Author Topic: Possession by Dorje Shugden - The Oracle: Reflections on Self  (Read 8447 times)

WisdomBeing

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Possession by Dorje Shugden - The Oracle: Reflections on Self
« on: February 18, 2012, 09:52:16 PM »
I found this interesting article about someone who tried to invoke Dorje Shugden to possess him. I don't believe for a moment that it was Dorje Shugden because i have read that for oracles to take trance of Dorje Shugden, they need to undergo many retreats and keep many vows. Also that Dorje Shugden's energy is so powerful that when the great king does come through the oracle, he only stays for an extremely short time as the energy is too powerful for a human body.

Read this for a "Brilliant explanation on ORACLES" http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=826.msg9338#msg9338


Possession By Dorje Shugden
http://oeith.co.uk/2012/02/14/possession-by-dorje-shugden/

February 14, 2012 by Duncan
The Oracle: Reflections on Self (2010) is a film documentary by David Cherniak that investigates the use of spirit oracles within Tibetan Buddhism. It records how specially trained monastics regularly perform ceremonies during which they are possessed by spirits from the Tibetan pantheon, who are consulted for political and spiritual advice by the Dalai Lama and other senior figures within the tradition. The film includes footage of a mediums recognised as the State Oracle of Tibet. In 1988, Cherniak was the first person allowed to film the State Oracle during a ceremony. Shortly after the spirit had possessed its host, Cherniak happened to catch the medium’s eye and was thrown off his feet by an inexplicable force. The film is partly an attempt to frame an explanation for this experience.

In passing, the film refers to the current controversy (schism, some might say) within the Tibetan tradition regarding Dorje Shugden. This spirit is regarded as a dharma protector by a sizeable community within the tradition. These are spirits that guard Tibetan Buddhism, its practices and adherents. They are a species of ‘wrathful deities’, entities that take on a fierce and frightening manifestation in order to lead sentient beings to enlightenment. However, although all dharma protectors are wrathful deities, supposedly not all of them are of the same calibre. Some are ‘worldly spirits’ who protect the dharma only in a material sense (by manifesting wealth, for instance), acting because they are bound by an oath, rather than as an expression of their enlightened nature. A sizeable community within the Tibetan tradition regards Dorje Shugden as an enlightened being, whereas the rest – the Dalai Lama amongst them – views him as a ‘worldly spirit’.

The Oracle - A 400 Year Old Secret - HD

The Oracle: Reflections on Self, a film by David Cherniak (2010). (54 mins).

Like many religious disagreements, to an outsider it looks as if it’s really about organisational politics, rather than anything of doctrinal importance. It’s a widely repeated story that the Dalai Lama’s escape from Tibet in 1959 succeeded because of help received from an oracle possessed by Dorje Shugden. Even if this is the case, which seems quite possible, it does not contradict the view that Dorje Shugden is a worldly spirit, protecting the dharma by material means. Cherniak interviews the Dalai Lama in his film concerning the nature of oracles and their supposed accuracy, to which the Dalai Lama gives a strikingly pragmatic and open-minded response.

Intrigued by this, I decided to attempt possession by Dorje Shugden for myself, to see if I could determine one way or the other his nature. It had been quite a while since I had done any possession work, which is perhaps the most daunting tool in the magickian’s kitbag, but I was keen to see if I’d become any better at it.

There was a group of us. We had a photograph of Dorje Shugden, a singing bowl, some Tibetan cymbals, and – although it wasn’t made from a human thigh-bone – a short, didgeridoo-like trumpet, which certainly sounded the part. The company sat in a circle and I took up the centre. I issued them with a vajra, a symbol of spiritual power and enlightenment, which they could use as a blasting-rod if the spirit turned out to be ill-dignified or unruly. We used the classic Tibetan mantra OM HAH HUM to build up a trancey atmosphere.

Whilst the mantra and the musical instruments did their thing, I performed breath of fire, flexing my pelvic floor and abdominal muscles to build energy, and draw it up toward the higher chakras. I kept my eyes closed throughout until, suddenly, I felt something sweep up and over me, and I fell backwards. I could feel my spine and limbs going into spasm.

