Author Topic: Pay an Oracle to ask if Dorje Shugden can become our Yidam?  (Read 382 times)

Harold Musetescu

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Here is a conversation between Pastor Niral Patel and a man named Eric.

Here is a link to that page http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/ask-the-pastors

Quote
Hello Pastor Niral

I am writing you today to seek your assistance in contacting the Panglung Oracle.

My purpose is to have him be taken trance of by Dorje Shugden.

So dear readers remember that all it takes is MONEY for us to get Dorje Shugden to make himself our YIDAM.

While in trance I wish to ask Dorje Shugden to create the empowerment and sadhana for his Yidam practice.

Dorje Shugden did something similar with his "Dice Divination" via an "Oracle".

If you wish either you or Tsem Tulku could contact the Panglung Oracle about this most important matter.

What merit and blessing would occur to Tsem Tulku and his KFC if the Dorje Shugden's Yidam practice was created there.

Reply by Pastor Niral Patel
Dear Eric,

Please contact Kechara House to submit a formal request which will then be passed on. Note that such requests are traditionally accompanied with offerings. As the one requesting that such a trance takes place, you will also need to sponsor the event, including the extensive offerings made to the Buddhas and those offered to the deities once they take trance.

Please be aware that due to the Panglung Oracle’s busy schedule, once the request has been passed on, it will depend on the Panglung Oracle’s discretion as well as the location of where the Panglung Oracle is, the preparation, the assistants, etc. I hope this helps.

Thank you.
Unquote

Here is Pastor Patel telling a man to pay a small fortune to ask a question that is so important to all of us who follow Dorje Shugden.

A question that should and could be asked for free by Pastor Patel to the Panglung Oracle.

The Panglung Oracle lives at the "Kechara Forest Retreat" with in walking distance of Pastor Patel.

Eric is saying that the Panglung Oracle can be take trance of by Dorje Shugden and while in trance provide the world with his Yidam empowerment and sadhana practice.

You would think that Pastor Patel would run down to Panglung Ritroe and ask the Panglung Oracle to go into an immediate trance.

But you would be wrong.

Eric was told by Pastor Patel to send an email to Kechara House and ask how much all this would cost i.e. to the Buddhas and Dharamapalas involved.

I did not know they needed to be payed for their services?

Eric is also told he must pay for the services of the Oracle and his assistants.

REALLY?

Pastor Patel's answer makes no sense to me at all.

We are talking about Dorje Shugden becoming our "Official" Yidam and he is talking about MONEY.

REALLY???

lightning

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Re: Pay an Oracle to ask if Dorje Shugden can become our Yidam?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2018, 05:33:55 PM »
Yidam is basic of enlightenment, whereas dharmapala is basis of protection. They are different! Dun adulterate teachings! Dorje shugden cannot be a yidam, becos he functions as dharmapala. As mentioned as per guru puja. Consult your own guru for confirmation. Many will not accept your POV. Unless you want to spread to your own guru's fellow students i have no objection.

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Pay an Oracle to ask if Dorje Shugden can become our Yidam?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2018, 06:49:02 PM »
Hello

On the main page of dorjeshugden.com there was an approved article about Dorje Shugden as a Yidam.

The title is "Dharma Demystified - Dorje Shugden as a Yidam.

It was written on December 16, 2013 and it was published on this website after review by the persons running this site for H.E. Tsem Tulku.

The article states that Dorje Shugden can be made a Yidam and the process in do it.

So I guess your right and Tsem Tulku and this website are wrong.

Consult Tsem Tulku for confirmation that he is wrong.

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Pay an Oracle to ask if Dorje Shugden can become our Yidam?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2018, 10:51:46 PM »
Hello Lighting

Here's the link to the article about Dorje Shugden as a Yidam.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/dharma-demystified-dorje-shugden-as-a-yidam/

Here is an important part of that article.

