Author Topic: The 17th Karmapa and the 11th Panchen Lama – a Chinese conspiracy?  (Read 6823 times)

DharmaDefender

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Maybe Im a bit late? Just wondering if anyone has seen this article? Interesting how the CTA and the Tibetans constantly blast us for being Chinese spies, when they themselves support a Chinese-elected Karmapa, and have the Chinese-elected Karmapa meeting the Chinese-elected Panchen Lama...and being totally okay with it! Whats up with that?!

From: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-17th-karmapa-and-the-11th-panchen-lama-a-chinese-conspiracy/

The 17th Karmapa and the 11th Panchen Lama - a Chinese conspiracy?


H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama and H.H. the 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley

Ogyen Trinley Dorje Rinpoche, one of the two main Karmapa incarnates, has been plagued by rumors for years that he is a Chinese spy. For this, he has been under scrutiny by both the Tibetan community as well as the Indian government. Yet he is considered close to HH the Dalai Lama and receives no criticism from either the Dalai Lama or his government, the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA), for his close relations with the Chinese.


Implications of Chinese Support

Ogyen Trinley was enthroned at Tibet's Tsurphu Monastery – the Karmapas' traditional seat – as the 17th Karmapa in 1992, which was ratified by the Chinese government. This was particularly notable because Ogyen Trinley was the first reincarnated Lama to be recognized and endorsed by the Chinese government. Ogyen Trinley even met the President of China Jiang Zemin in front of a 100,000-strong crowd in October 1994.

When a 14-year-old Ogyen Trinley Rinpoche left China in 2000, his relative ease of passage from China across the Himalayas prompted suspicions that China had helped him to “run away” across the border. This, compounded by the lack of criticism from China after Ogyen Trinley’s departure from China, has led to various accusations of Ogyen Trinley as a Chinese spy. Accusations of being a Chinese spy are very detrimental to any Tibetan, let alone someone of such standing as the Karmapa. With the controversy that has arisen in the recognition of two Karmapas, Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorje, it is especially critical that each of these contenders have as clean a reputation as possible.

As if the situation was not complicated enough, the Karmapa’s exile headquarters Rumtek is located in Sikkim, which lies on the border between China and India. Due to the political tension over Sikkim between China and India, the Indian government would be gravely concerned with security implications of Ogyen Trinley being a Chinese spy.

These allegations became most serious in 2011, when large amounts of various currencies including Chinese currency was found in Ogyen Trinley’s residence, Gyuto Tantric College at Dharamsala, which resulted in the Indian police officially charging Ogyen Trinley with conspiracy. He was eventually absolved but the stigma remains and has kept some parties wary of Ogyen Trinley’s positioning within India.


The Karmapa meets the Panchen Lama

The second recognition of a “Living Buddha” by the Chinese government was of the 5-year-old Gyancain Norbu Banquin Erdeni, as the 11th Panchen Lama in 1995. This recognition was controversial because of the unexplained and sudden disappearance of the other Panchen Lama who was recognised by the Dalai Lama. This continues to be a contested issue, with many who still do not recognize the Beijing-backed Panchen as the authentic incarnation.

However, in what may be regarded as a surprising development, the Dalai-Lama-backed Ogyen Trinley has been known to meet and maintain a good friendship with the young Panchen Lama Gyancain Norbu. Here, for example, they can be seen sharing the traditional greeting of touching foreheads as a mark of mutual respect between two high Lamas.


The 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje Rinpoche and the very young 11th Panchen Lama

The Karmapa issue is a highly complex one which we will not go into here. We do not have any opinion on this controversy, as this is an internal issue of the Karma Kagyu lineage, which we are not qualified to comment on. However, what we do wish to point out is this: it is clear that Ogyen Trinley has a strong relationship with China and he makes no attempt to conceal this friendship or his support of the Chinese-backed lamas, such as the 11th Panchen Lama Gyancain Norbu. China also is very explicit about their support and endorsement of Ogyen Trinley’s position as the Karmapa and his relationship with the 11th Panchen Lama. This (also available http://video.dorjeshugden.com/videos/KarmapaAndPanchenLama.flv]here) - of Ogyen Trinley meeting the 11th Panchen Lama - shows clearly this closeness. This video is likely to have been taken in 1999. (See Notes 109, p. 322. “Music in the Sky: The Life, Art & Teachings of the 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje”, Michele Martin, 2003).

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Meeting so openly with the 11th Panchen Lama and maintaining such explicitly strong ties with China is tantamount to ‘betraying’ the Dalai Lama and such behavior would be seen as that of a “traitor” to Tibet. This is because the Karmapa would be supporting someone who is not endorsed by the Dalai Lama. Rather, the Karmapa is obviously supporting a Panchen Lama candidate who the Chinese – who are purportedly so opposed to the Tibetans and the cause for Tibet  - selected and enthroned in lieu of the candidate picked by the Dalai Lama. Not only is this politically incorrect but in spiritual terms, the Karmapa’s support of the Chinese-backed Panchen Lama directly breaks the Karmapa’s samaya (spiritual relationship) with the Dalai Lama.


