dorjeshugden.com

About Dorje Shugden => General Discussion => Topic started by: iloveds on February 04, 2010, 08:47:31 AM

Title: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: iloveds on February 04, 2010, 08:47:31 AM
I have been wondering whats wrong with saying you don't practice

1) its supposed to be a secret practice anyways
2) you save the people trying to enforce a ban from creating more negative karma
3) if people ever find out you are a practitioner hopefully your actions up till then show you to be a good person and shining example of the practice
4) if your not tibetan or in a monastery the ban doesn't affect you anyway
5) your protector is an enlightened being and will see your true motivation
6) you can share dharma without the politics

Is there anything wrong with this?
thoughts?
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: Ensapa on February 04, 2010, 09:09:42 AM
its an open secret in Gaden that  many lamas are secretly practicing DS..the high ones despite saying "i dont". Because they have their commitments. DL himself says he knows nothing about Kalachakra hehehehahhahahah

who knows if DL does it secretly and he's just generating all this to let people see how stupid tibetans can be hehe and to tame them from exploding china.

Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: Lineageholder on February 04, 2010, 09:24:32 AM
who knows if DL does it secretly and he's just generating all this to let people see how stupid tibetans can be hehe and to tame them from exploding china.


Oh boy, I'm laughing now!  ;D  Thanks for the joke!

So now the Dalai Lama may be secretly doing the practice (it has to be in secret because he banned the practice, *wink*) that he has banned and that he speaks out against at every public teaching he gives?

You wonder why I accuse you of illogical and wrong views....thanks for the laugh!

Perhaps the Dalai Lama is also secretly being paid by the Chinese government to keep being incompetent so that the issue of Tibetan independence will never be addressed?

Let's have some more wacky conspiracy theories, everyone!  Brighten my day!
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: Ensapa on February 04, 2010, 09:35:04 AM
who knows if DL does it secretly and he's just generating all this to let people see how stupid tibetans can be hehe and to tame them from exploding china.


Oh boy, I'm laughing now!  ;D  Thanks for the joke!

So now the Dalai Lama may be secretly doing the practice (it has to be in secret because he banned the practice, *wink*) that he has banned and that he speaks out against at every public teaching he gives?

You wonder why I accuse you of illogical and wrong views....thanks for the laugh!

Perhaps the Dalai Lama is also secretly being paid by the Chinese government to keep being incompetent so that the issue of Tibetan independence will never be addressed?

Let's have some more wacky conspiracy theories, everyone!  Brighten my day!

your evidence is as good as mine lol. I had a good laugh at your earlier accusations against DL too.

i am still wondering why many high lamas who practice Shudgen still love DL and you dont. Obviously they know the full story haha

have you even talk to any of them? no? I think you should. I talked to many of them so i get a better picture hehe
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: DharmaDefender on February 04, 2010, 09:52:51 AM
who knows if DL does it secretly and he's just generating all this to let people see how stupid tibetans can be hehe and to tame them from exploding china.


Oh boy, I'm laughing now!  ;D  Thanks for the joke!

So now the Dalai Lama may be secretly doing the practice (it has to be in secret because he banned the practice, *wink*) that he has banned and that he speaks out against at every public teaching he gives?

You wonder why I accuse you of illogical and wrong views....thanks for the laugh!

Perhaps the Dalai Lama is also secretly being paid by the Chinese government to keep being incompetent so that the issue of Tibetan independence will never be addressed?

Let's have some more wacky conspiracy theories, everyone!  Brighten my day!

your evidence is as good as mine lol. I had a good laugh at your earlier accusations against DL too.

i am still wondering why many high lamas who practice Shudgen still love DL and you dont. Obviously they know the full story haha

have you even talk to any of them? no? I think you should. I talked to many of them so i get a better picture hehe

I did wonder that actually, but never got an answer - why do lamas such as Trijang Rinpoche, Zong Rinpoche, Ganchen Rinpoche, etc never speak out? How come they only show their love for Dorje Shugden, etc through their actions of practice? Why aren't they the ones hollering in the streets? Surely lamas from Shar Gaden, for example, could come out in force saying no, the Dalai Lama is wrong and we hate him, and loads of people would listen...but they haven't come out like that?

Evidently, someone is going to claim this is more noob stuff and I'm uninformed...so someone please inform me!
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: Mohani on February 04, 2010, 09:57:01 AM
The last time Ganden protested back in the 90's they got attacked. I think the fact that Trijangs teacher was at the Demo's in the UK says something. It is dangerous for tibetans to speak up, look at what the pro DL tibetans did in NY!
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: Mohani on February 04, 2010, 10:02:06 AM
Shar Ganden and Ser pom have been working with the WSS and support what they have done, it has helped them immensly. It has given them the confidence to make a stand and know they have support from people around the world. Not everyone needs to make a loud noise in the street to be helping, but making a loud noise has helped.
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: Lineageholder on February 04, 2010, 10:23:05 AM
Everyone knows everyone else in the Tibetan community.

I heard that there was a Tibetan monk at the WSS protests whose brother owned a restaurant in NY frequented by the Tibetan community.  The Tibetans on the Dalai Lama's side were going around taking pictures of the protestors, and this guy was identified.

