Author Topic: True Harmony or a Change of Tune?  (Read 14544 times)

DharmaDefender

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True Harmony or a Change of Tune?
« on: January 25, 2013, 07:02:46 PM »
Hmmmmm...I dont know...of course I dont understand Tibetan but Im a bit sceptical about this change of tune because His Holiness has changed his mind before (what a lesson in impermanence eh?). What do you lot think? Is this for real? Is this change of tune here to stay? Or is His Holiness trying to catch us off-guard? ;)


From: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/true-harmony-or-a-change-of-tune/

True Harmony or a Change of Tune?


His Holiness spoke on Religious Harmony and Dorje Shugden at Drepung Loseling Monastery in Mundgod, India, during a Lamrim teaching on December 9, 2012. Please refer especially to 21.00 minutes of the video onwards. A translated summary of what the Dalai Lama says can be found under the video.

His Holiness speaks on Religious Harmony & Dorje Shugden Small | Large

or watch on our server:
http://video.dorjeshugden.com/videos/dalailamareligiousharmony.flv

A translated summary of video above, from 21:00 minutes onwards:

“Within the Gelug, the Tsema Namdrol text has become the best. It used to be in Sakya but this has lessened. It would be good if others invited Geshes to teach it. We must have inter-sect harmony. That is why the practice of Gyalpo Shugden is not good. One reason is that Gelugpas have said not to study Nyingma texts. Saying this is not good. We need all lineages to unite and be harmonious.

“In Tibet and here (India), around 99% of you all have reasoned out my explanations of why we shouldn’t practice Gyalpo Shugden. There is no point to pray to a dead monk spirit (Drekpa).

“Since all of you are not practicing and I have talked about Shugden before, I do not need to talk about it again.

“In Tibet, they say that the Three Great Seats of learning (Gaden, Sera and Drepung Monasteries) have turned Nyingma because they have abandoned the practice of Gyalpo Shugden. What purpose is that? Are we now all Nyingmas here?

The Dalai Lama, as seen in this recent teaching, was much calmer and more relaxed when he spoke about Dorje Shugden

“They do not understand the situation but just overtly talk like that in Tibet. They don’t understand. If you practice Gyalpo Shugden and can gain enlightenment, I rejoice!

“Sometimes I tease you. In front of Shakyamuni, we don’t pray or wish for long life, or for no obstacles. Do we even know how to pray like that to Shakyamuni? But in the protector chapel we really ask and pray for no obstacles and long life; we pray, “May things go my way”. And at the end of our prayers, we even pray for an end to our enemies! In the temple, in front of Shakyamuni, we fold our hands. But it’s in the protector chapel that we really open up and lay our hopes.

“The 5th Dalai Lama observed this situation and thus banned Shugden, relegating Shugden practice to that of praying to a dead monk spirit which was clearly not advised.”

*****************************************

Throughout the ban on Dorje Shugden, His Holiness the Dalai Lama has maintained his stance against the practice. However, what has become notable are the changes in his tone of delivery and the way in which he speaks of the issue. What these apparent inconsistencies portray or if they have a much deeper connotation is of course up to one’s interpretation.

The video of the Dalai Lama’s speech above clearly illustrates this considerable tonal change in manner and speech as well as the ‘lyrical’ change in the way he refers to the subject.

First, there is a noticeable change in the way the Dalai Lama now refers to Dorje Shugden. Since the implementation of the ban, the Dalai Lama has always referred to this protector as “Dholgyal”, meaning “King Spirit of Dhol”. This is a derogatory term which suggests that he must have done something very wrong to reincarnate back as a “spirit king. Now, the Dalai Lama refers to him as Gyalpo Shugden – it is significant that he refers to him by his name Shugden now. Although the term “Gyalpo” is still not respectful, the inclusion of his name and acknowledgement of his identity marks a step up from the previous referrals.

Secondly, the Dalai Lama used to maintain a very hard stance against the practice of Dorje Shugden and even overtly encouraged the expulsion of monks, speaking in very strict tones. He has also been very firm about stating that his own Gurus were wrong for pursuing their practice of Dorje Shugden.

The Dalai Lama used to manifest a much harder stance against the practice of Dorje Shugden

Over the years, we have noticed considerable change in the way the Dalai Lama speaks about the practice. From saying that we should not practice at all, he has begun to say that it is up to the individual to decide if they wish to practice Shugden; that he is not telling us what to do but a choice we can make for ourselves.

The way he speaks about Shugden practice in the video above continues this train of thought and is expressed in a much more relaxed, even playful, way. He says, “If you practice Gyalpo Shugden and can gain enlightenment, I rejoice!” suggesting again that it is a choice and not an instruction that is so forcibly imposed on practitioners.

