Author Topic: Are we outcast by god?  (Read 21062 times)

dondrup

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2012, 08:36:46 PM »
Buddhas are fully-enlightened beings who work tirelessly non-stop for the happiness of all sentient beings including humans like us.  It is impossible for them to outcast humans! Only sentient beings of the higher realms of gods, demi-gods and humans would outcast the humans. These higher realm beings in samsara perceive things differently and in an ordinary and impure way due to their karma.  Though gods and demi-gods have purer view than humans, their views are still contaminated.

One possible reason for gods and demi-gods to outcast humans is that gods and demi-gods dislike humans’ appearance and smell!  As we go up the realms of existence in samsara, a glass of water (as perceived by humans) may appear as nectar to the gods; but for the hungry ghosts, water is like the mixture of pus and blood!  Pure beings like the Buddhas perceive everything purely and perfectly. 

Humans are born on planet Earth due to their throwing karma.  There is no need to redeem ourselves just to be accepted by the gods and demi-gods.  But there is the need to realise the preciousness of being born as human with the 8 freedoms and 10 endowments.  Humans with these favourable conditions will be able to gain liberation and enlightenment better than in the realms of gods and demi-gods.  Furthermore, the human body has the required constituents and through the practice of highest yoga tantra, humans can accomplish full enlightenment within one life time.

negra orquida

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2012, 03:39:40 PM »
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According to the Aggañña Sutta (DN.27), humans originated at the beginning of the current kalpa as deva-like beings reborn from the ?bh?svara deva-realm.

Guess this is consistent with the Christian saying "God created Man in His own image"

And yes i agree with dondrup... doesn't make sense to say Buddhas dumped humans.. if it were the case then Buddhism wouldn't exist.. why dump us then put in so much effort to "undo" that action?

kurava

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2012, 08:30:19 AM »
Dear Tammy,
In Buddhism, there is no creator God and no one has the power to cast out or condemn anyone to eternal hell.

We reap the fruits of the seeds we sow. We are the masters of our own destinies. Buddha taught us what are the causes to create and abandon if we want ultimate happiness. Even if one has committed heinous crimes such as Angulimala , if one sincerely practices the 4 powers of purification one can still attain freedom and liberation in one lifetime. Such is the dynamics of karma realized and taught by the Buddha that blind turtles like us must take full essence of our human life.

We are the fortunate ones that have the potential to reach the ultimate state, we definitely are NOT outcasts  ;D

Cheers !

Amitabha

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2012, 10:42:31 AM »
pastries make from flour and in itself are flour. buddha is flour whilr pastries are beings. it never outcast.

Tammy

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2012, 03:37:00 AM »
So the predecessor of human is asexual? accroding to the sutra quoted above, that's very interesting.

We should have remained asexual and not "differentiated into two sexes and became sexually active", because that seems to be the root of all our problems. hehehe.

so Tammy's argument is not entirely inaccurate, the origin of human is depited in the sutra as something like an outcast, but more of a self-inflicted outcast.

But there is no redemption, that theory only exists in christianity.

Dear Mana,

Thank you for your post, I totally agree with you !
(1) sexual desire is the root of (almost) ALL problems in samsara ! as we are in the desire realm.
Sexual desire blinds our mind, it leads to jealousy also! Hence the first step of gaining enlightenment is renunciation !!
(2) the 'outcast' is self-inflicted! WE are the root of our own problems! We cant control our minds and hence had committed countless bad deeds since beginningless times! the only redemption is to STOP focusing on ourselves and stop being selfish.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this, it has given me a whole new perspective in looking at my life and the meaning of it.

Namaste! 
Down with the BAN!!!

hope rainbow

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2012, 02:02:41 PM »
We should have remained asexual and not "differentiated into two sexes and became sexually active", because that seems to be the root of all our problems. hehehe.

This reminds me of a story I heard of two innocent human beings of the opposite sex, and there was an apple and a snake involved too.
:)

vajratruth

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2012, 05:07:33 PM »
There is a theory about human, animal and gods (buddhas) -

We human beings and all living beings on this planet earth are outcast by beings which are more attained than us. We are such terrible beings with endless list of bad behaviors that the gods/buddhas had to dumped us on planet earth and we had to work very very very hard to redeem ourselves.

Any thoughts to share?

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this theory. I can take "outcast" to mean "to be cast out from" and in that sense we are all cast out from our own karma and previous actions and decisions.To me it is not so important to determine who the "caster" is i.e. is he/she a God, a "more attained" being, the universe or the Law of Cause and Effect.

To me, it is more important to recognize that (i)we have been cast out; (ii) we do have an endless list of bad behaviors; and (iii) we have to work hard to redeem ourselves.

If it helps someone to visualize the existence of "higher more attained being" in order to work in improving oneself, so be it.

rossoneri

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2012, 07:27:38 AM »
In Buddhism, we practices the Dharma and holding our vows. Even Buddha Himself had to go thru samsara before He achieved enlightenment. We believed strongly in "Karma" another word the cause and effect. Very logical we are who we are today because of our past doing and karma. I believed this is how things work in this planet Earth or samsaric world as well.

If you do not work hard most certainly you won't be successful. In another words if you do work hard most certainly you'll be successful. Very logical....is the law of cause and effect.

So i do not agree or like to dismiss this theory of us beings is the outcast by the attained.

ilikeshugden

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2012, 12:03:09 AM »
This is the first time I heard of such an interesting theory. Are we truly the outcast? Are we? The simple answer is no. To explain, we were never outcasts of the gods because  gods in Buddhism are not free from the trappings of samsara while Buddha is defined as beings free from samsara. We are not outcasts of Buddhas, we just never had the merit to be Enlightened and we did not have the merit to be in a human form during a time when Dharma is most effective.  We are in the best form for us to cultivate to become enlightened! Don't think you are an outcast!

