Is This Productive Or Counter-productive To The Shugden Cause?

[vajratruth]

I came across this article by Jamyang Nornu, a world renowned Tibetan writer, and in most parts, a critic of the the CTA/HHDL and their suppression of religious freedom. That an activist who would have been an ally in the fight for the freedom of Shugdenpas to practice their belief is now criticising the way the Dalai Lama was confronted by the nun, does warrant some examination. Principally because such news and publicity may very well play into the hands of those who oppose Dorje Shugden. As it is Shugden practitioners are portrayed as being a militant cult funded by the Chinese and such disinformation has served to sway sentiments against Dorje Shugden.

Personally I have been extremely vexed and disappointed at the way HHDL has distorted the truth about a Buddha and therefore I fully understand the pent up sorrow and frustrations of Shugden worshippers that have driven them to the point where there seems to be no choice but to 'oppose' the Dalai Lama head-on in so far as the Shugden issue is concerned. And of course, the placards they carry do state the truth. The question is, does that help the Shugden cause? It is not a question of whether to protest the ban or not but how to do so without being entrapped into strengthening the image of the Dalai Lama instead.

We know for a fact the Dalai Lama is loved the world over, and many have complete albeit blind faith in His Holiness. And so, when the Dalai Lama is 'attacked' thus, do sentiments against Shugden worshippers become galvanised? Is there a case to revise the Shugden Cause so that it is as much a propagation of the truth of who this benevolent deity is, as well as a counter measure against HHDL and CTA's slick propaganda?

Would placards that say for instance "Long Life The Dalai Lama, Please Give Us Religious Freedom" work better than "Stop Lying - Give Us Religious Freedom"? For certain the policy of this site has always been to maintain respect for the Dalai Lama per Trijang Rinpoche's own exhortation but I guess a lot of lives have been destroyed by the ban.

Your thoughts?

P.S: At the same time it is interesting to note an irony. On the one hand HHDL as recent as last month has hinted that Shugden people are a danger to his life and yet we see how slack the Dalai Lama's own security detail is. Perhaps HHDL/CTA know that there is absolutely nothing to fear from Shugden worshippers at all.



Is the Dalai Lama safe? - by Jamyang Norbu
Phayul[Sunday, March 02, 2014 01:31]
By Jamyang Norbu

I came across this YouTube video yesterday morning that left me depressed and angry for the rest of the day. An inji nun, a Shugden follower, confronts His Holiness in a hotel lobby in San Francisco and keeps up a litany of insulting comments: “Stop lying Dalai Lama”, “Religious freedom for everyone”, “Stop lying”, “Dalai Lama you must stop lying.” and so on. His Holiness attempts to argue with her but she keeps up her slogans till His Holiness finally leaves. The video is just 38 seconds but it feels much longer, painfully longer.

About ten years ago I wrote a two essays on Tibetan superstitions and oracle cults where I touched on the Shugden controversy.

An excerpt:

Of course, people must be allowed their beliefs no matter how ridiculous or wrong we may perceive them. I believe people have the right to worship Shugden or any other deity they want, while the Dalai Lama as a spiritual leader certainly has the right to object to this on theological grounds and ask people to refrain from such practices. But that is not the problem. The trouble is that the Tibetan government has been inducted to implement the Dalai Lama’s proscription of Shugden worship. The Tibetan government claims it has not issued any orders or appeals to people to harass or ?ght Shugden worshippers. Yet it has produced and distributed literature and videos demonizing Shugden worshippers.

But this latest confrontation with His Holiness by Shugden followers is completely unacceptable. The whole thing (camera and all) appears to have been a deliberate set-up to embarrass His Holiness. The nun didn’t even try to have a discussion with His Holiness. She just repeated slogans. The same slogans that other Western Shugden followers outside the hotel were chanting and which they had printed on their placards and banners.