This is a screenshot extracted from the video mentioned above

Yet there is no criticism from the CTA and the Dalai Lama continues to have a close relationship with Ogyen Trinley. Never is he branded a traitor to the Dalai Lama nor accused by any Tibetan of taking Chinese funds and being a Chinese spy. Considering how fiercely the CTA and Tibetans defend their cause for Tibetan independence against the Chinese, their lack of response towards Ogyen Trinley’s relationship with China is very unusual.


Inconsistent and unfair behavior by the Tibetan authorities

On the other hand, when renowned lamas such as H.E. Gangchen Rinpoche and H.H. Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal meet the 11th Panchen Lama, they are criticized for being traitors to the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan cause for independence. Other practitioners of the Dharma Protector Dorje Shugden are also often wrongfully accused as being Chinese spies and taking money from the Chinese. This arose after the Dalai Lama proclaimed that the practice of Dorje Shugden would harm the cause for the freedom of Tibet and threaten the life of the Dalai Lama; he claimed that anyone who continued their Dorje Shugden practice would be breaking their samaya with him and should therefore discontinue any association with him and other Tibetans.


H.E. Gangchen Rinpoche meets the young Chinese-backed 11th Panchen Lama

And so, we would like to respectfully ask the CTA why are there different standards set for the Karmapa and for Dorje Shugden practitioners like H.E. Gangchen Rinpoche? Both have friendly relations with the China and would therefore be breaking their samaya with the Dalai Lama. So why are the attitudes to each of these lamas inconsistent? Why is it permissible for one Lama to associate so closely and officially with the Chinese, but not for another? Why is it that while H.E. Gangchen Rinpoche and H.H. Gaden Trisur Rinpoche are pointedly excluded from the mainstream Tibetan community, the Karmapa is constantly being promoted and supported by the Dalai Lama and even lauded as a potential heir to him?

The double standards practiced within the CTA – and therefore upheld and supported by the Dalai Lama – are becoming increasingly obvious and clear. We point this out not to defame the Dalai Lama and his people but to request them, as leaders of the exiled Tibetan community, for a fairer way of responding and treating their own people. For it is only when they exercise true equality and grant equal basic rights and freedoms to all under their jurisdiction will the CTA begin to be respected as an independent body capable of governing their community.


H.H. Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal Rinpoche meets with the 11th Panchen Lama Gyancain Norbu

« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 12:47:41 PM by DharmaDefender »

Positive Change

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Re: The 17th Karmapa and the 11th Panchen Lama – a Chinese conspiracy?
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2013, 12:45:12 PM »
Very simple... its called selective arbitration!! Or better still, just plain inconsistent and unpredictable. Is this how a democratically elected administration acts? Especially within India, the seventh-largest country by area, the second-most populous country with over 1.2 billion people, and the most populous democracy in the world!

Such "actions" are truly a slap in one's face. One may argue that the CTA does not formally (on paper) support H.H. the 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley but by sheer association is enough to show support especially when it is something as tangible as a picture with HHDL. A picture is worth a thousand words as they say!

So where does this selective arbitation start and end? Why are some singled out while others heralded? Why are statements inconsistent coming from an administration which tries to pride itself on its democratic views and stance against human rights abuse. Is the CTA not guilty of the very crimes that it accuses China of and at the same time shake the hands that apparently are biting them? Makes no sense!

What does make sense is that the inconsistencies point out that the ban does not hold any water, that it is a mere play on a higher field... one that we may not necessarily grasp at the moment. Why I say this, because the ban has actually "advertised" Dorje Shugden through various medias and as a result has created more awareness to this practice which otherwise would have remained very much a secret practice among Tibetans alone! How else more can this be explained?

Ensapa

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Re: The 17th Karmapa and the 11th Panchen Lama – a Chinese conspiracy?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2013, 05:16:09 AM »
This is truly a weird scenario. How is it that even logical to begin with, that CTA denies China's Panchen Lama but endorses China's Karmapa? but but but but the Karmapa is kagyu and the Panchen Lama is Gelug and the CTA is Gelug?! Shouldnt CTA accept Panchen Lama and ignore the Karmapa? Why is the CTA denying their own lineage while accepting or endorsing karma kagyu? Since when did the Gelugs have the power to endorse a lineage that is not Gelug? This is again, a first for the Tibetan government. Before Tibet was conquered, the Kagyu, Nyingma and Sakya lineages were more or less ignored or suppressed. So why the sudden care now?

vajratruth

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Re: The 17th Karmapa and the 11th Panchen Lama – a Chinese conspiracy?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2013, 12:42:48 PM »
This is very confusing and the inconsistency is disturbing. In 1996 the Dalai Lama spoke against the Dorje Shugden worship and the CTA decreed a ban against the Protector practice. So intense was the Tibetan government in exile's opposition towards the Buddhist deity that many practitioners had to go into hiding for fear of their lives. It should follow that all parties related to Dorje Shugden would be shunned by the CTA seeing that they have claimed that anyone practicing Dorje Shugden is anti the Dalai Lama and also anti the Tibetan cause.