It was not that I became unaware of what was happening. Instead, I felt a definite urge to do certain things, make movements, utter sounds, but I could not identify these as coming clearly from myself. I could hear the questions asked by the group, but no words, symbols or meanings arose in me as a response. There were, however, clear and strong impulses to make twisting, spasmodic movements, grunting sounds and enraged cries. I felt a constant, pronounced sensation of fear. Afterwards, one of the participants remarked that it seemed as if the entity were used to persecution. It had acted fearful and enraged, as if it were expecting ill-treatment.

The results were disappointing in terms of communication, but it was certainly the most powerful possession I’d undergone. Afterwards, unexpectedly, I felt ill and shaken. I was nauseous and light-headed. It was a trial to get through the other rituals we’d planned for the evening. We banished thoroughly, of course, but I still felt fragile, as if whatever had taken control might suddenly decide to come back.

After I arrived home, I spent a disturbed night. The feeling persisted of something encroaching. I dreamt of walking into a dark room, which I had presumed was empty, but then there was a slight movement, and I realised someone was hiding. Terrified, I dashed outside, and then awoke. Towards morning, a bolt of orgasmic energy shot through my body and I cried out, suddenly wide awake.

Thankfully, the feeling of strangeness and vulnerability wore off gradually and by lunchtime the next day it was gone.

The mediums in Cherniak’s film uniformly claimed they had no memory whatsoever of their possession by spirits. Certainly, I could remember the gist of what had happened. But the impulses I’d had, I still didn’t recognise as my own. Perhaps when mediums say they have ‘no memory’, they might mean something similar: that what happened can be stated, but can’t be recognised as a part of the time-stream we call ‘ours’. In that sense, indeed I had no memory, because what I did in that time wasn’t ‘mine’, although I recall what those things were.

Other questions remain. Most of the participants concluded that the spirit was not Dorje Shugden but something else, given the lack of communication. Yet our magickal intent was to contact him and no other. Or if it was Dorje Shugden, then perhaps I wasn’t capable of channelling him fully, and what manifested was only an aspect.

At face value, it seems that Dorje Shugden is a wrathful deity, a dharma protector perhaps, but of a primitive type, who seems fearful of persecution and abuse. The problem is, to what extent is this ‘face value’ the whole picture?
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Poonlarp

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Re: Possession by Dorje Shugden - The Oracle: Reflections on Self
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2012, 08:08:15 AM »
Nice video.

But I don't agree for the part they talk about Dorje Shugden.

My friend did some research regards the history of Tibet, especially the exile part. He interviewed a monk who was in the troop to escort Dalai Lama from Lhasa to Dharamsara.

The monk said, it's Dorje Shugden who took trance to advice Dalai Lama to leave Tibet, and promised to protect the exile journey. The oracle was in the troop too. When they came to junction or need to decide which way or direction to take during the journey, the Dorje Shugden came and point to the right direction through the oracle as a medium.

It's Dorje Shugden that protect Dalai Lama and lead him to spread Dharma to the world. I believe Dalai Lama is in the heart of Dorje Shugden, why does he want harm Dalai Lama now? Why did Dorje Shugden saying something to harm the Buddhadharma if he did such a good job protecting the Dharma? 

hope rainbow

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Re: Possession by Dorje Shugden - The Oracle: Reflections on Self
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2012, 03:01:49 PM »
I have been warned a number of times not to experiment with opening up ourselves to be "possessed", or even fake possession, even if it is directed towards an enlightened being like Dorje Shugden, for how to be sure that Dorje Shugden will come if the motivation is incorrect, if the procedure is faulty and if the body is not ready. And in this case, if "something" comes it may be harmful!

If a group of yoga practitioners with some kind of only partial knoweldge are "trying it out", why would Dorje Shugden come? This is not a game or a matter for experiences to talk about new-age TV programs. Dorje Shugden is a bodhisattva, He is a buddha, it sounds kind of silly to just treat Him only like a curiosity, just like a WIJA board kind of experiment...

