Author Topic: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso  (Read 14017 times)

Mana

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The Dorje Shugden practitioners around the world owe quite alot to Ven Geshe Kelsang. He with a good motivation spent so much to have organized international protests to let the Dalai Lama know the ban is not correct. Geshe-la and his people were very organized, committed and worked tremendously hard to help the world realize the rights of religious practice were removed from Shugden practitioners. Geshe-la recieved so much flack, bad press, accusations and bad reputation for the sake of Shugden practitioners which he did not care being a true Kadampa Geshe like Langri Thangpa. We were all inspired by Geshe-la's guru devotion and genuine hard work to propagate the sacred Buddhadharma all over the world.

We at this website www.dorjeshugden.com sincerely rejoice in Geshe Kelsang's deeds and we offer our prayers for his long life, continued good works and his wishes may be fulfilled. We have always had profound respect for Geshe Kelsang.

Mana

What we are expressing here is short and no way justify the amount of praise Geshe Kelsang deserves. But it is our true feelings and sincere appreciaton for the incomparable master Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.

Galen

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2012, 11:34:28 AM »
Yes, Ven Geshe Kelsang really did maintained his loyalty to his guru and continued to spread Dorje Shugden in the west, especially in Europe where his centre is. He did not care of the ban, the discrimination and the accusations because he stayed true to his teachings.

He and all his sangha members have tirelessly promort DS around the world through his books and the yearly Spring Festival in UK does attract heaps and throngs of practitioners and students.

We, DS practitioners, does owe Geshe a lot and we should do more to support his movement so that the ban would be lifted earlier.

DharmaSpace

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2012, 01:08:23 PM »
His books are really amazing stuff very contemporary and also presented whereby it is easy reading for the modern people. Hope Geshe-la will live long to spread the doctrine of Lama Tsongkhapa.
The many centers all over the world is definitely a thorn in CTA's side, I mean NKT's centers are all over the world, whereas how many countries can CTA set up a diplomatic mission all over the world. Hope NKT does more and more to make CTA more and more uncomfortable!

shugdenprotect

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2012, 03:01:24 PM »
Thank you Mana for reminding us to practice gratitude!

Thank you Geshe Kelsang Gyatso for having the compassion to be one of the leading pioneer members heading the movement to lift the ban on Dorje Shugden!

If we ever thought that the work we are doing for Lord Dorje Shugden today is hard, we ought to think again. The commitment, effort, perseverance etc. that Geshe-la and his students had to put into CREATING the awareness, understanding and practice is so much more. It is through their effort that we have the chance to “join in the band wagon” and contribute to the cause of ending the ban against Dorje Shugden.

I agree with Galen that we should be more effective and efficient in adding to the momentum that was created by Geshe-la as an expression of our gratitude. We have very good examples to look up to including the team of www.dorjeshugden.com who skillfully developed and nurtured a resourceful and active website and forum community. Through this internet space, so much information and news about Dorje Shugden is made available to the entire world: complimenting and enhancing the work started by Geshe-la! With accurate information to curb ignorance about Dorje Shugden, our Protector is given the springboard to catapult into many more mind streams. So, we can play our role to leverage the benefit of this platform by posting actively and getting more people engaged with www.dorjeshugden.com

As we are speaking of Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, I would humbly add that there are 2 of Geshe-la's books that are great reads: Heart Jewel (all about our beloved Dorje Shugden!) and Eight Verses of Mind Transformation. These are such well written materials that are thoughtfully structured to ease understanding and the flow of the teachings is precisely expressed making it suitable for beginners. So, do look out for these books when you next drop by a book store!

dsiluvu

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2012, 03:31:24 PM »
I really salute Geshela for his bravery and courage in being one of the very few Lama's who really gave his life in spreading the Dharma and who dares to openly practise what his Guru gave him - Dorje Shugden :)))

I salute also to Geshela's students also and their devotion. The teacher may be great but it is the great devoted students who are like the 1000 arms of the Buddha who helps tirelessly in making the Guru's work spread in to all directions. Well done guys. You are an inspiration to many.

