Author Topic: What is the process of taking trance of DS?  (Read 40908 times)

Roberto

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What is the process of taking trance of DS?
« on: February 07, 2011, 02:32:07 AM »
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I watched this before and saw that at the begininng around 0.29secs, the oracle is sitting infront of the altar. What is the process of taking trance?

I mean, the oracle doesn't just come in put on the clothes then sit on the throne waiting for something to happen. Is it a special occasion that the oracle takes trance, or is it like a department of the monastery that serves the public and sangha in providing answers to tough questions?

I'm sure somebody here has attended a trance session.

Please share :)

LosangKhyentse

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Re: What is the process of taking trance of DS?
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2011, 08:11:35 AM »
Prior to Official Recoginition as Oracle:

The Training of the selected individual.


1. Migtseyma full length retreat (extensive form) minimum 1,000,000 mantras.
2. Full lengh Yamantaka retreat/fire puja.
3. Full length Hayagriva retreat/fire puja (optional)
4. full length Dorje Shugden retreat/fire puja
5. Tsagoo (opening of Channels and meridians by a Lama) (Dagom Rinpoche did tsagoo for the oracle of Gaden. Trijang Rinpoche performed tsagoo on Sera's current oracle. Dungkar Oracle had tsagoo done by the previous Domo Geshe Rinpoche)
6. Restricted diet free from meat, eggs, alcohol, garlic, smoking (at least during training). Both monk and lay persons may become oracles.

The above is done over and again depending on the capacity of the oracle. Some can take trance faster, some take more time.  Some can take trance within a year, some five. It is dependent on the oracle. The whole procedure is overseen by a Lama from beginning to full completion of training.

After the Oracle is trained and ready. Then the oracle is officially recognized by the Monastic officials.



Approximate Trance procedure:


1. Oracle will be requested to take trance officially. Can be from lay officials, High lamas, Monastic officials, Sangha, lay persons, etc.
2. The throne area is set up with the oracle clothes. The area purified with Sang Kampa/juniper powder incense.
3. Long horns blown to announce the arrival of the Great King Dorje Shugen who will enter the oracle that particular day.
4. Oracle arrives. Dresses. Makes Serkym offerings of golden drink. Takes his place on the throne among the assembly.
5. Monks, invocation master and ritual assistants will recite:
  A. Gaden Hlagyema
  B. Self Generation of Yamantaka
  C. Purification of environment (from Shugden Kangsol)
  D. Generation of Shugden, Palace and environment (kangsol)
  E. Actual invocation of King Dorje Shugden, at which time the oracle will have clear visualization of himself as Yamantaka within the divine palace in order to 'protect' his meridians and enhance the entry of King of Dorje Shugden into his awaiting oracular vessel.(kangsol)
  F. Shugden Enters
  G. The sponsors, officials, guests will offer tea to Shugden, then if available offer tsok directly to Shugden.
  H.  Khatas, offerings, questions are offered up to Shugden which will be answered one by one.
Answers recorded by a trained scribe. Later answers will be checked and sealed by the office of the oracle and given.
  I.  Prophecies, answers, advice that are general will be read out to the sangha.
  J. Final offering of tea, and Shugden will take leave of his oracle.


The above is an approximation of the procedures, sometimes there are variations depending on the situation, crowd, oracle and lama.

TK


DSFriend

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Re: What is the process of taking trance of DS?
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2011, 08:56:34 AM »
Thank you TK for the detailed information!

It takes much dedication and years to prepare a person, suitable to be an oracle. It is well known that the Dorje Shugden Oracles are extremely accurate in giving answers. How fortunate we are to have such divine guidance.

Here's an excerpt taken from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors (Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang), how Dorje Shugden's advice was so precise that he delighted the Chinese Emperor Dhakong and Dalai Lama, and they enthroned Dorje Shugden as the principal protector of the Yellow Hat teachings.


