Author Topic: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?  (Read 24418 times)

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2010, 08:39:11 PM »
I have been wondering whats wrong with saying you don't practice
.....
thoughts?

Well, if one does the practice, and then says that one does not, or acts in a way that gives the impression of not practicing, then one has made a lie. One has made a big boo-boo, dharmawise. One has acted in non-conformity of the ten wholesome actions, or in other words, one has made one of the ten unwholesome actions. These two pairs of tens, happen to be the very core of Buddhist ethics. And progressively, after this basic level of Refuge-ethics, there comes the Pratimoksha, according to which lying or misleading is also unethical. And then there comes the Bodhisattv......... and so forth, but anyways, I'll guess you get the drift.

The question is not framed in a political sense, but in a karmic sense, or a Buddhist sense, for all of us Buddhist practitioners. Sure it would be easier to just lie about our practice, for then no politician would ever "spit on us", but then on the other hand, what is a practice worth if you have to lie about it. Could one say or claim or maintain that one is a practitioner of any form of Buddhism if one had to lie about one's practices, and thereby, through that very act of lying break the fundamental basic ethics of Buddhism?

thor

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Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2010, 09:54:24 PM »
...Could one say or claim or maintain that one is a practitioner of any form of Buddhism if one had to lie about one's practices, and thereby, through that very act of lying break the fundamental basic ethics of Buddhism?

That's just my point. All the Sangha who are secretly practising after having sworn in are lying then - lying being defined not just by words alone but also by leading others to the wrong conclusion without actually speaking any untruths. And what of those lamas who are also practising in secret?

DharmaDefender

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Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2010, 10:06:29 PM »
...Could one say or claim or maintain that one is a practitioner of any form of Buddhism if one had to lie about one's practices, and thereby, through that very act of lying break the fundamental basic ethics of Buddhism?

That's just my point. All the Sangha who are secretly practising after having sworn in are lying then - lying being defined not just by words alone but also by leading others to the wrong conclusion without actually speaking any untruths. And what of those lamas who are also practising in secret?

Well, what of lamas like HH 101st Gaden Tripa? Was it wrong that he stayed in a position supported by the Dalai Lama, whilst secretly practising Dorje Shugden all this while? Does his actions make him a hypocrite? Or did he do the right thing by remaining silent for a while? Is it better to practise in secret, avoid ostracism to come out at the right time, and use your practice as an inspiration to others?

If we say lamas who practise in secret are lying, then we cannot use their stories and examples as inspirations for our own practice.

I don't think lying is easy for a lot of them because (1) it's a conscious choice to contradict their vows (2) their love for Dorje Shugden is so great that it wouldn't be easy to lie about their practice. I think unveiling yourself as a practitioner is a matter of the right place, at the right time. Unfortunately for many of us, we're not in a position to judge said right place and time, and rely on our gurus for this guidance.

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2010, 10:54:43 PM »
...Could one say or claim or maintain that one is a practitioner of any form of Buddhism if one had to lie about one's practices, and thereby, through that very act of lying break the fundamental basic ethics of Buddhism?

That's just my point. All the Sangha who are secretly practising after having sworn in are lying then - lying being defined not just by words alone but also by leading others to the wrong conclusion without actually speaking any untruths. And what of those lamas who are also practising in secret?

Well, what of lamas like HH 101st Gaden Tripa? Was it wrong that he stayed in a position supported by the Dalai Lama, whilst secretly practising Dorje Shugden all this while? Does his actions make him a hypocrite? Or did he do the right thing by remaining silent for a while? Is it better to practise in secret, avoid ostracism to come out at the right time, and use your practice as an inspiration to others?

If we say lamas who practise in secret are lying, then we cannot use their stories and examples as inspirations for our own practice.

My view of Tripa is that he made a good political choice. And yet, he lied, either by words or acts, or by silence and inactivity. Whether he was a hypocrite depends on whether he actively said anything against his own practice. As to the question of what "practice style" is good or better, depends on what one's aims are. Tripa obviously did not aim at truthfullness. (And to those who like the idea of 'High Lamas' playing political games, I say that whatever is built on untruth, will not last, and even if it would last, it would not be worth a truth, or somethinglikethat.)