The Tibetan community in NY boycotted the brother's restaurant, and as a result he soon went out of business.  If you are publicy seen to disagree with the Dalai Lama, these things happen.  Even the Panchen Lama had to flee Tibet because of a disagreement with the 13th Dalai Lama.

This is just one example of the evil that this ban has led to and how it is impossible to be within the Tibetan community and oppose the Dalai Lama without very severe penalties.
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: LosangKhyentse on February 04, 2010, 10:34:38 AM
Mohani is right. The last time the monks 'protested' peacefully in Gaden in the 90's they were severely attacked by the lay ppl with stones, curses, sticks and breaking of windows. Many had to be taken to the clinic. As scary as it sounds, monks were attacked by the lay people surrounding Gaden. Gaden is in Mundgod Tibetan Settlement which at that time had around 14-16,000 Tibetans of which Gaden made up 3,300 of the population. Drepung nearby made up around 4,000 monks. So the remaining other half are lay ppl who were incited by the representative of Dalai Lama to attack the monks. I have close friends who were there.

There are 24 official Tibetan Settlements throughout India. Each settlement has an office where a Tibetan Govt official is chosen to 'run' each settlement and report back to the Tibetan Govt in exile in Dharamsala. Any orders, news or announcements from Dharamsala is disseminated through these representatives in each of the settlements. So The representative of Mundgod settlement encouraged the ppl to rally AGAINST THE MONKS WHO WERE PROTESTING AGAINST THE BAN PEACEABLY. Of course the Tibetan Govt in exile condoned the Mundgod representative's actions because they gave the order to do so.

So peaceful or any protests about taboo subjects such as the Tibetan Govt's corruption, inability to get autonomy for Tibet, biasness, Dorje Shugden IS NOT ALLOWED. The Tibetan Govt in Exile's definition of Democracy is very different to say the least. Actually everything is handpicked and chosen by the Dalai Lama himself. Even the abbots of each Sera, Drepung, Gaden, Gyuto, Gyurme, Namgyal, Nechung are all chosen directly by the Dalai Lama himself. All the abbots these days MUST FALL IN LINE WITH HIS POLICIES OR THEY WILL BE ASKED TO REMOVE THEMSELVES AS IN THE CASES OF THE PREVIOUS ABBOTS OF BOTH GADEN SHARTSE AND JANGTSE. Hence the 101st Gaden Tripa defected to Shar Gaden Monastery AFTER HIS 7 YEAR TERM AS TRIPA ENDED.

Protests against pervailing policies by Dalai Lama and Tibetan Govt are a ABSOLUTE NO-NO. Clear example is no one is allowed within Tibetan community to say 'When I grow up I wish to be the president, next Dalai Lama or Prime Minister' as that would be tantamount to treason. Hence, they have a huge dilemma. The Dalai Lama has been in power for the last 50+ years. No one is allowed to be groomed to be the next leader, because it is inconcievable another person can be or allowed to replace the Dalai Lama. Only his 'enlightened' rule can save Tibet. The irony is that Tibet has lost it's country and not getting it back in the near future. Buddhists would believe it is the karmic fate of the country and that is what I believe. But having said  that, many would also say, other countries like the G-7 are run by democratically elected heads and they are doing fine. So why isn't Tibet doing fine??


See the video of The Tibetan Govt Representative of Mundgod inciting the laypeople/and Drepung monks to attack the Shugden monks of Gaden:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCPQastwZW8





Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: thor on February 05, 2010, 12:31:37 AM
Shar Ganden and Ser pom have been working with the WSS and support what they have done, it has helped them immensly. It has given them the confidence to make a stand and know they have support from people around the world. Not everyone needs to make a loud noise in the street to be helping, but making a loud noise has helped.

Individual DS monks have been attacked but not as an entity. Is the support of the WSS the reason why Shar Ganden and Serpom have not been picketed or stoned? Why does WSS support make a difference.
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: zamzam24388 on February 05, 2010, 02:05:36 AM
Nothing wrong is saying you don't practice than to come out to say you DO practice and then do all the wrong things which does not go well with a dharma practitioner.  Be like the High Lamas, spread dharma by your actions.
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: crazycloud on February 05, 2010, 03:20:03 AM
Nothing wrong is saying you don't practice than to come out to say you DO practice and then do all the wrong things which does not go well with a dharma practitioner.  Be like the High Lamas, spread dharma by your actions.

Anyone urging someone else to "do like high Lama" should be able to take his own advice.

YOU do like high lama, give your advice to those who request it and are interested in it.
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: Ensapa on February 05, 2010, 09:34:46 AM
Mohani is right. The last time the monks 'protested' peacefully in Gaden in the 90's they were severely attacked by the lay ppl with stones, curses, sticks and breaking of windows. Many had to be taken to the clinic. As scary as it sounds, monks were attacked by the lay people surrounding Gaden. Gaden is in Mundgod Tibetan Settlement which at that time had around 14-16,000 Tibetans of which Gaden made up 3,300 of the population. Drepung nearby made up around 4,000 monks. So the remaining other half are lay ppl who were incited by the representative of Dalai Lama to attack the monks. I have close friends who were there.

