dorjeshugden.com
About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mana on May 05, 2011, 01:44:53 PM
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Those who denegrade great Gelug Tulkus/Lamas/Geshes accusing them of Shugden practice are actually trying to suppress the Gelug Lineage.
Just becasue they may or may not practice Shugden does not take away from their learning, hardwork, studies, meditations, practices and in some cases attainments. Those who are jealous or against Gelug School specifically target Gelug teachers to bring them down by saying they engage in Shugden. This is the short term trend at this time.
We have to beware, accusing Gelug Teachers has become something political to suppress them due to various reasons that are not arising from good motivation. We must stop this trend of sectarianism against the Gelug School of Buddhism by not participating in it and not degrading teachers of the Gelug School nor any School. Why hurt your own family? Those within Gelug should stop accusing eachother of Shugden. It does not fulfill our long term goals as intended by Father Tsongkapa.
Mana
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There are some within Gelugs who are perhaps jealous of other Gelug teachers and they accuse eachother of either practicing Shugden or not. Whether you practice Shugden or not, either way is bad depending from what group you are from.
Your agenda may not be exposing whether they practice or not, or they are not 'honest' because they do not openly practice, but your purpose is to damage them for whatever motives you are harbouring. Otherwise, who does it actually make a difference to whether this lama practices Shugden or not. It is not our right to check, accuse or so called expose. Everyone has the freedom to practice, not practice, secretly practice as and when they like. I agree with Mana. This trend of policing lamas from all sides should cease. Otherwise we just damage the sacred Gelug lineage on our own by our own speech.
TK
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Those who denegrade great Gelug Tulkus/Lamas/Geshes accusing them of Shugden practice are actually trying to suppress the Gelug Lineage.
Just becasue they may or may not practice Shugden does not take away from their learning, hardwork, studies, meditations, practices and in some cases attainments. Those who are jealous or against Gelug School specifically target Gelug teachers to bring them down by saying they engage in Shugden. This is the short term trend at this time.
We have to beware, accusing Gelug Teachers has become something political to suppress them due to various reasons that are not arising from good motivation. We must stop this trend of sectarianism against the Gelug School of Buddhism by not participating in it and not degrading teachers of the Gelug School nor any School. Why hurt your own family? Those within Gelug should stop accusing eachother of Shugden. It does not fulfill our long term goals as intended by Father Tsongkapa.
Mana
This makes some sense in many cases. Not all, but many. Thanks.
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This entire Shugden affair has created so much division within the Gelugpa and without. There are hardly any Gelugpa lamas now who are internationally respected - of course the Dalai Lama is still up there, but HH Trijang Rinpoche, HH Pabongkha Rinpoche, HE Gangchen Rinpoche, HH Gaden Trisur are all low profile or outcast because of their practice. HH Trijang Choktrul has even preferred to become a lay Lama rather than get involved in the politics.
It's true what Mana says - there is already so much mudslinging at Gelugpas, why should Gelugpas pit Gelugpas against each other when we should be together in solidarity and harmony. When we criticise Lamas - with or without cause - what are we hoping to achieve? We just look petty. Are we trying to prove how clever we are? Is our ego bigger than the tradition we are following? I remember reading somewhere that Buddhism will be eventually be destroyed by Buddhists rather than outsiders and in this case, our Gelugpa tradition can grow or be destroyed by ourselves. It all depends on what causes we create, doesn't it? Family squabbles always destroy the family - is that what we want? What is our true motivation? i think that this is something everyone who wishes to point fingers should contemplate deeply.
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Actually Mana... any good moral, ethical, kind people... need not be gelugs/buddhist would probably just practice being nice/kind..
If you have nothing nice to say about someone or something, better not say it at all cos at the end of the day, what is your point? Your reason for saying? Are we better then the other that we can criticise someone for being different. Who really are we to judge? People often forget to be nice or kind which the basis of normal ethical human conduct, no need to even talk about Buddha, Gelugs or Buddhism.
So to all those who like to complain, criticise and cause disharmony, it is a clear indication you are very insecure with who you are and probably need reaffirmation to make your self feel better or ok. Funny how the tricky human jealous mind can be. It truly robes people out of true happiness and focus.... OR they really are TOO TOO FREE! Don't know what else to do but criticise others. So much time wasted on meaningless affairs.
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This is really the sign of degenerate times that the Lord Buddha Shakyamuni talked about. Buddhism will eventually end this way. It would not be from without.... it would be from within. Hence, instead of bickering about who has the right lineage and so forth, we shouldn't indulge too much and instead, we should make our lineage strong, make Dorje Shugden grow bigger and faster. The bigger it grows, the more people will be benefitted and more people will enter the Dharma in this way. It is really a pity that so many people don't have the merit to see the qualities of these great masters anymore. Hence, we should highlight the great contributions of these great masters. The ban on Dorje Shugden is impermanent and will eventually come to an end and things would turn around and many of these Lamas would have positioned themselves to spread the Dharma even farther and wider then.
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Jealousy breeds corruption.
