Author Topic: Buddhism and Science related?  (Read 9519 times)

sonamdhargey

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Buddhism and Science related?
« on: July 15, 2012, 09:44:14 AM »
Is Buddhism compatible with science? I find many experiences and teachings can correlate with science and quantum physics. I think science has a lot to catch up about Buddhism. Please watch this video about Buddhism and Science.
Where Science and Buddhism Meet PART 1 Small | Large


Nagarjuna had been the most important Buddhist philosopher of India. According to Etienne Lamotte his lifetime was in the second part of the 3rd century after Christ. His philosophy is of topical interest. Till this day it determines the modes of thought of all Tibetan Buddhist traditions. About his life we have no assured knowledge but various legends which I won't go into detail about. But the authenticity of 13 of his works is assured by scientific research. The Dane Chr. Lindtner endeavored to analyze and to translate these 13 works.
Source: http://www.boloji.com/index.cfm?md=Content&sd=Articles&ArticleID=677

Do you think it make sense?


Midakpa

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Re: Buddhism and Science related?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2012, 11:10:20 AM »
The video clearly explains that what the physicists are beginning to discover are in line with what the Buddha had already discovered 2600 years ago. The Buddha's explanation of the origin of the universe corresponds very closely with the scientific view. It is only recently that scientists have begun to realize how similar their discoveries are to basic Buddhist concepts like "emptiness", "oneness" etc. Einstein said that "All matter is made of waves and we live in a world of waves". We are part of the same waves. According to the Buddha, there is no such thing as permanent life or entity that exists without changing and without dissolution. The Buddha talked about billions of world systems which appear, disappear and reappear again. It is now that scientists are talking about a "multiverse". The question the scientists have yet to ask is "What is the purpose of life?" It would be interesting to study, from the Buddhist point of view, the whole universe as a battlefield, as a continuous struggle of good karmic energy against negative karmic energy, how the mind itself is a great battlefield and how the internal battlefield affects the external physical world.

Q

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Re: Buddhism and Science related?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2012, 12:04:59 PM »
Actually, I don't see the need for relating Buddhism with Science really. Buddhism does not need science to validate if it's true. However, I must admit that it is rather interesting to read about the findings from science that are parallel to the Buddha's teachings.

As far as Buddhism goes, experience and reasoning always comes first before the sutras. This can be seen through the Dalai Lama himself, when HH expressed that if modern science presents good evidence that Buddhist ideas is wrong, then he will accept the modern science. This is because Buddhism does not relate to sutras the way people relate to Abrahamic religions where the texts are words of a God that should not be questioned. Instead, Buddhism points towards understanding the reality of which may be out of reach in ordinary cognition and senses.

For this very reason, merely 'believing it' has no particular value in Buddhist teachings. Personally, I find my Dharma practice is on that is very intimate to me. Through realizing the truths and practising it brings about transformation from within... for that, Buddhist practice is very close to my heart and spiritual development.

For now, I don't see how science and Buddhism can conflict with each other... the video proves it lol! In fact, it may be helpful for those whom are more intellectual to accept Buddhism to develop spiritually.

Rihanna

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Re: Buddhism and Science related?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2012, 01:13:24 PM »
According to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, Science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge. This system uses observation and experimentation to describe and explain natural phenomena. The term science also refers to the organized body of knowledge people have gained using that system. Less formally, the word science often describes any systematic field of study or the knowledge gained from it.

Take the example of The Four Noble Truths:
The First Noble Truth is True Suffering:- this is an experience that can be defined, experienced and measured.
The Second Noble Truth is True Origin:- this means that suffering has a natural cause, carving, desire which can also be defined, experienced and measured.
The Third Noble Truth is True Cessation To Suffering:- this means that suffering can be ended by removing its causes which is self-evident.
The Fourth Noble Cause is True Path:- this means the way to end suffering is to behave morally in specific ways to eradicate the causes.

All the above explains the origins and workings of the universal laws of cause and effect. So I would say that Buddhism has a scientific spirit and has a strong scientific overtone than any other religion.

