Dalai Lama found guilty of persecution by High Court

[kelsang]

I dont really get the text though .. it doesent seem that he was found guilty in the sense of a conviction.

http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/index.php?/

[a friend]

It seemed to me also that the message was unclear. I asked a friend in Delhi and he replied the following:

There is no resolution yet. The Judge said he found discrimination and abuses against Shugden devotees. I think he will pass resolution after few hearings.

[LosangKhyentse]

Dear Thom,

Thank you for your steady & loyal commitment to the cause of 'Free Shugden'. You are indeed an inspiring practitioner. Firm, steady, loyal, strong guru devotion, and keeps to the samaya you made with your teacher.

Your wonderful.

I am personally waiting very much to see COURT ORDER PAPERS from the Indian High Court you will be getting from Kundeling Rinpoche. Please do post it up on this site THE MINUTE YOU GET IT if I may request of you.


Your devotion to your practice is the example all of us will follow.

TK

[godi]

why is there nothing in the news about the criminal case and its results?

[crazycloud]

it is indeed important that we gain access to official documentation. Anyone?

[crazycloud]

thank you, sir,

[Zhalmed Pawo]

Incredible mumbo-jumbo, all that was. Now I understand why Britain and India cannot function as legalistic countries, but only exist as phantoms of lawfulness... 

I think the writ says, that DL must show they are not denying Dorje Shugden People permits by December 9th,2009.

Hmmm... I think it says, that the DL-side has agreed to provide the court some names of DS-practitioners who have been issued ID-cards, and asked more time to provide all the data. So if they provide some names, they therefore can show that ID-card-ban does not exist. Therefore, since there are many old-timers, whose names and cards can be shown, the DL-side wins. If there is no statistical display or time-frame over the issuance of those ID-cards, the DL can prove his case by merely quoting the ID-numbers of Trijang, Zong and Ling, in conjunction with a few new-comer-DS-dudes from Tibet.

The only "wrongdoing" they can be held against, which they in fact admit, is "denying monastic refrenses (sic)", which takes the issue out of worldy court and into the monastic autonomic decisions. The monastic heads, the abbots, can choose not to give monastic refrenses (sic), and their boss is within his rights to formulate the conditions of those "refrensegivings".

The case looks bad, according to that Court Statement, at least, I say. But hey, it is India, so who knows. Just pay the judge, and that's it - did someone really expect to get justice from those spineless corrupt swindlers. It is an Indian Court, ferchrissakes.

[a friend]

Dear Thom,
You might've expected a spectacular condemnation of the DL's actions by the Indian Courts.
This is not something to be expected. Kundeling Rinpoche's words are quite realistic:
... the ruling Government of the land will neither allow Shugden followers their rights to a landmark victory—which will undermine the prestige and credibility of the Dalai Lama. Nor will this government allow its honourable guest to wipe out the identity of Shugden followers in India. The existence of a controlled section of adversaries to the Dalai Lama—according to the sceptics—are useful both to the Indian and the Chinese Governments— ...

Furthermore, beyond today's political interests, there is one thing that the judges won't forget: that the DL was Nehru's and Indira Gandhi's friend and most honored guest. To go against him could be felt as a type of insult against these historic characters.

No matter what, the fact that the case is still in the Indian Courts is favorable to the Protector's people, it acts as a deterrent to excesive abuse from the political leader living in Dharamsala. Such ongoing protection is not to be underestimated, it should be welcome.

[godi]

Hi,
this is a fantastic situation!! I am not a political / legal expert, but from my point of view, there are 2 possibilities how this story will continue:

A. The TGIE will show some identity cards which habe been issued after the ban has been enforced. Then the DL and the TGIE will find it very difficult to explain to their followers, why everybody is asked to not support Dorje Shugden practitioners but the TGIE is "helping" them. Also when the TGIE will show identity card for Dorje shugden practitioners, it will help Dorje shugden practitioners a lot, because they are no more officially seen by the TGIE as outcasts.
B.  The TGIE will not be able to show some identity cards issued after the ban has been enforced... This would not be the best situation for the DL.

Anyway I find the current results fantastic. Maybe I am too naive?

[Lineageholder]

I'm less optimistic.  Kundeling's background information on how India regards the Dalai Lama was very interesting.  They don't want to expose the Dalai Lama's illegal treatment of Shugden practitioners because he might be a potential 'weapon' against China if relations degenerate (something that the Dalai Lama seems to be encouraging to happen).  What if the CTA simply forge a load of identity cards and say there's no case?  I think they are capable of anything.  It would then suit the GOI to let the Dalai Lama 'off the hook'.  Hopefully it's not that simple for the Dalai Lama and his henchmen.

At a more basic psychological level, I think there's massive resistance to realizing that the Dalai Lama's apparent good reputation and qualities is based on a pack of lies and deception.  WE DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE IT. I've read 'A Great Deception' - it's well written, well-researched and contains clear references, but the extent of the Dalai Lama's deception is shocking.  You want to think it's just some far-fetched conspiracy theory and say "no, this can't be true' but the evidence is there.  This is one reason why the world's press are reluctant to investigate.  There is a credibility barrier equivalent to accepting, for example, that Bambi is a serial killer!  It's not easy to get over that hurdle.