By corrupt, I mean, your moral or ethical values become corrupted. So, we need not even speak of any spiritual practice here. For there is nothing spiritual when our thoughts, feelings and deeds are tainted with corruption.
Jealousy is real. I am sure we have all witnessed our fair share of it.
There are people who would use Lamas to further their own centers and organizations when the time was ripe to do so. They become all friendly with the Lamas and would spend most of their time with these Lamas. Showing their respects, thanking the Lamas for helping to set up their centers and etc.
Then, when the news of the ban began to take effect, they dropped these Lamas like yesterdays's garbage bags. They actually saw their perfect opportunity arise. And you'd never guess! They see that this is the perfect time to 'squash' these Lamas and start promoting their own. All because they want to be more popular, more famous, more powerful...there are always justifiable reasons, aren't they?
Simply put - there are people who saw opportunities to reap somethings for their own benefits. There are people who really do not care about real spiritual practice or Dharma, but more interested in growing their center or organization into a powerful entity.
Yes, it is all about politics and power.
If these two are given such importance over everything else, and people can be persuaded to fight with 'their own families', then yes, we will destroy the Dharma and Gelugpa all on our own.
We can't rejoice for the success of others. We seem so fearful and insecure when others win or have more.
It is no longer about spiritual practice or Dharma, it is about power struggle and wanting more of it.
And those who participate in these kinds of activities will be the ones promoting more of it. It is not limited to just Gelugs.
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When Pabongka Rinpoche was really famous in Tibet, people accused Pabongka Rinpoche of destroying statues of other lineages and being sectarian. Is one sectarian for being faithful to one's lineage?
I mean would you believe the person who gave us the Lam Rim, which is stil being used in modern times can be sectarian?
If anyone subscribes to sectarianism they are definitely not practicing the dharma. I cannot believe the guru of Trijang Rinpoche can be sectarian period. Especially after I have read the namtar of Trijang Rinpoche!
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When Pabongka Rinpoche was really famous in Tibet, people accused Pabongka Rinpoche of destroying statues of other lineages and being sectarian. Is one sectarian for being faithful to one's lineage?
I mean would you believe the person who gave us the Lam Rim, which is stil being used in modern times can be sectarian?
If anyone subscribes to sectarianism they are definitely not practicing the dharma. I cannot believe the guru of Trijang Rinpoche can be sectarian period. Especially after I have read the namtar of Trijang Rinpoche!
All teachers who have great impact and benefit on others have to put up with jealousy, intrigue,disloyalty, rumours, gossips,and all that comes with fame. The incredible thing is they tolerate it knowingly, with great compassion and patience in order to continue to benefit.
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When Pabongka Rinpoche was really famous in Tibet, people accused Pabongka Rinpoche of destroying statues of other lineages and being sectarian. Is one sectarian for being faithful to one's lineage?
I mean would you believe the person who gave us the Lam Rim, which is stil being used in modern times can be sectarian?
If anyone subscribes to sectarianism they are definitely not practicing the dharma. I cannot believe the guru of Trijang Rinpoche can be sectarian period. Especially after I have read the namtar of Trijang Rinpoche!
Attained teachers have no need to be sectarian because they would know that all schools of Buddhism are equally good as they bring their practitioners to the ultimate goals of liberation.
This would probably explain why, as Thaimonk says, that good teachers knowingly tolerate jealousy and false gossip in order to benefit others. i believe that while those who are not yet advanced in their spiritual progress would complain, compare and say negative things about teachers, those who are advanced would not. This would be a good gauge of anyone's spiritual attainments or lack of it.
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It’s most ridiculous that, out of jealousy, there are those who would denigrate and put down Gelug Lamas, including the highly attained Holy Beings. It’s not about the purity of Dharma practice when they criticize those who practice Dorje Shugden. These criticisms and attacks are mostly political in nature and motivation. There is no higher purpose of benefitting others or growing the Dharma through these criticisms.
Highly attained Lamas, regardless of their Lineages, are above sectarianism and all this pettiness and narrow-mindedness. I still see very clearly, in my mind’s eye, the heartwarming scene of Dilgo Kyentze Rinpoche receiving, from Panchen Rinpoche, a picture of the latter that he had requested for. Both these great masters of different Lineages exuded only love and compassion. Strife and petty jealousy
Harmony will promote the growth and spread of Dharma and the great Gelug Lineage. Petty jealousy and strife will threaten this illustrious Lineage of Je Tsongkapa and cause Dharma to degenerate.
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I stand strong by my principle to take the lamas as our greatest example and inspiration. It is amazing that all the lamas that are being suppressed, ridiculed, mocked, accused, slandered do not utter a single word back against anyone. This is a true practitioner.
I think what is worrying is that by human nature, more people are likely to listen to and react to negative whisperings, bad talk, gossip and rumous. A lama could do 10 good things, but as long as there is even one false rumour, people are more likely to be swayed by that.
So - do we fight fire with fire? Or find other ways? As Big Uncle has said, Buddha predicted that Buddhism will be destroyed from within and i refuse to be a part of that. I think any true Buddhist should try at all odds to avoid being part of this. I think one of the best ways to combat this jealousy is to speak up for the positive sides and show people the other side of what they are believing - in other words, show them through logic and skill what the truth is.