Far be it for me to say that you can’t disagree with His Holiness. I have been an open and vociferous critic of the Dalai Lama on the issue of Tibetan independence for a few decades now, but I have always made sure that nothing I wrote could be used as ammunition against him or the cause. I have also consistently drawn the line at being deliberately disrespectful, and attempting to humiliate His Holiness publicly as happened at San Francisco goes way beyond that line. The behavior of the Western Shugden followers, at the very least, reveals an insensitivity to the hopes and dreams of those Tibetans suffering under Chinese rule who yearn for the day when the Dalai Lama will return to an independent homeland.
But on reflection I could not sustain my anger at the Western Shugden followers, who are, after all, not Tibetans and don’t share our values, and who at least came out openly (and peacefully) to express their grievances. But where on earth were our very own ministers and officials who always somehow manage to be alongside his Holiness in all his travels (and in every accompanying photograph and video). Where were they? Why didn’t one or two of them at least stand before the nun and tell her to leave, or better yet hustle her out gently. I remember seeing a video of a previous such incident where a Tibetan official, Kalon Tashi Wangdi, came out before a large crowd of Shugden protesters and talked calmly to them providing a kind of barrier between them and His Holiness. Why didn’t at least one official come between His Holiness and this one small nun who seemed rather nervous and scared herself.

Or more to the point, what security arrangements were there in place to ensure His Holiness’s safety? We all know that over the last decade Western Shugden supporters have picketed His Holiness’s talks and appearances in the West. It was no secret that this time around they would do the same on his California visit. So why weren’t adequate precautions taken. I have written on a number of occasions that Dharamshala should be extremely careful in vetting visitors to the Dalai Lama, not only to ensure His Holiness’s physical safety but also to ensure that nothing untoward, unseemly or embarrassing could happen. One speculation I picked up over the exile grapevine was that the nun managed to get access to His Holiness because she was an inji, a Westerner, it being a given that Tibetans have a harder time getting access His Holiness than a Westerner does.

These days Chinese visitors from the PRC are reportedly coming in droves to Dharamshala and seem to have absolutely no difficulty in gaining admittance to His Holiness. Knowing how the system operates in China, I do not think it would be an exaggeration to say that a considerable percentage of these visitors will have some connection to Chinese intelligence and security agencies.

So in the specific instance of San Francisco, why the oversight, the negligence? I have been given to understand there has been a major power struggle in the Tibetan political world over control and management of the Dalai Lama’s visits abroad, especially those to the United States. Hence it appears that the energy and acumen of our concerned officials were focused more on this turf battle and less on security preparations for His Holiness’s trip.

As annoyed as most Tibetan have been with the slogan-chanting nun and the other Western Shugden followers, it would be for the best if we forget all about them. In fact I think it might be advisable for Dharamshala to reach some kind of minimal understanding with Shugden followers regarding their behavior during His Holiness’s visits to the West, even if for the moment we are unable to resolve the fundamental aspects of the schism. Otherwise I can quite easily see things getting out of hand, and angry exile-Tibetans battling it out with Shugden followers on the streets of New York or London, doing irreparable damage to our cause and to His Holiness’s international reputation.

And we should never forget that we have a far more frightening and sinister enemy poised to do the ultimate harm to His Holiness life and legacy. This enemy has murdered hundreds of lamas, slaughtered many thousands of Buddhist monks, and “disappeared” the child Panchen Lama; and as I mentioned earlier, it has been sending a stream of its agents to our exile-capital for purposes that are at the very least, disquieting. How seriously prepared are we to deal with that?

It doesn’t bear thinking.

The author is a Tibetan independence activist and writer, currently living in the United States. He is one of the founding members of the Tibetan Youth Congress, the largest pro - independence group of the Tibetan Diaspora.

The views expressed in this piece are that of the author and the publication of the piece on this website does not necessarily reflect their endorsement by the website.
 

[WisdomBeing]

There is no such thing as bad publicity and even though the placard waving sangha may seem in bad taste to certain groups of people, they did achieve a smattering of publicity for a very deserving and much neglected cause - the Dorje Shugden ban. I don't believe any sangha member desires to malign the Dalai Lama, however, facts need to be stated. And controversial phrases are far more attractive to the media. "Stop lying Dalai Lama" is definitely punch and draws attention! Thus there was quite a lot of coverage in the western media of the protests at the Dalai Lama's US tour.

