were some discussion about oracles; whether they are meaningful or useful in our Dharma-Practice. I was a somewhat skeptic, but some others were more than enthuisiastic. So, there was a dilemma, or sorts. Thereby, I made the following question:
_________________

Could somebody here please explain to me, why oracles are needed, in a Dharmic context?

While answering, please consider these points: Considering that the Buddha has taught the Dharma, and we can all find whatever we need (in a dharmic sense, not necessarily in a material sense), from those already existing Teachings, why would anyone need to consult an oracle? As the Buddha has given the Dharma, and that has been transmitted to us by the Sangha, especially our Lamas or Gurus, and is accessible through books, meditation and experience, what else one would need? If one has questions, out of not understanding, one can always consult the Buddha-Dharma, through either one's Guru, Sangha in general, or Dharma-scriptures, so where is the need for oracular instructions? If the oracle oraculates an enlightened Deity, the answers will naturally be the same as found in the Tripitaka and the Commentaries, as explained by the Sangha and the Guru, so in this case it would be needless to ask an oracle, and if the spirit that is oraculated is not enlightened, why ask him anything relating to the Practice, the Dharma? So where is the need for oracles, within a dharmic context? Of all the peoples in the world, only Tibetans seem to need a Dharma-Boost from oracles; the other traditional Buddhist nations do not seem to need any such observances.

So, all those who understand these oracle-things, please explain to me. If this cannot be explained, the only conclusion can be, that this need for oracularism is just a cultural thing of Tibetans, having nothing really to do with Dharma. And as you explain, please provide Sutra sources if possible. Protectors can be found in even the old Theravada Sutras, so I am not wondering about Protectors. Just oracles.


Thank you all, in advance,
ZP

___________

For some reason, nobody answered my questions, eventhough all the other issues were debated hotly. But yet, someone made a specific thread called Brilliant explanation on ORACLES! about those very "oraculary accepting" remarks, that pretty much preceded and caused my question, as if the poster would then prove something. (This new thread of course proved nothing, except the willingness of spreading uncontested propaganda, for it merely repeated the reasons for the existence of the question in the first place.) But now, ladies an gentlemen, here is the original question. Just read what is above...No need to read the propagada, against or for, this or that. Now here is a simple person-free question, or questions. I am sure you all can answer this or these, without reverting into a verbiose dharmoism. Just see, if you can answer. Easy, I'll say.

yours,
ZP


TK ANSWERED ALL YOUR QUESTIONS AND SOME MORE. READ IT. TK EVEN PUT UP A LINK FOR YOU TO READ FURTHER. GO DO YOUR HOMEWORK AND STOP ASKING AGAIN FOR EASY SUMMARY. IT IS A COMPLICATED SUBJECT AND BEING YOU HAVE ZERO BACKGROUND KNOWLEDGE, START FROM SCRATCH, LEARN UP AND THEN FORM OPINIONS.

PLEASE DO YOUR HOMEWORK AND READ UP. I DID AND IT HELPED ME ALOT. TK, WHOEVER YOU ARE, KEEP IT BLASTING.

http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1332


YOU WERE OFFERED THIS LINK. READ-IT HELPS.




thaimonk

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Re: Brief question about ORACLES...
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2010, 12:20:45 AM »
Just read what is above...No need to read the propagada, against or for, this or that.


Wrong choice of words. There is no PROPAGANDA HERE. That is your view. Not everyone's.

Sorry.

Go read up.

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Brief question about ORACLES...
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2010, 12:29:10 AM »
Dear thaimonk, the net'o'nyme called tk has not answered my simple questions. But perhaps you could please answer to even this:

At what point in my Lamrim-practice do I need an oracular teaching?

(Judging from the link you gave, you are a Joker. No matter, for me. In fact, the merrier. But let us keep the fun going, so please answer...)

thaimonk

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Re: Brief question about ORACLES...
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2010, 12:32:45 AM »
Dear thaimonk, the net'o'nyme called tk has not answered my simple questions. But perhaps you could please answer to even this:

At what point in my Lamrim-practice do I need an oracular teaching?

(Judging from the link you gave, you are a Joker. No matter, for me. In fact, the merrier. But let us keep the fun going, so please answer...)

BEFORE, DURING AND AFTER. SINCE DORJE SHUGDEN TAKES TRANCES IN ORACLES FOR THE LAST 400 YEARS, AND TRIJANG RINPOCHE CREATES THE ORACLES, MAYBE YOU SHOULD ASK DORJE SHUGDEN IN TRANCE HIMSELF.