And as for being inspired... well, that depends on the person concerned. I peronally am not very inspired by liars, cowards or politicians.

AtmoAgathonKhirad

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Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2010, 07:46:52 PM »
I think there is some confusion. I also was almost surprised, but only almost, when the DL did not help the monks in Burma, for anyone could see, that such a sudden start with demonstrations before loaded guns, will bring trouble. I wrote him therfore. But the message was only deleted. It is very dangeous, if the monks themselfs could not see the bloody happening to come. What kind of meditation do they live, not to see it? But even more should have the DL seen it. What kind of compassion is this not to tell to the monks to slow dawn a little bit with demonstartin before loaded guns. And anyway there would be profound solutions, but the DL did not share them. Certainly they are not shareable, so he should have "shared" them.

Geronimo

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Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2010, 10:13:14 PM »
"The effect we have on others when we make them happy without motive and when their mind is happy because of us - THAT IS DHARMA. "
 
 
-extracted from If Not Now, When?

 H.E. Tsem Tulku Rinpoche

vajra power

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Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2010, 10:17:10 AM »
I have been wondering whats wrong with saying you don't practice

1) its supposed to be a secret practice anyways
2) you save the people trying to enforce a ban from creating more negative karma
3) if people ever find out you are a practitioner hopefully your actions up till then show you to be a good person and shining example of the practice
4) if your not tibetan or in a monastery the ban doesn't affect you anyway
5) your protector is an enlightened being and will see your true motivation
6) you can share dharma without the politics

Is there anything wrong with this?
thoughts?
" If your not tibetan or in a monastery the ban doesn't affect you anyway"
wow! what a logic !! Have you ever given deep thought over this issue. It is not a question of whether this effects you personally but rather the very act of banning the practice. No body has right to ban this practice even if it is wrong- as they call it. Dharma & politic will always intermingle. Politician see dharma as tools to accomplish their goal and it becomes the duty of every follower to stand up for their believe and faith.

a friend

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Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2010, 10:15:50 PM »
Zhalmed Pawo, sorry that when we are in agreement, at least me in agreement with your statements, which happens a lot, I don´t answer. So much activity around here as of late thanks to our friends the N...s.

But I needed to say something about the Ganden Trisur, former Ganden Tripa: he did do something. While being Ganden Tripa, in full command of his own power, he extended a certificate to TBR, the Trijang Buddhist Center, which is the Labdang and Dharma Center for Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, declaring that the people there were perfectly and legitimately spreading the BuddhaDharma (this is by heart) and  the teachings of Ganden Mountain.

Now, if that is inactivity, then I wonder what activity is.

Because as we have repeated a thousand times more or less in this website, the prominent monks that you can see in the demo´s videos of 2008 are TBR monks, and this is not a secret, most everybody knows this.

Now this is something that is there, for history, for everybody to know for ever and ever: that the Ganden Tripa gave his seal of approval to Trijang Buddhist Center.

Only for this it was worthwhile that he stayed as Ganden Tripa for so long and in silence. What he did is monumental, and we should all be grateful for his intelligence and faithfulness.

In view of this, I don´t think it´s fair to proclaim that he waited until the end of his tenure occupying the throne of Ganden to express his views. Both in the East and in the West actions are worth a thousand words, and his action was a proclamation of this own faith and practice.
____________________________________________________________________________

In a general way I think that we should respect those Lamas that "stayed" without uttering one word for encouraging people to follow the ban, or against our Protector. They are numerous, and I for one do not have the capacity for judging them, except for saying: they might´ve had a good reason.

About those actively promoting the ban or publicly berating our practice, our Deity and so forth, I don´t wish to talk, I'm happy that I'm not their judge, I just am so sorry for them.

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2010, 02:32:15 PM »
Hello a friend. Yes indeed, the Tripa did do that. While it is little, it still is something, so you are correct: The Tripa did not merely sit silent, but actually did something positive about the whole thing. Thank you for reminding me.

I have thought a bit more about this issue of "silent Lamas", and here are some of my thoughts - not conclusions, but just thoughts:

Generally most Buddhist Teachers are purely reactive. For instance, they do not teach unless asked to teach. In a way, it is the Buddhist Way to sit in silence, and not go teaching or running helping others unless the teachings or the help is requested. To do otherwise is seen as proselytizing. This means, that Buddhist authorities are not proactive, they merely react. The Buddhist style is reactive. Therefore most Lamas, no matter what their view about some issue is, remain in silence.