Would these protests reduce the stature of the Dalai Lama? I look at it this way. The Dalai Lama created this theatre. He knows each act and its players. We are approaching the climax of this decades long dance. The Dalai Lama is the Dalai Lama. Those who believe he is a Buddha will continue to believe so and those who don't won't. Of course there will be some in the middle of the bell curve who may begin to doubt. Is the doubt caused by the protestors or the Dalai Lama himself? Of course it is by the Dalai Lama - whose actions created the doubt. The protestors merely highlighted it. Therefore, do you blame the messenger or the perpetrator?

Dorje Shugden practitioners are portrayed as militant murderers but I don't see any violence, except for the one tragic incident on February 4, 1997, when the principal of the Buddhist School of Dialectics, Geshe Lobsang Gyatso was murdered in Dharmasala, along with two of his students. This was blamed on Dorje Shugden practitioners although the murderers were not caught and no conclusive proof was found. Although this incident is terrible, it in no way reflects on all Dorje Shugden practitioners and I am sure that Dorje Shugden practitioners condemn this incident as all Buddhists would.

In fact there is more violence against Dorje Shugden practitioners - physical and psychological, and openly so - because it is endorsed by the CTA and the Dalai Lama. I have not come across any reports about attacks on Dorje Shugden practitioners because of the protests against the Dalai lama though. Has anyone?

With regard to Jamyang Norbu's question about security for the Dalai Lama, i believe that the Chinese secret service are so skilled that if they should wish to kill a public figure, it would be done seamlessly and it would seem like an accident or natural death. With the plethora of public appearances by the Dalai Lama, he is literally a sitting duck. The Chinese would not assassinate him purely because to do so would make him a martyr. So i do believe he is pretty safe. Unlike HH Trijang Rinpoche of course, who has a death sentence on his head because of the Dalai Lama and the CTA's tacit endorsement of violence against Dorje Shugden practitioners.

It is true though that the Dalai Lama should have better security advisers - so that he is better protected - against bad publicity at the least so that he is not confronted by another soft-spoken nun and publicly reveal himself to be not as in control of his emotions as people think. Or is that yet another illusion?

[Lineageholder]

Well said Kate, very good points. However people regard the Dalai Lama will always be the result of his actions. If he had not harmed Je Tsongkhapa's tradition with lies there would be no need to call him a liar and a hypocrite. Do not shoot the messenger of truth! Also it is his karma that people are not prepared to accept this harm because they cherish the Buddhadharma and are prepared to stand up and challenge the Dalai Lama's actions.

[psylotripitaka]

If more emphasis is put on protesting Human Rights Abuse, people will be forced to face the undeniable Truth.

The religious slant of the protests functions, but as I've shared elsewhere, I do not feel it is as effective in getting the needed attention as showing the human rights abuse would do.

Either way though, people are starting to take notice. The emphasis on human rights abuse would tip the balance so people would be more inclined to investigate and possibly take action.

As for security precautions to protect the DL, from what? Someone talking peacefully to him urging him to stop abusing people!

I applaud the practitioners here who maintain a strong stance of Pure View, much like Pema Chodron, but this does not alter the fact that the DL is in human form in human society and needs to face the consequences of his criminal behavior.

And btw, the video of the nun speaking calmly to the DL, that is only a small portion of the footage. The DL actually returns back to her several times to say the same ridiculous shit. His "body guards" didn't stop him. Why were the protesters able to be so close to him? Because Dorje Shugden has his ways!

[DharmaSpace]

The feeling I get from the protest is that it is more organised and the people are determined to let the world see that this ban goes against everything Buddhism and Dalai Lama has spoken about. I like the way the nun asked her question.

The question on my mind is that when you have written letters, pleaded with the Dalai Lama for dialogue and none of that works, why not demonstrations? Peaceful demonstrations have won the blacks in America their place in American history and their rightful place. If the Dorje Shugden are blood thirsty as we have been portrayed, the nun moving so close to the Dalai Lama that was the 'perfect' opportunity to solidify the perception to the world that the Dorje Shugden people are just out for blood and carnage.