This must be done with proper training and proper motivation or else it can open up possibilities for us to be possessed by unwelcome "guests", because we have opened a chanel for them to "enter". Brrrr...


vajratruth

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Re: Possession by Dorje Shugden - The Oracle: Reflections on Self
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2012, 05:41:13 PM »
I very much doubt that anyone can summon Dorje Shugden or indeed any Protector to take trance just like that.

From what I understand, candidates to be trained as an Oracles are divinely chosen. The training to be an Oracle takes years and ritual purifications by high incarnate Lamas and even some other Oracles. It would be very wrong to infer that Dorje Shugden is some sort of worldly spirit that anyone can take a plug-ang-play approach to.

Dorje Shugden has been proven to be an Enlightened Protector. Remember that when the powerful ritualist Mingling Terchen failed to exorcize Dorje Shugden by fire pujas, a ritual where the Lama would put the spirit on a ladle and then pour it into a ritual fire thereby exorcizing it. In the case of Dorje Shugden, each time they tipped the ladle into the fire, Manjushri in its fiercest emanation of Yamantaka would appear in the fire and jump back into the ladle. The Protector Lord Setrab who is the emanation of another Buddha Amitabha.

Both Manjushri and Amitabha are Buddhas who have sworn to the Victorious One that they will preserve and protect the Buddha Dharma. An oath that both the Buddhas acted upon when they intervened in the failed fire exorcism  to get rid of Dorje Shugden.

The exorcism failed even though it was performed by a very powerful Lama, very simply because you cannot subdue a Buddha. There are no other instances that I am aware of where Buddhas appeared to rescue what is a supposed to be a malevolent spirit.

Ensapa

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Re: Possession by Dorje Shugden - The Oracle: Reflections on Self
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2012, 07:34:14 AM »
I am quite amused by the post because it does not sound like a valid medium who is even capable of taking trance in the first place. People who are able to take trance know that it is not that easy to invoke a deity, you cannot invoke a deity that you do not have any affinity for when it comes to the unenlightened deities. Secondly, not everyone can be a medium. In the video, like what the Dalai Lama had said, certain people are born with the affinity to be a medium and it is very hard to train as one if you do not have that. Lastly, to be a medium even for the worldly deities or spirits, there must be a familiarity of sorts with the beings that you are about to channel. You need to know and identify who is coming through and not just to have affinity. Certainly this person does not have any of those three.

What he described in the post is him opening his chakras which is a very, very dangerous thing to do because once it is opened it can cause all sorts of negative beings to enter and take advantage of that person, perhaps confusing him or her even further or causing actual harm. These entities can also masquerade as higher beings to trick the medium into accepting them. In this guy's case, if you're not born with the tendency to channel spirits, the opening of the chakras cannot help much. Negative entities dont have to take control, they just reside in a certain part of his mind and create havoc for his life if they choose to, so it is rather dangerous.

The oracles needs at least 5 years of continuous training from a qualified teacher before they can take trance properly. I have heard that training for trance, other than for retreats is a very grueling process as enlightened beings such as Dorje Shugden and Setrap need the channels to be wide enough to fit their energies in. For that to happen, the lesser entourage of the being will take trance continuously day and night to the oracle to dilate and unblock the channels and it can be very painful and grueling for the oracle as it would be painful, and there will be a lot of screaming. It can happen up to 24 hours a day, non stop.

My opinion is, whatever that entered that guy was not Dorje Shugden but some kind of lesser, malicious being who wanted to play a prank on him or who wanted to use him for other purposes. The dream he received was just a warning that he should not dabble in things he does not have any experience in or know about as it could be dangerous. I have no idea why would some people want to dabble in things like that, especially with no proper research, as it can be very dangerous indeed. I find the act of trying to channel Dorje Shugden very amusing, because there is no way you can do what took the oracles 5 years of intense training and retreats by emulating what was watched on video. but what this person is doing is potentially harmful to himself and the people around him, if the wrong spirit takes trance.

