Author Topic: Jealous of Gelugs  (Read 22567 times)

triesa

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Re: Jealous of Gelugs
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2011, 06:22:58 AM »
Jealousy of Gelugs is definitely there. The Tibetan Govt from the time of the Great 5th Dalai Lama has been called 'GADEN PODRANG' or palace of Gaden. Now the Tibetan govt in exile wishes to change this name. They source 5th Dalai Lama as part of the reason to ban Dorje Shugden. But it is also the 5th Dalai Lama who named the Tibetan Govt Gaden Podrang, so they should just keep the name. why is 5th Dalai Lama right on some things and wrong on another? Isn't he the Great 5th and omniscient?

Now the Tibetan Govt in exile are discussing to change the name and to what. No conclusions yet. Are we seeing the slow formation of a non-existent Nation state or they have nothing else of importance better to do? What do you think? I think it's nothing else better to do.


I think the Tibetan government has nothing much better to do like what Thaimonk has said, so to show that they are doing something, why not think of a change of name.....In any case, what is there to do when you don't even have a country or a state to run, I hope they can think of many names and take them months or years to decide which name is appropriate. At least that would occupy them and stop them from finding ways to abuse the Shugden practitioners.

The Dalai Lama has once said," If you cannot help, at least do not harm".  So in the case of the Gelugs or DS practitioners, we should not harm  them with any form of divisive speech.

Barzin

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Re: Jealous of Gelugs
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2011, 05:07:12 PM »
I think even way before the controversy, jealousy has always been around.  Take a look at Dorje Shugden story, how that happened also due to jealousy.  I think It is just a chance for many to let it out now during this controversial time...  But it is definitely not what dharma is all about and how Lord Tsongkhapa wanted it. 

Years later, jealousy happened again... Same thing, different time.  Yet again, Dorje Shugden has to "die" again for this time...  Indeed, for a bigger picture.  When the ban subsides, it will be a good teaching for those who despise their own doctrine and guru.,,

Rihanna

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Re: Jealous of Gelugs
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2011, 04:05:25 PM »
I agree with you "Who really are we to judge?". Some lay people cant even make the right judgement in picking their spouse let alone their spiritual practice. For those who have been given this practice by their Lama and later chose to abandon it, it is time to look within themself; are they wiser than their Lama?



Actually Mana... any good moral, ethical, kind people... need not be gelugs/buddhist would probably just practice being nice/kind..

If you have nothing nice to say about someone or something, better not say it at all cos at the end of the day, what is your point? Your reason for saying? Are we better then the other that we can criticise someone for being different. Who really are we to judge? People often forget to be nice or kind which the basis of normal ethical human conduct, no need to even talk about Buddha, Gelugs or Buddhism.

So to all those who like to complain, criticise and cause disharmony, it is a clear indication you are very insecure with who you are and probably need reaffirmation to make your self feel better or ok. Funny how the tricky human jealous mind can be. It truly robes people out of true happiness and focus.... OR they really are TOO TOO FREE! Don't know what else to do but criticise others. So much time wasted on meaningless affairs.

Helena

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Re: Jealous of Gelugs
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2011, 05:36:16 PM »
May be I am alone in this view, but I cannot help but see how it does seem jealousy is a most common trait throughout the history of Tibetan Buddhism.

After all, prior to the existence of Gelug, the Sakyas and Nyingmas have enjoyed much prominence or can I even use the word - "monopoly" over Tibet. But ever since Gelugpa School of Buddhism was established, Gelug seem to have over-shadowed all other schools by becoming the fastest growing, widely accepted and in gaining more 'market share' in the world of Tibetan Buddhism. Hence, there is definitely jealousy in the Gelug's success of becoming popular and having well known Lamas.

If other schools of Buddhism can use the issue of DS as a perfect excuse and opportunity to suppress the Gelug's lineage, popularity and "power" - I would not put it pass other Gelugpa organizations using the same DS issue as the perfect reason to snuff out their fellow Gelug competitors within the Tibetan Buddhist community around the world. It would not be that difficult for me to imagine that.

As dirty as politics have always been, everything is used perfectly justifiable reasons to exterminate a threat to their success or power and authority. Spirituality and religion are not spared from dirty politics. And this is not just unique to Tibetan Buddhism. It is the same in other religious organizations.

At the end of the day, it is just a power play, power struggle and a desire to take out the 'competitors' in their same field of expertise. In this case, its Tibetan Buddhism. And they all disguise their self-serving motivations behind HHDL's ban and policies.

