Author Topic: Are we outcast by god?  (Read 21541 times)

Tammy

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Are we outcast by god?
« on: January 03, 2012, 03:55:15 PM »
There is a theory about human, animal and gods (buddhas) -

We human beings and all living beings on this planet earth are outcast by beings which are more attained than us. We are such terrible beings with endless list of bad behaviors that the gods/buddhas had to dumped us on planet earth and we had to work very very very hard to redeem ourselves.

Any thoughts to share?
Down with the BAN!!!

Klein

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2012, 04:23:22 PM »
We are not outcast by god (Buddhas). We can be an animal, human being or god. It's all up to our actions and our state of mind. No one controls us or banishes us to a lesser existence. Everything that happen to us including the form of existence we take are a result of our actions. Yes we are our own result. So we take full responsibility of our life.


WisdomBeing

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2012, 04:47:49 PM »
Dear Tammy

Buddha has never said that this happened so i am afraid that I tend to disbelieve this hypothesis. This circumstance that you describe sounds more like the human/animal/gods realm being one of the hells. However, instead of being banished to this existence, it is more like we are here as a result of our karma, as Klein has said. The real 'redemption' will be our achieving enlightenment and leaving samsara.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

DSFriend

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2012, 05:07:09 PM »
There is a theory about human, animal and gods (buddhas) -

We human beings and all living beings on this planet earth are outcast by beings which are more attained than us. We are such terrible beings with endless list of bad behaviors that the gods/buddhas had to dumped us on planet earth and we had to work very very very hard to redeem ourselves.

Any thoughts to share?

Dear Tammy

This is the first of such theory I've ever come across. From where did you get this theory? This theory sounds like a combination of an act of an all powerful being who determines where beings go, judgmental, and an inter-changeable definition of god and buddha is being used.

In Buddhism, we never associate --> gods/buddha. These two are very different. Gods in Buddhism are not free from the trappings of samsara while Buddha is defined as beings free from samsara. So to start with, this theory certainly did not originate from the Buddha Dharma.

However, if you are referring to the monotheistic God  of the Christian faith, then ya..that's  how the story goes that Adam and Eve were "kicked out" of paradise (of the Garden of Eden). Yet, there is an inconsistency in the theory you presented, as according to the Christian faith, they do not need to work very, very hard to redeem themselves but rather redeem themselves by receiving the grace of God thru the Savior Christ.

This theory neither originated from the Christian nor Buddhist faith.

Galen

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2012, 07:33:13 PM »
We are no outcast. In fact we are in the best form for us to cultivate to become enlightened. As what is said in the LAMRIM, the precious human life is very difficult to get by. For us to be reborn in the human realm is like a tortise coming out of the ocean once in a hundred years and when it comes up, its head comes up to a golden yoke. The probability of this happening is very slim and therefore we should appreciate our precious human life and start cultivating. It would be very hard for us to cultivate if we were reborn in the 3 lower realms because either the suffering is too much or do not have the mind to practice.

How we ended up as humans are from our own actions in our previous lives and not being sent down by God.

hope rainbow

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2012, 04:03:27 AM »
There is a theory about human, animal and gods (buddhas) -

We human beings and all living beings on this planet earth are outcast by beings which are more attained than us. We are such terrible beings with endless list of bad behaviors that the gods/buddhas had to dumped us on planet earth and we had to work very very very hard to redeem ourselves.

Any thoughts to share?

Thank you Tammy for a provocative topic posted, one I never heard and never got to debate on...

(a.) gods and buddhas refer to groups of beings with different qualities. See DSfriend's comment above

(b.) NOBODY is "such a terrible being", NOBODY. I mean this from the way it is phrased and what that way imputes.
How? Like this:
There are no angry people, but there are people overcome by anger momentarily.
There are no "terrible" beings, but there are people engaging in "terrible" actions.