Further, the essence of this message seems to have evolved from merely emphasizing the harm of spirit worship. Instead here, the Dalai Lama engages in a broader discussion about how most practitioners relate to their Protector practices in a very mundane, base way, when in fact, true essence of enlightenment comes from a more serious propitiation to the Three Jewels.

This evolution of delivery, method and message seems to point to a more relaxed stance towards the ban, in an almost deliberate and conscious precursor to its eventual release in due time. We certainly hope that in time, the tone will relax completely to a point that the ban is released and the practice is freed.

WisdomBeing

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Re: True Harmony or a Change of Tune?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2013, 07:48:03 PM »
i must say i DO like the change of tone and i hope that this is the direction HH the Dalai Lama will go in and eventually lift the ban.

I have to add though that what he said about the Fifth Dalai Lama is not true. The Great Fifth DID think that Dorje Shugden was a spirit at the beginning but when the great masters could not subdue Dorje Shugden, the Great Fifth realised that he was a Buddha and thus changed his mind. He made a statue of Dorje Shugden by hand and also built the first chapel to Dorje Shugden in Lhasa, called Trode Khangsar, which still stands today. You can read this at http://dorjeshugden.com. I sincerely hope the HH Dalai Lama will follow the Great Fifth's footsteps and also change his mind about Dorje Shugden and SOON!
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Ensapa

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Re: True Harmony or a Change of Tune?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2013, 03:38:32 AM »
The Dalai Lama's change of tone is indeed more interesting and a very welcomed one. He seems to have softened up even more compared to 2011. he even mentions that if you can attain enlightenment relying on Dorje Shugden, he rejoices. That to me sounds more like reverse psychology and that he is planting the seed sand conditioning the minds of his followers to accept Dorje Shugden in the near future. In this current context it seems that he is not happy with people requesting Dorje Shugden to give them trivial and samsaric things and thus he banned the practice. But still, it is an improvement still. Perhaps he will one day say in his teachings that everyone is free to practice Dorje Shugden and they can still come to his teachings? the day for that is coming near!

dsiluvu

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Re: True Harmony or a Change of Tune?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2013, 07:33:08 AM »
But is it enough for the CTA to change their policy or rather follow their own democratic policy and allow the welfare of Shugden practitioners in exile to live their lives equally with the non-shugdenpas?

I am sure the letters and statements made by Shugden practitioners all around the world being sent to them are making them itch in a good way because it simply rings truth... if it doe not then where are their points to counter the injustice they have created, where are their solid evidence that they have not been biased to Shugden practitioners? Are Shugden practitioners children being allowed in to normal schools??? C'mon these are just innocent children? Let's not talk about Dharma and what's right or wrong, these are just normal ethics and love that everyone abides. How uncivilized and cruel can one govt be?... look even in Africa, kids are getting to be in schools! Would the CTA like the whole world to know they are biased even with innocent children and deprive them of education? 

If more and more people/media knows about it... the more the CTA would have to shut up and do something cos the cats out of the bag! And if they do not wish for their reputation to be furthered downgraded... from CTAdmin to what... "Group" they should seriously bring the ban down and off and officially state it before it is too late and the whole world will know their hypocrisy and fake democracy. I am sure they do not wish for that to happen! *gulp*

vajratruth

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Re: True Harmony or a Change of Tune?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2013, 02:16:13 PM »
The Dalai Lama has definitely softened his tone and his statement that if one can gain enlightenment through practicing Dorje Shugden then His Holiness will rejoice for the practitioners. This is encouraging and for sure it is a different message to the previous ones where the inference was that Shugden practice will not only send the practitioner to the lower realms, it will also cause harm to His Holiness. In any case, it would have been difficult to substantiate those propositions because after all, the Dalai Lama is still in the pink of health and all the prominent Shugden lamas such as Lama Yeshe, Pabongkha Rinpoche and the Trijang Rinpoche have in fact returned and continue to be strongly involved in the Dharma. I have always believed that the Dalai Lama had a bigger purpose in mind when he spoke against the Protector practice and perhaps now His Holiness will slowly but surely cause the practice to be restored.

The CTA must be alert and take this cue from the Dalai Lama. When the Dalai Lama advised the people against the Protector practice the CTA translated that into a decree that they took to the extreme such that innocent people were oppressed and the Tibetan community fractured. Now with this new development, the CTA should take advantage of it and win back the hearts and support of Shugden practitioners which it desperately needs. Accordingly the CTA should no longer withhold  the basic welfare rights and respect to Shugden worshippers, a policy that they have maintained for quite some time to heir own detriment. The CTA cannot afford to be selective otherwise it would become clear that they would only obey the Dalai Lama when it suited them.

samayakeeper

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Re: True Harmony or a Change of Tune?
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2013, 04:05:53 AM »
In this video, HHDL seems to speak with humor and with toned down words when he mentions Dorje Shugden. But that's it.