And yet both the Dalai Lama and the CTA openly support Ogyen Trinley as the 17th Karmapa who not only has strong connections in China, but also whose mentor Tai Situpa Rinpoche, is overtly pro-Chinese. In addition, Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has also endorsed the Chinese-enthroned 11th Panchen Lama who is a Dorje shugden practitioner. The traditional seat of the Panchen Lama is Tashi Lhunpo Monastery which houses a magnificent Dorje Shugden chapel [http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=10969.

None of this makes any sense. In indeed the CTA is concerned about Chinese spies infiltrating the Tibetan community to sabotage the Tibetan cause, why weren't there concerned about Ogyen Trinley and Tai Situpa Rinpoche? In addition, if all things Dorje Shugden is bad, then why support a Karmapa who supports a Panchen Lama who practices Dorje Shugden? Does that mean that the CTA is not really anti-China and anti-Dorje Shugden?

If that is case, why not bring down the Shugden ban and at the same time reconcile with China so that the Tibetans can return to their home land and practice their religion freely? The Dorje Shugden ban is such a farcical joke just the same way the CTA is making the Tibetan cause.

Q

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Re: The 17th Karmapa and the 11th Panchen Lama – a Chinese conspiracy?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2013, 04:59:44 PM »
Hahahaha... oh my very juicy article.

One thing I have never understood about the DS practitioner are Chinese spy is because of the Karmapa issue. It is so well documented and obvious that Orgyen Trinley is in favor of China... and yet the CTA is supportive of him. So what's with this double standards with DS practitioners that they are Chinese spies? Even if DS practitioners are Chinese spies (which they are not... gosh where did that idea came from...), why support the Karmapa who is also well known to be connected to the Chinese but ostracize DS practitioners? The inconsistency in CTA is truly amazing... how can such a 'confused' 'government' lead their people into independence and back to Tibet? Definitely cannot, the proof? Tibetan are still in exile even after so many years.

I'm not trying to put down the Karmapa or anything like that... in fact, I really like Orgyen Trinley. But what irks me is CTA's double standards, and I believe the Karmapa being connected to CTA in such a way is not good for the Karmapa's reputation, although I believe reputation is not something the Karmapa clings on, but to bring Dharma to many, it is much necessary... we are after all still in samsara, and the people that the Karmapa brings Dharma to are samsaric beings.

I think the Karmapa notices this and to prove His point, He so outwardly meet up with the 11th Panchen Lama to shout out to everyone in the Buddhist scenes that "Hey, although I'm closely connected to the CTA, but it doesn't mean I HAVE TO LISTEN TO THEM!"... unlike some DS practitioners who give up their DS practice at a drop of a hat which was handed down to them by their Guru! Some times it makes me think that many people that gave up DS are not truly listening to CTA, but it is for their own convenience... or else, why all the hate? Deep down, they truly regret giving up DS and they can't face themselves for it.

Another point that the article pointed out about this is about breaking samaya with the Dalai Lama... oh my goodness this is one good point. By meeting up with the Chinese declared Panchen Lama, is that not directly going against the CTA and HHDL? May I remind you, HHDL actually recognized a different Panchen Lama, which means to support the other, is that not a 'traitor' to the Tibetans? So how come DS practitioners are branded a traitor and all DS practitioners are banned from attending HHDL teachings, while Orgyen Trinley's followers and supporters are allowed to attend HHDL teachings? Didn't the Karmapa also 'break' his samaya with HHDL for supporting the Panchen Lama, just like how DS practitioners are 'claimed' to break their samaya with HHDL? Food for thought...

Seriously, I don't have any ill feelings towards the CTA (ok... perhaps a little)... but if they continue with this type of immature act outwardly especially by banning DS practitioners, the Chinese no longer have to see them as a 'threat' in a few years time coz the CTA is destroying themselves without the Chinese interfering... proof? they even lost their title as a government in exile and now know as CTA.

I know a lot of people may disagree with me, but truth is, if you want to go international... there is really no room for inconsistency or fickleness. Even down to a personal level, who would trust a fickle person? Do you think CTA will gain trust, support and help from international bodies to help them gain independence with this type of attitude??? I don't think so... there's only so long one can have sympathy for a nation that lost their country, and guess what, the sympathy is running out and it's time for CTA to buck up and stand on their own feet by being professional about things and not let personal agendas govern their 'government'. After all, if I was a president of a country, I'd be too freaking scared to help the CTA coz I never know when their fickleness will kick in and turn against me, just like what they did by banning reincarnated Tulkus and banning DS.