(c.) NO BEING, HOWEVER POWERFUL they are can outcast a being that does not have the karma to be "outcasted". So the being that created such karma and is outcasted need to reflect on who bears the responsibility for it.
(case in point: Dorje Shugden cannot be outcasted, even when the Dalai Lama says so)

Therefore, it is certainly not about terrible people (b.) being outcast (c.) by gods, nor buddhas (a.).

(d.) "To work very hard to redeem ourselves" can also be misunderstood from a worldly view.
I mean this:
I lost my reputation: I must work hard to rebuild it.
I went into debts: I must work very hard to get my finances back in the green.
I have been badly criticized: I must work in ways so that I get praises again.
I got fat and ugly: I must work hard to be slim and beautiful again.
The above are worldly motivated "redemptive activities".
How? Like this: THEY ARE ONLY CONCERNED WITH ME.
What we must work hard for is to get rid of SELF-CONCERN, that is the real liberation (and not the redemption of a concept called: ME).
It does not mean that we forgo of our "self", no it does not mean that, but it means that the self-liberation is done for the profit of ALL, and not just ME.
My happiness depends upon me stopping the worry about my happiness, and start to worry about others' happiness.
Thus, a more efficient mind set would say "I must liberate myself for the benefit of others", instead of "I must redeem MYSELF".

(e.) finally, a comment on being "outcast by beings which are more attained than us".
Beings that are more attained than us on a spiritual level are not so for punishing or "outcasting" less advanced people that misbehave.
This sounds a bit like a power struggle to me... not exactly spiritual.
Attained beings, are attained because they CARE FOR OTHERS on a level that we would not not begin to understand from a deluded mind, so even if they would "outcast" someone it would be out of immense compassion and because this is THE ONLY WAY possible.
So if we mention the "outcasting", I think we should start by explaining the qualities of attained beings, qualities of compassion, wisdom and clairvoyance, so that the activity is not misunderstood and so that non-informed people do not draw bias conclusions.

Thank you for your post Tammy, I am looking forward to debate with you further and again.
Cheers!

pgdharma

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2012, 02:36:55 PM »
We are not outcast by God. Whether we are reborn as God, human beings, animals, spirits or hungry ghosts is dependent of our own actions, karma and the state of our mind at the time of death. Buddha is an enlightened being, free from samsara.  He will not be judgmental to take such actions, so I think the theory of a Buddha out casting the lower beings are far from the truth.

kris

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2012, 05:24:04 PM »
We human beings and all living beings on this planet earth are outcast by beings which are more attained than us. We are such terrible beings with endless list of bad behaviors that the gods/buddhas had to dumped us on planet earth and we had to work very very very hard to redeem ourselves.

I don't agree with this statement. The place and situation we are are now in, is a result of our action (i.e. karma). If we agree that we are an outcast, then basically we have no power to purify our karma, and we have absolutely no become a Buddha, the we might as well say good bye Buddhism :)

nagaseeker

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2012, 05:50:14 PM »
There is a theory about human, animal and gods (buddhas) -

We human beings and all living beings on this planet earth are outcast by beings which are more attained than us. We are such terrible beings with endless list of bad behaviors that the gods/buddhas had to dumped us on planet earth and we had to work very very very hard to redeem ourselves.

Any thoughts to share?

remind me about the movie [ knowing ] but instead of human beings outcast by beings which are more attained than us. The more attained being ( aliens ) came to planet earth to 'save' human beings n animals and in the movies , those alien had predicted the date of the end of planet earth and try to warned human beings about it but  we keep on destroying out planet by producing all kinds of rubbish , wars ...ect...

and why should human being pray to god/buddha if they dumped us to planet earth ?

bambi

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2012, 05:44:13 AM »
I do not believe that we are outcast by god into this world. As taught in Buddhism, even gods are suffering like us as they are not Enlightened beings as stated in the Lamrim and shown on the Wheel of Life. We are what we did in the previous lives that we were in. Those gods collected a lot of positive karma that led them to where they are now. Even so, the gods and Demi gods fight everyday because of jealousy, hatred and pride that consumes them and when they die, they too have to go through rebirth in the lower realms. Therefore, it is very important to be able to collect as much merits now to ensure a good rebirth since we are born as a human and being able to serve Dharma in every lifetime.