However, the DL did become proactive over this one branch of practice, called DS. He was not content in merely answering questions presented to him over the practice (if there ever even was those questions), but became proactive by 'showeling his opinions' over others. He broke the traditional mold of being reactive by becoming proactive. He became a prozelytizer, although a negative one; he did not speak for a Dharma-teaching, but against a Dharma-teaching. And he spoke what he spoke without anyone requestioning it. So the main point is, that he became proactive, not merely responding. He has even stated this himself. He has said that he feels it is his responsibility to warn others, and so forth. Instead of merely expressing his opinion when asked, he took the role of "truth-yeller", proclaiming his vision, whether it was wanted or requested.

But as this proactive stance of the DL was seen by many to be negative in content, it compelled some to act, but act only as a reactionist. Therefore the actions taken, for instance, by GKG, are reactive, not proactive. They arose only because the wrong-conceived proactivity of the DL; they arose as a mere reaction. So although many maintain the view that the "1996 protests" by NKT were non-Buddhist in spirit, they nevertheless were more Buddhist that the ban and public condemnations by the DL, because they were reactive in nature. (Do note, that I'm now not taking into the account whether the view, or the content, is correct - I'm only commenting on the action. Whether the DS is or is not a Buddha or a demon has nothing to do with what I'm discussing here.) The same goes to the more recent WSS-protests. Neither of the 'protests waves' were made to promote any Buddhist Deity, view, or teaching, but they were made merely as a reaction to ill-adviced proactivity done by the DL. The WSS is not promoting anything positive, but only reacting to something negative, in a true Buddhist reactive spirit. WSS is not proselytizing.

If what I have written above is true, there might be some implications:

- Most of the Lamas will be silent in the future also, unless specifically asked and requested. The initiative must come from outside. From us.

- To promote DS is wrong, because it would be proselytizising. It is enough for us all to oppose the "negative-content proselytization" of the DL. To do more, is bad form. We can of course openly tell that this is our practice and present it's history, benefits, and so forth, but if we step further, and start to think, or even worse proclaim, that DS will be the next global Über-Buddha, we have went too far (and in fact would be just like those mistaken ones who say that the DL is "the Leader of All Buddhists of this Earth" andwhatever.)



So all in all, now I in a sense understand why many Lamas remain silent: They just weren't asked to speak. 8) But then, the question still emains: Why didn't they react?

honeydakini

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Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2010, 04:06:16 PM »
I think that if we debate why the Lamas do or do not react, or why they react / act in the way that they do, we will be here forever and get none the closer to understanding or getting the truth.

There are many things that the Lamas do which may be beyond our understanding at this time. I believe that the lamas take on different methods and "roles" like a large symphony that will ultimately help all different mind sets, dispositions and people around the world.

I also believe that for many of these highly attained Lamas, it is not so much what they do or do not do, but their motivation behind it or their aspirations, which are far beyond what we can probably conceive at our lower levels of practice, learning and realisation. For some, "lying" about a practice is not so much about the actual act of "lying" but about what the results may bring in the long term. For some, speaking out and saying outright that they are doing the practice will bring more benefit; for some lamas, it may be more detrimental at that time.

I think that while it's good we discuss and look at what other lamas are doing or saying - to gain a fuller understanding of different points of views and stances - I think we must be careful not to fall into a trap of saying "why don't the lamas do this?" or "why don't they do that?" or "they should do this instead of that". I'm not saying that anyone is doing that here as i understand everyone is just trying to get a better understanding, but it's just something we should be aware of - after all, we aren't yet at a level to be questioning in a way that assumes we know better than the lamas.

my own teachers have always advised me that different lamas will take on different facets - much like the different emanations of the buddhas, which assume peaceful, wrathful, controlling methods etc. so what may seem like "lying" from one Lama may not be to another lama... and the results that arise from both lamas doing the same action could be totally different.