There are 24 official Tibetan Settlements throughout India. Each settlement has an office where a Tibetan Govt official is chosen to 'run' each settlement and report back to the Tibetan Govt in exile in Dharamsala. Any orders, news or announcements from Dharamsala is disseminated through these representatives in each of the settlements. So The representative of Mundgod settlement encouraged the ppl to rally AGAINST THE MONKS WHO WERE PROTESTING AGAINST THE BAN PEACEABLY. Of course the Tibetan Govt in exile condoned the Mundgod representative's actions because they gave the order to do so.

So peaceful or any protests about taboo subjects such as the Tibetan Govt's corruption, inability to get autonomy for Tibet, biasness, Dorje Shugden IS NOT ALLOWED. The Tibetan Govt in Exile's definition of Democracy is very different to say the least. Actually everything is handpicked and chosen by the Dalai Lama himself. Even the abbots of each Sera, Drepung, Gaden, Gyuto, Gyurme, Namgyal, Nechung are all chosen directly by the Dalai Lama himself. All the abbots these days MUST FALL IN LINE WITH HIS POLICIES OR THEY WILL BE ASKED TO REMOVE THEMSELVES AS IN THE CASES OF THE PREVIOUS ABBOTS OF BOTH GADEN SHARTSE AND JANGTSE. Hence the 101st Gaden Tripa defected to Shar Gaden Monastery AFTER HIS 7 YEAR TERM AS TRIPA ENDED.

Protests against pervailing policies by Dalai Lama and Tibetan Govt are a ABSOLUTE NO-NO. Clear example is no one is allowed within Tibetan community to say 'When I grow up I wish to be the president, next Dalai Lama or Prime Minister' as that would be tantamount to treason. Hence, they have a huge dilemma. The Dalai Lama has been in power for the last 50+ years. No one is allowed to be groomed to be the next leader, because it is inconcievable another person can be or allowed to replace the Dalai Lama. Only his 'enlightened' rule can save Tibet. The irony is that Tibet has lost it's country and not getting it back in the near future. Buddhists would believe it is the karmic fate of the country and that is what I believe. But having said  that, many would also say, other countries like the G-7 are run by democratically elected heads and they are doing fine. So why isn't Tibet doing fine??



because tibet has lots of hard headed and stubborn tibetans. they have a tendency to twist words and misinterpret situations and any attempt to correct it would be faced with huge resistance and even hostility.

DL himself has said he no longer wants to lead the parliament, but knowing how the tibetans are.....

Remember how the kagyus misintepreted and grossly twisted Trijang Rinpoche's words as being anti kagyu when he merely said Gelug teachings are pure? thats how unbelivably twisted these tibetan people are. Sadly this influence has spread to the west, and kunga namdrol of e-sangha is a prominent example.
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: honeydakini on February 20, 2010, 07:39:40 PM
I think for many it would be considered quite a grave untruth to proclaim publically that they do not practice because the practice itself is a commitment they may have made to their lamas to uphold and practice for the rest of their lives. It may feel like you are lying or going against your word if you say that you "do not practice".

However, I do think that it's not as simple as just saying you practice or you don't. Of course, you need to consider what the results would be of saying that you practice or not - does it bring the benefit that you hope it will? Or create more damage? For some people, saying that they practice may implicate a lot of other people such as their own Dharma community/ sangha or even their Lamas who may not be openly practising. Perhaps you strike a middleway instead where you don't go around proclaiming you don't do it, but answer only if asked. And even then you can evade the question by not answering directly "no i don't practice" but you could say something in a roundabout way like "the dharma protector of our Dharma centre which I follow is XYZ" - which isn't to say that you DON'T ALSO practice DS! haha!


Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: thor on February 20, 2010, 08:22:39 PM
I think for many it would be considered quite a grave untruth to proclaim publically that they do not practice because the practice itself is a commitment they may have made to their lamas to uphold and practice for the rest of their lives. It may feel like you are lying or going against your word if you say that you "do not practice".

This has always concerned me.
1) Once someone has taken commitments and vows to uphold this practice, how can they abandon it without collecting heavy negative karma?
2) As for the monks who have sworn in to give up the practice of Dorje Shugden yet continue to practise in secret, they are breaking their sworn promise not to practice! More negative karma?
3) And those who do swear in and who do give up their sacred protector practice, how can you unswear your vows and commitments to your root lama by swearing to another protector?
This whole swearing in process has become a farcical affair that the monks are forced to endure.
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: Zhalmed Pawo on February 20, 2010, 08:39:11 PM
I have been wondering whats wrong with saying you don't practice
.....
thoughts?

Well, if one does the practice, and then says that one does not, or acts in a way that gives the impression of not practicing, then one has made a lie. One has made a big boo-boo, dharmawise. One has acted in non-conformity of the ten wholesome actions, or in other words, one has made one of the ten unwholesome actions. These two pairs of tens, happen to be the very core of Buddhist ethics. And progressively, after this basic level of Refuge-ethics, there comes the Pratimoksha, according to which lying or misleading is also unethical. And then there comes the Bodhisattv......... and so forth, but anyways, I'll guess you get the drift.

The question is not framed in a political sense, but in a karmic sense, or a Buddhist sense, for all of us Buddhist practitioners. Sure it would be easier to just lie about our practice, for then no politician would ever "spit on us", but then on the other hand, what is a practice worth if you have to lie about it. Could one say or claim or maintain that one is a practitioner of any form of Buddhism if one had to lie about one's practices, and thereby, through that very act of lying break the fundamental basic ethics of Buddhism?
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: thor on February 20, 2010, 09:54:24 PM
...Could one say or claim or maintain that one is a practitioner of any form of Buddhism if one had to lie about one's practices, and thereby, through that very act of lying break the fundamental basic ethics of Buddhism?