If peaceful persuasion does not work, then it has to go down to peaceful actions and in the modern West, there is nothing much we cannot do as long as it does not harm or break laws. So demonstrate away WSS and other supporters make yourselves heard.

[lotus1]

For me, the protest is done in a very peaceful manner. Therefore, what’s wrong with it for people to voice out their opinion in a peaceful manner? From the video, the nun just stood aside stating her view and opinion and do not cause any harm to anyone. Why would it endanger to HH Dalai Lama? Besides, I noticed there are body guard besides HH Dalai Lama too. This clearly showed that the nun are well behaving herself rather than will cause any danger to HH Dalai Lama.
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/dalai-lama-angrily-replies-back-a-peaceful-nun/

Frankly, I also do not agreed that Jamyang Nornu thinking that the Dorje Shugden protester maybe from China. It is causing political sensitivity among the CTAs. Please just look at the fact to give a fair treatment to the Dorje Shugden practitioners. Please give them religious freedom and do not harm them anymore!

[dondrup]

keeps up a litany of insulting comments: “Stop lying Dalai Lama”, “Religious freedom for everyone”, “Stop lying”, “Dalai Lama you must stop lying.”

Insulting? HH Dalai Lama's relentless ban is a bigger if not the greatest insult to Dorje Shugden, an emanation of Buddha Manjushri! The ban is an insult to the whole Gelug Lineage and all the lineage lamas including HH Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche, the tutor to HHDL. What an embarrassment to the World!
 

But this latest confrontation with His Holiness by Shugden followers is completely unacceptable. The whole thing (camera and all) appears to have been a deliberate set-up to embarrass His Holiness. The nun didn’t even try to have a discussion with His Holiness. She just repeated slogans. The same slogans that other Western Shugden followers outside the hotel were chanting and which they had printed on their placards and banners.

How would you propose to have a discussion with HHDL? For HHDL/ CTA, there is no room for a dialogue with Dorje Shugden Followers!

No one wants to embarrass HHDL! HHDL is Buddha Chenrezig, all the more we must show respect and veneration. The nun has not done anything disrespectful. She is merely stressing the points in the hope that HHDL will lift the ban.

Don't you think HHDL had embarrassed Himself through his own hypocrisy and ban on Dorje Shugden?
How could HHDL preach love, peace, harmony and compassion when He had discriminated against Dorje Shugden followers? Where are the equanimity and love towards all sentient beings? Dorje Shugden followers are your family members. They are also Gelugpas!  Why had HHDL said all his gurus and the Gelug Lineage lamas were completely wrong about Dorje Shugden? 

The behavior of the Western Shugden followers, at the very least, reveals an insensitivity to the hopes and dreams of those Tibetans suffering under Chinese rule who yearn for the day when the Dalai Lama will return to an independent homeland. But on reflection I could not sustain my anger at the Western Shugden followers, who are, after all, not Tibetans and don’t share our values, and who at least came out openly (and peacefully) to express their grievances.

ISC is a community of all Dorje Shugden followers which include Tibetans in exile that were persecuted by the ban on Dorje Shugden. The demonstrations by ISC is not about the independence of Tibet but the fundamental religious freedom of Dorje Shugden followers! Instead of criticizing ISC for insensitivity (which there was none anyway) towards the Tibetans under the Chinese rule, ISC should be commended for speaking out against HHDL and taken steps to lift the ban.

Had the ban not being initiated in the outset, there wouldn't have been the disharmony and schism among the Tibetans in exile.  HHDL and CTA would have been able to focus their entire energy on accomplishing the independence of Tibet. CTA had not  been doing enough for the welfare of the Tibetans in exile let alone the independence of Tibet!
 

Or more to the point, what security arrangements were there in place to ensure His Holiness’s safety?

Good question! Did CTA really care about HHDL's security? USA is a lawful country that respect the human rights of its citizens and others. Do you think the American authorities would have permitted the peaceful demonstrations by the ISC against  HHDL who is a very distinguished guest of the country?