You don't get pulled into the politics that way, and at the same time, you provide good, solid information and education that will help future generations of practitioners make informed choices about the lamas, lineages and teachings they follow. I think the lamas prove this by their own example - the lamas never fight back, the just reveal the truth of their teachings by their action and their continued teaching of the lamrim. Like they said, good always wins over evil!
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What would be the future of someone who having met the dharma, choose to disparage the lamas and destroy a holy lineage?
What would the possibilities be for this person to meet the dharma and a perfect guru again?
Would contemplating on the effects help curb sectarianism, lama bashing, and thus NOT cutting our own opportunities to be happier people?
I sincerely hope that thinking about the repercussions will make us stop negative speech and actions
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I think what is worrying is that by human nature, more people are likely to listen to and react to negative whisperings, bad talk, gossip and rumous. A lama could do 10 good things, but as long as there is even one false rumour, people are more likely to be swayed by that.
So - do we fight fire with fire? Or find other ways? As Big Uncle has said, Buddha predicted that Buddhism will be destroyed from within and i refuse to be a part of that. I think any true Buddhist should try at all odds to avoid being part of this. I think one of the best ways to combat this jealousy is to speak up for the positive sides and show people the other side of what they are believing - in other words, show them through logic and skill what the truth is.
Of course, because people are always looking for an escape clause. But they forget that in doing so, they already their refuge vows, about divisive speech and idle chatter, never mind guru devotion which is a concept far too deep for most of us to grasp.
Anyway, you can't fight fire with fire, because you'll get burned (ohhh hohoho). I think the other best way to combat jealousy is to force yourself to praise the people you dislike for their successes, or at least stop criticising them for their successes.
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Jealousy of Gelugs is definitely there. The Tibetan Govt from the time of the Great 5th Dalai Lama has been called 'GADEN PODRANG' or palace of Gaden. Now the Tibetan govt in exile wishes to change this name. They source 5th Dalai Lama as part of the reason to ban Dorje Shugden. But it is also the 5th Dalai Lama who named the Tibetan Govt Gaden Podrang, so they should just keep the name. why is 5th Dalai Lama right on some things and wrong on another? Isn't he the Great 5th and omniscient?
Now the Tibetan Govt in exile are discussing to change the name and to what. No conclusions yet. Are we seeing the slow formation of a non-existent Nation state or they have nothing else of importance better to do? What do you think? I think it's nothing else better to do.
5th Dalai Lama is quoted for their own conveniences. Any lama is quoted for their conveniences. Easy to see this. Another reason we can clearly see the ban is politics pure and simple but should lead to something much bigger whatever the case.
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Jealousy of Gelugs is definitely there. The Tibetan Govt from the time of the Great 5th Dalai Lama has been called 'GADEN PODRANG' or palace of Gaden. Now the Tibetan govt in exile wishes to change this name. They source 5th Dalai Lama as part of the reason to ban Dorje Shugden. But it is also the 5th Dalai Lama who named the Tibetan Govt Gaden Podrang, so they should just keep the name. why is 5th Dalai Lama right on some things and wrong on another? Isn't he the Great 5th and omniscient?
Now the Tibetan Govt in exile are discussing to change the name and to what. No conclusions yet. Are we seeing the slow formation of a non-existent Nation state or they have nothing else of importance better to do? What do you think? I think it's nothing else better to do.
I think the Tibetan government has nothing much better to do like what Thaimonk has said, so to show that they are doing something, why not think of a change of name.....In any case, what is there to do when you don't even have a country or a state to run, I hope they can think of many names and take them months or years to decide which name is appropriate. At least that would occupy them and stop them from finding ways to abuse the Shugden practitioners.
The Dalai Lama has once said," If you cannot help, at least do not harm". So in the case of the Gelugs or DS practitioners, we should not harm them with any form of divisive speech.
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I think even way before the controversy, jealousy has always been around. Take a look at Dorje Shugden story, how that happened also due to jealousy. I think It is just a chance for many to let it out now during this controversial time... But it is definitely not what dharma is all about and how Lord Tsongkhapa wanted it.
Years later, jealousy happened again... Same thing, different time. Yet again, Dorje Shugden has to "die" again for this time... Indeed, for a bigger picture. When the ban subsides, it will be a good teaching for those who despise their own doctrine and guru.,,
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I agree with you "Who really are we to judge?". Some lay people cant even make the right judgement in picking their spouse let alone their spiritual practice. For those who have been given this practice by their Lama and later chose to abandon it, it is time to look within themself; are they wiser than their Lama?
Actually Mana... any good moral, ethical, kind people... need not be gelugs/buddhist would probably just practice being nice/kind..
If you have nothing nice to say about someone or something, better not say it at all cos at the end of the day, what is your point? Your reason for saying? Are we better then the other that we can criticise someone for being different. Who really are we to judge? People often forget to be nice or kind which the basis of normal ethical human conduct, no need to even talk about Buddha, Gelugs or Buddhism.