(Quote)
Dorje Shugden as a Yidam
A Yidam is traditionally considered by practitioners to be higher than a Dharma Protector because attainments and enlightenment derived from engaging in a sadhana is the ultimate goal of any Buddhist practice. However, from the side of the practitioner, this does not mean that a Yidam is higher or more enlightened than a Dharma Protector.

Dorje Shugden is currently propitiated as a Dharma Protector and he is also the emanation of Manjushri, who is propitiated as a Yidam. From the side of the deity, he is enlightened whether he manifests as a Lama – Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, Yidam – Manjushri or Protector – Dorje Shugden.

There is no question of whether Dorje Shugden qualifies as a Yidam. For an enlightened mind, there is neither labels nor differing levels of enlightenment and so they are all equal in nature. Therefore, the distinction lies not in the deity itself but in the way the deity is propitiated. In other words, what separates a Yidam from a Dharma Protector is their differing role and function from the side of the practitioner and not the deity.

As mentioned earlier in the article, Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche propagated Dorje Shugden practice because he felt that our modern time calls for an extraordinarily swift and powerful Protector. Therefore, Dorje Shugden is the most suitable Protector of our time based upon his extraordinary strength and swiftness.

This is also the reason why Dorje Shugden would also be suitable to be meditated on as a Yidam. The same level of efficacy and swiftness would ensure that more practitioners would become attained through his practice. Due to his efficacy, Dorje Shugden would be quicker to bestow attainments than many of the other Yidams if he was to be propitiated as a Yidam.

Now, let us explore the reasons for Dorje Shugden’s efficacy and speed. The first reason is the fact that Dorje Shugden currently exists in a worldly form but with an enlightened mind and that means Dorje Shugden exists in the Nirmanakaya form or emanation body of Manjushri just like the Dalai Lama or Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen.

This also indicates that Dorje Shugden’s form exists within Samsara and has greater karma and affinity with the beings of this time. This was brought about because Dorje Shugden arose from the aspiration of a highly attained lama, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen when he passed away. Therefore at the final moment, the mind of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen took on the form of a powerful worldly being in order to fulfill this aspiration.

This is unique because most of the other Dharma Protectors and all of the Yidams are in the Sambhogakaya form or enjoyment body. This means that it would take far more merits to contact and receive assistance from them than it is with Dorje Shugden.

The other reason is the fact that Dorje Shugden is a relatively ‘new’ Protector having been only 300 years since he first arose. Therefore, a new Protector like Dorje Shugden would have a greater karma and affinity with the practitioners of this time when compared to the other Protectors. Some Protectors are not propitiated anymore because their time and karma have passed. So, the Protectors assume different forms to benefit sentient beings.

At present, Dorje Shugden is propitiated as a Dharma Protector but one can meditate upon Dorje Shugden as a Yidam as well if a lama composes the necessary texts. The lama needs to compose the initiation text, sadhana and commentary in order for Dorje Shugden to be regarded as a Yidam.

The previous Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche was known to have composed a sadhana to Vajrayogini and its commentary that is widely in use today. Since the other great sadhanas were composed by attained lamas of the past, therefore, an attained lama like Pabongka Rinpoche or Trijang Rinpoche could also compose the initiation text, sadhana and commentary on how to meditate on Dorje Shugden as a Yidam. Interestingly, Dorje Shugden would be the first Yidam to be in a worldly form.

Having Dorje Shugden propitiated as a Yidam would prove to be very beneficial for the growth of the Dharma because we live in a time of degeneration where attained practitioners and masters are very few and far in between and people have little time for Dharma. Therefore, if Dorje Shugden is propitiated as a Yidam, it would help many practitioners to quickly develop spiritual attainments. What remains now is for a sincere practitioner to make the request to a qualified lama – a request that will benefit the world once it comes to fruition.
(Unquote)

Maybe you now need to check with "Your Guru" about his teachings on Dorje Shugden is not a Yidam?