I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU. IS TRIJANG RINPOCHE WRONG FOR ENCOURAGING ORACULAR PRACTICES?


vajralight

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Re: Brief question about ORACLES...
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2010, 08:20:54 AM »
Dear all,

Why argue so much ? If Geshe-la has his reasons for not using oracles, this if relevant for his students. If other teachers feel the need to use oracles, that is relevant for their students. Maybe just follow your own teacher/lama and respect others different views and ideas.

BTW Geshe-la believes the oracle system can and already is used for worldly purposes. He just  encourages his students to try and practise Lamrim,, Lojong and Mahamudra purely and create a connection with the Buddha's on a one to one basis without a need for oracles. This does not invalidate oracles, but there is a risk that people are possessed by a spirit pretending to be a Buddha/Dharma Protector.

Can't we respect each other ?

Vajra





honeydakini

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Re: Brief question about ORACLES...
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2010, 02:44:41 PM »

At what point in my Lamrim-practice do I need an oracular teaching?


This is my understanding:

At the heart of our practice remains Lamrim and lojong teachings, always, and a genuine teacher will always ensure that this is what we focus our practice on most strongly.

Just as Dharma protectors help to clear obstacles to our spiritual practice, oracles too help to "swiften" or "quicken" certain aspects on our path. An example: It could be a decision we have to make regarding a certain practice that someone should do to clear an immediate obstacle (e.g. financial, spirit disturbances, illnesses etc). I have always believe that if we have strong reliance and faith in our teachers, then listening to our teachers' advice would be enough to get us through a particular difficulty, as he would know the best advice for us. In certain cases though, we may not have access to our teacher (or we may not even have a teacher as is the case for many). In some cases also, students may not have enough faith in their teachers yet and would believe in "the gods" more than in their own teachers (for the time being.....)  Through oracular consultation (or divination), we can gain these answers quickly to expedite the process of making decisions pertinent to our spiritual practice.

This "saves time" from making the wrong decisions, leading to even more difficulty outcomes that would "waste time" from our practice.

The motivation throughout this process should always remain focused on the Lamrim. We may seek a divination or advice from an oracle regarding health, finances or spirit disturbances, but it should be with the motivation that by finding a solution to overcome this obstacle, we can then proceed more quickly on our spiritual path with less hindrances, have the resources and conducive conditions for focusing more strongly on the lamrim/ lojong and thereby to transform our mind and gain attainments. It shouldn't be that we seek an oracle's advice just to go make more money or find a husband (if so, then we don't need oracles for that, we can resort to any other "cheap" or lesser fortune telling method).

The oracles and divination are never the main focus of our practice, but rather serve as complementary aids (is that the right word?) to help us overcome immediate problems for the greater benefit of our spiritual practice. It is not that it is a compulsory practice, but we certainly cannot deny its benefits and help; just as thousands of great masters have also relied on them for hundreds of years. I would be the first to be very happy for someone who does not need to consult an oracle because his/her practice in the lamrim and lojong is strong enough to see them through all difficult phases and obstacles of their spiritual journey; but I too have also seen the benefit of receiving help from oracles under very difficult and urgent circumstances and cannot deny that they do have a place in helping many, many levels of beings out there.

crazycloud

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Re: Brief question about ORACLES...
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2010, 08:16:44 PM »
Dear all,

Why argue so much ? If Geshe-la has his reasons for not using oracles, this if relevant for his students. If other teachers feel the need to use oracles, that is relevant for their students. Maybe just follow your own teacher/lama and respect others different views and ideas.

yeah, VL this is very sensible. If Geshe-la (here I think you refer to Geshe Kelsang?) doesn't want oracles, he doesn't have to have them, and others can. I agree.
Quote
Can't we respect each other ?

One can really only speak for oneself, but I will go out on a limb and say that I believe ZP will go with me, if not I'm sure he will say so....

For many of us, the fact of our vocal disagreement is an indicator that we do respect our "opponents" if you will accept those terms for people who essentially are harmonious.

I actually do respect everyone on this forum, but I will attack what I see to be miserable views, and I will do so with the means at my disposal. For me, it's fun. I suggest others learn to enjoy it and stop trying to dictate what style of speech one should use. Otherwise, why join a forum for discussing? Get a few people you like and email your agreed upon views back and forth to each other.