May Geshela's work continues to spread and may the voices of suppression be heard, may the unethical ban on Dorje Shugden be lifted and may there be real peace, harmony and unity in everyone Tibetans and non...for true FREEDOM IS FREEDOM OF CHOICE. And we choose to practise Dorje Shugden :)
 

Vajraprotector

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2012, 03:51:10 PM »
Geshe Kelsang's books/learning programmes are great resources for modern practitioners as they are modern, clear, simple to follow.

Many great masters have written forewards for his books, including Kyabje Ling Rinpoche, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, and the Dalai Lama himself! Kyabje Ling Rinpoche refers to Geshe Kelsang as ‘this most precious Spiritual Guide’ while Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche refers to him as ‘The excellent expounder, the great Spiritual Master Kelsang Gyatso …’. We are fortunate that Geshe Kelsang's passion in promoting the lineage and practice caused the rise of so many Kadampa centres.

I believe Geshe Kelsang's stand in the Dorje Shugden matter is the same as this website, which was clearly written in his letter to the Editor in Chief of The WAshington Times in 2002:

"We are not against the Dalai Lama personally and never have been but we previously simply requested him to stop his ban of Dorje Shugden worship; this was a request for the basic human right of religious freedom. At the same time we also publicly clarified what is the true nature and function of this popular Buddhist deity. However in October 1998 we decided to completely stop being involved in this Shugden issue because we realized that in reality this is a Tibetan political problem and not the problem of Buddhism in general or the NKT."

I do hope his students continue to uphold this stand so that NKT will not suffer more bad press about being against the Dalai Lama.

WisdomBeing

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2012, 04:37:40 PM »
While I do respect Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso very much, there are a couple of issues which I wish he would reconsider.

Firstly, I do wish that he would embrace the Tulku system. I just don’t understand how he can reject the tulku system when that means that the NKT would be rejecting the incarnation of his own root Guru, HH Trijang Rinpoche. Also, it means that NKT does not recognise the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen which is illogical when NKT’s core is Dorje Shugden. How can they ignore these two critical incarnations? I can understand that he thinks Westerners may not be receptive to incarnations but I’m fine with it and a lot of my friends are. In fact, we’re quite intrigued by the incarnations.

Secondly, I wish the NKT would also recognise the oracular system as it is an amazing opportunity to communicate directly with Dorje Shugden. I don’t understand why Geshe Kelsang Gyatso chose to ignore the role of oracles especially when his own uncle was one. I know they fell out but surely Geshe Kelsang Gyatso can rise above it all.

I remember reading that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso discourages oracles and tulkus because it can be subject to abuse for worldly reasons, especially after Geshela passes on. However, if the tulku and oracle systems have survived over so many centuries, I think they will surely survive the 21st century too.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Zach

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2012, 07:09:35 PM »
While I do respect Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso very much, there are a couple of issues which I wish he would reconsider.

Firstly, I do wish that he would embrace the Tulku system. I just don’t understand how he can reject the tulku system when that means that the NKT would be rejecting the incarnation of his own root Guru, HH Trijang Rinpoche. Also, it means that NKT does not recognise the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen which is illogical when NKT’s core is Dorje Shugden. How can they ignore these two critical incarnations? I can understand that he thinks Westerners may not be receptive to incarnations but I’m fine with it and a lot of my friends are. In fact, we’re quite intrigued by the incarnations.

Secondly, I wish the NKT would also recognise the oracular system as it is an amazing opportunity to communicate directly with Dorje Shugden. I don’t understand why Geshe Kelsang Gyatso chose to ignore the role of oracles especially when his own uncle was one. I know they fell out but surely Geshe Kelsang Gyatso can rise above it all.

I remember reading that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso discourages oracles and tulkus because it can be subject to abuse for worldly reasons, especially after Geshela passes on. However, if the tulku and oracle systems have survived over so many centuries, I think they will surely survive the 21st century too.

Geshe-la wants to focus on the essence of Dharma rather then cultral additions like Tulkus and oracles, Just because the NKT doesnt recognise Tulkus within its own it doesnt mean that they disavow the authenticity of recognised Incarnations. Dorje Shugden personally composed Geshe-la's longlife prayer so the relationship is very close but again oracles are not used because of various reasons it doesnt invalidate them, Geshe-la has said he will be reborn among his disciples and practice the very training programes he has set out in his next life will he have a fancy title and make a song and dance about it, I very much doubt it the greatness of a teacher doesnt depend on their title or status but in their ability to convey the message and demonstrate  the example. We do things differently because we are not Tibetan Buddhists.