So to all those who like to complain, criticise and cause disharmony, it is a clear indication you are very insecure with who you are and probably need reaffirmation to make your self feel better or ok. Funny how the tricky human jealous mind can be. It truly robes people out of true happiness and focus.... OR they really are TOO TOO FREE! Don't know what else to do but criticise others. So much time wasted on meaningless affairs.
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May be I am alone in this view, but I cannot help but see how it does seem jealousy is a most common trait throughout the history of Tibetan Buddhism.
After all, prior to the existence of Gelug, the Sakyas and Nyingmas have enjoyed much prominence or can I even use the word - "monopoly" over Tibet. But ever since Gelugpa School of Buddhism was established, Gelug seem to have over-shadowed all other schools by becoming the fastest growing, widely accepted and in gaining more 'market share' in the world of Tibetan Buddhism. Hence, there is definitely jealousy in the Gelug's success of becoming popular and having well known Lamas.
If other schools of Buddhism can use the issue of DS as a perfect excuse and opportunity to suppress the Gelug's lineage, popularity and "power" - I would not put it pass other Gelugpa organizations using the same DS issue as the perfect reason to snuff out their fellow Gelug competitors within the Tibetan Buddhist community around the world. It would not be that difficult for me to imagine that.
As dirty as politics have always been, everything is used perfectly justifiable reasons to exterminate a threat to their success or power and authority. Spirituality and religion are not spared from dirty politics. And this is not just unique to Tibetan Buddhism. It is the same in other religious organizations.
At the end of the day, it is just a power play, power struggle and a desire to take out the 'competitors' in their same field of expertise. In this case, its Tibetan Buddhism. And they all disguise their self-serving motivations behind HHDL's ban and policies.
Just look at history - how the jealousy of the 5th Dalai Lama's attendants can justify the murder of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. The jealousy of Pabongka Rinpoche's fame can cause others to accuse Rinpoche of being sectarian, etc. And now, those who stand who 'win' or 'gain' are using the issue of DS to suppress Gelug's widespread growth. Well, it does look very much like directed specifically to Gelugpa, doesn't it?
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Jealousy of Gelugs is definitely there. The Tibetan Govt from the time of the Great 5th Dalai Lama has been called 'GADEN PODRANG' or palace of Gaden. Now the Tibetan govt in exile wishes to change this name. They source 5th Dalai Lama as part of the reason to ban Dorje Shugden. But it is also the 5th Dalai Lama who named the Tibetan Govt Gaden Podrang, so that they should just keep the name. why is 5th Dalai Lama right on some things and wrong on another? Isn't he the Great 5th and omniscient?
Now the Tibetan Govt in exile are discussing to change the name and to what. No conclusions yet. Are we seeing the slow formation of a non-existent Nation state or they have nothing else of importance better to do? What do you think? I think it's nothing else better to do.
They must be really bored now that they His Holiness has turned history around. What else can they do now since they are no longer in authority in the eyes of the world. Jealousy is definitely there... politics is after all samsara in nature and without a doubt and this is pure politics. Hopefully now with the new system and newly formed government, perhaps we can see that each sect can grow without power struggle.
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Now the Tibetan Govt in exile are discussing to change the name and to what. No conclusions yet. Are we seeing the slow formation of a non-existent Nation state or they have nothing else of importance better to do? What do you think? I think it's nothing else better to do.
I could be over generalizing, but changing names is often associated to re-inventing a character, or doing a way of an image/persona.
Looks like perhaps there is indeed a need for TGIE especially with the new political leader in position, the need is there to create a new perception in the minds of tibetans...
I do wonder what is it that the TGIE wants to do at the end of the day for tibetans with or without a new name!
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Yes just what exactly does TGIE want to do and now with no country and no real government body what will the goals be.
Tibetans are spread out all over the world now, I think the should start focusing on better education for their people. Preserving their culture and especially their spiritual lineages because that is what they are well-known around the world for. Preserving it by teaching people and making their spiritual practice part and parcel of their beautifully rich culture instead of riots, protest and a new name.
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Those who denegrade great Gelug Tulkus/Lamas/Geshes accusing them of Shugden practice are actually trying to suppress the Gelug Lineage.
Just becasue they may or may not practice Shugden does not take away from their learning, hardwork, studies, meditations, practices and in some cases attainments. Those who are jealous or against Gelug School specifically target Gelug teachers to bring them down by saying they engage in Shugden. This is the short term trend at this time.
In many scenarios, this is very, very clear. A good example is the esangha forums. Whether or not a Lama is a DS practitioner, it is in reality irrelevant at all because DS practitioner or not, the Lama is still qualified and is still spreading and practicing the pure Dharma. So why accuse Dorje Shugden Lamas of being bad or evil and that we should not go for them for teachings? (this is more widespread in FPMT and amongst Nyingma, Kagyu and Sakya.
We have to beware, accusing Gelug Teachers has become something political to suppress them due to various reasons that are not arising from good motivation. We must stop this trend of sectarianism against the Gelug School of Buddhism by not participating in it and not degrading teachers of the Gelug School nor any School. Why hurt your own family? Those within Gelug should stop accusing eachother of Shugden. It does not fulfill our long term goals as intended by Father Tsongkapa.