That's just my point. All the Sangha who are secretly practising after having sworn in are lying then - lying being defined not just by words alone but also by leading others to the wrong conclusion without actually speaking any untruths. And what of those lamas who are also practising in secret?
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: DharmaDefender on February 20, 2010, 10:06:29 PM
...Could one say or claim or maintain that one is a practitioner of any form of Buddhism if one had to lie about one's practices, and thereby, through that very act of lying break the fundamental basic ethics of Buddhism?

That's just my point. All the Sangha who are secretly practising after having sworn in are lying then - lying being defined not just by words alone but also by leading others to the wrong conclusion without actually speaking any untruths. And what of those lamas who are also practising in secret?

Well, what of lamas like HH 101st Gaden Tripa? Was it wrong that he stayed in a position supported by the Dalai Lama, whilst secretly practising Dorje Shugden all this while? Does his actions make him a hypocrite? Or did he do the right thing by remaining silent for a while? Is it better to practise in secret, avoid ostracism to come out at the right time, and use your practice as an inspiration to others?

If we say lamas who practise in secret are lying, then we cannot use their stories and examples as inspirations for our own practice.

I don't think lying is easy for a lot of them because (1) it's a conscious choice to contradict their vows (2) their love for Dorje Shugden is so great that it wouldn't be easy to lie about their practice. I think unveiling yourself as a practitioner is a matter of the right place, at the right time. Unfortunately for many of us, we're not in a position to judge said right place and time, and rely on our gurus for this guidance.
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: Zhalmed Pawo on February 20, 2010, 10:54:43 PM
...Could one say or claim or maintain that one is a practitioner of any form of Buddhism if one had to lie about one's practices, and thereby, through that very act of lying break the fundamental basic ethics of Buddhism?

That's just my point. All the Sangha who are secretly practising after having sworn in are lying then - lying being defined not just by words alone but also by leading others to the wrong conclusion without actually speaking any untruths. And what of those lamas who are also practising in secret?

Well, what of lamas like HH 101st Gaden Tripa? Was it wrong that he stayed in a position supported by the Dalai Lama, whilst secretly practising Dorje Shugden all this while? Does his actions make him a hypocrite? Or did he do the right thing by remaining silent for a while? Is it better to practise in secret, avoid ostracism to come out at the right time, and use your practice as an inspiration to others?

If we say lamas who practise in secret are lying, then we cannot use their stories and examples as inspirations for our own practice.

My view of Tripa is that he made a good political choice. And yet, he lied, either by words or acts, or by silence and inactivity. Whether he was a hypocrite depends on whether he actively said anything against his own practice. As to the question of what "practice style" is good or better, depends on what one's aims are. Tripa obviously did not aim at truthfullness. (And to those who like the idea of 'High Lamas' playing political games, I say that whatever is built on untruth, will not last, and even if it would last, it would not be worth a truth, or somethinglikethat.)

And as for being inspired... well, that depends on the person concerned. I peronally am not very inspired by liars, cowards or politicians.
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: AtmoAgathonKhirad on February 21, 2010, 07:46:52 PM
I think there is some confusion. I also was almost surprised, but only almost, when the DL did not help the monks in Burma, for anyone could see, that such a sudden start with demonstrations before loaded guns, will bring trouble. I wrote him therfore. But the message was only deleted. It is very dangeous, if the monks themselfs could not see the bloody happening to come. What kind of meditation do they live, not to see it? But even more should have the DL seen it. What kind of compassion is this not to tell to the monks to slow dawn a little bit with demonstartin before loaded guns. And anyway there would be profound solutions, but the DL did not share them. Certainly they are not shareable, so he should have "shared" them.
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: Geronimo on February 21, 2010, 10:13:14 PM
"The effect we have on others when we make them happy without motive and when their mind is happy because of us - THAT IS DHARMA. "
 
 
-extracted from If Not Now, When?

 H.E. Tsem Tulku Rinpoche
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: vajra power on February 22, 2010, 10:17:10 AM
I have been wondering whats wrong with saying you don't practice

1) its supposed to be a secret practice anyways
2) you save the people trying to enforce a ban from creating more negative karma
3) if people ever find out you are a practitioner hopefully your actions up till then show you to be a good person and shining example of the practice
4) if your not tibetan or in a monastery the ban doesn't affect you anyway
5) your protector is an enlightened being and will see your true motivation
6) you can share dharma without the politics

Is there anything wrong with this?
thoughts?
" If your not tibetan or in a monastery the ban doesn't affect you anyway"
wow! what a logic !! Have you ever given deep thought over this issue. It is not a question of whether this effects you personally but rather the very act of banning the practice. No body has right to ban this practice even if it is wrong- as they call it. Dharma & politic will always intermingle. Politician see dharma as tools to accomplish their goal and it becomes the duty of every follower to stand up for their believe and faith.
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: a friend on February 22, 2010, 10:15:50 PM
Zhalmed Pawo, sorry that when we are in agreement, at least me in agreement with your statements, which happens a lot, I don´t answer. So much activity around here as of late thanks to our friends the N...s.