Lineageholder

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2012, 07:15:40 PM »
You can download Geshe Kelsang's latest book, Modern Buddhism, the path of compassion and wisdom free from this link:

http://emodernbuddhism.com/download-free-modern-buddhism-ebooks.html

Enjoy!

Mana

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2012, 10:35:05 PM »
Geshe-la wants to focus on the essence of Dharma rather then cultral additions like Tulkus and oracles, Just because the NKT doesnt recognise Tulkus within its own it doesnt mean that they disavow the authenticity of recognised Incarnations. Dorje Shugden personally composed Geshe-la's longlife prayer so the relationship is very close but again oracles are not used because of various reasons it doesnt invalidate them, Geshe-la has said he will be reborn among his disciples and practice the very training programes he has set out in his next life will he have a fancy title and make a song and dance about it, I very much doubt it the greatness of a teacher doesnt depend on their title or status but in their ability to convey the message and demonstrate  the example. We do things differently because we are not Tibetan Buddhists.

1. I like the part which says "Just because NKT doesn't recognize Tulkus within it's own doesn't mean that they disavow the authenticity of recognized incarnations."

This is very good. Just because NKT doesn't recognize in no way makes Tulkus not authentic or not useful. NKT has their way to approach things and it works for them and it does not mean other ways are wrong. So if others wish to recognize, authenticate, trust, believe and follow the tulku system is fine. That is very good because this line of thought recognizes different approaches are necessary for different circumstances. All is fine then.

2. "Dorje Shugden personally composed Geshe-la's long life prayer so the relationship is very close but again oracles are not used because of various reasons it doesnt invalidate them, Geshe-la has said he will be reborn among his disciples and practice the very training programes he has set out in his next life."

Again oracles are not used so it does not invalidate them. That is good. In the past NKT did use oracles otherwise how did they get the long life prayer for Geshe La composed by Shugden. Of course they used oracles. The fact the long life prayer all NKT students recites for Geshe-la's holy long life is something from an oracle in trance of Shugden. If oracles were not valid, NKT would have discarded this long life prayer for Geshe-la. So oracles were useful for NKT at one time. And even now having this wonderful long life prayer used by all NKT for Geshe-la shows the blessings bestowed by having this oracle tradition. NKT may not use oracles now to contact Shugden, but it does not mean others like Shar Gaden and Serpom who rely on oracles are wrong. It is according to circumstances whether we wish to use them or not. Both using and not using is fine.

I like the part that Geshe-la already prepared for his future life saying he will be born among his students. It shows he has gained tantric control of his future incarnations. Rejoice. I think it will be beautiful for him to reincarnate among his own in his own centre again. Then again, if the incarnation returns and it leaks out so and so is Geshe-la's supreme mind incarnation (tulku) inevitable a big fanfare will happen. And this boy will be treated special because it is NKT's holy teacher returning. Everyone will show respect. When Geshe-la returns, he will not resemble other children at all. He will stand out automatically prompting belief so and so is Geshe-la and Geshe Kelsang Tulku is back. When Geshe-la returns as a young child to NKT, then automatically he is a Tulku and will be revered.

Either way, 'officially' recognized or not, this young Geshe-la tulku will not resemble other children. Even without 'official' recognition, when everyone believes this child to be Geshe-la, he will automatically be a tulku (Maybe even an oracle might be consulted to confirm..of course time will tell :) ;)). He will be special and he will stand out. He must. Extraordinary beings have a natural affinity for dharma, dharma learning and understanding faster than others hence they are tulkus. Beings who have powerful seeds from previous lives opening and manifesting to benefit others.

Well let's not talk about Geshe-la's incarnation now so much as it is not auspicious. He is here, alive and well and may he live another 1,000 years turning the wheel for so many. For sure he is an attained being.

Mana

hope rainbow

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2012, 10:35:31 AM »
The western world and the world is very fortunate to have Geshe Kelsang Gyatso to present the Holy Dharma to them in ways that are appropriate and efficient.
In fact, the NKT grew to be more than a Dharma organisation for the Westerners, it went global.

I understand better now the reasons also for which Geshe Kelsang Gyatso does not authorize oracles and tulku systems within NKT.