Maybe it signals the start of putting down the practice. But it would be really rejoicing if Shugdenpas and their children and families are accorded the same basic human rights like other citizens of the world. This would be the humane beginning to an end of harsh treatments to innocent people who want to continue with their religious belief, a belief that was passed down through generations. These people did nothing wrong. They didn't go up in arms against the CTA and Dalai Lama. They are not interested in politics. They just want to continue with their Dorje Shugden practice, in peace and in harmony within the community they live in. What is wrong with that?

Ensapa

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Re: True Harmony or a Change of Tune?
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2013, 06:00:41 AM »
But is it enough for the CTA to change their policy or rather follow their own democratic policy and allow the welfare of Shugden practitioners in exile to live their lives equally with the non-shugdenpas?

I am sure the letters and statements made by Shugden practitioners all around the world being sent to them are making them itch in a good way because it simply rings truth... if it doe not then where are their points to counter the injustice they have created, where are their solid evidence that they have not been biased to Shugden practitioners? Are Shugden practitioners children being allowed in to normal schools??? C'mon these are just innocent children? Let's not talk about Dharma and what's right or wrong, these are just normal ethics and love that everyone abides. How uncivilized and cruel can one govt be?... look even in Africa, kids are getting to be in schools! Would the CTA like the whole world to know they are biased even with innocent children and deprive them of education? 

If more and more people/media knows about it... the more the CTA would have to shut up and do something cos the cats out of the bag! And if they do not wish for their reputation to be furthered downgraded... from CTAdmin to what... "Group" they should seriously bring the ban down and off and officially state it before it is too late and the whole world will know their hypocrisy and fake democracy. I am sure they do not wish for that to happen! *gulp*

I can think of a name for them when they get downgraded once more: the Tibetan aristocratic society where they have elections over momos and butter tea. Hahahaha. It is seriously heading that way. I mean, what they are doing are very basic infractions of human rights yet everyone chooses to ignore it due to the power of the USA who wants to use the Tibetan issue as a political agenda to further their own goals (and CTA shamelessly plays into their hands for the money, i presume.) CTA has lots of dirty secrets that they would not want the world to know such as their fake democracy (its either you are for or against the Dalai Lama's party, does that sound democratic to you? not to me.) They should really remove the ban before things really get nasty for them.

Positive Change

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Re: True Harmony or a Change of Tune?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2013, 01:17:20 PM »
It is interesting to note how HHDL has indeed manifested many different "tunes"... is this an inconsistency or ingenious play at emotions? I for one would believe in the latter as HHDL is devoid of any wrong or mistake... How can an emanation of Chenrezig be wrong? If I choose to believe in the former, then I would in essence say that HHDL (Chenrezig) can indeed make a mistake and that throws the very belief in our Gurus (and Buddhas) asunder!

This "sway or change", for me is in a most positive move as it points or indicates that HHDL is setting the stage for yet another change in the whole issue of the ban... perhaps the ban is to be lifted soon and hence weaning his "supporters" off the point? Or perhaps a calculated and deliberate "action" to spark off such discussions we are having right now, towards the lifting of the ban... either way, I take it as that, the lifting of the ban.

I hope this will happen sooner than later as the sufferings of those directly associated and effected by the ban is still happening!


lotus1

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Re: True Harmony or a Change of Tune?
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2013, 10:38:25 PM »
It is interesting to see that HHDL has changed his tune towards Dorje Shugden.
I hope this is his step toward lifting the ban. It is just illogical to see an emanation of Chenrezig banning the practice of his Guru and lineage with reasons such as it is an evil spirit and practicing it will harm his life. http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/the-dalai-lamas-reasons-for-the-ban-and-refutations-of-these-reasons/

Further information on the article regarding the Dorje Shugden chapel Trode Khangsar built by the Fifth Dalai Lama in Tibet: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/places/dorje-shugden-chapel-lhasa-tibet-built-by-the-dalai-lama/
There is also prayer by the Fifth Dalai Lama and HH even crafted a famous and still-existing statue of Dorje Shugden with his own hands. The Dorje Shugden statue crafted by HH can be found in at Gaden Pelgyeling Monastery, Nepal: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/prayers/dorje-shugden-prayers/prater-by-the-fifth-dalai-lama-to-gyelchen-dorje-shugden/

May the ban be lifted soonest and there be true harmony and peace within the Buddhist. Hope more people will be blessed by Lord Shugden and supported in their spiritual journey.

