Author Topic: Did the Dalai Lama call the 16th Karmapa a liar?: Embracing non-sectarianism  (Read 3879 times)


  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 464
    • Email
In the book, The False Dalai Lama, the Dalai Lama is quoted as saying"so Karmapa Rinpoche, I think he mislead people a little bit, and that made me a little sad."
  Some people follow Karmapa, some people follow the Dalai Lama and some people follow other lamas in the 4 main Vajrayana schools of Buddhism.  I wish here to open discussion about how it is that we can appreciate one another, still remain in our respective schools, and actually embrace non-sectarianism by keeping our lineage transmissions pure; that is, to listen to what our lamas say regarding our own practice, but try very hard to respect the practice of others, including not interfering with their practices, shunning them, or upholding apartheid.   

There is sometimes in Buddhism the tendency toward thinking our lama is the best, not just for ourselves, but for everyone else as well.  And this is understandable; after all we love our lama and want all living beings to have the good fortune we have had in meeting with and studying with him.  However, the Buddha of course manifests in many emanations to help beings with different kinds of karma.  So, for many Gelugpas, they have come to rely on the Dalai Lama.  I rejoice for anyone who loves their spiritual guide and sees him as a Buddha.  Karma Kagyus have been relying on the Karmapa for 300 years longer than the Dalai Lama's line even began.  This is not to say one is better than the other, but is just to remind people that the Karmapas have never historically been chosen by Gelugpas, and especially not by Dalai Lamas, as the Karmapa line is the oldest tulku lineage in Tibet.
  For me, I have always loved the Karmapa,and that is due to whatever (excellent!) karma it is that makes beings have the fortunate karma to have met and trusted Karmapa. Now, I do understand that other people feel about their various gurus just as I feel about Karmapa.  So, if some people like the Dalai Lama, that is fine; maybe they have a closer connection with that particular lama.  I never felt much connection or pull toward the Gelugpas, until I met some Shugden lamas.  I also love Dorje Shugden.
  Now, sometimes, lamas either disagree or give the appearance of disagreeing, in the case that they are both Buddhas.  Are the various lamas all Buddhas?  I have pointed out in other posts that only full Buddhas can really be sure who is a Buddha;also relying on the argument that this person is a Buddha because the other person who is recognized as a Buddha has a similar circular logic to it.  I for instance may believe one of the Karmapas is Karmapa, but in reality one recognition could be Karmapa and the other Gampopa or Milarepa and I wouldn't definitely know. So, when someone tells me I have to believe something because so and so is this Buddha or that Buddha, I have to remind you that there is no way to really prove which Buddha is which, and nothing wrong with people having different lamas.  In fact, it's really good, since different beings have different karmic dispositions. So both Karmapas and the Dalai Lama could all be Chenrezigs; or not, I can't really claim it one way or the other, nor do I honestly think I know one way or the other.
   However, I don't think I should have to believe the Gelugpa one is the Buddha and the other ones aren't;or that the Gelugpa one is at all,  nor do I have to do what the Gelugpa one wants about the Karmapa or about Dorje Shugden.  I really sincerely wish that Buddhists would become open minded enough to realize that other people's spiritual guides need not be policed away; if you think I am non-virtuous for not believing what a non-Shugden Gelugpa lama says, well, that's silly.  Just because I don't have the same lama as someone else doesn't make me non-virtuous.  If we would pay attention to the Buddha, just by saying a prayer we are not non-virtuous; if we view a spiritual guide as a Buddha, then we get the blessings of the Buddha; I view Dorje Shugden and one of the Karmapas as Buddhas.  So, I get the blessings of the Buddhas, not sent to the lower realms for 'ghost worshiping,' as some have mistakenly believed.  Some people see the Dalai Lama as a Buddha, so they get the blessings of the Buddha too.  There is no problem there.
  Now, in the event that any of our spiritual guides, or people talking supposedly on behalf of our spiritual guides, encourages us to remove one another's practice from the earth, or gives the appearance of promoting intolerance, then we can of course, still seeing him/her as a Buddha, argue with them.  Really, the Buddha said that we should examine his teachings as we would gold in the market.  He never asked us for blind faith; likewise, even if our spiritual guide says something that doesn't seem right, we can say so.  If he is right and a Buddha, we will gain realizations; if someone else tells us, 'well these people are saying bad prayers.  Therefore they are bad and going to the lower realms.  Therefore, we should compassionately end their connection that would lead them to the lower realms.  Therefore, we will wipe their practice off the earth, or failing that, wipe them off the earth.  Really, we are doing them a favor,' then please understand that people have been confused into intolerance for kalpas; if really your spiritual guide says this, then perhaps try arguing with him.  Friends, our spiritual guides should not contradict Buddha.  In reality, I think if we argue with them, we will end up with them directing our own practice, and we could focus on our own practice, rather than trying to stop others from practicing.
So below is an example of when the Dalai Lama basically says that the 16th Karmapa is a liar; I think you can understand that if the Gelugpa lama doesn't like my spiritual guide or at least gives that appearance, that I will ignore that particular person/emanation of Buddha and rely on the one I think more likely to be leading me (the Karmapa).  So, please understand it is very possible that any two given lamas are Buddhas; they can give whatever appearance, and some go study with one and some with others; since it is important for beings to have a close connection with their spiritual guide, the Buddhas emanate in many forms to help us; furthermore, Buddha has been compared to a physician, some people have to go different types of doctors depending on what is wrong with them.
  Please, let's let the Dorje Shugden practitioners do their practice and treat them as equals and humans; and let's leave the Kagyus to it when recognizing their own tulkus.  Please, let's keep politics out of Buddhism.
  Om mani padme hung.  May all living beings be happy.

The expanded context of the above mentioned quote is below:
  Quote from the Dalai Lama, "so Karmapa Rinpoche, I think he mislead people a little bit, and that made me a little sad."

 In an interview the Dalai Lama has talked of his relationship with
the Sixteenth Karmapa:
‘ “On a personal level, still old friends; no problem. But as to
the Tibetan community and the politics, a little bit of doubt,
a little distance …” The Karmapa, he went on, had refused to
contribute to the booklet for independence. “And later, I heard
that in talking to some of his centres in Europe and America
he said the Tibetan freedom struggle is politics, and that as
spiritual practitioners they should not be involved.”
‘ “… So Karmapa Rinpoche, I think perhaps he misled
people a little bit, and that made me a little sad …
” ’283