Or maybe "Your Guru" is right and His Eminence Tsem Tulku is WRONG.

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Pay an Oracle to ask if Dorje Shugden can become our Yidam?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2018, 11:08:07 PM »
Hello again Lightning

I went on Tsem Tulku's website and I went to "Ask a Question".

I asked an "Ordained Pastor" on December 29, 2015 if Dorje Shugden could be a "Yidam".

Here is his answer,

(Quote)
Question asked by Harold Musetescu
DEC 29, 2015
I just ask a question below about could Dorje Shugden be my complete practice. I had also asked in the past if he could be my yidam practice and you told me no. On dorjeshugen.com please type in "A pray by he current reincarnation of Drakpa Gyalsten" dated May 25,2013. In his prayer the opening line of the 6th paragraph he states "Your as my BUDDHA, my YIDAM, my GURU, my PROTECTOR". If the current reincarnation of Dorje Shugden see Dorje Shugen as a BUDDHA, YIDAM, GURU and PROTECTOR" should not we his followers see him as that also. Please ask H.E. Tsem Tulku if he could personally answer this most serious revelation by the current reincarnation of Dorje Shugden. I don't think that there can be a higher authority on what Dorje Shugden can manifest as then then his current reincarnation.

Reply by pastor
Dear Harold Musetescu,

Since Dorje Shugden is a enlightened being he can be relied upon as a Yidam. This is because he abides in great bliss and emptiness. These two are just some of the qualities of a fully enlightened Buddha.
(Unquote)

Here is the link to that page,

http://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/pastorquestion/harold-musetescu#comments

So Lightning here is another article this one by a "Pastor" at Tsem Rinpoche's Kechara Forest Retreat".

The Pastor states that I don't have to wait for Dorje Shugden to be officially declared a "Yidam".

I or should I say we can all immediately practice Dorje Shugden as our Yidam.

Of course I, the Pastor and His Eminence Tsem Tulku could by wrong and you and "Your Guru" could be right. ::) :o




Harold Musetescu

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Re: Pay an Oracle to ask if Dorje Shugden can become our Yidam?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2018, 11:24:40 PM »
Hello Lighting

Here is another link to an article on dorjeshugden.com

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/prayers/dorje-shugden-prayers/a-prayer-by-the-current-incarnation-of-tulku-drakpa-gyeltsen/

It was written on May 25,2013 and it is a prayer written by the current incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen.

(Quote)
Prayer by the Current Incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen
Posted on May 25, 2013 in Dorje Shugden Prayers · 10,768 Views · 16 Comments
........You are my Buddha, my yidam, my Guru, my protector and my
Complete source of blessings........composed by the current incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen
May 25th, 2013
(Unquote)

If the current incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen states that Dorje Shugden is "my Yidam" who are we to say that he is wrong.

Remember that this article was "Officially" posted on this website that is run by His Eminence Tsem Tulku.

But maybe Tsem Tulku and the current incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen are wrong and YOU and YOUR GURU are RIGHT. :o :P 8)

Questionable

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Re: Pay an Oracle to ask if Dorje Shugden can become our Yidam?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2018, 07:29:03 PM »
Harold, does the deity exist within the mind or outside it?

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Pay an Oracle to ask if Dorje Shugden can become our Yidam?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2018, 07:41:56 PM »
Hello Grigoris

Everyone, Grigoris is one of the "Global Moderators" at Dharma Wheel.

He hates all of us followers of Dorje Shugden.

If you try to post any positive comments about Dorje Shugen he throws you off the site.

His Lama is know by the nickname of the "Buddha of Las Vegas".

But every time "Grig the Greek" throws me out I some how always get back in.

Is your favorite movie "Les Miserable".

If it is I know what character I play and what character you play and what happens to him at the end of the movie.

You are a sad, sad little man.