I do notice this trend and I do find it very sad that Gelugs would actually do such things back to people of their own lineage. For the sake of fame and being on the Dalai Lama's side, they sell out their own tradition and encourage their students to center hop or lama hop just to appear to be nonsectarian and from there, the wrong idea about being nonsectarian begins.
Mana
At this point, I'd like to say that it is pretty sad that people cannot see through such political games and continue and do things of this nature all the time. For me, I know better...but what about people who dont? Who will be responsible if they end up in a Dharma limbo due to wrong information?
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After all, prior to the existence of Gelug, the Sakyas and Nyingmas have enjoyed much prominence or can I even use the word - "monopoly" over Tibet. But ever since Gelugpa School of Buddhism was established, Gelug seem to have over-shadowed all other schools by becoming the fastest growing, widely accepted and in gaining more 'market share' in the world of Tibetan Buddhism. Hence, there is definitely jealousy in the Gelug's success of becoming popular and having well known Lamas.
If other schools of Buddhism can use the issue of DS as a perfect excuse and opportunity to suppress the Gelug's lineage, popularity and "power" - I would not put it pass other Gelugpa organizations using the same DS issue as the perfect reason to snuff out their fellow Gelug competitors within the Tibetan Buddhist community around the world. It would not be that difficult for me to imagine that.
Tibet was very much dominated by Bon prior to the arrival of Padmasambhava.
In the 7th Century the Tibetan King Srontsan Gampo introduced Buddhism into Tibet but was forced to expel all Buddhism Teachers from the land when some calamities occurred and the Bon took it as a sign that Buddhism was bad for Tibet.
In the 8th Century The Indian Master Shantirakshita attempted to revive Buddhism in Tibet but was again met with a lot of objections from Bon leaders who sought every opportunity to call for the expulsion of the Buddhist Master on the excuse that Bon Gods have been angered by their presence in Tibet. Later Shantirakshita was invited to return but he said forces in Tibet was too strong and that only Padmasambhava can help.
Padmasambhava spent 50 years subduing demons all over Tibet and forced them to work for the good of Tibet under a Buddhist framework. Essentially the form of Buddhism that evolved out of that was heavily influenced by tantra and the worshipping Tibetan deities and gods.
In the 11th Century, Atisha came to Tibet to again revive Buddhism based on Buddhist scriptures but also having to strike a balance with the popular practices at that time. Resistance to Atisha's attempts was the reason Tibetan Buddhism broke into different schools - the Kadampa who took Atisha's advice; the Kargyupa and Sakyapa which wanted to retain the traditional practice of worshipping Tibetan gods and deities; the Nyingmapa which totally rejected Atisha's views and continued with heavily tantric influenced practices of Padmasanbhava and Bon.
Then came the great Je Tsongkhapa in the 15th Century, to continue with Atisha's reforms, and established the Gelugpa which emphasized the importance of keeping the Buddha's teachings pure. The Buddha himself predicted that Tsongkhapa would be the one to revitalise Buddhism in Tibet and to restore the teachings after they have been polluted, and to bring about a correct lineage.
With such an illuminous founder validated by the Buddha himself, continuing the work of the great Atisha, and whose lineage has been upheld by so many popular Grand Masters such as the Dalai Lamas, Pabongkha Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche and so on, who were well known to be highly attained teachers, and having founded the most important Buddhist Universities of Ganden, Sera and Drepung, it is only natural that many become jealous of the Gelugpas spiritual ascendancy.
On a secular and perhaps unfortunately the Dalai Lamas whilst not the throne-holders of the Gelugpas, are regarded as the Spiritual Head of all the different sects. Therein lies much of the politics as any head of an institution with many different sects will encounter. The Dalai Lamas have the difficult task of having to unify Tibet by having to cater to each sectarian needs and wishes, while also having to uphold the purity of the Gelugpa's teachings. Politics and spiritual correctness do not always share the same goals.
To my observation, the present Dorje Shugden controversy is not only a problem for Shugden practitioners alone but also for the Gelugpas as a whole. Dorje Shugden's main objective is to protect the purity of the Gelugpa's lineage which in turn was established to turn the Buddha's teachings away from dilution and corruption. To undermine a Gelugpa lama is like undermining the work of Buddha Tsongkhapa himself. Those who do from within the Gelugpas are focussing more on politics and forgetting why the Gelugpas was formed to beging with.
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This entire Shugden affair has created so much division within the Gelugpa and without. There are hardly any Gelugpa lamas now who are internationally respected - of course the Dalai Lama is still up there, but HH Trijang Rinpoche, HH Pabongkha Rinpoche, HE Gangchen Rinpoche, HH Gaden Trisur are all low profile or outcast because of their practice. HH Trijang Choktrul has even preferred to become a lay Lama rather than get involved in the politics.
Dear Wisdom Being,
I totally agree with you. I am someone who travels to India and Nepal very often and the friction and division between the gelugpa are so blatant. It is very sad. Look, they have lost their country, there are already many division in Tibetan Buddhism in GENERAL. Now, with the Gelugpa, more division.