Galen

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2012, 05:42:23 PM »
While I do respect Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso very much, there are a couple of issues which I wish he would reconsider.

Firstly, I do wish that he would embrace the Tulku system. I just don’t understand how he can reject the tulku system when that means that the NKT would be rejecting the incarnation of his own root Guru, HH Trijang Rinpoche. Also, it means that NKT does not recognise the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen which is illogical when NKT’s core is Dorje Shugden. How can they ignore these two critical incarnations? I can understand that he thinks Westerners may not be receptive to incarnations but I’m fine with it and a lot of my friends are. In fact, we’re quite intrigued by the incarnations.

Secondly, I wish the NKT would also recognise the oracular system as it is an amazing opportunity to communicate directly with Dorje Shugden. I don’t understand why Geshe Kelsang Gyatso chose to ignore the role of oracles especially when his own uncle was one. I know they fell out but surely Geshe Kelsang Gyatso can rise above it all.

I remember reading that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso discourages oracles and tulkus because it can be subject to abuse for worldly reasons, especially after Geshela passes on. However, if the tulku and oracle systems have survived over so many centuries, I think they will surely survive the 21st century too.

Geshe-la wants to focus on the essence of Dharma rather then cultral additions like Tulkus and oracles, Just because the NKT doesnt recognise Tulkus within its own it doesnt mean that they disavow the authenticity of recognised Incarnations. Dorje Shugden personally composed Geshe-la's longlife prayer so the relationship is very close but again oracles are not used because of various reasons it doesnt invalidate them, Geshe-la has said he will be reborn among his disciples and practice the very training programes he has set out in his next life will he have a fancy title and make a song and dance about it, I very much doubt it the greatness of a teacher doesnt depend on their title or status but in their ability to convey the message and demonstrate  the example. We do things differently because we are not Tibetan Buddhists.

Thank you Zach for the explanation. Yes, Just because NKT does not recognise the Tulku system, it does not mean that it does not exist. And NKT does not discriminate anyone who believe in the Tulku system. I think this should be the Buddhist way of living in harmony with all Buddhists and the world. Difference in thinking does not make one centre better than the other or vice versa.
 
Thank you Geshe-la for spearheading the movement for the removal of the ban. Let's all support each other!



Dondrup Shugden

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2012, 03:54:59 PM »
Lamas with their skillful means and methods is all I can think of, when the question of why Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso does not propagate Tulkus and oracles, but the fact remains that this skillful Lama teaches a large part of the world of the Pure Dharma of Dorje Shugden.

His books are sold every way and his centres are all over the world. I thank Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso for bringing Dorje Shugden to the mind stream of so many and benefitting them with the compassion and protection of the Protector Buddha of our time.

DharmaDefender

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2012, 05:02:17 PM »
I think its already been mentioned about Geshe-las preference to focus on the essence of Buddhadharma, but also if you really understand Dharma then you will realise that the tulku system is possible (without Geshe-la having to teach that it is possible).

What I mean is this: reincarnation is an accepted tenet of Buddhism across all the schools. It's also accepted that ordinary people like us cannot control our rebirths. We cannot control our reincarnations because we cannot control the creation of our karma. And we also have not purified our karma. We cannot purify our karma, or control its creation because we cannot control our body, speech and mind.

Now on the other hand, attained beings CAN control their body, speech and mind. Therefore they can purify their karma, and prevent more negative karma from being created. Inferential logic tells you that since attained beings can control their karma, they can therefore control their rebirths. If they can control their rebirths, it means that tulkus can can exist and the tulku system is possible.

Therefore even without Geshe-la having to utter approval of the tulku system, when he teaches about karma and reincarnation, he already recognises its possibility.

And as Zach W said, "Just because the NKT doesnt recognise Tulkus within its own it doesnt mean that they disavow the authenticity of recognised Incarnations."

pgdharma

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Re: Dorje Shugden practitioners owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2012, 05:09:41 PM »
We owe so much to Ven Geshe Kelsang Gyatso for this tireless effort to spread Dorje Shugden  in the West and all over the world. Because of his strong devotion to his Guru, he has defied all odds and practiced openly. So many NKT centers sprout out is due to the efforts of Geshe-la.

I wish Geshe-la to have a strong, healthy body and for his works to continue and spread to benefit all sentient beings.