I have been given to understand there has been a major power struggle in the Tibetan political world over control and management of the Dalai Lama’s visits abroad, especially those to the United States. Hence it appears that the energy and acumen of our concerned officials were focused more on this turf battle and less on security preparations for His Holiness’s trip.

Notice how CTA chose to focus on politics and power than security of HHDL!
 

And we should never forget that we have a far more frightening and sinister enemy poised to do the ultimate harm to His Holiness life and legacy.

If HHDL is an emanation of Chenrezig, how could ordinary beings, the so-called enemy harm Him?

It is the failure on the part of those serving and protecting HHDL that is the cause of concern. Does CTA care?

It has been decades since the ban was imposed. I believe what needs to be done to lift the ban, ISC would have already thought of. For example the slogans used on the placards in the recent protests in USA would have been carefully planned for and approved for use. Yes, i fully agreed that the measures taken to lift the ban should not cause harm whatsoever to HHDL. However, it is inevitable in any of the ISC peaceful demonstrations, that HHDL's reputation will be affected due to the coverage by the mass media.

ISC and all Dorje Shugden followers had no intention to harm anyone including HHDL. What they want is merely for the ban to be lifted.  Unless HHDL and CTA remove the ban, HHDL will continue to be subject to mass media and public scrutiny because the peaceful demonstrations shall go on.

[gbds3jewels]

The mission of dorjeshugden.com is not anti-Dalai Lama, right?!

Mission Statement:
"This website, an ongoing work in progress, is dedicated to the glorification and deeper appreciation of the name and holy work of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, who by peaceful, increasing, subjugating and wrathful means spreads in this world the general and profound teachings of the Buddhadharma that can dispel all suffering and its causes. We believe that what may sound contradictory today, will be revealed as skilful means in the future."

However many articles written here and many forum discussion do seems aggressive against The Dalai Lama. When one calls HHTDL a liar for calling DS (who is a Buddha) a demon, one is also calling another Buddha (HHTDL who is the emanation of Chenrezig) a demon in disguise. As the saying goes this is a game of kettle calling the pot black.

Can dorjeshugden.com advocates lifting of DS ban and maintain a neutral stand in regards to HHTDL? Has ds.com actually deviated from its own mission statement? Is this really not a for or against case? If I'm for DS then I'm against HHTDL and give vice versa? Put aside religious freedom, discrimination, atrocity, suffering, etc, etc.....I'm talking about just between DS or HHTDL. Can one truly be for DS AND also HHTDL without prejudice?

[fruven]

I read and these 2 points are definitely invalid and wouldn't help much but create more misunderstanding on what is acceptable on our mind.

Is the Dalai Lama safe? - by Jamyang Norbu
Phayul[Sunday, March 02, 2014 01:31]
By Jamyang Norbu

An excerpt:
...
Of course, people must be allowed their beliefs no matter how ridiculous or wrong we may perceive them. I believe people have the right to worship Shugden or any other deity they want, while the Dalai Lama as a spiritual leader certainly has the right to object to this on theological grounds and ask people to refrain from such practices. But that is not the problem. The trouble is that the Tibetan government has been inducted to implement the Dalai Lama’s proscription of Shugden worship. The Tibetan government claims it has not issued any orders or appeals to people to harass or ?ght Shugden worshippers. Yet it has produced and distributed literature and videos demonizing Shugden worshippers.
...

Oh my goodness this is so puff up way of thinking what you belief in is right and others are wrong. Your belief is superior than others therefore you're right and they're wrong? Being right has authority over wrong?

Is the Dalai Lama safe? - by Jamyang Norbu
Phayul[Sunday, March 02, 2014 01:31]
By Jamyang Norbu

...
And we should never forget that we have a far more frightening and sinister enemy poised to do the ultimate harm to His Holiness life and legacy. This enemy has murdered hundreds of lamas, slaughtered many thousands of Buddhist monks, and “disappeared” the child Panchen Lama; and as I mentioned earlier, it has been sending a stream of its agents to our exile-capital for purposes that are at the very least, disquieting. How seriously prepared are we to deal with that?
...