As for this, during the first period of the time of the eleventh Dalai Lama Kädrup Gyatso and the regent Ratreng Hotogtu Ngawang Yeshe Tsultrim Gyältsän, the Great Dharma King Nechung and the Lhasa Trokang Gyälchen Shugden were both swift to perform activities and both were very renowned to give accurate prophesies.  Resident in Tibet was a high Chinese minister who was powerful and oppressive named Ambän Che Trungtang.  He had some very important questions to ask for prophecy that he had written in Chinese.  He came to the Lhasa Trode Kangsar Protector Palace and, in front of the image of the Dharmapala, burned the questions he had written in Chinese, and demanded that the Dharmapala give clear prophesies in answer to his questions during an invocation the following day.  When Dharmapala was invoked the next day, he gave explicit powerful answers to the questions in the correct order.  Trungtang, with delighted conviction, informed the emperor Dhakong (1782 – 1850) who awarded a proclamation of praise to Gyälchen of the Trokang Temple with a pandit's hat, and also gave a pandit's hat to Nechung at the same time.  The regent Ratreng, the Kashag, the Shabpä, the head secretary and so forth, ordained and lay officials from the high to low, and the Chinese Amban and his entourage went to Nechung in the morning and after a ceremonial offering of the new pandit's hat, then went to Lhasa Trode Kangsar.  There, in the center of a large stone courtyard, inside a pitched tent, in an elaborate auspicious ceremony, over the door of the protector palace was offered the pandit's award.  The Trokang oracle, the temple monks, and general chief monks, with the regent Ratreng Rinpoche, the Chinese Amban, the Kashag, and Shabpä as chief attendees, Tibetan and Chinese people of all ranks were offered a feast and had a huge festival.  With the Chinese emperor Dhakong and the Lord of Buddhas, the Dalai Lama, patron and lama together, they all praised and enthroned Gyälchen Dorje Shugden as principal protector of the Yellow Hat Teachings as praised in this part of the verse.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 08:58:15 AM by DSFriend »

jessicajameson

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Re: What is the process of taking trance of DS?
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2011, 11:32:01 PM »
That's is not an easy training course...thank you tk for explaining it so clearly.

Can anyone be an oracle? Can existing oracles reincarnate again as a human to then serve to be an oracle lifetime after lifetime? Are different people suited to be oracles specific for different Buddhas? Like for DS, who is suited to have the Great King enter them! A layman, high lama, geshe? I can't imagine a plain Jane like me being suitable.

Is it "better" to be an oracle, if given the chance? Does it improve your spiritual practice? I mean, using your body as a vehicle to host a Buddha must have immense blessings and benefits.

Oh no, these are a lot of questions - if it has been answered in a different topic already, sorry, you could just kindly point me to it and I'll read :)

Oracles are fascinating.

p/s I saw in some other threads that there are non-believers in oracles, please don't attack this thread - I'm actually genuinely interested. Thanks

iloveds

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Re: What is the process of taking trance of DS?
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2011, 02:41:53 AM »
Thank you TK for sharing such detailed first hand information, you are our knowledgeable one on this forum.

@jessicajameson not an easy training up schedule indeed. I believe that an oracle can be made, if a Lama can control the oracle or tell the dharma protectors what to do, to make an oracle should be very easy for them .

Most definitely there will be blessings from using your  body  as a vehicle no doubt results similar to the cause no?!?

TKs explanation only left me with 2 more questions:


1 If being an oracle is safe and dorjeshugden is a buddha then, why the need to protect meridians of the oracle? What happens to the meridians during trance what is the dangers to the oracle? For a lay oracle I am assuming the dangers to be even more.

Quote
  E. Actual invocation of King Dorje Shugden, at which time the oracle will have clear visualization of himself as Yamantaka within the divine palace in order to 'protect' his meridians and enhance the entry of King of Dorje Shugden into his awaiting oracular vessel.(kangsol)

2 Are there any lay oracles in the world today that take trance of DS?
Such a person would be a rarity and also a threat  to our lovely friends in the TGIE. Both lay and ordained DS oracles take trance of the same protector, same test can be checked in the monastery to show authenticity of the being taking control of the oracle. Information from previous trance sessions can be verified.. Lay or not it is still safe and able to be checked.

One more observation, being the oracle is a choice for life, i thank them for their selfless actions. Must have come from past life prayers or why else would it be a natural direction for them to progress. I think it  would have to been like that in previous lives (@jessicajameson does that sound logical or not)

LosangKhyentse

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Re: What is the process of taking trance of DS?
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2011, 04:02:13 AM »


Yes, there is a lay oracle in North India who can take trance of Dorje Shugden and Kache Marpo trained up by the late great Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche.


WisdomBeing

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Re: What is the process of taking trance of DS?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2011, 05:30:56 AM »

Here's an excerpt taken from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors (Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang), how Dorje Shugden's advice was so precise that he delighted the Chinese Emperor Dhakong and Dalai Lama, and they enthroned Dorje Shugden as the principal protector of the Yellow Hat teachings.