Albert Einstein, the most influential physicist of the 20th century said: "The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology. It should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism.

sonamdhargey

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Re: Buddhism and Science related?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2012, 02:13:48 PM »
Actually, I don't see the need for relating Buddhism with Science really. Buddhism does not need science to validate if it's true. However, I must admit that it is rather interesting to read about the findings from science that are parallel to the Buddha's teachings.

As far as Buddhism goes, experience and reasoning always comes first before the sutras. This can be seen through the Dalai Lama himself, when HH expressed that if modern science presents good evidence that Buddhist ideas is wrong, then he will accept the modern science. This is because Buddhism does not relate to sutras the way people relate to Abrahamic religions where the texts are words of a God that should not be questioned. Instead, Buddhism points towards understanding the reality of which may be out of reach in ordinary cognition and senses.

For this very reason, merely 'believing it' has no particular value in Buddhist teachings. Personally, I find my Dharma practice is on that is very intimate to me. Through realizing the truths and practising it brings about transformation from within... for that, Buddhist practice is very close to my heart and spiritual development.

For now, I don't see how science and Buddhism can conflict with each other... the video proves it lol! In fact, it may be helpful for those whom are more intellectual to accept Buddhism to develop spiritually.

Thanks Q for your feedback. I would think that science has a lot to catch up to do to research about Buddhism. It is not about using science to validate Buddhism but the science today has not understand Buddhism yet as science methods are still far behind. Buddhism is the science of the mind. 

ratanasutra

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Re: Buddhism and Science related?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2012, 04:19:52 PM »
As we know that science has proved many things which has been taught by Buddha in a couple of thousand years ago. and science still continue to discover and prove more things..

In this modern world, everything must be proved by science then we will trust and when i was young i used to think like that too as the culture, the structure of study in the school put the system of science into student so i only believe in things that can be proved until one day i'm grown up more and science could not answer and prove many things that i encountered in my life and later on i found out that Buddhism can provide answer from that since that day Buddhism started in my life. 

Below here is an excerpt from a talk of Thich Nhat Hanh about Buddhism and Science which very interesting in Plum Village on Nov. 17, 2005

One day a group of young people from Kalama came to visit the Buddha while he was in the area.
They asked the Buddha, "Dear teacher, many teachers have come here and they have each contended that their teaching is true, is the absolute. Each one says that we should follow them and not follow any other teacher. What is your idea?"
The Buddha said, "Don't hurry to believe in anything, even if it has been written in the holy scriptures. Don't hurry to believe in anything just because a very famous teacher has said it. Don't believe in anything just because the majority has agreed that it is the truth. You should test anything people say with your own experience before you accept or reject it."
What the Buddha said is truly scientific. Buddhism may not be described as a science, but it has the scientific spirit.

As a scientist, after some time researching and doing a lot of experiments, you discover something. Having made a discovery you have to publish what you have discovered, because you believe that you have found the truth, a scientific truth. After you have published your findings in a science magazine other people will look at it, and there will be a very small number of specialists in your field that will determine whether your finding is the truth or not. To do that they have to go test it by themselves. They cannot just say that what you have said is true, because they are specialists in the field. They have to prove it with their own experimentation. The large majority of people who are not specialists in the field, we just believe, because we do not have the means to test the discovery in order to verify that it is the truth. We have to believe in a very small handful of scientists in the field.

In the domain of science there is a lot of belief. We believe what the specialists say without having tested it ourselves. Even so, after it has been proven to be the truth, ten years later or twenty years later a new truth is found to be higher, to be deeper, to be truer than the earlier truth. And then again there will be a handful of specialists who will try to confirm it, and we, the majority, we just follow. In this way we behave like religious people, even in the domain of science.

What about the practice of Buddhism? In Buddhism, the object of our studies is the mind and how it relates to suffering and happiness. We are not so concerned with the table and the cloud, with the atom and the stars. But we are concerned about suffering and happiness. We are not philosophers. We do not speculate about happiness and suffering. We want to really observe our suffering, observe our happiness. We want to work it out. We want to liberate ourselves from suffering. We want to bring in true happiness. And this is real work that cannot be done just by talking.