Just look at history - how the jealousy of the 5th Dalai Lama's attendants can justify the murder of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. The jealousy of Pabongka Rinpoche's fame can cause others to accuse Rinpoche of being sectarian, etc. And now, those who stand who 'win' or 'gain' are using the issue of DS to suppress Gelug's widespread growth. Well, it does look very much like directed specifically to Gelugpa, doesn't it?






Helena

dsiluvu

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Re: Jealous of Gelugs
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2011, 01:59:51 AM »
Jealousy of Gelugs is definitely there. The Tibetan Govt from the time of the Great 5th Dalai Lama has been called 'GADEN PODRANG' or palace of Gaden. Now the Tibetan govt in exile wishes to change this name. They source 5th Dalai Lama as part of the reason to ban Dorje Shugden. But it is also the 5th Dalai Lama who named the Tibetan Govt Gaden Podrang, so that they should just keep the name. why is 5th Dalai Lama right on some things and wrong on another? Isn't he the Great 5th and omniscient?

Now the Tibetan Govt in exile are discussing to change the name and to what. No conclusions yet. Are we seeing the slow formation of a non-existent Nation state or they have nothing else of importance better to do? What do you think? I think it's nothing else better to do.


They must be really bored now that they His Holiness has turned history around. What else can they do now since they are no longer in authority in the eyes of the world. Jealousy is definitely there... politics is after all samsara in nature and without a doubt and this is pure politics. Hopefully now with the new system and newly formed government, perhaps we can see that each sect can grow without power struggle.

 

DSFriend

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Re: Jealous of Gelugs
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2011, 10:37:36 AM »

Now the Tibetan Govt in exile are discussing to change the name and to what. No conclusions yet. Are we seeing the slow formation of a non-existent Nation state or they have nothing else of importance better to do? What do you think? I think it's nothing else better to do.


I could be over generalizing, but changing names is often associated to re-inventing a character, or doing a way of an image/persona.

Looks like perhaps there is indeed a need for TGIE especially with the new political leader in position, the need is there to create a new perception in the minds of tibetans...

I do wonder what is it that the TGIE wants to do at the end of the day for tibetans with or without a new name!


dsiluvu

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Re: Jealous of Gelugs
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2011, 11:46:17 AM »
Yes just what exactly does TGIE want to do and now with no country and no real government body what will the goals be.

Tibetans are spread out all over the world now, I think the should start focusing on better education for their people. Preserving their culture and especially their spiritual lineages because that is what they are well-known around the world for. Preserving it by teaching people and making their spiritual practice part and parcel of their beautifully rich culture instead of riots, protest and a new name.


Ensapa

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Re: Jealous of Gelugs
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2012, 12:42:01 PM »
Those who denegrade great Gelug Tulkus/Lamas/Geshes accusing them of Shugden practice are actually trying to suppress the Gelug Lineage.
Just becasue they may or may not practice Shugden does not take away from their learning, hardwork, studies, meditations, practices and in some cases attainments. Those who are jealous or against Gelug School specifically target Gelug teachers to bring them down by saying they engage in Shugden. This is the short term trend at this time.

In many scenarios, this is very, very clear. A good example is the esangha forums. Whether or not a Lama is a DS practitioner, it is in reality irrelevant at all because DS practitioner or not, the Lama is still qualified and is still spreading and practicing the pure Dharma. So why accuse Dorje Shugden Lamas of being bad or evil and that we should not go for them for teachings? (this is more widespread in FPMT and amongst Nyingma, Kagyu and Sakya.

We have to beware, accusing Gelug Teachers has become something political to suppress them due to various reasons that are not arising from good motivation. We must stop this trend of sectarianism against the Gelug School of Buddhism by not participating in it and not degrading teachers of the Gelug School nor any School. Why hurt your own family? Those within Gelug should stop accusing eachother of Shugden. It does not fulfill our long term goals as intended by Father Tsongkapa.

I do notice this trend and I do find it very sad that Gelugs would actually do such things back to people of their own lineage. For the sake of fame and being on the Dalai Lama's side, they sell out their own tradition and encourage their students to center hop or lama hop just to appear to be nonsectarian and from there, the wrong idea about being nonsectarian begins.

Mana

At this point, I'd like to say that it is pretty sad that people cannot see through such political games and continue and do things of this nature all the time. For me, I know better...but what about people who dont? Who will be responsible if they end up in a Dharma limbo due to wrong information?

vajratruth

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Re: Jealous of Gelugs
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2012, 10:51:43 AM »

After all, prior to the existence of Gelug, the Sakyas and Nyingmas have enjoyed much prominence or can I even use the word - "monopoly" over Tibet. But ever since Gelugpa School of Buddhism was established, Gelug seem to have over-shadowed all other schools by becoming the fastest growing, widely accepted and in gaining more 'market share' in the world of Tibetan Buddhism. Hence, there is definitely jealousy in the Gelug's success of becoming popular and having well known Lamas.