Is it even Dharma that thinking there is enemy when Buddha has taught that there is no real enemies. We created our own enemy. Singling out selected group of people and labeling them as enemies is the start of creating new enemies. What happen to the goal of leading all sentient beings to enlightenment?

[christine V]

To me, the extension that the nun have to get close to Dalai Lama and chant the slogan repeatably is showing that Shugden's practitioners not meant to humiliate H.H. But more to get attention from the press on this banning issues.
If Shugden's pratictioner were to harm or humiliate H.H. Then they would choose a violence acts. In fact, the way the nun talks or plead to H.H was using a humble way by talking in slow voice, more to request permission to leave this ban.
If the Shugden's practitioner were to be violence, i think this ban can be easily lifted. But, the Buddhist world would be futher seperated. Thus, using forceful action to leave this ban is not an solution. 
The Shugden's practitioner however wishes that Dalai Lama would announce the ban is lifted which will restored the harmonious amongst the Buddhist practitioner.

[fruven]

The mission of dorjeshugden.com is not anti-Dalai Lama, right?!

Mission Statement:
"This website, an ongoing work in progress, is dedicated to the glorification and deeper appreciation of the name and holy work of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, who by peaceful, increasing, subjugating and wrathful means spreads in this world the general and profound teachings of the Buddhadharma that can dispel all suffering and its causes. We believe that what may sound contradictory today, will be revealed as skilful means in the future."

However many articles written here and many forum discussion do seems aggressive against The Dalai Lama. When one calls HHTDL a liar for calling DS (who is a Buddha) a demon, one is also calling another Buddha (HHTDL who is the emanation of Chenrezig) a demon in disguise. As the saying goes this is a game of kettle calling the pot black.

Can dorjeshugden.com advocates lifting of DS ban and maintain a neutral stand in regards to HHTDL? Has ds.com actually deviated from its own mission statement? Is this really not a for or against case? If I'm for DS then I'm against HHTDL and give vice versa? Put aside religious freedom, discrimination, atrocity, suffering, etc, etc.....I'm talking about just between DS or HHTDL. Can one truly be for DS AND also HHTDL without prejudice?

Of course we can because both are enlightened. If one choose to pick one is enlightened and the other is not you will create new doubt, negative karma, and furthermore using negative speech to say enlightened being is wrong you create more and more negative karma. If you don't believe karma unknowingly you create new negative karma. If you believe in karma but don't check the background of the issues at hand and take sides you will create negative karma as well.

[icy]

No Shugden practitioners wish any harm to come to the Dalai Lama.  This is for certain.  In fact when Shugdenpas were made to choose between Dalai Lama and the protector they have to go through much agony and pain for they love both equally if not more.  However, elite scholars and lamas without bias know that this discrimination is illogic and baseless.  Sticking to commitment, heritage and remaining true to the pure lineage is the only way to go for the immeasurable benefit the protector will bring to oneself and others.

This ban serves the ugly purpose of separating people and instilling fear and hatred of the other. It is incompatible with enlightened civilization.  When soft approaches do not work, what would be a better method of blatant truth reminding the Dalai Lama and his clique, encouraging them  to think critically, use logic and reason to evaluate evidence, than to indoctrinate people in the childish and simplistic mythologies of 'spirit worshipper' or having committed treason and murder? 

The International Shugden Community (ISC) should be applauded for taking such a bold step.  Whether you are a pro or anti-Shugden, in reality this discrimination and prosecution equally have no benefit to anyone but pain.  This is exactly one of the pain that has been expressed by the writer Jamyang Norbu.

[dsiluvu]

Would these protests reduce the stature of the Dalai Lama? I look at it this way. The Dalai Lama created this theatre. He knows each act and its players. We are approaching the climax of this decades long dance. The Dalai Lama is the Dalai Lama. Those who believe he is a Buddha will continue to believe so and those who don't won't.