When you sit down, follow your breath and generate the energy of mindfulness and concentration you have your instruments to work with. You can recognize and embrace your suffering. You can cultivate the kind of wisdom that can help disintegrate the suffering. You do it in the spirit of empiricism—you really go into it; you do not just speak about it. Your suffering is a reality, and you recognize it. You go into it, you analyze it, and you use mindfulness, concentration, and insight in order to transform it. It is like a scientist using his or her instruments in order to look deeply into the nature of what is there. And after having discovered a method of transformation and healing, you may like to share it with your students or with your friends. There are good meditation practitioners who have more or less the same kind of experiences. They try to verify and to experience the same kind of thing. If they succeed, they might say, "What you have told us is true. I have gone through the same kind of experience." But many people around them just believe, without having had the experience. So there is not a great difference between science and Buddhism. Many Buddhists just believe. There are only a handful of us who can testify to the truth that has been discovered.

Buddhism sometimes describes the mind and sometimes describes the world, but that description is not for the sake of description. That description is for the sake of the practice. If you learn about the mind it is because you want to practice well. It is not because you want to have a beautiful doctrine about the mind. If you speak about impermanence or non-self it is not for the sake of describing reality as being impermanent and free from a separate self. That description is an instrument to help you to liberate yourself, because the truth of impermanence and non-self can help you to overcome your despair, your fear, and so on. So there is a difference.

When a scientist studies a particle he has to use instruments, particle accelerators and the like, but he has to use his mind also. Most of the time scientists stand outside of the particle as an observer, and the particle becomes the object of observation. But in the experimentation of Buddhist practitioners you don't stand outside as an observer. You cannot afford to be an observer. You have to become a participant, because the block of suffering you experience is not the object of your observation. It is you. You are that block of suffering. That is why the Buddha said to practice contemplation of the body in the body, contemplation of the feelings in the feelings. You cannot afford to be an observer standing outside. You have to become one with the object that you observe. That is the difference between science and Buddhism, and modern scientists begin to see that.

The British physicist David Bohm said that in order to really understand the atom you should stop being just an observer. You should begin to be a participant. This is very close to the discipline of meditation.

The political left believes in science, in liberalism and in reason. They are fighting with all their might against fundamentalism and dogmatism, but they still suffer a lot. They do not have enough strength. Politically speaking they have lost the election. Because they support true science and freedom of thought they are anti-dogmatic, yes, but this is still not enough. They have not been able to bring a spiritual dimension into their lives. Is it possible to have a spiritual dimension in our daily life, in our political, economic life, without being caught in fundamentalism? The Buddha proved that he is a liberal. He is very liberal, but he is deeply spiritual. That is why in speaking of biological evolution you have to begin to think about cultural evolution, about a spiritual evolution that has the power to liberate us from dogmatism and fundamentalism. The question is how science and meditation can hold hands with one another in order to go ahead into the future, for our liberation. This is a question of our time.

In August 2006 we shall have a retreat on Mind and Neuroscience, and we will have a chance to go into this problem. Buddhism sometimes appears like a religion, but it is not truly a religion. Sometimes it appears like a science, but it is not a science, because we are concerned with ultimate reality. We like to ask questions, but we also want to transform, to heal. There is within Buddhism a tremendous source of wisdom and experience handed down by the Buddha and many generations of practitioners. We can learn a lot from their experiences so that we can in our turn heal and transform ourselves, and help heal and transform the world.

buddhalovely

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Re: Buddhism and Science related?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2012, 06:55:47 AM »
Zen teacher - John Daido Loori said, "When science goes deeper than the superficial qualities -- and these days science does go much deeper -- it remains constrained to a study of the aggregates. From tree morphology -- trunk, bark, branches, leaves, fruit, seeds -- we dip into tree chemistry, then tree physics; from molecules of cellulose to atoms, electrons, protons." However, "When the true eye functions, it goes beyond looking and enters the realm of seeing. Looking speaks to what things are. Seeing reveals what else things are, the hidden aspect of reality, the reality of a rock, a tree, a mountain, a dog or a person."