Big Uncle

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Re: The 17th Karmapa and the 11th Panchen Lama – a Chinese conspiracy?
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2013, 03:50:39 AM »
Hi Q,

You do have a very good points what you said here. Certain people do see the Karmapa as a possible Chinese spy because his enthronement was recognized by both the Chinese and the Dalai Lama. When the Karmapa escaped, the Chinese did little to denounce him and they continue to be quiet about the Karmapa. Hence, when the monetary scandal broke out with the Karmapa having received millions in donations and a sizable amount was Chinese currency. This alerted the Indian government as they too had suspicions on the Karmapa.

I know. There's tremendous double standards within the Tibetan community because nobody views the Karmapa as a Chinese spy but they view ALL Dorje Shugden practitioners as Chinese spies simply because the Chinese authorities are allowing the practice in Tibet and I personally think that it is easier for their simple minds to group the enemies into one camp. I am a Dorje Shugden practitioner, I wish the Chinese would pay my bills and send me to spy in Dharamsala. But then again, I am not terribly great at espionage and I can't even speak Tibetan plus I would stick out like sore thumb in Dharamsala.

All these controversies in Dharamsala is just going to make the Chinese authorities laugh and they will NEVER take the CTA seriously. I guess that's why they have not engaged in any fresh talks or negotiations even with the onslaught of the self-immolations happening across Tibet. I think the Chinese is just playing the waiting game and they are waiting for the Dalai Lama to pass on and they will pounce on the chance to declare their own incarnation of he Dalai Lama. I am sure they had been doing this for a long time, with their recognition of various tulkus like the Panchen Lama already. That is why they are really not interested to talk with CTA. They want their own Dalai Lama who is loyal to China.

Ensapa

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Re: The 17th Karmapa and the 11th Panchen Lama – a Chinese conspiracy?
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2013, 11:29:31 AM »
This is very confusing and the inconsistency is disturbing. In 1996 the Dalai Lama spoke against the Dorje Shugden worship and the CTA decreed a ban against the Protector practice. So intense was the Tibetan government in exile's opposition towards the Buddhist deity that many practitioners had to go into hiding for fear of their lives. It should follow that all parties related to Dorje Shugden would be shunned by the CTA seeing that they have claimed that anyone practicing Dorje Shugden is anti the Dalai Lama and also anti the Tibetan cause.

And yet both the Dalai Lama and the CTA openly support Ogyen Trinley as the 17th Karmapa who not only has strong connections in China, but also whose mentor Tai Situpa Rinpoche, is overtly pro-Chinese. In addition, Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has also endorsed the Chinese-enthroned 11th Panchen Lama who is a Dorje shugden practitioner. The traditional seat of the Panchen Lama is Tashi Lhunpo Monastery which houses a magnificent Dorje Shugden chapel [http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=10969.

None of this makes any sense. In indeed the CTA is concerned about Chinese spies infiltrating the Tibetan community to sabotage the Tibetan cause, why weren't there concerned about Ogyen Trinley and Tai Situpa Rinpoche? In addition, if all things Dorje Shugden is bad, then why support a Karmapa who supports a Panchen Lama who practices Dorje Shugden? Does that mean that the CTA is not really anti-China and anti-Dorje Shugden?

If that is case, why not bring down the Shugden ban and at the same time reconcile with China so that the Tibetans can return to their home land and practice their religion freely? The Dorje Shugden ban is such a farcical joke just the same way the CTA is making the Tibetan cause.


The CTA has never been concerned with the Chinese spies issue mainly because they couldnt be bothered even if there was a Chinese spy amongst their midst...they have no information China desires. There is absolutely nothing for them that China wants to know about (maybe except for the next self immolations and how to stop them) and China is well aware that if anything happens to the Dalai Lama, the world will be staring at them and they will be the enemy of the world. So why would China want to kill the Dalai Lama? It goes against their favor and they are perfectly aware. On CTA's side, the very fact that they do nothing about Tai Situpa and Orgyen Trinley and not treat them as Chinese spies is a very obvious display of hypocrisy beyond belief.

Dondrup Shugden

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What an interesting article and extremely confusing.  This shows that politics should never be mixed with religions.

Reading this article does not explain to me what is right nor what is wrong but rather resolve to be steadfast in my belief and trust of Dorje Shugden and whatever pans out politically will be beneficial to all Shugdenpas.

Nothing has changed for the situation for Shugdenpas except that we have more knowledge and any conspiracy should harm nor distract us from our spiritual path.