If you look at a outsider prespective, how on earth will they regain their country back. They are not united. Sad. Even their government have been downgraded to just administration office.
And yet, the Tibetans still critise non stop on high lamas such as Trijang & Pabongkha Rinpoche. By right, they are assets to the Tibetans, they should PROMOTE no DEMOTE them. Sad :-\
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I have heard and thought that Buddhism teaches good values and in the past no major conflicts with other religions resulted in wars with big casualties. But with this ongoing ban so many innocent people had been hurt physically, emotionally, psychologically, financially, and some lost their lives.
Will this break up more Buddhists leading to more unrest and casualties? What happened to all the teachings taught by our Great Buddha? What will happen to the Lamrim and to the Gelugpa lineage? What will happen to Buddhism? What will happen to those Buddhist practitioners, sangha and lay people?
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Its is all very strange to have Lamas pitting against each other in the name of Dorje Shugden practice... The Nyingmas have always had a bone to pick with Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche and various stalwart Lamas because they advocated Dorje Shugden and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche in his hey-day was infinitely popular amongst the lay population, which represented an encroached territory of the Nyingmas.
Hence, the Nyingma's popularity dwindled in the past and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche became even more famous than before. I believe the same can be said of the current situation of the ban and eventually the ban would be lifted because we live in a modern pluralistic society.
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Its is all very strange to have Lamas pitting against each other in the name of Dorje Shugden practice... The Nyingmas have always had a bone to pick with Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche and various stalwart Lamas because they advocated Dorje Shugden and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche in his hey-day was infinitely popular amongst the lay population, which represented an encroached territory of the Nyingmas.
I dont find it strange at all. There will always be jealous people around. Not all Nyingmas are against Dorje Shugden, those who are secure with their own Dharma practice overlook Dorje Shugden, and pay no attention to him at all whatsoever. Penor Rinpoche has not spoken anything against Dorje Shugden to my knowledge, and neither has Dzongzar Khyentse Rinpoche, although his previous incarnation is apparently famous for destroying Dorje Shugden shrines with his tantric powers. But not in this life, apparently. So, just because a few Nyingmas who are anti Dorje Shugden does not mean that each and every Nyingma Lama are anti Shugden. They just ignore the whole fiasco.
Hence, the Nyingma's popularity dwindled in the past and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche became even more famous than before. I believe the same can be said of the current situation of the ban and eventually the ban would be lifted because we live in a modern pluralistic society.
Its due to insecurity that they made those accusations against Pabongkha Rinpoche as he has mastery also of the Nyingma termas and teachings (but are not teaching or passing them due to his promise to Dorje Shugden). The real thing that 'weakened' their lineage is the Rime movement, destroying barriers and their identities with it. Gelug did not join the movement and they only grew from strength to strength. Jealousy can be a horrible thing, even amongst Dharma practitioners, it seems.
It should be noted that other than the Nyingmas, the Kagyus were also very threatened by Pabongkha Rinpoche's and Trijang Rinpoche's presence and they also said bad things against them. Its just jealousy, part of human nature and nothing to be shocked about. But we should be aware that their animosity against Dorje Shugden is due to jealousy and we should forgive them.
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In tradition, Buddhism is tolerating and encompassing, meaning it does not force other to convert nor discriminate other religions. Buddhism does not believe in a creator god, but for religions who believe, Buddhism is very tolerating.
However, when it comes to this Dorje Shugden matter, its stand has suddenly changed. I must say that not all of Buddhism, but the people in CTA is pretty much very discriminative.
I would really like to see that Buddhism is tolerating and encompassing, especially towards its own sects.. I sure hope that the motivation to bring down Gelug is not real because the karma will be very heavy...
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In tradition, Buddhism is tolerating and encompassing, meaning it does not force other to convert nor discriminate other religions. Buddhism does not believe in a creator god, but for religions who believe, Buddhism is very tolerating.
However, when it comes to this Dorje Shugden matter, its stand has suddenly changed. I must say that not all of Buddhism, but the people in CTA is pretty much very discriminative.
I would really like to see that Buddhism is tolerating and encompassing, especially towards its own sects.. I sure hope that the motivation to bring down Gelug is not real because the karma will be very heavy...
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In tradition, Buddhism is tolerating and encompassing, meaning it does not force other to convert nor discriminate other religions. Buddhism does not believe in a creator god, but for religions who believe, Buddhism is very tolerating.
However, when it comes to this Dorje Shugden matter, its stand has suddenly changed. I must say that not all of Buddhism, but the people in CTA is pretty much very discriminative.
I would really like to see that Buddhism is tolerating and encompassing, especially towards its own sects.. I sure hope that the motivation to bring down Gelug is not real because the karma will be very heavy...
I like what you said above in a short and sweet... straight to the point and true! In my POV I don't think many people realise what they are doing has consequences and even though they are Buddhist. I guess when you do not apply the teachings it is already considered dead and all is superficial.