As for this, during the first period of the time of the eleventh Dalai Lama Kädrup Gyatso and the regent Ratreng Hotogtu Ngawang Yeshe Tsultrim Gyältsän, the Great Dharma King Nechung and the Lhasa Trokang Gyälchen Shugden were both swift to perform activities and both were very renowned to give accurate prophesies.  Resident in Tibet was a high Chinese minister who was powerful and oppressive named Ambän Che Trungtang.  He had some very important questions to ask for prophecy that he had written in Chinese.  He came to the Lhasa Trode Kangsar Protector Palace and, in front of the image of the Dharmapala, burned the questions he had written in Chinese, and demanded that the Dharmapala give clear prophesies in answer to his questions during an invocation the following day.  When Dharmapala was invoked the next day, he gave explicit powerful answers to the questions in the correct order.  Trungtang, with delighted conviction, informed the emperor Dhakong (1782 – 1850) who awarded a proclamation of praise to Gyälchen of the Trokang Temple with a pandit's hat, and also gave a pandit's hat to Nechung at the same time.  The regent Ratreng, the Kashag, the Shabpä, the head secretary and so forth, ordained and lay officials from the high to low, and the Chinese Amban and his entourage went to Nechung in the morning and after a ceremonial offering of the new pandit's hat, then went to Lhasa Trode Kangsar.  There, in the center of a large stone courtyard, inside a pitched tent, in an elaborate auspicious ceremony, over the door of the protector palace was offered the pandit's award.  The Trokang oracle, the temple monks, and general chief monks, with the regent Ratreng Rinpoche, the Chinese Amban, the Kashag, and Shabpä as chief attendees, Tibetan and Chinese people of all ranks were offered a feast and had a huge festival.  With the Chinese emperor Dhakong and the Lord of Buddhas, the Dalai Lama, patron and lama together, they all praised and enthroned Gyälchen Dorje Shugden as principal protector of the Yellow Hat Teachings as praised in this part of the verse.


Thank you for sharing this story from Music Delighting... in those days, were Shugden and Nechung viewed as the same ranking or level? Or was one considered superior to the other? Since both received the pandit's hat....

just curious...
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

WoselTenzin

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Re: What is the process of taking trance of DS?
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2011, 08:50:30 AM »
Thank you TK for giving a clear and concise explanation of the procedure of training of an oracle and taking of trance.  It definitely gives me a better understanding of the process and make me appreciate the time spent and effort put it by an oracle in training to become qualified to take trance so that the message from the King Dorje Shugden can be relayed to us. Understanding this makes me feel that an oracle is extremely kind and compassionate.   

Big Uncle

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Re: What is the process of taking trance of DS?
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2011, 08:13:22 PM »
1 If being an oracle is safe and dorjeshugden is a buddha then, why the need to protect meridians of the oracle? What happens to the meridians during trance what is the dangers to the oracle? For a lay oracle I am assuming the dangers to be even more.

I don't know much of oracles and the trance sessions that take place but I do know that Dorje Shugden is enlightened (and is wrathful energy) and we are not. Hence, for him to go into us would be likened to forcing himself down a toilet bowl. That process could be too much for the body of the oracle to take. This has got nothing to do to do with the state of mind of Dorje Shugden. It is to do with the limitations of our body to accommodate such a powerful force. That is why Yamantaka meditations come to help assist this... Like I say, I am no expert but that is how I see it...

Roberto

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Re: What is the process of taking trance of DS?
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2011, 02:49:36 AM »
Toilet bowl, hahahaha, good one.

I thought you were going to say,

likened to
....keeping a lightening bolt in a paper bag.

hope you didn't mean the oracles are toilets?

beggar

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Re: What is the process of taking trance of DS?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2011, 04:44:25 AM »
Thank you for all the information shared on this thread. Very beneficial and worth sharing with many!

The points TK mentioned are very important for us to consider. To see the very stringent procedures that an oracle has to go through, and very "strict" training ensures the credibility of oracles. This is important in protecting both the oracle and people who consult him - there are innumerable cases of so-called oracles taking trance of much lesser beings now which can be very harmful to the person taking trance as well as to the people conversing and receiving "advice" from these beings.

Buddhism advises that we should not really consult these kinds of spirit mediums or lesser beings - it opens the portal for many other malevolent spirits to enter; also as these beings are not enlightened and still within samsara, the advice they can give us (even with a good intention) is limited or could be tainted by their own personal agendas. There have been many instances where people are in turn hurt by these beings when they do not keep "their part of the deal" or given wrong advice which leads to long-term disastrous results.

This is a bit off topic, but I think it is important to realise the big difference between qualified oracles of enlightened beings such as protectors and "ordinary" oracles.

WisdomBeing

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Re: What is the process of taking trance of DS?
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2011, 07:27:03 AM »
Roberto,

This was a sharing from a facebook friend of mine who has personally seen the DS oracle in trance:

"One day, the oracle of DS was "performing". He walked aggressively in my direction (with his sword). I first was afraid... And the next moment, when I thought " why being afraid, he is my protector" he just changed his direction... Wow! ;-)"

Cool, huh!
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Big Uncle

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Re: What is the process of taking trance of DS?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2011, 11:09:30 AM »
Toilet bowl, hahahaha, good one.