Ensapa

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Re: True Harmony or a Change of Tune?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2013, 06:11:31 AM »
it's not the first time that the Dalai Lamas have changed their tune. The 5th Dalai Lama changed his position on Dorje Shugden after realizing that he is not an evil spirit but a Dharma protector in the from of a tsen. With that in mind, dont you think the current Dalai Lama would do the same and unban Dorje Shugden and perhaps even enthrone him as the principal protector of Tibetan Buddhism like the 11th Dalai Lama did? The 13th Dalai Lama had a slight misunderstanding with Dorje Shugden but later relied upon him. But for Dorje Shugden detractors, the reason why they gave the 5th, 13th and current Dalai Lama the great was because all 3 were 'against' Dorje Shugden...but little did they know that they changed their stance after a while.

Q

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Re: True Harmony or a Change of Tune?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2013, 12:26:09 PM »
I think it's about time for the DS ban to go silent.

Looking at how things are now that Trijang Rinpoche has started giving initiations around the world, and spreading DS practice strongly, I think HHDL is being very respectful towards Trijang Rinpoche.

After all, Trijang Rinpoche is HHDL's teacher... it is not possible that while the teacher goes around the world, giving initiations of DS, while on the other hand, the student says that DS is wrong.

It certainly is good news. With HHDL not mentioning about DS anymore and Trijang Rinpoche going on an Europe tour (I hope world tour soon =))... DS practice will be able to spread far and wide like never before. Who knows, the ban may be released due DS practitioners outnumbering those that do not practice DS.

Although this is not some kind of 'spiritual war' between the two forces, but history is written by the winner and new trends are made by most influential people of the time. Trijang Rinpoche is going to be the most influential Lama of our time, and this is great hope for all DS practitioners.

Ensapa

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Re: True Harmony or a Change of Tune?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2013, 05:49:15 AM »
I think it's about time for the DS ban to go silent.

Looking at how things are now that Trijang Rinpoche has started giving initiations around the world, and spreading DS practice strongly, I think HHDL is being very respectful towards Trijang Rinpoche.

After all, Trijang Rinpoche is HHDL's teacher... it is not possible that while the teacher goes around the world, giving initiations of DS, while on the other hand, the student says that DS is wrong.

It certainly is good news. With HHDL not mentioning about DS anymore and Trijang Rinpoche going on an Europe tour (I hope world tour soon =))... DS practice will be able to spread far and wide like never before. Who knows, the ban may be released due DS practitioners outnumbering those that do not practice DS.

Although this is not some kind of 'spiritual war' between the two forces, but history is written by the winner and new trends are made by most influential people of the time. Trijang Rinpoche is going to be the most influential Lama of our time, and this is great hope for all DS practitioners.

Dalai Lama not condemning Dorje Shugden also means that he seems to want to change the direction of his followers, perhaps make them neutral about Dorje Shugden. With this, hopefully Dorje Shugden practitioners are allowed to go to his teachings and are not forced to sign something declaring that they are not practitioners or something like that and Dharma centers will no longer have that discriminatory clause on their centers. But I wouldnt hope on that anytime soon.  I dont think so it's a spiritual war, i think the Dalai Lama is just leading the people to a different direction now, from hate to being neutral, and perhaps much later, to love.

Gabby Potter

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Re: True Harmony or a Change of Tune?
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2015, 11:13:37 AM »
I would say that as time passes by, the ban is one step closer to being lifted. I have faith in the Buddha Dharma, I have faith in His Holiness the Dalai Lama so whatever His Holiness does, I am sure that His Holiness does it for a reason. I myself is a Dorje Shugden practitioner, but I chose not to hate any side because I don't see the good in hating someone else.

prodorjeshugden

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Re: True Harmony or a Change of Tune?
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2016, 02:24:19 PM »
I really don't know what to say about this, but for certain there really is something strange about this. First the Dalai Lama said that the people who practice Dholgyal must be segregated, but now the Dalai Lama is calling for unity, so should we believe  what the Dalai Lama said last time or what he says now?

If the change of tune is a real thing and isn't a joke I am pretty sure that it will be highly honoured(seeing that there has been so much disharmony for so long) But we shouldn't be too hopeful about this change and give up every effort to end the ban thinking that our work is done, we should keep up the praying till the ban comes down permanently.

grandmapele

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Re: True Harmony or a Change of Tune?
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2016, 03:03:16 PM »
It's been 3 years, so have the tune really changed? The Dalai Lama is still propounding peace, love and compassion just to mention a few.  Nothing has changed. The illegal ban is till on and as illogical as ever. It is only logical to the ignorant who has had no opportunity to learn more of Dorje Shugden. Wisdom is the antidote to ignorance and the only way out of ignorance.