Perhaps all the fake Gelugs will dissolve and the one with Dorje Shugden will prevail and bring on a whole new trend of a newer order of Gelugpas... after all Dorje Shugden resides under Lord Tsongkhapa's thrown and he was sworn to protect the pure lineage and teaching of Lama Tsongkhapa :)
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Why would people want to be jealous of the Gelug Tulkus/Lamas/Geshes when they could rejoice in their attainments or accomplishments? Isn’t rejoicing encouraged as a practice to generate merits than jealousy that is detrimental to spiritual practice? To practise sectarianism is no different than to practise schism among the Buddhist communities. Schism is one of the five crimes of immediate retribution which causes one to be reborn immediately in hell upon death.
To add salt to the wound, these people with bad motivation used Dorje Shugden as a means to accomplish their goals of denigration, segregation and hurtful speech against the Gelug Tulkus/Lamas/Geshes who practise Dorje Shugden. This amounts to total disrespect to Buddha Dorje Shugden. Why become Buddhists in the first place when all your actions are negative and detrimental to your spiritual growth? All your actions do not even fulfill the simple requirement of being kind to others! Stop your negative actions now!
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Why would people want to be jealous of the Gelug Tulkus/Lamas/Geshes when they could rejoice in their attainments or accomplishments? Isn’t rejoicing encouraged as a practice to generate merits than jealousy that is detrimental to spiritual practice? To practise sectarianism is no different than to practise schism among the Buddhist communities. Schism is one of the five crimes of immediate retribution which causes one to be reborn immediately in hell upon death.
It's very simple: they cannot stand the success of the Gelugs, and instead of improving themselves, they choose to try and bring down the gelugs and also Dharma centers who are against them, under the guise that they are practicing something dangerous. They either do this consciously or subconsciously, but the end result is that they are not being a good example as Buddhists.
To add salt to the wound, these people with bad motivation used Dorje Shugden as a means to accomplish their goals of denigration, segregation and hurtful speech against the Gelug Tulkus/Lamas/Geshes who practise Dorje Shugden. This amounts to total disrespect to Buddha Dorje Shugden. Why become Buddhists in the first place when all your actions are negative and detrimental to your spiritual growth? All your actions do not even fulfill the simple requirement of being kind to others! Stop your negative actions now!
It also means they do not have respect or believe in other Buddhas or their own lineage. They do not even respect Buddhism and they only see the Buddha's teachings as an exclusive club of sorts. It is very sad to see how things have disintegrated to this, at this point of time. If they were more focused on the Buddha's teachings, they wouldnt have time to criticize another tradition or be obsessed with the right or wrong traditions.
The whole point still goes back to why is there a need to criticize the Gelugs in the first place? If your tradition is better, prove it without the need to criticize :) thats the best way to prove it. Perhaps some people do think that they are doing the world a favor by driving people away from 'something dangerous', but how would they know?
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It's not a lovely sight at all to observe how jealousy is at play within the Gelug school of Buddhism. Jealousy is such a gross delusion and is very shameful that those are are jealous and causing harm is similar to one shouting on roof tops how unspiritual they are and how power crazy they are. If we look at the history since the 5th Dalai Lama's ruling, the conflict has always been centered around fighting for political power, success, popularity. Must a lineage have all these to make the particular lineage flourish? Why can't it be a display of scholastic achievements, attainments, kindness, all the good qualities of what Buddha taught! Let's say it's a must to be rich, politically powerful, popular etc... why can't be without having to destroy each other. It's all so senseless.
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The core values of Buddhism are compassion and wisdom. It is really sad to see if due to jealousy, Buddhists are causing war and harm like in some of the Islamic or Christian countries. All these accusing Gelug Teachers are considered divisive speech and harsh speech that are all part of the ten non-virtuous actions. It is something that we really need to avoid to falls into the lower realms in our next rebirth. From the “Liberation in the palm of your hand”, there are a lot of stories written to show that it is very sinful criticizing, creating schism in the Sangha and bringing Dharma into decline.
Would really hope that all Buddhists are united and able to practice the teachings by their Guru freely.
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It's not a lovely sight at all to observe how jealousy is at play within the Gelug school of Buddhism. Jealousy is such a gross delusion and is very shameful that those are are jealous and causing harm is similar to one shouting on roof tops how unspiritual they are and how power crazy they are. If we look at the history since the 5th Dalai Lama's ruling, the conflict has always been centered around fighting for political power, success, popularity. Must a lineage have all these to make the particular lineage flourish? Why can't it be a display of scholastic achievements, attainments, kindness, all the good qualities of what Buddha taught! Let's say it's a must to be rich, politically powerful, popular etc... why can't be without having to destroy each other. It's all so senseless.
This is not the worst part of the whole jealousy debacle: the worst part of this are people justifying their jealousy and hiding it by saying that the other more successful center is doing a negative practice or a bad practice because HHDL said so. It would have been much better if they said something else rather than saying that it is a bad practice whatsoever because it shows that they dont mind misleading others just to look good. When people are misled, they lose out their chance on spiritual practice just because they are misled and they do not get to follow the teachings that they are most suited to. Their spirituality is destroyed or they give up Buddhism alltogether because they were disillusioned or far too confused already to pursue Buddhism. In the long run, for the sake of some respect and support and for people to reinforce our beliefs, we destroy their spirituality...