 8) 8) 8) 8)

Questionable

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Re: Pay an Oracle to ask if Dorje Shugden can become our Yidam?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2018, 08:11:09 PM »
Hello Grigoris

Everyone, Grigoris is one of the "Global Moderators" at Dharma Wheel.

He hates all of us followers of Dorje Shugden.

If you try to post any positive comments about Dorje Shugen he throws you off the site.

His Lama is know by the nickname of the "Buddha of Las Vegas".

But every time "Grig the Greek" throws me out I some how always get back in.

Is your favorite movie "Les Miserable".

If it is I know what character I play and what character you play and what happens to him at the end of the movie.

You are a sad, sad little man.

 8) 8) 8) 8)

Not quite, I was suspended for mentioning Shugden by Greg(yes, I understand he can be such a hypocrite over Shugden).  However, that gives you no right to assume whom your vajra siblings are and delude yourself with hallucinations that we are all anti-Shugdenpas.  Either way, I am not even an adult nor am I even Greek(I shall give thee a hint: I am he who is to the east, yet within the west).  Try again in finding out who I am(or you can wise up, stop wasting your time in spamming these forums with your anger, and begin practicing Shugden properly and represent us correctly).

Now that's said, tell me, is the deity within the mind or is it out?

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Pay an Oracle to ask if Dorje Shugden can become our Yidam?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2018, 08:23:35 PM »
 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Pay an Oracle to ask if Dorje Shugden can become our Yidam?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2018, 08:39:48 PM »
Harold, does the deity exist within the mind or outside it?


Greg the Greek this you patented favorite line you have used at Dharma Wheel.

Over the years you would ask me and others this insanely moronic question.

Dude it's a give away and now I scored on you.

Go back to Dharma Wheel and keep throwing people off it.

Your insane love desire for me must stop. :o :o :o :o :o

 8)


Questionable

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Re: Pay an Oracle to ask if Dorje Shugden can become our Yidam?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2018, 08:52:52 PM »
Harold, does the deity exist within the mind or outside it?


Greg the Greek this you patented favorite line you have used at Dharma Wheel.

Over the years you would ask me and others this insanely moronic question.

Dude it's a give away and now I scored on you.

Go back to Dharma Wheel and keep throwing people off it.

Your insane love desire for me must stop. :o :o :o :o :o

 8)
You're right that I got this question from Grigoris when I was looking through the forums, however, I am not he.  I will give another hint: I am of the opposite essence to which is the essence of Tsem Rinpoche's yidam and have not passed into a long life yet, for I am less than half of half the maximum span of the beings of the manusya realm.
Anyhow, answer the question.  Has your answer changed?

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Pay an Oracle to ask if Dorje Shugden can become our Yidam?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2018, 09:19:07 PM »
I am so sorry but I will no longer answer anything you post.

I can not and will not help feed into your sick obsessions about me.

Following me from Dharma Wheel to here is really sick. :o :o :o :o

I have contact the your Lama the "Buddha of Las Vegas" about your mental health issues.

Questionable

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Re: Pay an Oracle to ask if Dorje Shugden can become our Yidam?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2018, 09:29:47 PM »
I am so sorry but I will no longer answer anything you post.

I can not and will not help feed into your sick obsessions about me.

Following me from Dharma Wheel to here is really sick. :o :o :o :o

I have contact the your Lama the "Buddha of Las Vegas" about your mental health issues.
Once again, I am not Grigoris.  I am a girl, not a man.  I will put it as this: your false accusations and delusions are already making you appear as a fool in this forum.  Good day.

Questionable

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Re: Pay an Oracle to ask if Dorje Shugden can become our Yidam?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2018, 06:42:51 PM »
Hello Lighting

Here's the link to the article about Dorje Shugden as a Yidam.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/dharma-demystified-dorje-shugden-as-a-yidam/

Here is an important part of that article.