For the most part the disciplines of science and Buddhism work on entirely different planes that touch each other only lightly. I can't imagine how science and Buddhism could conflict with each other significantly even if they tried. At the same time, there's no reason science and Buddhism can't peacefully co-exist and even, sometimes, illuminate each other. His Holiness the Dalai Lama seems to have seen the possibilities of such illumination.

Midakpa

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Re: Buddhism and Science related?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2012, 02:56:30 PM »
Buddhism is different from theistic religions in the sense that Buddhism was always open to scientific thinking. In the Prologue to his book "The Universe In A Single Atom", H.H. the Dalai Lama emphasized to the millions of his fellow Buddhists worldwide the need to take science seriously and to accept its fundamental discoveries within their worldview. He said that basic insights of theories such as those of evolution, relativity and quantum physics cannot be ignored.

His Holiness' openness is demonstrated by the fact that he had dialogues and conversations with eminent scientists in order to learn from them. These were called dialogues between science and Buddhism. Through the dialogues between the two disciplines, H.H. hoped that both science and spirituality may develop to be of better service to the needs and well-being of humanity.

It is clear that H.H. the Dalai Lama is very concerned about how science can serve the interests of humanity and not the other way round. He believes that ethics have a place in science. He said, "... for me, the need to engage with this powerful force in our world has become a kind of spiritual injunction... The central question - central for the survival and well-being of our world - is how we can make the wonderful developments of science into something that offers altruistic and compassionate service for the needs of humanity and the other sentient beings with whom we share the earth". ("The Universe in a Single Atom", 2005:10)

Tenzin K

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Re: Buddhism and Science related?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2012, 03:03:32 PM »
The dialogues between Buddhist masters such as His Holiness the Dalai Lama and scientists have focused so far primarily on three areas. One is astrophysics, concerning primarily how the universe developed. Does it have a beginning? Was it created or is it part of an eternal process? Another topic is particle physics, regarding the structure of atoms and matter. The third is neurosciences, about how the brain works. These are the main areas.

One of the conclusions that both science and Buddhism reach in common is that there is no creator. In science, the theory of the conservation of matter and energy states that matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only transformed. Buddhists totally agree and extend the principle to mind as well. "Mind" in Buddhism means awareness of phenomena - either conscious or unconscious - and awareness of phenomena can neither be created nor destroyed, only transformed. Thus, rebirth is simply a transformation in the ongoing continuity of an individual's awareness of phenomena, but now with the physical basis of another body.

Particle physicists emphasize the role of the observer in defining anything. For example, from a certain point of view, light is matter; from another point of view, it is energy. What type of phenomenon light seems to exist as depends on many variables, particularly on the conceptual framework the investigator is using to analyze it. Thus, phenomena do not exist inherently as this or that from their own sides, unrelated to the consciousness that perceives them.

Buddhism asserts the same thing: what things exist as depends on the observer and the conceptual framework with which the person regards them. For example, whether a certain situation exists as a horrible problem or as something solvable depends on the observer, the person involved. If somebody has the conceptual framework, "This is an impossible situation and nothing can be done," then there really is a difficult problem that cannot be solved. However, with the frame of mind that thinks, "This is complicated and complex, but there is a solution if we approach it in a different way," then that person is much more open to try to find a solution. What is a huge problem for one person is not a big deal for another. It depends on the observer, for our problems do not inherently exist as monstrous problems. Thus, science and Buddhism come to the same conclusion: phenomena exist as this or that dependent on the observer.

Similarly, neurologists and Buddhists both note the dependently arising relationship of things. For example, when the neurologists examine the brain in an attempt to find what makes our decisions, they find that there is no separate "decision-maker" in the brain. No little person called "me" sits inside the head, receiving information from the eyes, ears and so on, as if on a computer screen, and makes decisions by pushing a button so that the arm does this and the leg does that. Rather, decisions are the results of complex interactions of an enormous network of nerve impulses and chemical and electrical processes. Together, they bring the result, a decision. This happens without there being a distinct entity that is a decision- maker. Buddhism emphasizes the same thing: there is no "me" which is permanent and solid sitting in our heads, which makes our decisions. Conventionally, we say, "I'm experiencing this. I'm doing that," but actually, what occurs is the result of a very complex interaction of many different factors. Science and Buddhism are very close in this regard.

kris

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Re: Buddhism and Science related?
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2012, 05:27:15 PM »
This is quite an interesting video, and thank you sonamdhargey so much for sharing this :)

Buddhism text and science theories has been complimenting each other very well most of the time, and many scientists has openly accepted Buddhism, for example the Albert Einstein. Even the more recent scientists like Stephen Hawking, his theories and models are getting more and more aligned with Buddhism (with some exceptions, one of them is beginning of time [Buddhism said there is no beginning while Hawking say there is a finite beginning of time]).