yontenjamyang

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2012, 08:07:40 AM »
There is this theory that is similar. It is about an aliens race from the planet Niburu or Planet X that is suppose to be in orbit around the sun. Forget have many years the orbit takes. It is a long long story involving, these alien crossing their own genes with the apes of planet Earth to get Homo Sapiens ie Humans. Hence, we have the Bible, saying that man is created in the image of God....and woman from man's rib.
As a Buddhist, I believe in Karma. Conventionally, the human race evolved from lower animals as describe by Darwin. We became human by entering our mother womb at conception due to our throwing Karma. If Earth has not got human yet then we would be humans in some other planets or realm/universe.
Sound far fetch? Well, it is a conjecture. You cannot disprove it..hehe!

Mana

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2012, 10:18:02 PM »
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_beings_in_Buddhism

Myth of human origins
 
According to the Aggañña Sutta (DN.27), humans originated at the beginning of the current kalpa as deva-like beings reborn from the ?bh?svara deva-realm. They were then beings shining in their own light, capable of moving through the air without mechanical aid, living for a very long time, and not requiring sustenance.
 
Over time, they acquired a taste for physical nutriment, and as they consumed it, their bodies became heavier and more like human bodies; they lost their ability to shine, and began to acquire differences in their appearance. Their length of life decreased, they differentiated into two sexes and became sexually active. Following this, greed, theft and violence arose among them, and they consequently established social distinctions and government and elected a king to rule them, called Mahasammata, "the great appointed one". Some of the kings of India in the Buddha´s day claimed descent from him.

Mana

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2012, 10:24:08 PM »
So the predecessor of human is asexual? accroding to the sutra quoted above, that's very interesting.

We should have remained asexual and not "differentiated into two sexes and became sexually active", because that seems to be the root of all our problems. hehehe.

so Tammy's argument is not entirely inaccurate, the origin of human is depited in the sutra as something like an outcast, but more of a self-inflicted outcast.

But there is no redemption, that theory only exists in christianity.

Big Uncle

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2012, 11:54:20 AM »
So the predecessor of human is asexual? accroding to the sutra quoted above, that's very interesting.

We should have remained asexual and not "differentiated into two sexes and became sexually active", because that seems to be the root of all our problems. hehehe.

so Tammy's argument is not entirely inaccurate, the origin of human is depited in the sutra as something like an outcast, but more of a self-inflicted outcast.

But there is no redemption, that theory only exists in christianity.

Haha! I love this thread. Although it sounds very Christian but I think this theory would apply to Buddhism as well, as pointed out by Mana. I think this theory makes sense actually because in Buddhism, we are inherently good and our Buddha nature is deeply embedded within our mind. Hence, we must have been like that many eons ago but something happened. We have made ourselves outcast from out true selves. Hence, spiritual practice is rediscovering our true selves within the 'dirt and grime' of lifetimes.

Klein

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Re: Are we outcast by god?
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2012, 04:04:34 PM »
I do not believe that we are outcast by god into this world. As taught in Buddhism, even gods are suffering like us as they are not Enlightened beings as stated in the Lamrim and shown on the Wheel of Life. We are what we did in the previous lives that we were in. Those gods collected a lot of positive karma that led them to where they are now. Even so, the gods and Demi gods fight everyday because of jealousy, hatred and pride that consumes them and when they die, they too have to go through rebirth in the lower realms. Therefore, it is very important to be able to collect as much merits now to ensure a good rebirth since we are born as a human and being able to serve Dharma in every lifetime.

Dear Bambi,

There seems to be some confusion here regarding the term GOD. Tammy's GOD is referring to the Buddhas and not the god and demi-god realms in samsara.

Anyways, as Buddhists, we know no one outcasts us. We are where we are due to our own karma.