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Re: Possession by Dorje Shugden - The Oracle: Reflections on Self
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2012, 09:43:45 AM »
Please correct me if i'm wrong, from what i've learned so far :

1. The person who wants to take trance of DS must have permission from his Guru or Lama.
2. This person must have very good Guru Samaya.
3. There's a long list of vows that this person needs to hold.
4. This person must go through intense retreats and trainings under a qualified Guru / Lama to get his channels cleared and cleaned.

If one can take trance so easily, is it truly the King DS??

michaela

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Re: Possession by Dorje Shugden - The Oracle: Reflections on Self
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2012, 01:13:06 AM »
I am very new to this Oracle phenomena.  I have heard about them in the past and was dragged by some of my relatives to visit "Oracle" as a child.  It did not leave much impression.

Then I started to learn about them, serious Oracles that took possessions of Dharma Protectors.  Some are real Dharma Protectors and others are merely spirits.  With spirits, especially, those who are not oath bound by a Lama, why so many people are consulting them?  Their intention could not be assured in advising one persons.

Why High Lamas, enlightened Lama, are known to be consulting Oracles?  They are omnicients.  I understand that in the case of Nechung and HHDL, perhaps HHDL was giving opportunities for Nechung to serve the Lama.  But what would be the purpose of enlightened Lama consulting enlightened protectors via Oracle? 

icy

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Re: Possession by Dorje Shugden - The Oracle: Reflections on Self
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2012, 04:40:58 AM »
Tibetan Oracle dates way back to Tibetan pre-Buddhist period, the shamanistic period of the Bon religion.  The mediums are mouthpieces of exceedingly numerous class of protective deities which are enlightened and unenlightened ones.  The enlightened deities are guardians of Buddhist teachings such as Dorje Shugden, Palden Lhamo, Setrap; while unenlightened protective deities can be from the Pehar classes of spirit bound by oath to protect Buddhist teaching such as Nechung.

It would be most interesting to know why Dalai Lama who is Chenrizig is relying on Nechung for wisdom and prophecies and not Dorje Shugden or Palden Llamo.



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Re: Possession by Dorje Shugden - The Oracle: Reflections on Self
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2012, 10:01:12 AM »
I found this interesting article about someone who tried to invoke Dorje Shugden to possess him. I don't believe for a moment that it was Dorje Shugden because i have read that for oracles to take trance of Dorje Shugden, they need to undergo many retreats and keep many vows. Also that Dorje Shugden's energy is so powerful that when the great king does come through the oracle, he only stays for an extremely short time as the energy is too powerful for a human body.

Intrigued by this, I decided to attempt possession by Dorje Shugden for myself, to see if I could determine one way or the other his nature. It had been quite a while since I had done any possession work, which is perhaps the most daunting tool in the magickian’s kitbag, but I was keen to see if I’d become any better at it.

There was a group of us. We had a photograph of Dorje Shugden, a singing bowl, some Tibetan cymbals, and – although it wasn’t made from a human thigh-bone – a short, didgeridoo-like trumpet, which certainly sounded the part. The company sat in a circle and I took up the centre. I issued them with a vajra, a symbol of spiritual power and enlightenment, which they could use as a blasting-rod if the spirit turned out to be ill-dignified or unruly. We used the classic Tibetan mantra OM HAH HUM to build up a trancey atmosphere.

Whilst the mantra and the musical instruments did their thing, I performed breath of fire, flexing my pelvic floor and abdominal muscles to build energy, and draw it up toward the higher chakras. I kept my eyes closed throughout until, suddenly, I felt something sweep up and over me, and I fell backwards. I could feel my spine and limbs going into spasm.

It was not that I became unaware of what was happening. Instead, I felt a definite urge to do certain things, make movements, utter sounds, but I could not identify these as coming clearly from myself. I could hear the questions asked by the group, but no words, symbols or meanings arose in me as a response. There were, however, clear and strong impulses to make twisting, spasmodic movements, grunting sounds and enraged cries. I felt a constant, pronounced sensation of fear. Afterwards, one of the participants remarked that it seemed as if the entity were used to persecution. It had acted fearful and enraged, as if it were expecting ill-treatment.

