Author Topic: Nechung warns of natural calamity in northwest India this summer  (Read 20595 times)

DS Star

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 418
Re: Nechung warns of natural calamity in northwest India this summer
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2012, 09:13:14 AM »
This is indeed serious considering it is a natural disaster. If this prediction comes true, it will bring a lot suffering to people in India.

Nechung is not an enlightened being, I sincerely wish his prediction is not accurate.... Then again, as Tibetan government's State Oracle for so long, Nechung has his own reputation... surely he has a basis for making public this prediction. Let just hope this so-called calamity is at a very much lower scale...

It is of course very important for Tibetan government to consult other oracles as well as consulting the relevant Indian authorities based on scientific data to determine their next course of actions to prepare the Tibetan people in India to face this potential calamity.

Salute to the Japanese, their Japan Meteorological Agency constantly monitoring all signs of possible earthquake, tsunami, volcano activities etc. with modern and advanced equipment; and send out warnings accordingly. LIke this people is well prepared rather becoming panic and create chaos.

It is better to be safe than sorry.

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: Nechung warns of natural calamity in northwest India this summer
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2012, 05:56:09 AM »
It's december now and there isnt any natural disasters in India since the prediction. When is summer for India again? So again as we can witness here, Nechung is inaccurate again, but yet HHDL keeps consulting him again and again...perhaps to placate the Nyingmas or to prevent Nechung from being upset? I have no idea, but what is very clear is that all of these clues point that Nechung's time has ended and they should really just switch to Dorje Shugden already.

jessicajameson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
    • Email
Re: Nechung warns of natural calamity in northwest India this summer
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2013, 09:20:58 AM »
@Ensapa That's true, there hasn't been any natural disasters since the prediction...

I feel that by Dr Lobsang Sangay saying,  “... I will be also consulting the state oracle, but that doesn’t mean I will follow what the state-oracle says” it only works against the Tibetan Buddhist tradition as a whole. He's indirectly saying that we can consult a higher power, and not have to listen. Why even ask at all then?

It doesn't help that the Nechung oracle doesn't get his predictions and prophecies right either.

These inconsistencies further adds to creating confusion. There is already so much confusion pervading within the Tibetan community, e.g. "there are 2 karmapa's?", "there are 2 panchen lama's?", "i'm not allowed to practice DS but my root guru gave me the practice - how?", "the monastery has split, which one should i join?".

The people need a solid person that they can trust. One that is fair, unbiased, (perceived to be) of a higher power and influential. His Holiness the Dalai Lama best fits this role thus far, but ironically, He plays a part in all events of confusion. Is there a reason for this?

What will happen when the one person that all Tibetans have full faith in enters into clear light, what will happen to the people?

Zach

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 566
Re: Nechung warns of natural calamity in northwest India this summer
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2013, 09:44:30 AM »
Relying on Nechung for advise is like relying upon a worldly person for advise, His track record is disappointing. I wonder if it is actually Pehar appearing and not Ngatrul.

Big Uncle

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1995
Re: Nechung warns of natural calamity in northwest India this summer
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2013, 05:10:03 AM »
Well, to all casual observers, Nechung/Pehar seemed unenlightened and capable of making great mistakes! How can this be? According to Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's writings in Music Delighting an Ocean of Protectors pg 111, he is enlightened and is just manifesting mistakes. Check this out:-

As quoted by Lelung Shepay Dorje who kept Losel Gyatso's genuine miscellaneous writings in order, it says,

To take an example, those such as the great yaksha Tsiu Marpo and King Pehar are, in actuality, definitely Buddhas, and fully renowned as protectors of Buddha's teachings. Yet the story is told of how Pehar experienced obstacles and did not complete his Dharma practice and there are many stories of his harming Dharma practitioners. Many great beings that have gone to Samye Monastery tell of a great yaksha making them leave. As regards wrathful types of action, Ra Lotsawa did away with thirteen vajra masters such as Darma Dode with fire pujas, and all of his actions were only those of a Buddha performed with special awareness for necessary reasons. With one expression Pehar may help someone, and with another he may obstruct someone, but his actions are not conceivable to ordinary thought. When dispatched for activity, Pehar is made offerings in the aspect of a Dharma protector and requested to perform activities, while, on the other hand, the very same Pehar is often dispatched on missions in the aspect of a demon. Understanding these profound points alone is completely liberating. Still, if I am criticized because this does not conform to modern belief systems or is difficult for the Geshes to comprehend, I can only say, I am sorry.