(Quote)
Dorje Shugden as a Yidam
A Yidam is traditionally considered by practitioners to be higher than a Dharma Protector because attainments and enlightenment derived from engaging in a sadhana is the ultimate goal of any Buddhist practice. However, from the side of the practitioner, this does not mean that a Yidam is higher or more enlightened than a Dharma Protector.

Dorje Shugden is currently propitiated as a Dharma Protector and he is also the emanation of Manjushri, who is propitiated as a Yidam. From the side of the deity, he is enlightened whether he manifests as a Lama – Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, Yidam – Manjushri or Protector – Dorje Shugden.

There is no question of whether Dorje Shugden qualifies as a Yidam. For an enlightened mind, there is neither labels nor differing levels of enlightenment and so they are all equal in nature. Therefore, the distinction lies not in the deity itself but in the way the deity is propitiated. In other words, what separates a Yidam from a Dharma Protector is their differing role and function from the side of the practitioner and not the deity.

As mentioned earlier in the article, Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche propagated Dorje Shugden practice because he felt that our modern time calls for an extraordinarily swift and powerful Protector. Therefore, Dorje Shugden is the most suitable Protector of our time based upon his extraordinary strength and swiftness.

This is also the reason why Dorje Shugden would also be suitable to be meditated on as a Yidam. The same level of efficacy and swiftness would ensure that more practitioners would become attained through his practice. Due to his efficacy, Dorje Shugden would be quicker to bestow attainments than many of the other Yidams if he was to be propitiated as a Yidam.

Now, let us explore the reasons for Dorje Shugden’s efficacy and speed. The first reason is the fact that Dorje Shugden currently exists in a worldly form but with an enlightened mind and that means Dorje Shugden exists in the Nirmanakaya form or emanation body of Manjushri just like the Dalai Lama or Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen.

This also indicates that Dorje Shugden’s form exists within Samsara and has greater karma and affinity with the beings of this time. This was brought about because Dorje Shugden arose from the aspiration of a highly attained lama, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen when he passed away. Therefore at the final moment, the mind of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen took on the form of a powerful worldly being in order to fulfill this aspiration.

This is unique because most of the other Dharma Protectors and all of the Yidams are in the Sambhogakaya form or enjoyment body. This means that it would take far more merits to contact and receive assistance from them than it is with Dorje Shugden.

The other reason is the fact that Dorje Shugden is a relatively ‘new’ Protector having been only 300 years since he first arose. Therefore, a new Protector like Dorje Shugden would have a greater karma and affinity with the practitioners of this time when compared to the other Protectors. Some Protectors are not propitiated anymore because their time and karma have passed. So, the Protectors assume different forms to benefit sentient beings.

At present, Dorje Shugden is propitiated as a Dharma Protector but one can meditate upon Dorje Shugden as a Yidam as well if a lama composes the necessary texts. The lama needs to compose the initiation text, sadhana and commentary in order for Dorje Shugden to be regarded as a Yidam.

The previous Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche was known to have composed a sadhana to Vajrayogini and its commentary that is widely in use today. Since the other great sadhanas were composed by attained lamas of the past, therefore, an attained lama like Pabongka Rinpoche or Trijang Rinpoche could also compose the initiation text, sadhana and commentary on how to meditate on Dorje Shugden as a Yidam. Interestingly, Dorje Shugden would be the first Yidam to be in a worldly form.

Having Dorje Shugden propitiated as a Yidam would prove to be very beneficial for the growth of the Dharma because we live in a time of degeneration where attained practitioners and masters are very few and far in between and people have little time for Dharma. Therefore, if Dorje Shugden is propitiated as a Yidam, it would help many practitioners to quickly develop spiritual attainments. What remains now is for a sincere practitioner to make the request to a qualified lama – a request that will benefit the world once it comes to fruition.
(Unquote)

Maybe you now need to check with "Your Guru" about his teachings on Dorje Shugden is not a Yidam?

Or maybe "Your Guru" is right and His Eminence Tsem Tulku is WRONG.


Is Palden Lhamo a yidam?  Answer that first.