The results were disappointing in terms of communication, but it was certainly the most powerful possession I’d undergone. Afterwards, unexpectedly, I felt ill and shaken. I was nauseous and light-headed. It was a trial to get through the other rituals we’d planned for the evening. We banished thoroughly, of course, but I still felt fragile, as if whatever had taken control might suddenly decide to come back.

After I arrived home, I spent a disturbed night. The feeling persisted of something encroaching. I dreamt of walking into a dark room, which I had presumed was empty, but then there was a slight movement, and I realised someone was hiding. Terrified, I dashed outside, and then awoke. Towards morning, a bolt of orgasmic energy shot through my body and I cried out, suddenly wide awake.

Thankfully, the feeling of strangeness and vulnerability wore off gradually and by lunchtime the next day it was gone.

The mediums in Cherniak’s film uniformly claimed they had no memory whatsoever of their possession by spirits. Certainly, I could remember the gist of what had happened. But the impulses I’d had, I still didn’t recognise as my own. Perhaps when mediums say they have ‘no memory’, they might mean something similar: that what happened can be stated, but can’t be recognised as a part of the time-stream we call ‘ours’. In that sense, indeed I had no memory, because what I did in that time wasn’t ‘mine’, although I recall what those things were.

Other questions remain. Most of the participants concluded that the spirit was not Dorje Shugden but something else, given the lack of communication. Yet our magickal intent was to contact him and no other. Or if it was Dorje Shugden, then perhaps I wasn’t capable of channelling him fully, and what manifested was only an aspect.

At face value, it seems that Dorje Shugden is a wrathful deity, a dharma protector perhaps, but of a primitive type, who seems fearful of persecution and abuse. The problem is, to what extent is this ‘face value’ the whole picture?

Having read what this guy is trying to do. It is rather obvious what he tried to conjure up during his transe session is rather ridiculous. In any form of Tantric ritual, three things must be authenticated and present with the correct motivation:

1. The authenticity of the Deity (regardless if it is the Guru, Yidam or Protector)
2. The authenticity of the Liturgy (stemming from Buddha Shakyamuni, or the Yidam, there should be proper record of the correct means of performing the ritual. From the placement of the offerings, regalia and up to the texts recited. Buddhas are compassionate on their own end but it does not mean that we should take them forgranted without going through the proper procedure
3. The validity of the Lineage (this is very important because whatever we are practicing comes from a source valid through the years and is tested for its potency by high Lamas)

If these three are not present in any form of puja(in this case a trance) then it cannot be followed suit as we are only damaging our practices and degenerating the Dharma and all that comes along with it.

Harry Nephew

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Re: Possession by Dorje Shugden - The Oracle: Reflections on Self
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2012, 12:08:22 PM »
It is interesting to see so much international interest in Dorje Shugden as a direct or indirect result of the ban. He appeared on the cover of Time Magazine and now, a strange western medium is trying to take trance of him, perhaps, with hopes to see for himself, what the fuss is all about. Before the ban, nobody really cared much about Dorje Shugden or any of the obscure Tibetan deities. The ban have sort of elevated him to international superstardom. Perhaps, Dorje Shugden is now as famous or more famous then Guru Rinpoche and Lama Tsongkhapa.

The curiosity would not end here, as more and more people find out for themselves who or what Dorje Shugden is, the oppressed practitioners work tirelessly to reveal his true identity. All in the name of bringing justice to uplift the ban and to in some strange way, fulfill the Dalai Lama's secret wishes with the ban. That's of course my speculation but that's how I see it with this interesting extract. I hope someone should relay the prerequisites towards taking an authentic trance of Dorje Shugden.

Does anybody remember? If I am not mistaken, Tk posted it on the forum not too long ago but I can't seem to find it.   