Taking Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's writings into consideration, this leads me to think that perhaps Nechung is manifesting these mistakes for a reason. I can't say for sure what this reason is but I can tell that it is related to Dorje Shugden and how he will eventually take over to be the King of all Protectors, which is a popular Tibetan legend before the days of the Dalai Lama's ban. Just read about this interesting legend in the article Universal Protector of Future Buddhism - http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/universal-protector-of-future-buddhism/.

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: Nechung warns of natural calamity in northwest India this summer
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2013, 07:05:15 AM »
Well, to all casual observers, Nechung/Pehar seemed unenlightened and capable of making great mistakes! How can this be? According to Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's writings in Music Delighting an Ocean of Protectors pg 111, he is enlightened and is just manifesting mistakes. Check this out:-

As quoted by Lelung Shepay Dorje who kept Losel Gyatso's genuine miscellaneous writings in order, it says,

To take an example, those such as the great yaksha Tsiu Marpo and King Pehar are, in actuality, definitely Buddhas, and fully renowned as protectors of Buddha's teachings. Yet the story is told of how Pehar experienced obstacles and did not complete his Dharma practice and there are many stories of his harming Dharma practitioners. Many great beings that have gone to Samye Monastery tell of a great yaksha making them leave. As regards wrathful types of action, Ra Lotsawa did away with thirteen vajra masters such as Darma Dode with fire pujas, and all of his actions were only those of a Buddha performed with special awareness for necessary reasons. With one expression Pehar may help someone, and with another he may obstruct someone, but his actions are not conceivable to ordinary thought. When dispatched for activity, Pehar is made offerings in the aspect of a Dharma protector and requested to perform activities, while, on the other hand, the very same Pehar is often dispatched on missions in the aspect of a demon. Understanding these profound points alone is completely liberating. Still, if I am criticized because this does not conform to modern belief systems or is difficult for the Geshes to comprehend, I can only say, I am sorry.


Taking Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's writings into consideration, this leads me to think that perhaps Nechung is manifesting these mistakes for a reason. I can't say for sure what this reason is but I can tell that it is related to Dorje Shugden and how he will eventually take over to be the King of all Protectors, which is a popular Tibetan legend before the days of the Dalai Lama's ban. Just read about this interesting legend in the article Universal Protector of Future Buddhism - http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/universal-protector-of-future-buddhism/.


hmm now that you put it this way, I do concur that it could be part of a bigger plan to showcase Dorje Shugden as the supreme Dharma protector. If you read all the clues that  have been leading up until now, it all points to Dorje Shugden's rise. Nechung starts to be inaccurate in his predictions for the Ganden Phodrang. The 16th Karmapa told a nyingma temple that they would have no choice but to rely on Dorje Shugden in the future. then the ban. then the weird way that the Dalai Lama promoted the ban where he kept telling people to check and double check his words. The Dalai Lama saying that Trijang Rinpoche can practice but said his Gurus were wrong for practicing. And at 2011 he says its a choice. It seems that he is getting less and less strict about the ban...and to its eventual lifting.

Positive Change

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1008
Re: Nechung warns of natural calamity in northwest India this summer
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2013, 04:22:29 PM »
The Indian Summer has been and gone... No calamity was there? What does that say about the predictions of Nechung? Is it yet another inaccurate prediction? Why is there such a reliance on Nechung through the State Oracle by HHDL when Nechung has proved time and time again to be inaccurate?