But I needed to say something about the Ganden Trisur, former Ganden Tripa: he did do something. While being Ganden Tripa, in full command of his own power, he extended a certificate to TBR, the Trijang Buddhist Center, which is the Labdang and Dharma Center for Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche, declaring that the people there were perfectly and legitimately spreading the BuddhaDharma (this is by heart) and  the teachings of Ganden Mountain.

Now, if that is inactivity, then I wonder what activity is.

Because as we have repeated a thousand times more or less in this website, the prominent monks that you can see in the demo´s videos of 2008 are TBR monks, and this is not a secret, most everybody knows this.

Now this is something that is there, for history, for everybody to know for ever and ever: that the Ganden Tripa gave his seal of approval to Trijang Buddhist Center.

Only for this it was worthwhile that he stayed as Ganden Tripa for so long and in silence. What he did is monumental, and we should all be grateful for his intelligence and faithfulness.

In view of this, I don´t think it´s fair to proclaim that he waited until the end of his tenure occupying the throne of Ganden to express his views. Both in the East and in the West actions are worth a thousand words, and his action was a proclamation of this own faith and practice.
____________________________________________________________________________

In a general way I think that we should respect those Lamas that "stayed" without uttering one word for encouraging people to follow the ban, or against our Protector. They are numerous, and I for one do not have the capacity for judging them, except for saying: they might´ve had a good reason.

About those actively promoting the ban or publicly berating our practice, our Deity and so forth, I don´t wish to talk, I'm happy that I'm not their judge, I just am so sorry for them.  
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: Zhalmed Pawo on February 24, 2010, 02:32:15 PM
Hello a friend. Yes indeed, the Tripa did do that. While it is little, it still is something, so you are correct: The Tripa did not merely sit silent, but actually did something positive about the whole thing. Thank you for reminding me.

I have thought a bit more about this issue of "silent Lamas", and here are some of my thoughts - not conclusions, but just thoughts:

Generally most Buddhist Teachers are purely reactive. For instance, they do not teach unless asked to teach. In a way, it is the Buddhist Way to sit in silence, and not go teaching or running helping others unless the teachings or the help is requested. To do otherwise is seen as proselytizing. This means, that Buddhist authorities are not proactive, they merely react. The Buddhist style is reactive. Therefore most Lamas, no matter what their view about some issue is, remain in silence.

However, the DL did become proactive over this one branch of practice, called DS. He was not content in merely answering questions presented to him over the practice (if there ever even was those questions), but became proactive by 'showeling his opinions' over others. He broke the traditional mold of being reactive by becoming proactive. He became a prozelytizer, although a negative one; he did not speak for a Dharma-teaching, but against a Dharma-teaching. And he spoke what he spoke without anyone requestioning it. So the main point is, that he became proactive, not merely responding. He has even stated this himself. He has said that he feels it is his responsibility to warn others, and so forth. Instead of merely expressing his opinion when asked, he took the role of "truth-yeller", proclaiming his vision, whether it was wanted or requested.

But as this proactive stance of the DL was seen by many to be negative in content, it compelled some to act, but act only as a reactionist. Therefore the actions taken, for instance, by GKG, are reactive, not proactive. They arose only because the wrong-conceived proactivity of the DL; they arose as a mere reaction. So although many maintain the view that the "1996 protests" by NKT were non-Buddhist in spirit, they nevertheless were more Buddhist that the ban and public condemnations by the DL, because they were reactive in nature. (Do note, that I'm now not taking into the account whether the view, or the content, is correct - I'm only commenting on the action. Whether the DS is or is not a Buddha or a demon has nothing to do with what I'm discussing here.) The same goes to the more recent WSS-protests. Neither of the 'protests waves' were made to promote any Buddhist Deity, view, or teaching, but they were made merely as a reaction to ill-adviced proactivity done by the DL. The WSS is not promoting anything positive, but only reacting to something negative, in a true Buddhist reactive spirit. WSS is not proselytizing.

If what I have written above is true, there might be some implications:

- Most of the Lamas will be silent in the future also, unless specifically asked and requested. The initiative must come from outside. From us.

- To promote DS is wrong, because it would be proselytizising. It is enough for us all to oppose the "negative-content proselytization" of the DL. To do more, is bad form. We can of course openly tell that this is our practice and present it's history, benefits, and so forth, but if we step further, and start to think, or even worse proclaim, that DS will be the next global Über-Buddha, we have went too far (and in fact would be just like those mistaken ones who say that the DL is "the Leader of All Buddhists of this Earth" andwhatever.)



So all in all, now I in a sense understand why many Lamas remain silent: They just weren't asked to speak. 8) But then, the question still emains: Why didn't they react?
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: honeydakini on February 24, 2010, 04:06:16 PM
I think that if we debate why the Lamas do or do not react, or why they react / act in the way that they do, we will be here forever and get none the closer to understanding or getting the truth.

There are many things that the Lamas do which may be beyond our understanding at this time. I believe that the lamas take on different methods and "roles" like a large symphony that will ultimately help all different mind sets, dispositions and people around the world.