If other schools of Buddhism can use the issue of DS as a perfect excuse and opportunity to suppress the Gelug's lineage, popularity and "power" - I would not put it pass other Gelugpa organizations using the same DS issue as the perfect reason to snuff out their fellow Gelug competitors within the Tibetan Buddhist community around the world. It would not be that difficult for me to imagine that.


Tibet was very much dominated by Bon prior to the arrival of Padmasambhava.

In the 7th Century the Tibetan King Srontsan Gampo introduced Buddhism into Tibet  but was forced to expel all Buddhism Teachers from the land when some calamities occurred and the Bon took it as a sign that Buddhism was bad for Tibet.

In the 8th Century The Indian Master Shantirakshita attempted to revive Buddhism in Tibet but was again met with a lot of objections from Bon leaders who sought every opportunity to call for the expulsion of the Buddhist Master on the excuse that Bon Gods have been angered by their presence in Tibet. Later Shantirakshita was invited to return but he said forces in Tibet was too strong and that only Padmasambhava can help.

Padmasambhava spent 50 years subduing demons all over Tibet and forced them to work for the good of Tibet under a Buddhist framework. Essentially the form of Buddhism that evolved out of that was heavily influenced by tantra and the worshipping Tibetan deities and gods.

In the 11th Century, Atisha came to Tibet to again revive Buddhism based on Buddhist scriptures but also having to strike a balance with the popular practices at that time. Resistance to Atisha's attempts was the reason Tibetan Buddhism broke into different schools - the Kadampa who took Atisha's advice; the Kargyupa and Sakyapa which wanted to retain the traditional practice of worshipping Tibetan gods and deities; the Nyingmapa which totally rejected Atisha's views and continued with heavily tantric influenced practices of Padmasanbhava and Bon.

Then came the great Je Tsongkhapa in the 15th Century, to continue with Atisha's reforms, and established the Gelugpa which emphasized the importance of keeping the Buddha's teachings pure. The Buddha himself predicted that Tsongkhapa would be the one to revitalise Buddhism in Tibet and to restore the teachings after they have been polluted, and to bring about a correct lineage.

With such an illuminous founder validated by the Buddha himself, continuing the work of the great Atisha, and whose lineage has been upheld by so many popular Grand Masters such as the Dalai Lamas, Pabongkha Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche and so on, who were well known to be highly attained teachers, and having founded the most important Buddhist Universities of Ganden, Sera and Drepung, it is only natural that many become jealous of  the Gelugpas spiritual ascendancy.

On a secular and perhaps unfortunately the Dalai Lamas whilst not the throne-holders of the Gelugpas, are regarded as the Spiritual Head of all the different sects.  Therein lies much of the politics as any head of an institution with many different sects will encounter. The Dalai Lamas have the difficult task of having to unify Tibet by having to cater to each sectarian needs and wishes, while also having to uphold the purity of the Gelugpa's teachings. Politics and spiritual correctness do not always share the same goals.

To my observation, the present Dorje Shugden controversy is not only a problem for Shugden practitioners alone but also  for the Gelugpas as a whole. Dorje Shugden's main objective is to protect the purity of the Gelugpa's lineage which in turn was established to turn the Buddha's teachings away from dilution and corruption. To undermine a Gelugpa lama is like undermining the work of Buddha Tsongkhapa himself. Those who do from within the Gelugpas are focussing more on politics and forgetting why the Gelugpas was formed to beging with.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 04:58:37 PM by vajratruth »

shugdenpromoter

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Re: Jealous of Gelugs
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2012, 12:11:07 PM »
This entire Shugden affair has created so much division within the Gelugpa and without. There are hardly any Gelugpa lamas now who are internationally respected - of course the Dalai Lama is still up there, but HH Trijang Rinpoche, HH Pabongkha Rinpoche, HE Gangchen Rinpoche, HH Gaden Trisur are all low profile or outcast because of their practice. HH Trijang Choktrul has even preferred to become a lay Lama rather than get involved in the politics.


Dear Wisdom Being,

I totally agree with you. I am someone who travels to India and Nepal very often and the friction and division between the gelugpa are so blatant. It is very sad. Look, they have lost their country, there are already many division in Tibetan Buddhism in GENERAL. Now, with the Gelugpa, more division.

If you look at a outsider prespective, how on earth will they regain their country back. They are not united. Sad. Even their government have been downgraded to just administration office.