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Re: Possession by Dorje Shugden - The Oracle: Reflections on Self
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2012, 10:12:23 PM »
Dorje Shugden is actually now more famous and widespread now as crusaders from the Dalai Lama's camp keep mentioning his name and right now, it has become synonymous with the Dalai Lama. Every time there is an interview with the Dalai Lama, there is always a very high chance that Dorje Shugden is mentioned, like how will the Dalai Lama address these people, what does he think (although he has mentioned the same reason why so many times in so many different interviews, yet people still ask haha) and those get published to press.

It is clear that Dorje Shugden has caught the attention of new age people. Maybe in time he might make his way in new age bookstores where there is a Dorje Shugden divination kit like those tarot box sets or healing cards as more and more people discover that he is actually quite useful and effective. As for us, although Dorje Shugden can help us a lot with samsaric matters we must always request for enlightenment instead of fleeting worldly success.

Looking back at that attempt to take trance, it was quite funny that he thought that music alone could do it. No prayers were read and he only played the ceremonial music. Didn't he notice that the ritual itself required reading certain prayers and didn't he hear that the oracles require intense training before they can take trance?

The Dalai Lama is deliberately talking about Dorje Shugden in this way to garner more attention to him as people nowadays prefer to pay attention to negativity than to positivity. I don't think it is a secret wish, it is a very obvious one and people who do not see this would really be missing out a lot when the ban gets lifted in 3 years.

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Re: Possession by Dorje Shugden - The Oracle: Reflections on Self
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2012, 12:33:47 AM »
Very interesting video.

I learned several points from the video :
1) there is this powerful energy from the formless realms that can be harnessed .
2) like atomic power, this energy can be used for virtuous or non virtuous purposes, depending on the user's motivation. This is very clearly highlighted by Ngari Rinpoche ( HHDL's younger brother, also believed to be a reincarnate of TDG)
3) when highly attained person like HHDL consults the State Oracle for help, he still uses his own intelligence and wisdom in the final decision making. Another person in the video voiced out his concern and the danger of pushing personal responsibility when decision is based completely on oracle's advice.

I like what HHDL said - not believing the power and existence of the oracles is one extreme, total reliance on oracular advices is another extreme. I hope HH is as open minded and adopts the middle view with DS practitioners.

WisdomBeing

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Re: Possession by Dorje Shugden - The Oracle: Reflections on Self
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2012, 03:56:55 PM »
I hope someone should relay the prerequisites towards taking an authentic trance of Dorje Shugden.

Does anybody remember? If I am not mistaken, Tk posted it on the forum not too long ago but I can't seem to find it.


Dear Big Uncle,

Are you referring to this thread, What is the process of taking trance of DS? (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=1063.0), where TK mentions the following qualifications:

Prior to Official Recoginition as Oracle:

The Training of the selected individual.

1. Migtseyma full length retreat (extensive form) minimum 1,000,000 mantras.
2. Full lengh Yamantaka retreat/fire puja.
3. Full length Hayagriva retreat/fire puja (optional)
4. full length Dorje Shugden retreat/fire puja
5. Tsagoo (opening of Channels and meridians by a Lama) (Dagom Rinpoche did tsagoo for the oracle of Gaden. Trijang Rinpoche performed tsagoo on Sera's current oracle. Dungkar Oracle had tsagoo done by the previous Domo Geshe Rinpoche)
6. Restricted diet free from meat, eggs, alcohol, garlic, smoking (at least during training). Both monk and lay persons may become oracles.

The above is done over and again depending on the capacity of the oracle. Some can take trance faster, some take more time.  Some can take trance within a year, some five. It is dependent on the oracle. The whole procedure is overseen by a Lama from beginning to full completion of training.

After the Oracle is trained and ready. Then the oracle is officially recognized by the Monastic officials.