Is it because Nechung is unenlightened and hence his clairvoyance is limited? Or is it the medium of Nechung's communication, the Oracle that is the problem? Why I say this is because, the Oracle is but a vehicle and if this vehicle is impure or polluted, the channels are open to other beings that may enter the Oracle and give these wrong predictions... The predictions of an Oracle are only as accurate as their pure states, especially so if they take trance of an unenlightened being.


NECHUNG ORACLE

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: Nechung warns of natural calamity in northwest India this summer
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2013, 07:04:51 AM »
The Indian Summer has been and gone... No calamity was there? What does that say about the predictions of Nechung? Is it yet another inaccurate prediction? Why is there such a reliance on Nechung through the State Oracle by HHDL when Nechung has proved time and time again to be inaccurate?

Is it because Nechung is unenlightened and hence his clairvoyance is limited? Or is it the medium of Nechung's communication, the Oracle that is the problem? Why I say this is because, the Oracle is but a vehicle and if this vehicle is impure or polluted, the channels are open to other beings that may enter the Oracle and give these wrong predictions... The predictions of an Oracle are only as accurate as their pure states, especially so if they take trance of an unenlightened being.


NECHUNG ORACLE


Perhaps it is a way for nechung to tell everyone to not consult him anymore? Nechung traditionally hates the ganden phodrang and historically shows a lot of disrespect to them when he takes trance but he stops when the Dalai Lama arrives. (its not a mystery why he hates them at all) so the inaccurate predictions could be mocking the CTA to make them lose face and look like backward people. The sikyong should stop consulting the medium as there are more educated Tibetans who are unhappy with this practice as it reflects the  backwardness of the CTA in general and he should focus on issues such as improving Dharamsala and getting into talks with China. Sadly, CTA until now is still very focused on Dorje Shugden. They should just stop it already. No point spending time and resources for a spiritual matter when you're a secular government.

Tenzin Gyatso

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 203
Re: Nechung warns of natural calamity in northwest India this summer
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2013, 09:35:00 AM »
Nechung can only be 'wrong' when his instructions are not fully carried out changing the course of karma or not fulfilling the course of the karma.

Karma can be changed by the infusion of merits or demerits. If after the advice is given and we continue the demerits then his prophecies cannot be fulfilled. Simple as that.

So it's not Nechung who gives wrong advice, but our lack of effort to follow instructions that allows Nechung's words to become unfulfilled. If you don't control your defilements you prove your guru and Dharma wrong-Full stop! If Nechung can be wrong, then you automatically point the finger at Guru Padmasambhava who subdued and charged Nechung to assist Tibet and the Holders of the White Lotus (HHDL). How can Guru Rinpoche be wrong. Impossible.

You claim Trijang Rinpoche cannot be wrong so that proves Dhogyal is good. By the same logic, Guru Rinpoche cannot be wrong about Nechung. Comprendi?
 :)

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: Nechung warns of natural calamity in northwest India this summer
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2013, 10:10:51 AM »
Nechung can only be 'wrong' when his instructions are not fully carried out changing the course of karma or not fulfilling the course of the karma.

Karma can be changed by the infusion of merits or demerits. If after the advice is given and we continue the demerits then his prophecies cannot be fulfilled. Simple as that.

So it's not Nechung who gives wrong advice, but our lack of effort to follow instructions that allows Nechung's words to become unfulfilled. If you don't control your defilements you prove your guru and Dharma wrong-Full stop! If Nechung can be wrong, then you automatically point the finger at Guru Padmasambhava who subdued and charged Nechung to assist Tibet and the Holders of the White Lotus (HHDL). How can Guru Rinpoche be wrong. Impossible.

You claim Trijang Rinpoche cannot be wrong so that proves Dhogyal is good. By the same logic, Guru Rinpoche cannot be wrong about Nechung. Comprendi?
 :)

Well like ive said it could be that Nechung is being "wrong" to prove a point. Maybe he is wrong on purpose to showcase Dorje Shugden perhaps? Or that he is 'wrong' to show his displeasure to the CTA for their wrongdoings over the centuries. The other question is that Nechung is not enlightened. Guru Rinpoche put him under an oath to protect the Dharma holder of Tibet. If Nechung was not serving the Dharma wholeheartedly he would not have asked Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen to manifest as a Dharma protector as Dorje Shugden. Why would he be against a Dharma protector that he 'created'?