Great point WB. Yes it a grand theatre what the Dalai Lama has created. I am sure not any normal "human" can create such a spectacle where millions are mesmerized by his compassion and courage yet on the other hand creates confusion, doubts, sufferings for His very own people. And yes there will definitely be those who choose to believe what they believe and agreed to disagree but what it has definitely done which we cannot ignore this fact is that we who believe and is still practicing, has never ever had to work so hard to create awareness on Dorje Shugden!

When I think about it, there are so many things achieved in sense of spreading Dorje Shugden, educating people on Shugden, sharing and teaching with other the practice with others, creating artworks of Dorje Shugden. Creating materials, websites, forums, social media, mail outs etc etc on Dorje Shugden. It is like a whole huge campaign going on about the truth on Dorje Shugden.

I don't think I would ever learn so much and appreciate so much about Dorje Shugden, the Lamas and their work, the lineage, the benefits etc.  if there was no big reason to be. I don't think that we will all be discussing her and perhaps still be in our comfort zones. The ban has been like a jolt to our system, to wake us up, to allow us and opportunity to raise the awareness about Dorje Shugden! Now those who not even Buddhist, are asking, talking and finding out more about Dorje Shugden.... would it be like so if everything was hunky Dorie and fine?   

On top of that from this BAN, we're able to even root out those who a loyal and the disloyal ones, those who are sincere, and those who a shady. Many truths are coming out from this... bottom line is like what the protector himself has said... "The TRUTH will always be the TRUTH and UNTRUTH cannot be TRUTH"   

And all this because of this huge theater that the Dalai Lama has created! Just another perspective.

[dsiluvu]

I applaud the practitioners here who maintain a strong stance of Pure View, much like Pema Chodron, but this does not alter the fact that the DL is in human form in human society and needs to face the consequences of his criminal behavior.

And btw, the video of the nun speaking calmly to the DL, that is only a small portion of the footage. The DL actually returns back to her several times to say the same ridiculous shit. His "body guards" didn't stop him. Why were the protesters able to be so close to him? Because Dorje Shugden has his ways!

I am sure there is "KARMA" and this universal laws escapes no one, no matter who you are. But from our side, our view need not be so black and white. However, my question would be WHY is the Dalai Lama really doing this, creating such suffering for His people??? And if I do agree and believe He is Chenrezig, attained or clairvoyant, which I am certain, what could be the real motivation for this huge chaos?

Think deep... Who on earth on this planet is that stupid and would do something this huge and to not realise the results which will come from this action. Even I a "nobody" with no attainments can guess... this act will cause one to be scrutinized, obviously be less liked, and putting their reputation at stake. I don't think the Dalai Lama is that ignorant to not have seen all this coming, really I don't think He is that unwise. Hence my choice.

As for going back again and again to entertain the nun... I wonder why does the Dalai Lama do that as it would create more "drama" I am sure. Why did the bodyguards allowed it? Perhaps because they are tired of it and would also like to question the Dalai Lama but could not and the ISC nun basically is doing a courageous act which lot of them would not be able to because for Tibetans in would be blasphemy... definitely a total NO NO BIG TIME!     

[samayakeeper]

I think it would be beneficial for the cause of lifting the unjust ban on Dorje Shugden if a better way may be used instead of calling the Dalai Lama a liar. What you gave as an example would be appropriate provided the Dalai Lama all along was reasonable and had met and dialogued with other Tibetan high lamas about his opinion of the ban. It would also be appropriate if the ban had not be enforced causing untold misery and suffering to thousands and thousands of innocent people. But when all failed then what ISC is protesting for in its manner deems appropriate.

For the nun to have approached the Dalai Lama and said what the rest of her ISC colleagues were saying, with their placards, was not wrong. Her approach was not aggressive, she did not force her way through the crowd and the Dalai Lama’s security detail, and she was not screaming or shouting profanities. She only conveyed in person what the rest of the ISC and all Shugdenpas are saying "Stop Lying - Give Us Religious Freedom.” It was the laxity and poor security management that allowed the nun to approach the Dalai Lama. Why would Jamyang Nornu blame the nun? I also think it was bad image for the Dalai Lama that the short video clip showed how he answered the nun.