Approximate Trance procedure:

1. Oracle will be requested to take trance officially. Can be from lay officials, High lamas, Monastic officials, Sangha, lay persons, etc.
2. The throne area is set up with the oracle clothes. The area purified with Sang Kampa/juniper powder incense.
3. Long horns blown to announce the arrival of the Great King Dorje Shugen who will enter the oracle that particular day.
4. Oracle arrives. Dresses. Makes Serkym offerings of golden drink. Takes his place on the throne among the assembly.
5. Monks, invocation master and ritual assistants will recite:
  A. Gaden Hlagyema
  B. Self Generation of Yamantaka
  C. Purification of environment (from Shugden Kangsol)
  D. Generation of Shugden, Palace and environment (kangsol)
  E. Actual invocation of King Dorje Shugden, at which time the oracle will have clear visualization of himself as Yamantaka within the divine palace in order to 'protect' his meridians and enhance the entry of King of Dorje Shugden into his awaiting oracular vessel.(kangsol)
  F. Shugden Enters
  G. The sponsors, officials, guests will offer tea to Shugden, then if available offer tsok directly to Shugden.
  H.  Khatas, offerings, questions are offered up to Shugden which will be answered one by one.
Answers recorded by a trained scribe. Later answers will be checked and sealed by the office of the oracle and given.
  I.  Prophecies, answers, advice that are general will be read out to the sangha.
  J. Final offering of tea, and Shugden will take leave of his oracle.


The above is an approximation of the procedures, sometimes there are variations depending on the situation, crowd, oracle and lama.

TK
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

WisdomBeing

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Re: Possession by Dorje Shugden - The Oracle: Reflections on Self
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2012, 04:22:31 PM »
I am very new to this Oracle phenomena.  I have heard about them in the past and was dragged by some of my relatives to visit "Oracle" as a child.  It did not leave much impression.

Then I started to learn about them, serious Oracles that took possessions of Dharma Protectors.  Some are real Dharma Protectors and others are merely spirits.  With spirits, especially, those who are not oath bound by a Lama, why so many people are consulting them?  Their intention could not be assured in advising one persons.

Why High Lamas, enlightened Lama, are known to be consulting Oracles?  They are omnicients.  I understand that in the case of Nechung and HHDL, perhaps HHDL was giving opportunities for Nechung to serve the Lama.  But what would be the purpose of enlightened Lama consulting enlightened protectors via Oracle?

i have had the same thought myself and have asked a few people who are more knowledgeable than i. The response I had received was that High Lamas would consult oracles because people may not have enough faith in the High Lama and disbelieve the advice given by the High Lama because of our deluded minds. We may not be able to perceive the High Lama as an enlightened being, whereas if the advice looks like it comes from an enlightened deity such as a dharma protector, lay people are more inclined to believe what the oracle says. Even if the lay people have faith in the Lama, they may not have full faith and the confirmation by the dharma protector via an oracle provides more confidence. What do you think?
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

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Re: Possession by Dorje Shugden - The Oracle: Reflections on Self
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2012, 11:08:40 AM »
From where I come from, mediums and oracles are commonplace which is why I am not surprised to learn about them in Tibetan Buddhism. However, the mediums i know are channeling spirits who really wish to benefit others with their powers and abilities. There was a case where the spirit channeled was that of a surgeon whom, after his death still wished to benefit others and became a spirit. He helped healed many people through a medium before he took rebirth. The medium made a lot of money but after the spirit was gone he tried to channel random spirits and got less money. He died of an accident, as I have heard.

I wish to add and explain to what WisdomBeing had said. Sometimes, it is difficult for certain people to believe the advice of a single person wholeheartedly without any other supporters. This is why Kings and rulers have ministers to support their decision and power, and in big companies it is usually supported by a board of directors and the actual president or boss rarely makes or enforces decisions alone.

It is due to this limiting factor that are naturally present in humans, that the Lama has to resort to such methods to convince them. Sometimes, the people may think "This lama speaks so far-fetchedly, we need a 3rd opinion to confirm our trust in him!" Because of this the Lama compassionately seeks the help of an oracle to help dispel such doubts as he cannot do this alone.

This is just another example of how the Lama kindly finds ways to work around the weaknesses of the students that he reaches out to.