Also, how can you explain this, Tenzin Gyatso? I would like to hear how you reconcile this prophecy by Pehar/Nechung:

Quote
Pehar's Warning For Vengeance:
 
It is true that the oracle god has sworn an oath of loyalty, but it is — in the lamas’ opinion — by no means ruled out that he may one day break this and unleash his full vengeance upon the Tibetans who defeated him in times gone by. He has in his own words explained to Padmasambhava what will then happen. He will destroy the houses and the fields. The children of the Land of Snows will have to endure famine and will be driven insane. The fruit of the and will be destroyed by hail and swarms of insects. The strong will be carried off and only the weak shall survive. Wars shall devastate the roof of the world. Pehar himself will interrupt the meditations of the lamas, rob their spells of their magic power, and force them to commit suicide. Brothers will rape their sisters. He will make the wisdom consorts (the mudras) of the tantra masters bad and heretical, yes, transform them into enemies of the teaching who emigrate to the lands of the unbelievers. But first he shall copulate with them. “I,” Pehar proclaims, “the lord of the temples, the stupas and scriptures, I shall possess the fair bodies of all virgins” (source: Sierksma, 1966, p. 165).


dsiluvu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1272
Re: Nechung warns of natural calamity in northwest India this summer
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2013, 09:33:52 PM »
Nechung can only be 'wrong' when his instructions are not fully carried out changing the course of karma or not fulfilling the course of the karma.

Karma can be changed by the infusion of merits or demerits. If after the advice is given and we continue the demerits then his prophecies cannot be fulfilled. Simple as that.

So it's not Nechung who gives wrong advice, but our lack of effort to follow instructions that allows Nechung's words to become unfulfilled. If you don't control your defilements you prove your guru and Dharma wrong-Full stop! If Nechung can be wrong, then you automatically point the finger at Guru Padmasambhava who subdued and charged Nechung to assist Tibet and the Holders of the White Lotus (HHDL). How can Guru Rinpoche be wrong. Impossible.

You claim Trijang Rinpoche cannot be wrong so that proves Dhogyal is good. By the same logic, Guru Rinpoche cannot be wrong about Nechung. Comprendi?
 :)

Quote
If Nechung was not serving the Dharma wholeheartedly he would not have asked Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen to manifest as a Dharma protector as Dorje Shugden. Why would he be against a Dharma protector that he 'created'?
[/size]

Yes indeed... if Nechung cannot be wrong... Hence Dorje Shugden which was requested by Nechung to arise and protect the great teachings of the middle view, Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings, then, we could say Dorje Shugden is not wrong for sure!


So therefore Dorje Shugden a protector that was indirectly created by Nechung, definitely would be okay, isn't it when we based on logic? Can this part on Nechug be explained... one minute he is right, next he is wrong.

And how would we know who's who when Nechung takes trance through the oracle? There are basically 5 powerful spirits, Pehar being the leader of all 5, so how do you know if it is Nechung who enters the oracle it could also be something/someone else, who's to know really? After all he is a "spirit" and still unenlightened???!

 

diamond girl

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: Nechung warns of natural calamity in northwest India this summer
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2013, 10:18:38 PM »
Firstly, Lobsang Sangay needs to really use his Harvard education to make a firm stand in his stance. He either believes and consults the Oracle or none at all. What nonsense to say I will consult but may not follow. What is he saying? Let's test our faith is it? Personally to me I would not have any confidence on any leader whose stance is so wishy-washy...

Now as for the predictions of Nechung, he has been right before when his predicament saved the population of Tibetan capital from being poisoned by members of Nepalese community. On the other hand, he also made some predictions which were wrong and saved by Dorje Shugden prediction. This being the case of HHDL escape from Tibet during invasion by the Chinese. If they had followed Nechung's advise there will be no HHDL today.