I thought you were going to say,

likened to
....keeping a lightening bolt in a paper bag.

hope you didn't mean the oracles are toilets?

I do mean the oracles and being an oracle does not necessarily mean he/she is attained. Hence, they would have to go through extensive retreats to purify and open our psychic channels. The psychic channels are blocked or contaminated by our various delusions - anger, hatred and desire that we experience on a daily basis. Hence, to Dorje Shugden, entering us would be like entering a toilet bowl! So the retreats which is meant to bring us to enlightenment automatically cleans our psychic channel as they are merged with the deity's mind. So a clarity of the channel allows Dorje Shugden or his minister to function fully.
 

DSFriend

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Re: What is the process of taking trance of DS?
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2011, 02:57:20 PM »

Here's an excerpt taken from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors (Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang), how Dorje Shugden's advice was so precise that he delighted the Chinese Emperor Dhakong and Dalai Lama, and they enthroned Dorje Shugden as the principal protector of the Yellow Hat teachings.


As for this, during the first period of the time of the eleventh Dalai Lama Kädrup Gyatso and the regent Ratreng Hotogtu Ngawang Yeshe Tsultrim Gyältsän, the Great Dharma King Nechung and the Lhasa Trokang Gyälchen Shugden were both swift to perform activities and both were very renowned to give accurate prophesies.  Resident in Tibet was a high Chinese minister who was powerful and oppressive named Ambän Che Trungtang.  He had some very important questions to ask for prophecy that he had written in Chinese.  He came to the Lhasa Trode Kangsar Protector Palace and, in front of the image of the Dharmapala, burned the questions he had written in Chinese, and demanded that the Dharmapala give clear prophesies in answer to his questions during an invocation the following day.  When Dharmapala was invoked the next day, he gave explicit powerful answers to the questions in the correct order.  Trungtang, with delighted conviction, informed the emperor Dhakong (1782 – 1850) who awarded a proclamation of praise to Gyälchen of the Trokang Temple with a pandit's hat, and also gave a pandit's hat to Nechung at the same time.  The regent Ratreng, the Kashag, the Shabpä, the head secretary and so forth, ordained and lay officials from the high to low, and the Chinese Amban and his entourage went to Nechung in the morning and after a ceremonial offering of the new pandit's hat, then went to Lhasa Trode Kangsar.  There, in the center of a large stone courtyard, inside a pitched tent, in an elaborate auspicious ceremony, over the door of the protector palace was offered the pandit's award.  The Trokang oracle, the temple monks, and general chief monks, with the regent Ratreng Rinpoche, the Chinese Amban, the Kashag, and Shabpä as chief attendees, Tibetan and Chinese people of all ranks were offered a feast and had a huge festival.  With the Chinese emperor Dhakong and the Lord of Buddhas, the Dalai Lama, patron and lama together, they all praised and enthroned Gyälchen Dorje Shugden as principal protector of the Yellow Hat Teachings as praised in this part of the verse.


Thank you for sharing this story from Music Delighting... in those days, were Shugden and Nechung viewed as the same ranking or level? Or was one considered superior to the other? Since both received the pandit's hat....

just curious...

Interesting question. I don't know for sure but, Dorje Shugden was enthroned as principal protector of the yellow hat. Also, during the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, Dorje Shugden was already praised and recognised as an enlightened being. This is the praise written by the 5th Dalai Lama.

HUM
Though unmoving from the sphere of primordial spontaneity,
With wrathful turbulent power, swifter than lightning,
Endowed with heroic courage to judge good and bad,
I invite you with faith, please come to this place! 

Robes of a monk, crown adorned with rhinocerous leather hat,
Right hand holds ornate club, left holds a human heart,
Riding various mounts such as nagas and garudas,
Who subdues the mamo’s of the charnal grounds, praise to you! 

Samaya substances, offerings and torma, outer, inner and secret,
Favorite visual offerings and various objects are arranged.
Although, previously, my wishes were a bit dense,
Do not stop your powerful apparitions, I reveal and confess!

Now respectfully praising with body, speech, and mind,
For us, the masters, disciples, benefactors and entourages,
Provide the good and avert the bad!
Bring increase like the waxing moon in spiritual and temporal realms!

Moreover, swiftly accomplishing all wishes,
According to our prayers, bestow the supreme effortlessly!
And like the jewel that bestows all wishes,
Always protect us with the Three Jewels!