Quantum physics is not easy to understand :) Though I have watched the video a few times, there are things I still don't quite understand :P

yontenjamyang

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Re: Buddhism and Science related?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2012, 06:08:45 AM »
It is well known in the scientific and buddhist communities that Buddhism and science is not contradictory but complimentary to the scientific community. For buddhists, Buddhism encompass science, as science can never prove buddhism wrong. Even if the Dalai Lama said that if science prove some buddhist concept not accurate, he will adopt the scientific view; he is merely saying so because the field of science is in transition and has not caught up with Buddhism. Ultimately, Buddhism is still correct.

Interestingly, the "science" that we are talking about is just the "science" of this universe. Science itself speculates that in other universes or dimensions, there will most probably be other laws of physic and chemistry at work. It we take that into account from the buddhist perspective, then we can only conclude that the laws of science itself are merely our projections.


hope rainbow

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Re: Buddhism and Science related?
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2012, 02:42:49 PM »
I find it interesting that it is when science elevates itself or transcends itself beyond the laws of physics and biology and into the vast understandings of metaphysics or the voyage into and endless nano-world that science connects more deeply with Buddhism and touches the reality a tad bit closer.

And indeed, I mean that the level of science which explains why hot air rises does not mean much in relation to Buddhism, but the science that touches on an understanding of "time" or "energy of matter" or "big bang" comes closer and paralleled to Buddhism.

And you know what happens to parralels when you put them into perspective? They meet!

vajrastorm

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Re: Buddhism and Science related?
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2012, 01:46:27 PM »
To begin with, Science does share, with Buddhism, a commitment to keep searching for reality in a spirit of 'scientific inquiry' using empirical means and logical reasoning and inference.Both stand ready to discard any long-held view or position if our continued search leads us to discovering that the truth we have long held is different.

Nonetheless, the goals of Buddhism and Science are different. Lord Buddha set out on his long journey,after leaving his palace and wife and child, to search for the meaning of life and existence, to find out the truths of suffering, cause of  and how to get out of suffering. Sitting under the Bodhi tree on the night of his Enlightenment,he discovered the reality of existence and the universe and all phenomena and he discovered that it is our misconception of reality that is at the root of our suffering.

After Buddha, great Buddhist saints and pandits, like Nargajuna,have increased our understanding of this reality through their own study and contemplation. Other great saints and pandits, like Je Tsongkapa, studied and expounded on Nargajuna's Middle and Correct View of Emptiness(Reality) ; and so now , we are the inheritors of Je Tsongkapa's excellent lineage teachings on this.   

Whereas science is only now beginning to discover Material reality and emptiness and interconnectivity, and this in no way compares to the wisdom of what the Buddha and others, like Nargajuna, have transmitted on Emptiness, karma, dependent origin, interdependent arising and the two Truths(Relative and Ultimate Truth or Reality). Standing alone, the knowledge that Science has so far gleaned about reality is dangerously incomplete. As the Dalai Lama says(in 'The Universe in a Single Atom',Ch. 2, 'Reflections' ,"(There is an) assumption that, in the final analysis, matter, as it can be described by physics and as it is governed by the laws of physics, is all there is to it".

Science too is not all that objective in its view on reality. Quoting HH Dalai Lama again, "The (ideas), that all aspects of reality can be reduced to matter and its particles, do not constitute scientific knowledge; rather they represent a philosophical, in fact a metaphysical, position. (This) view..........is, to my mind, as much a metaphysical position as the view that an organizing intelligence created and controls reality".