WisdomBeing

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Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2010, 04:15:05 PM »
I think it's called crazy wisdom or mahasiddha actions. I have long since learned not to question these holy Lamas because it usually does make sense in the end! I've travelled with various Rinpoches and on a superficial level, they drive the lay people nuts because they don't keep to timetables or schedules and a travelling tour is almost ALL about keeping to the schedule. It's really quite entertaining if we don't get sucked into it. Just let go and follow the leader!

Likewise, whatever a monk or Lama does - i believe that if we don't understand it, we shouldn't make judgement on it because either way you win. If the monk is right, you can thank Buddha you didn't wrongly condemn him. If the monk is wrong, you still shouldn't criticise the sangha, especially as we have not been keeping the same number of vows as the monk. So either way, the best is to just shut up and drive!
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Lineageholder

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Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2010, 04:27:59 PM »
I think it's called crazy wisdom or mahasiddha actions.

So that means we can excuse any bad behaviour or negative actions?  Perhaps the Dalai Lama's persecution of Dorje Shugden practitioners is just crazy wisdom?  'Dont criticise the Master, he's just displaying his crazy wisdom aspect' - I'm sorry, but that's not good enough in the Kali Yurga.  In this age, people act crazy anyway.  How can you tell the difference between someone who is crazy and someone who is realized and acts crazy?  From the point of view of our experience, we can't, so if a Guru is really kind, they will display exemplary disciplined conduct so that we can tell the difference.  The time of' 'Tilopas and Naropas' is past: society will not accept this crazy behaviour and it doesn't encourage faith.  Faith is the important thing.  Faith is hard enough to develop these days without the Guru's behaviour making it even harder, imho.

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2010, 07:06:48 PM »
Dear honeydakini and WisdomBeing: It seems, that you believe in the "Great Plan", "the utter godliness of the title-holders", and the "personal unworthiness of the practitioner". The last mentioned person was you, you mind.

That kind of attitude might be helpful in Hinduism or Christianism, but in Buddhism it merely prevents any progress or growth. It makes the Path impossible.

To put this short: If you think that you cannot make moral judgements, you are beyond help. A mere animal slave waiting for the Master's call.

If you are a Buddhist, you'll agree...
...yes?


dsnowlion

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Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2010, 10:26:16 PM »
I think it's called crazy wisdom or mahasiddha actions.

So that means we can excuse any bad behaviour or negative actions?  Perhaps the Dalai Lama's persecution of Dorje Shugden practitioners is just crazy wisdom?  'Dont criticise the Master, he's just displaying his crazy wisdom aspect' - I'm sorry, but that's not good enough in the Kali Yurga.  In this age, people act crazy anyway.  How can you tell the difference between someone who is crazy and someone who is realized and acts crazy?  From the point of view of our experience, we can't, so if a Guru is really kind, they will display exemplary disciplined conduct so that we can tell the difference.  The time of' 'Tilopas and Naropas' is past: society will not accept this crazy behaviour and it doesn't encourage faith.  Faith is the important thing.  Faith is hard enough to develop these days without the Guru's behaviour making it even harder, imho.

It is definitely not excuse for any man to act badly. But a Thai Dharma practitioner once told me, if a man is in robes, so long as the man wears the robe representing the Buddha, we as lay people cannot simply say negative things or judge for the -ve karma is the same as criticizing a Buddha. Whether the monk is fake, real or not, it is for his karma to judge him not us. We can act on our decide to decide to listen to that monk or leave and ignore. But because we are lay people it is very wrong for us to judge a monk. Why? For 1. we don't hold monk vows, 2. we are not ordained 3. we don not know for sure the monks motivation and only judging from an outer appearance and what we project a monk should be. What more a Lama/Teacher. If we start judging our Gurus, start to see fault in our Gurus, slowly we might even see fault in the Buddhas too. Actually isn't all we perceive of how someone should behave are just mere projections of what we think should and should not be?

I think so long as the result does not hurt anyone, create more suffering, unhappy minds like what Lhakpa has said in a beautiful quote, that is most important to ask ourselves. Why should we be so busy looking a lamas, shouldn't we be looking within ourselves first? 

I think Questioning is fine and debating for the motivation to understand and clear away doubts if great. But not to purposely just stir up argument for argument sake, and to see who is right or wrong as that would only serve our pride and ego. The whole system or questioning and debate came from Tibetan Buddhism anyway. It is there as training to sharpen our minds in undersatnding of the Dharma in order to not have blind faith but true conviction through logic. That is what I've learn.