I also believe that for many of these highly attained Lamas, it is not so much what they do or do not do, but their motivation behind it or their aspirations, which are far beyond what we can probably conceive at our lower levels of practice, learning and realisation. For some, "lying" about a practice is not so much about the actual act of "lying" but about what the results may bring in the long term. For some, speaking out and saying outright that they are doing the practice will bring more benefit; for some lamas, it may be more detrimental at that time.

I think that while it's good we discuss and look at what other lamas are doing or saying - to gain a fuller understanding of different points of views and stances - I think we must be careful not to fall into a trap of saying "why don't the lamas do this?" or "why don't they do that?" or "they should do this instead of that". I'm not saying that anyone is doing that here as i understand everyone is just trying to get a better understanding, but it's just something we should be aware of - after all, we aren't yet at a level to be questioning in a way that assumes we know better than the lamas.

my own teachers have always advised me that different lamas will take on different facets - much like the different emanations of the buddhas, which assume peaceful, wrathful, controlling methods etc. so what may seem like "lying" from one Lama may not be to another lama... and the results that arise from both lamas doing the same action could be totally different.
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: WisdomBeing on February 24, 2010, 04:15:05 PM
I think it's called crazy wisdom or mahasiddha actions. I have long since learned not to question these holy Lamas because it usually does make sense in the end! I've travelled with various Rinpoches and on a superficial level, they drive the lay people nuts because they don't keep to timetables or schedules and a travelling tour is almost ALL about keeping to the schedule. It's really quite entertaining if we don't get sucked into it. Just let go and follow the leader!

Likewise, whatever a monk or Lama does - i believe that if we don't understand it, we shouldn't make judgement on it because either way you win. If the monk is right, you can thank Buddha you didn't wrongly condemn him. If the monk is wrong, you still shouldn't criticise the sangha, especially as we have not been keeping the same number of vows as the monk. So either way, the best is to just shut up and drive!
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: Lineageholder on February 24, 2010, 04:27:59 PM
I think it's called crazy wisdom or mahasiddha actions.

So that means we can excuse any bad behaviour or negative actions?  Perhaps the Dalai Lama's persecution of Dorje Shugden practitioners is just crazy wisdom?  'Dont criticise the Master, he's just displaying his crazy wisdom aspect' - I'm sorry, but that's not good enough in the Kali Yurga.  In this age, people act crazy anyway.  How can you tell the difference between someone who is crazy and someone who is realized and acts crazy?  From the point of view of our experience, we can't, so if a Guru is really kind, they will display exemplary disciplined conduct so that we can tell the difference.  The time of' 'Tilopas and Naropas' is past: society will not accept this crazy behaviour and it doesn't encourage faith.  Faith is the important thing.  Faith is hard enough to develop these days without the Guru's behaviour making it even harder, imho.
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: Zhalmed Pawo on February 24, 2010, 07:06:48 PM
Dear honeydakini and WisdomBeing: It seems, that you believe in the "Great Plan", "the utter godliness of the title-holders", and the "personal unworthiness of the practitioner". The last mentioned person was you, you mind.

That kind of attitude might be helpful in Hinduism or Christianism, but in Buddhism it merely prevents any progress or growth. It makes the Path impossible.

To put this short: If you think that you cannot make moral judgements, you are beyond help. A mere animal slave waiting for the Master's call.

If you are a Buddhist, you'll agree...
...yes?

Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: dsnowlion on February 24, 2010, 10:26:16 PM
I think it's called crazy wisdom or mahasiddha actions.

So that means we can excuse any bad behaviour or negative actions?  Perhaps the Dalai Lama's persecution of Dorje Shugden practitioners is just crazy wisdom?  'Dont criticise the Master, he's just displaying his crazy wisdom aspect' - I'm sorry, but that's not good enough in the Kali Yurga.  In this age, people act crazy anyway.  How can you tell the difference between someone who is crazy and someone who is realized and acts crazy?  From the point of view of our experience, we can't, so if a Guru is really kind, they will display exemplary disciplined conduct so that we can tell the difference.  The time of' 'Tilopas and Naropas' is past: society will not accept this crazy behaviour and it doesn't encourage faith.  Faith is the important thing.  Faith is hard enough to develop these days without the Guru's behaviour making it even harder, imho.

It is definitely not excuse for any man to act badly. But a Thai Dharma practitioner once told me, if a man is in robes, so long as the man wears the robe representing the Buddha, we as lay people cannot simply say negative things or judge for the -ve karma is the same as criticizing a Buddha. Whether the monk is fake, real or not, it is for his karma to judge him not us. We can act on our decide to decide to listen to that monk or leave and ignore. But because we are lay people it is very wrong for us to judge a monk. Why? For 1. we don't hold monk vows, 2. we are not ordained 3. we don not know for sure the monks motivation and only judging from an outer appearance and what we project a monk should be. What more a Lama/Teacher. If we start judging our Gurus, start to see fault in our Gurus, slowly we might even see fault in the Buddhas too. Actually isn't all we perceive of how someone should behave are just mere projections of what we think should and should not be?

I think so long as the result does not hurt anyone, create more suffering, unhappy minds like what Lhakpa has said in a beautiful quote, that is most important to ask ourselves. Why should we be so busy looking a lamas, shouldn't we be looking within ourselves first? 