There are many arguments in favor and against. I like this link, please read and decide for yourself:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/tibets-freedom-is-near/

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: Nechung warns of natural calamity in northwest India this summer
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2013, 05:16:38 AM »
Firstly, Lobsang Sangay needs to really use his Harvard education to make a firm stand in his stance. He either believes and consults the Oracle or none at all. What nonsense to say I will consult but may not follow. What is he saying? Let's test our faith is it? Personally to me I would not have any confidence on any leader whose stance is so wishy-washy...

Now as for the predictions of Nechung, he has been right before when his predicament saved the population of Tibetan capital from being poisoned by members of Nepalese community. On the other hand, he also made some predictions which were wrong and saved by Dorje Shugden prediction. This being the case of HHDL escape from Tibet during invasion by the Chinese. If they had followed Nechung's advise there will be no HHDL today.

There are many arguments in favor and against. I like this link, please read and decide for yourself:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/tibets-freedom-is-near/


Lobsang Sanggay should take a stand. It's either that he presents himself as a well educated harvard graduate or he sticks by the traditional rules and traditions. He cant be in between and choose to follow the traditions. If he chooses to follow the traditional methods, he would disappoint many a Tibetan who would hope that he would be different from the others. But it has been more than a year now and he also has not done much to reform the CTA and also improve the conditions in Dharamsala. The very least he could do would be to lift the Dorje Shugden ban. But even that he is unable to do at all.

harrynephew

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 411
  • Love Shugden, Love all Lamas, Heal the World!
    • Email
Re: Nechung warns of natural calamity in northwest India this summer
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2013, 05:06:02 PM »
Firstly, Lobsang Sangay needs to really use his Harvard education to make a firm stand in his stance. He either believes and consults the Oracle or none at all. What nonsense to say I will consult but may not follow. What is he saying? Let's test our faith is it? Personally to me I would not have any confidence on any leader whose stance is so wishy-washy...

Now as for the predictions of Nechung, he has been right before when his predicament saved the population of Tibetan capital from being poisoned by members of Nepalese community. On the other hand, he also made some predictions which were wrong and saved by Dorje Shugden prediction. This being the case of HHDL escape from Tibet during invasion by the Chinese. If they had followed Nechung's advise there will be no HHDL today.

There are many arguments in favor and against. I like this link, please read and decide for yourself:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/news/tibets-freedom-is-near/


I just realized something here.......That a person of "callibre" such as the sikyong's attitude towards the divine is just for reference here. Given that Guru Rinpoche has entrusted his orders and oath on Nechung to help the Dalai Lama and of course the Tibetan Government, it is the Guru's orders that binds Nechung to give accurate prophecies which is suppose to help the cause of Tibet. Yet at this juncture, we see that these pronouncements are just taken with pails of salt by the very people whom they are entrusted to!

No wonder so many high Lamas of the Gelug order do not propitiate or consult Nechung. The risk is too high for spiritual matters to go through him. It is only fair and just that a protector of the lineage such as Dorje Shugden be consulted And when consulted, the answers works wonders for the devotee as they come from none other than Manjushri himself!

As such these answers are taken to heart and the result will show with time and devotion. This sends out the message that followers of Dorje Shugden are actually upholding this tradition of having oracles which are effective in bringing out the best in both our spiritual and secular undertakings.

We should not take Dorje Shugden just as reference but should take them dearly to heart. It could only mean that he wants the best for us like a father for his only child.
Harry Nephew

Love Shugden, Love all Lamas, Heal the World!

diamond girl

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: Nechung warns of natural calamity in northwest India this summer
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2013, 05:36:05 PM »
Dear All,

I have a question... We know of many mistakes, or inaccuracies, with the predicaments by Nechung who was subdued by the powerful enlightened Guru Rinpoche. Based on this I would like to believe that Nechung is powerful. I have also read that other spirits can also enter the Nechung oracle giving very detrimental results. How is this possible? Is the oracle contaminated? If so, then is it the fault of Nechung or the corrupted oracle that many predictions have gone wrong?

What are your views?