WisdomBeing you are very fortunate to be so close to your Guru and to be able to even experience that kind of crazy training. I too have similar experience. But I am afraid not many people can share our experience cos maybe some of their Guru's are far away or they don't see their Gurus very often let alone spend "time" with their Gurus at such close proximity. Hence some may not relate to yours and my experience. 

Never the less, I personally do not think Gaden Trisur lied, even if he did it wouldn't be negative. It would be like the Buddha who lied to hunter on where the deer went.

cheers!   

Judging our teachers/lamas ought to stop after we have decided to take refuge with the particular lama. Once a Guru - Student relationship is created we start practicing Guru Devotion with the Nine Attitudes who are more extraordinary than all the Buddhas. 

a friend

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Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2010, 02:07:44 AM »
Dear Zhalmed Pawo:
Thank you for your answer. It´s an interesting theory the "proactive" and "reactive" pattern you have found. I know that no category ever encompasses what my Gurus were, so I agree with the restrictive "mostly" or "for the most part" that you use.
I just with to comment on a couple of your conclusions.

Quote
Most of the Lamas will be silent in the future also, unless specifically asked and requested. The initiative must come from outside. From us.

I suspect this can be true, at least in the personal level. If you don´t ask, they won´t tell you. I never tried requesting them to do this or that, like "please go public" or some such. But as I said in another post, I did ask a Lama of our lineage (actually 2 Lamas of our lineage) about the matter of speaking about the deeds of the Dalai Lama concerning the ban, and both told me that it was correct to tell others that what the DL did was wrong. I never asked them why they were not publicly doing this or that, because both are openly keeping with their Protector´s practice so it never came to mind to ask them, "why you don´t go to demonstrations" or "why don´t you publish letters" ... I´m very happy with their mere existence among us, they know what they are doing, that is for sure.

Quote
- To promote DS is wrong, because it would be proselytizising. It is enough for us all to oppose the "negative-content proselytization" of the DL. To do more, is bad form. We can of course openly tell that this is our practice and present it's history, benefits, and so forth, but if we step further, and start to think, or even worse proclaim, that DS will be the next global Über-Buddha, we have went too far (and in fact would be just like those mistaken ones who say that the DL is "the Leader of All Buddhists of this Earth" andwhatever.)

In a general way I agree with you. I just don´t understand how you can promote a tantric deity. When you know the requisites for being a recipient of the Tantra knowledge then this idea of promoting our holy Protector seems to me entirely alien to our system´s ways and procedures. On the other hand, I wouldn´t dare say that it is "wrong" in any absolute way. I can imagine that some Teacher could legitimately do this, given some circomstances.

Quote
So all in all, now I in a sense understand why many Lamas remain silent: They just weren't asked to speak.  But then, the question still emains: Why didn't they react?

I think there might be many different reasons according to the person. I´m not prone to see any "grand plan", and my own Gurus never did anything that would demand interpretation as "a grand mysterious plan" to be understood, happy me. Now, with the small knowledge I have of different people in the Tibetan system, I think there might be a number of reasons just personal, that I for one would not be able to judge and don´t wish to judge.
Some of them might just react as Kadampas ... they just do not defend themselves. So if the Protector issue is "their" thing, then they will remain silent and yield whatever victory for the world to see to the other party. Others might be just disliking the manners. We don´t realize how different manners there are among our nations and there are some things among the ones "our side" has been doing that are just "bad manners" for some people. Others might be defending the minds of some of their disciples, starryeyed with the Dalai Lama. Others might be defending the feelings of their fellow Tibetans, who see the Dalai Lama as the icon of their nation. And so on and so forth. There is no need to see in the Lamas' actions gigantic motivations. They are human too. So some might have gigantic motivations, others, more personal ones. That´s fine with me.
I repeat: I´m just talking about the Lamas who did not condemn the Dalai Lama but who did not approve of the ban nor encouraged people to follow it. I think they are quite numerous. I´m not talking about those who praise the Dalai Lama for the ban and advice people to follow the Dalai Lama´s advice.  These, I don´t even want to think about them, except for praying for them as I do for every mother sentient being.