Midakpa

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2012, 05:56:15 AM »
This is the first time I heard this theory. Where's the source? Knowing the source of a hypothesis will help us decide whether it's reliable or not. Personally I don't think we are outcasts, as if some outside force has, through magic, thrown us on this planet. First of all,  Buddhism does not believe in a God. Secondly, one's existence, whether on earth or elsewhere, is determined by our karma as long as we are not enlightened.

I know of an explanation for population explosion on earth. It comes from Lama Yeshe when asked why the population is expanding all the time. Lama Yeshe said that like modern science, Buddhism talks about the existence of billions and billions of galaxies. The consciousness of a person born on earth may have come from a galaxy far away, drawn here by the force of karma, which connects that person's mental energy to the planet. On the other hand, the consciousness of a person dying on this earth may at the time of death be karmically directed to a rebirth in another galaxy, far from here. If more minds are being drawn to earth, the population increases; if fewer, it declines. That does not mean that brand new minds are coming into existence. Each mind taking rebirth here on earth has come from its previous life - perhaps another galaxy, perhaps on earth itself, but not from nowhere - in accordance with the cyclic nature of worldly existence.

This explanation indicates that the 6 realms of existence includes all the galaxies of the universe. We could have come from other planets. Amazing yet believable. It's our karma that propels us here, not God. It also shows how interconnected all beings are, and how much we depend on each other for our existence. We exist because the other exists. Pure and simple.

negra orquida

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2012, 09:21:04 AM »
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Over time, they acquired a taste for physical nutriment, and as they consumed it, their bodies became heavier and more like human bodies...

Hmm so does this mean that our "downfall" stemmed from our desire for / attachment to physical nutriment (i assume this means food)?  I wonder who started cooking and why when humans at the time didn't require sustenance...

Quote
I know of an explanation for population explosion on earth. It comes from Lama Yeshe when asked why the population is expanding all the time. Lama Yeshe said that like modern science, Buddhism talks about the existence of billions and billions of galaxies. The consciousness of a person born on earth may have come from a galaxy far away, drawn here by the force of karma, which connects that person's mental energy to the planet. On the other hand, the consciousness of a person dying on this earth may at the time of death be karmically directed to a rebirth in another galaxy, far from here. If more minds are being drawn to earth, the population increases; if fewer, it declines. That does not mean that brand new minds are coming into existence. Each mind taking rebirth here on earth has come from its previous life - perhaps another galaxy, perhaps on earth itself, but not from nowhere - in accordance with the cyclic nature of worldly existence

Interesting, thank you for sharing. 

I was wondering about something similar to this before: since there are less and less animals but more and more people on earth, does this mean there are more beings whose good merit to be reborn as human have ripened?

Aurore

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2012, 10:38:18 AM »
We are outcast? What and who decides that? If it's Buddhas or Gods i wouldn't bother embracing Buddhism. In the context of Buddhism, it is said that human life is most precious.  It's the best form to take after death. Human form is the best vessel to practice dharma which if properly practiced, we can gain enlightenment even within one life time. Sure being a god sounds good. But in the end, gods (more like worldly gods) will still have to face all that we humans face. What's more, with clairvoyance they are able to see their death and apparently they die a lonely death. Who is the outcast now?

Btw, Buddhas and gods are very very different. Buddhas are free from
karmas and possess an enlightened mind. Worldly gods still have ego.

Perhaps in the myth where Gods are depicted as being so powerful makes the humans seem much more inferior and god fearing.

KhedrubGyatso

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2012, 07:32:29 AM »
I agree with Klein on Bambi's mistaken statement labelling god as Buddha. Therefore, the question itself cannot be answered within such a context.
There is no such term as outcast in Buddhism because it alludes to an external being /agency who rejects us. We are owner of our karma . Who we are depends on how we create the causes.No one casts us out for being evil. We choose the causes to be one.

hope rainbow

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2012, 06:40:58 AM »
I agree with Klein on Bambi's mistaken statement labelling god as Buddha. Therefore, the question itself cannot be answered within such a context.
There is no such term as outcast in Buddhism because it alludes to an external being /agency who rejects us. We are owner of our karma . Who we are depends on how we create the causes.No one casts us out for being evil. We choose the causes to be one.
Indeed, I do not think that being outcast is a vocabulary that can be applied seriously to any religion.
Religion is rebellious against casts / outcasts
Religions are whole! Religions are ONE.
They are ONE because they all direct suffering beings to the same aim, and that aim knows NO CASTS, nor OUT-CASTS.
Being religious, being spiritual is being a rebel when it comes to count this one or that one or ourself part of this cast or that cast, or out-cast from this or that.

I think it would be erroneous to conclude that in some other religions, beings can be out-cast.
I think it would be lacking a more closer examination and a proper logical understanding of what is going on, why and what the purpose is.

Positive Change

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2012, 02:07:56 PM »
Outcast? God? Are these two "terms" rather vague and subjective? First and foremost, in Buddhist terms the concept of God (taken in context, a creator God of sorts) is somewhat shortsighted.

At the end of the day, it is to each his/her own and if whatever path leads them to true happiness why not? However, if the perception of ONE creator God "creating" us all were to be believed, why then did this all powerful being not create us all equal... Some may argue but HE did! Did he now? How come there are so many disparities and unhappiness in this world. Why did HE create this? To "test" us one might say... well, then it is not very fair is it? That one being chooses who suffers and who doesnt... Not plausible to me!

I mean no disrespect but how can the TRUTH be this subjective and unfair? Surely the law of cause and effect or Karma is a lot more plausible and makes each of us accountable for our actions and not blame "the almighty" for our crap life or for our fortunes....