I think Questioning is fine and debating for the motivation to understand and clear away doubts if great. But not to purposely just stir up argument for argument sake, and to see who is right or wrong as that would only serve our pride and ego. The whole system or questioning and debate came from Tibetan Buddhism anyway. It is there as training to sharpen our minds in undersatnding of the Dharma in order to not have blind faith but true conviction through logic. That is what I've learn.

WisdomBeing you are very fortunate to be so close to your Guru and to be able to even experience that kind of crazy training. I too have similar experience. But I am afraid not many people can share our experience cos maybe some of their Guru's are far away or they don't see their Gurus very often let alone spend "time" with their Gurus at such close proximity. Hence some may not relate to yours and my experience. 

Never the less, I personally do not think Gaden Trisur lied, even if he did it wouldn't be negative. It would be like the Buddha who lied to hunter on where the deer went.

cheers!   

Judging our teachers/lamas ought to stop after we have decided to take refuge with the particular lama. Once a Guru - Student relationship is created we start practicing Guru Devotion with the Nine Attitudes who are more extraordinary than all the Buddhas. 
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: a friend on February 25, 2010, 02:07:44 AM
Dear Zhalmed Pawo:
Thank you for your answer. It´s an interesting theory the "proactive" and "reactive" pattern you have found. I know that no category ever encompasses what my Gurus were, so I agree with the restrictive "mostly" or "for the most part" that you use.
I just with to comment on a couple of your conclusions.

Quote
Most of the Lamas will be silent in the future also, unless specifically asked and requested. The initiative must come from outside. From us.

I suspect this can be true, at least in the personal level. If you don´t ask, they won´t tell you. I never tried requesting them to do this or that, like "please go public" or some such. But as I said in another post, I did ask a Lama of our lineage (actually 2 Lamas of our lineage) about the matter of speaking about the deeds of the Dalai Lama concerning the ban, and both told me that it was correct to tell others that what the DL did was wrong. I never asked them why they were not publicly doing this or that, because both are openly keeping with their Protector´s practice so it never came to mind to ask them, "why you don´t go to demonstrations" or "why don´t you publish letters" ... I´m very happy with their mere existence among us, they know what they are doing, that is for sure.

Quote
- To promote DS is wrong, because it would be proselytizising. It is enough for us all to oppose the "negative-content proselytization" of the DL. To do more, is bad form. We can of course openly tell that this is our practice and present it's history, benefits, and so forth, but if we step further, and start to think, or even worse proclaim, that DS will be the next global Über-Buddha, we have went too far (and in fact would be just like those mistaken ones who say that the DL is "the Leader of All Buddhists of this Earth" andwhatever.)

In a general way I agree with you. I just don´t understand how you can promote a tantric deity. When you know the requisites for being a recipient of the Tantra knowledge then this idea of promoting our holy Protector seems to me entirely alien to our system´s ways and procedures. On the other hand, I wouldn´t dare say that it is "wrong" in any absolute way. I can imagine that some Teacher could legitimately do this, given some circomstances.  

Quote
So all in all, now I in a sense understand why many Lamas remain silent: They just weren't asked to speak.  But then, the question still emains: Why didn't they react?

I think there might be many different reasons according to the person. I´m not prone to see any "grand plan", and my own Gurus never did anything that would demand interpretation as "a grand mysterious plan" to be understood, happy me. Now, with the small knowledge I have of different people in the Tibetan system, I think there might be a number of reasons just personal, that I for one would not be able to judge and don´t wish to judge.
Some of them might just react as Kadampas ... they just do not defend themselves. So if the Protector issue is "their" thing, then they will remain silent and yield whatever victory for the world to see to the other party. Others might be just disliking the manners. We don´t realize how different manners there are among our nations and there are some things among the ones "our side" has been doing that are just "bad manners" for some people. Others might be defending the minds of some of their disciples, starryeyed with the Dalai Lama. Others might be defending the feelings of their fellow Tibetans, who see the Dalai Lama as the icon of their nation. And so on and so forth. There is no need to see in the Lamas' actions gigantic motivations. They are human too. So some might have gigantic motivations, others, more personal ones. That´s fine with me.
I repeat: I´m just talking about the Lamas who did not condemn the Dalai Lama but who did not approve of the ban nor encouraged people to follow it. I think they are quite numerous. I´m not talking about those who praise the Dalai Lama for the ban and advice people to follow the Dalai Lama´s advice.  These, I don´t even want to think about them, except for praying for them as I do for every mother sentient being.
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: DharmaDefender on February 25, 2010, 11:18:48 AM
Quote
My view of Tripa is that he made a good political choice. And yet, he lied, either by words or acts, or by silence and inactivity. Whether he was a hypocrite depends on whether he actively said anything against his own practice. As to the question of what "practice style" is good or better, depends on what one's aims are. Tripa obviously did not aim at truthfullness. (And to those who like the idea of 'High Lamas' playing political games, I say that whatever is built on untruth, will not last, and even if it would last, it would not be worth a truth, or somethinglikethat.)

And as for being inspired... well, that depends on the person concerned. I peronally am not very inspired by liars, cowards or politicians.

You have a point ZP but some people feel it is better to live to fight another day, especially when it is more strategic to fight another day for a cause you believe in.

As a friend has pointed out, he didn't stay silent. In any case, I don't think it was a political choice for the Gaden Trisur because if it were, why not continue to remain the way he always was, to continue reaping the supposed benefits of being in the Dalai Lama and/or TGIE's administration's favour? We all know the TGIE and the anti-DS troop make life very difficult for DS practitioners in India...case in point Dagom Rinpoche, so why choose that kind of difficult living circumstances?