And yet, the Tibetans still critise non stop on high lamas such as Trijang & Pabongkha Rinpoche. By right, they are assets to the Tibetans, they should PROMOTE no DEMOTE them. Sad  :-\

samayakeeper

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Re: Jealous of Gelugs
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2012, 03:12:09 PM »
I have heard and thought that Buddhism teaches good values and in the past no major conflicts with other religions resulted in wars with big casualties. But with this ongoing ban so many innocent people had been hurt physically, emotionally, psychologically, financially, and some lost their lives.

Will this break up more Buddhists leading to more unrest and casualties? What happened to all the teachings taught by our Great Buddha? What will happen to the Lamrim and to the Gelugpa lineage? What will happen to Buddhism? What will happen to those Buddhist practitioners, sangha and lay people?

Big Uncle

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Re: Jealous of Gelugs
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2012, 07:22:37 PM »
Its is all very strange to have Lamas pitting against each other in the name of Dorje Shugden practice... The Nyingmas have always had a bone to pick with Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche and various stalwart Lamas because they advocated Dorje Shugden and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche in his hey-day was infinitely popular amongst the lay population, which represented an encroached territory of the Nyingmas.

Hence, the Nyingma's popularity dwindled in the past and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche became even more famous than before. I believe the same can be said of the current situation of the ban and eventually the ban would be lifted because we live in a modern pluralistic society.

Ensapa

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Re: Jealous of Gelugs
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2012, 04:08:10 AM »
Its is all very strange to have Lamas pitting against each other in the name of Dorje Shugden practice... The Nyingmas have always had a bone to pick with Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche and various stalwart Lamas because they advocated Dorje Shugden and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche in his hey-day was infinitely popular amongst the lay population, which represented an encroached territory of the Nyingmas.
I dont find it strange at all. There will always be jealous people around. Not all Nyingmas are against Dorje Shugden, those who are secure with their own Dharma practice overlook Dorje Shugden, and pay no attention to him at all whatsoever. Penor Rinpoche has not spoken anything against Dorje Shugden to my knowledge, and neither has Dzongzar Khyentse Rinpoche, although his previous incarnation is apparently famous for destroying Dorje Shugden shrines with his tantric powers. But not in this life, apparently. So, just because a few Nyingmas who are anti Dorje Shugden does not mean that each and every Nyingma Lama are anti Shugden. They just ignore the whole fiasco.

Hence, the Nyingma's popularity dwindled in the past and Kyabje Pabongka Rinpoche became even more famous than before. I believe the same can be said of the current situation of the ban and eventually the ban would be lifted because we live in a modern pluralistic society.
Its due to insecurity that they made those accusations against Pabongkha Rinpoche as he has mastery also of the Nyingma termas and teachings (but are not teaching or passing them due to his promise to Dorje Shugden). The real thing that 'weakened' their lineage is the Rime movement, destroying barriers and their identities with it. Gelug did not join the movement and they only grew from strength to strength. Jealousy can be a horrible thing, even amongst Dharma practitioners, it seems.

It should be noted that other than the Nyingmas, the Kagyus were also very threatened by Pabongkha Rinpoche's and Trijang Rinpoche's presence and they also said bad things against them. Its just jealousy, part of human nature and nothing to be shocked about. But we should be aware that their animosity against Dorje Shugden is due to jealousy and we should forgive them.

kris

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Re: Jealous of Gelugs
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2012, 07:14:16 AM »
In tradition, Buddhism is tolerating and encompassing, meaning it does not force other to convert nor discriminate other religions. Buddhism does not believe in a creator god, but for religions who believe, Buddhism is very tolerating.

However, when it comes to this Dorje Shugden matter, its stand has suddenly changed. I must say that not all of Buddhism, but the people in CTA is pretty much very discriminative.

I would really like to see that Buddhism is tolerating and encompassing, especially towards its own sects.. I sure hope that the motivation to bring down Gelug is not real because the karma will be very heavy...

dsiluvu

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Re: Jealous of Gelugs
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2012, 10:05:47 PM »
In tradition, Buddhism is tolerating and encompassing, meaning it does not force other to convert nor discriminate other religions. Buddhism does not believe in a creator god, but for religions who believe, Buddhism is very tolerating.

However, when it comes to this Dorje Shugden matter, its stand has suddenly changed. I must say that not all of Buddhism, but the people in CTA is pretty much very discriminative.

I would really like to see that Buddhism is tolerating and encompassing, especially towards its own sects.. I sure hope that the motivation to bring down Gelug is not real because the karma will be very heavy...