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Theres nothing to be jealous about (jealous about Dharma??!!!?) especially between Dharma brothers. If we are going to continue pinpointing one another and making baseless remarks on he/she/him/her practice, many unnecessary obstacles are created for the tibetan buddhist community especially the Gelug. Let the practice be personal, we do not need to comment abt other ppls practicing but to do well our own.
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There is absolutely nothing to be jealous about, even if we are jealous what comes out it. If we see people achieving popularity and success we cannot reduce our 'pain from jealousy' by being even more jealous we should instead channel our energies into doing a better job and doing better.
This was was afflicted Je Pabongka when his popularity was at its peak. It is sad but buddhism will degenerate even faster due to internal problems.
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This issue of sectarianism is an interesting one, especially in the context of this thread.
It seems ironic that other sects are declaring that Gelugpas are sectarian. Mainly through the false accusation that Dorje Shugden's practice is sectarian and forbids people from practicing or taking teachings from other lineages - this of course is absolutely not true and there is much documented evidence of Dorje Shugden lamas and oracles assisting Nyingmas, Sakyas, Kagyus.
The ironic lies in the fact that things are segregated - nay sectarian - within the Gelugpa sect itself. Where else do we see as prominent a divide as between Shugdenpas (Gelug) and non-Shugdenpas (also Gelug).
The jealousy aspect is definitely in the mix - this is clear. A Gelugpa cannot speak badly against any practitioner, edict, practice or teaching within any other sect for this is called sectarianism. But this is where the greatest irony is. In NOT being sectarian, the gelugs have turned inwards and creating the greatest segregation and sectarianism among themselves. this is all thinly disguised of course. They flaunt big phrases, like they are preserving the purity of the lineage, protecting the spiritual welfare of practitioners etc. When in reality, all it is, is a blatant discrimination against one particular practice within the lineage. And come on, if that isn't being "sectarian", I don't know what is.
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This issue of sectarianism is an interesting one, especially in the context of this thread.
It seems ironic that other sects are declaring that Gelugpas are sectarian. Mainly through the false accusation that Dorje Shugden's practice is sectarian and forbids people from practicing or taking teachings from other lineages - this of course is absolutely not true and there is much documented evidence of Dorje Shugden lamas and oracles assisting Nyingmas, Sakyas, Kagyus.
The ironic lies in the fact that things are segregated - nay sectarian - within the Gelugpa sect itself. Where else do we see as prominent a divide as between Shugdenpas (Gelug) and non-Shugdenpas (also Gelug).
The jealousy aspect is definitely in the mix - this is clear. A Gelugpa cannot speak badly against any practitioner, edict, practice or teaching within any other sect for this is called sectarianism. But this is where the greatest irony is. In NOT being sectarian, the gelugs have turned inwards and creating the greatest segregation and sectarianism among themselves. this is all thinly disguised of course. They flaunt big phrases, like they are preserving the purity of the lineage, protecting the spiritual welfare of practitioners etc. When in reality, all it is, is a blatant discrimination against one particular practice within the lineage. And come on, if that isn't being "sectarian", I don't know what is.
In that context, i wouldnt say that the Gelugs are doing it out of good motivation. Gelugs who turn agains their own school and Dharma brothers and sisters just want to look good and not really focused on Dharma practice. They have no reason at all to talk bad against fellow Gelugs who practice Dorje Shugden and whatnot, more less they have any right to criticize any other schools for whatever reasons.
During these dark times, practitioners want to look good more than anything else, and at that cost, are more than willing to damage their own tradition and bite the hand that fed them. It is a very sad state for anyone to see in more ways than one, but such is the nature of people. If the Dalai Lama did not ban Dorje Shugden, we would not be able to unmask such hypocrisy amongst certain Gelugpas which will be very bad for our Dharma practice if we associate with them, so on that note, it is His Holiness saving us from having downfalls.
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There are some within Gelugs who are perhaps jealous of other Gelug teachers and they accuse eachother of either practicing Shugden or not. Whether you practice Shugden or not, either way is bad depending from what group you are from.
Your agenda may not be exposing whether they practice or not, or they are not 'honest' because they do not openly practice, but your purpose is to damage them for whatever motives you are harbouring. Otherwise, who does it actually make a difference to whether this lama practices Shugden or not. It is not our right to check, accuse or so called expose. Everyone has the freedom to practice, not practice, secretly practice as and when they like. I agree with Mana. This trend of policing lamas from all sides should cease. Otherwise we just damage the sacred Gelug lineage on our own by our own speech.
TK
Thank you TK for your thoughts, because it has provoked me to think of something. What I was wondering about is the whole "everyone needs to be out and proud as practitioners" thing which I do not get or understand at all. Is it a must that all Dorje Shugden practitioners be out and proud in their practice? Dharma practices are sacred and personal, and because of that, nobody has the right to expose or criticize another lama who so happens to practice Dorje Shugden, simply because a) they're not his students b) they're not doing the world a favor even though they think they are and c) it's none of their business.