Quote
Quote
- To promote DS is wrong, because it would be proselytizising. It is enough for us all to oppose the "negative-content proselytization" of the DL. To do more, is bad form. We can of course openly tell that this is our practice and present it's history, benefits, and so forth, but if we step further, and start to think, or even worse proclaim, that DS will be the next global Über-Buddha, we have went too far (and in fact would be just like those mistaken ones who say that the DL is "the Leader of All Buddhists of this Earth" andwhatever.)

In a general way I agree with you. I just don´t understand how you can promote a tantric deity. When you know the requisites for being a recipient of the Tantra knowledge then this idea of promoting our holy Protector seems to me entirely alien to our system´s ways and procedures. On the other hand, I wouldn´t dare say that it is "wrong" in any absolute way. I can imagine that some Teacher could legitimately do this, given some circomstances.

So is the best way of opposing "negative-content proselytization" by the Dalai Lama, is by engaging in it ourselves? I don't think anyone's advocating that DS is the next Super Buddha - maybe promoting is not the right word, but educating. a friend's got it right - it's not absolutely wrong to promote practices because if it were, then websites like this would/should not exist.

I don't quite agree that promoting tantric deities is a bad idea, because if someone doesn't know about them, how does one create a connection to receive the practice in the future? I know of a few instances whereby people have read about Vajrayogini et al. online and found they have a deep connection with the deities in question, and it was all because someone engaged in bad form (hehe) and promoted them. Promoting Vajrayogini, for example, so people can see her holy form, will help them to create merits, will it not?
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: a friend on February 25, 2010, 10:52:06 PM


I´ve heard that the more you open up the secret Mantra the quicker it degenerates, practitioners won´t get results. I would be very careful with the use of images of our Venerable Mother. Anyway, the times already are degenerated so ... do as your good heart and your own Lama advice.

 
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: Lineageholder on February 26, 2010, 01:31:45 AM
If we start judging our Gurus, start to see fault in our Gurus, slowly we might even see fault in the Buddhas too. Actually isn't all we perceive of how someone should behave are just mere projections of what we think should and should not be?

Judging our teachers/lamas ought to stop after we have decided to take refuge with the particular lama. Once a Guru - Student relationship is created we start practicing Guru Devotion with the Nine Attitudes who are more extraordinary than all the Buddhas. 

The Dalai Lama is not my Guru, he's a conman politician.  My Guru is an extraordinary being who wouldn't cause a schism in the Sangha.
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: dsnowlion on February 26, 2010, 07:32:14 AM


I´ve heard that the more you open up the secret Mantra the quicker it degenerates, practitioners won´t get results. I would be very careful with the use of images of our Venerable Mother. Anyway, the times already are degenerated so ... do as your good heart and your own Lama advice.

 

Oh I've heard the opposite. Although I am no where near being a tantrika, but I've heard the opposite ... the more degenerate we become, the more the rise of desire on this planet, the stronger and more powerful the practice of Vajrayogini becomes. The more appropriate it is for us to practice. But I do agree with you a friend, that we cannot just simple show it to any tom, dick or harry without explanation and we must use our own discretion/wisdom to see if the person/friend can even except seeing such a sacred holy image, so as to not create a negative reaction in that new person's mind. So of course the best person to intorduce Vajrayogini is our Guru. However, with our Guru's permission of course, we can still plant seeds in people's minds (giving people pictures/images/statues/pendants) so that they create the affinity/connection with Mother Vajrayogini, so that in future they can meet a guru who will give them the practice, can we not?

I've got a statue of vajrayogini on my altar, it's just to create the causes that hopefully one day can be qualified to receive her practice :)
Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: a friend on February 26, 2010, 02:14:36 PM


Dear Dsnowlion,

I think I didn´t express myself well. I´ve heard that the more you open up the Secret Mantra the more ineffectual it becomes, practitioners don´t ripe results as they would´ve if the secret teachings had stayed secret. This means: if you are a Tantric practitioner, you don´t talk about Tantra. It´s secret. Even being very cautious you can have a downfall, a slip of the tongue, so easily, and the breaking of Tantric vows should not be taken lightly.
What you are saying is: the more degenerated the times, the more Tantra becomes useful. Of course, you are right, it becomes very useful for those who have received the proper empowerments with the proper requirements and at least try to keep their vows.
If you are not a Tantric practitioner you don't have those vows to break but if I were you, out of respect for the highest teachings, I would refrain from talking about it, I would refrain from promoting Tantric Deities, particularly from the Anuttarayogatantra ... unless your Lama tells you otherwise, that is.

Forgive my ignorance that I cannot explain more. This is not out of secrecy, it´s out of, yes, ignorance.
But go for the sure path: in a general way, when it comes to sensitive matters, ask your Lama first.

Title: Re: Whats wrong with saying you don't practice?
Post by: Gabby Potter on April 26, 2015, 04:28:50 PM
I don't find anything wrong about it, but I don't understand why people are making a big fuss about this. We weren't supposed to reveal our practise to the world, and for what? We didn't practise Dorje Shugden to 'show' the world that we are doing His practise, it's a personal practise.