Sorry, this is abit off the topic on the process of taking trance, but knowing the qualities and nature of Dorje Shugden is vital. Dorje Shugden oracle take trance of a Buddha!

Big Uncle

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Re: What is the process of taking trance of DS?
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2011, 05:35:11 PM »

Here's an excerpt taken from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors (Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang), how Dorje Shugden's advice was so precise that he delighted the Chinese Emperor Dhakong and Dalai Lama, and they enthroned Dorje Shugden as the principal protector of the Yellow Hat teachings.


As for this, during the first period of the time of the eleventh Dalai Lama Kädrup Gyatso and the regent Ratreng Hotogtu Ngawang Yeshe Tsultrim Gyältsän, the Great Dharma King Nechung and the Lhasa Trokang Gyälchen Shugden were both swift to perform activities and both were very renowned to give accurate prophesies.  Resident in Tibet was a high Chinese minister who was powerful and oppressive named Ambän Che Trungtang.  He had some very important questions to ask for prophecy that he had written in Chinese.  He came to the Lhasa Trode Kangsar Protector Palace and, in front of the image of the Dharmapala, burned the questions he had written in Chinese, and demanded that the Dharmapala give clear prophesies in answer to his questions during an invocation the following day.  When Dharmapala was invoked the next day, he gave explicit powerful answers to the questions in the correct order.  Trungtang, with delighted conviction, informed the emperor Dhakong (1782 – 1850) who awarded a proclamation of praise to Gyälchen of the Trokang Temple with a pandit's hat, and also gave a pandit's hat to Nechung at the same time.  The regent Ratreng, the Kashag, the Shabpä, the head secretary and so forth, ordained and lay officials from the high to low, and the Chinese Amban and his entourage went to Nechung in the morning and after a ceremonial offering of the new pandit's hat, then went to Lhasa Trode Kangsar.  There, in the center of a large stone courtyard, inside a pitched tent, in an elaborate auspicious ceremony, over the door of the protector palace was offered the pandit's award.  The Trokang oracle, the temple monks, and general chief monks, with the regent Ratreng Rinpoche, the Chinese Amban, the Kashag, and Shabpä as chief attendees, Tibetan and Chinese people of all ranks were offered a feast and had a huge festival.  With the Chinese emperor Dhakong and the Lord of Buddhas, the Dalai Lama, patron and lama together, they all praised and enthroned Gyälchen Dorje Shugden as principal protector of the Yellow Hat Teachings as praised in this part of the verse.


Thank you for sharing this story from Music Delighting... in those days, were Shugden and Nechung viewed as the same ranking or level? Or was one considered superior to the other? Since both received the pandit's hat....

just curious...

Interesting question. I don't know for sure but, Dorje Shugden was enthroned as principal protector of the yellow hat. Also, during the time of the 5th Dalai Lama, Dorje Shugden was already praised and recognised as an enlightened being. This is the praise written by the 5th Dalai Lama.

HUM
Though unmoving from the sphere of primordial spontaneity,
With wrathful turbulent power, swifter than lightning,
Endowed with heroic courage to judge good and bad,
I invite you with faith, please come to this place! 

Robes of a monk, crown adorned with rhinocerous leather hat,
Right hand holds ornate club, left holds a human heart,
Riding various mounts such as nagas and garudas,
Who subdues the mamo’s of the charnal grounds, praise to you! 

Samaya substances, offerings and torma, outer, inner and secret,
Favorite visual offerings and various objects are arranged.
Although, previously, my wishes were a bit dense,
Do not stop your powerful apparitions, I reveal and confess!

Now respectfully praising with body, speech, and mind,
For us, the masters, disciples, benefactors and entourages,
Provide the good and avert the bad!
Bring increase like the waxing moon in spiritual and temporal realms!

Moreover, swiftly accomplishing all wishes,
According to our prayers, bestow the supreme effortlessly!
And like the jewel that bestows all wishes,
Always protect us with the Three Jewels!


Sorry, this is abit off the topic on the process of taking trance, but knowing the qualities and nature of Dorje Shugden is vital. Dorje Shugden oracle take trance of a Buddha!

Well, I think that the Pandit's hat was awarded by the Chinese without putting much thought to rank and hierarchy of the deities. To the Chinese, a deity is just a deity and they awarded the Pandit's hat to Nechung and Dorje Shugden oracles mainly because they were very accurate and powerful with their prophesies. The Tibetans would never award a Pandit's hat to Dharma Protectors, enlightened or otherwise because it is a symbol of a attained Lama. A Lama is always higher than the Yidam and Dharma Protector within the context of spiritual practice.