It's incredible how much scorn is heaped on those who openly criticize the Dalai Lama, even though there is ample evidence to support their claims! (ask Michael Backman who has received death threats).  Everyone wants to believe in the False Lama and finding out that they had been duped would be equivalent to finding out there is no Father Christmas or Tooth Fairy - a massive moral and psychological disappointment.  Not only this - there are then recriminations for oneself being 'stupid' enough to have been taken in by the facade.  When the magic disappears, anger remains in its wake.

It takes a brave person to stand up and expose the DL for the fraud that he is because, even if they are believed (and there is a very high credibility barrier) they will then have to bear the disappointment and anger of a disillusioned world that wants to believe that the Dalai Lama is pure, compassionate and selfless for the sake of their own happiness and encouragement.  That's quite a burden to bear.  Who is brave enough to do this?  Not the Government of India in the form of the Indian High Court, I fear.

I think it's sad that such a self-serving politician has managed to become such a great spiritual icon and beacon of hope for many people.  There can be nothing but suffering and disillusionment for the world as a result.  Either that, or they will become complicit in maintaining the lie because the truth is just too painful to bear.  Either way, everyone loses.  The reputation of Buddhism will be in tatters or the Dalai Lama will continue to abuse his name, power and position, continuing to cause suffering to millions.  Not a great prospect, or I am being too pessimistic?  Perhaps its enough that it seems the GOI will prevent the Dalai Lama inflicting the worst excesses of persecution on Shugden practitioners.

[a friend]

Lineageholder, you say:

The reputation of Buddhism will be in tatters or the Dalai Lama will continue to abuse his name, power and position, continuing to cause suffering to millions.  Not a great prospect, or I am being too pessimistic?  Perhaps its enough that it seems the GOI will prevent the Dalai Lama inflicting the worst excesses of persecution on Shugden practitioners

At the beginning of this website we were discussing the matter of amply revealing or not revealing to the world what was going on with the 1996 ban. I was of the opinion that it was best to remain silent for the reason you give, that since DL has been the face of Buddhism for the world then it was impossible to inflict such suffering of disillusionment and ensuing lack of faith to unaccountable people. Afterwards, of course, came the incredible schism imposed from the Dalai Lama on our main monasteries, and the total persecution of practitioners around the world in the Tibetan communities, Dharma Centers, etc.

When that happened, I have to say that the main thought was to try to defend people against the abuse, mainly the monks from being physically attacked and ostracized. The two abbotts from Sera Je and Sera May alerted the Pomra monks that the DL wanted them not only out of the monasteries but out of India altogether. Actually many went back to Tibet. So that level of abuse made it impossible not to do something to stop the DL ... hence the innumerable messages to Indian authorities, to the Press around the world etc.

I always thought that the manners of the WSS were not entirely appropriate and I fear that Z.P. is right, they might not be taken seriously by many because of it, because of sounding a bit tabloid like (well, tabloids are a British specialty, so of course they were influenced by that style, and it works for some people). But I have to confess that their rough style during the demonstrations was probably the best external protection for those monks in India, because the demos focused the world on the existence of the problem itself. Of course, as you say, afterwards the world chooses to ignore it. But since that taking off the lid already happened, Dharamsala knows that now there are boundaries, and if new abuses were to arise, then the eyes of the world would pick up on them much quicker and with more informative basis than it was possible up until before the Summer of 2008.

But yes, I think that all of that is enough. The ghost of more demonstrations and the unwillingness of the Indian government to allow the excesses of persecution against the Protector´s practitioners are enough deterrent, enough protection. We should not try to force people to give up their faith in the Dalai Lama for the reasons that you yourself are stating so eloquently. And I sincerely think that ourselves we should just try to forget about him. His kind Teacher will take care of him and his problems, we don´t have to focus any more in what he's done. This does not preclude the fact that we have to constantly be alert about new negative developments. I sincerely hope they won´t happen.

[crazycloud]

But how about this as a possible option:

TGIE supplies evidence of having given travel documents and government services to DS practitioners, and they are shown to have been falsified. Big trouble for DL if this is shown.

OR

TGIE produces very limited evidence of travel documents and government services to DS practitioners (all they will actually have) and THOUSANDS of DS practitioners testify to the oppopsite, giving massive evidence of persecution and misrepresentation, perjury etc from DL, Kalon Tri and the TGIE overall. VERY bad for DL.


I would love to see this go into overtime...the longer it goes on the more vulnerable "His Holiness" is. The more he lies, the more exposed he becomes.

This opportunity must be capitalized upon, it will likely not come again....

[a friend]

In view of some valuable information published here by Thom (and who knows why retrieved), about the Court case in India, where it says that some procedures are posponed to some date in early 2010; and other informations as well, where it's very clear that the Court case is still going on, I suggest that we change the title of this thread, that is misleading.
The Court didn't find the DL guilty of anything at all, because there has been no law judgement, sentence or judiciary decision, in other words no condemnation of any sort against him. The Court goes on demanding more data, or dealing with procedural matters regarding moves from the parties involved. It has not issued any decision, whether finding the DL guilty nor innocent. This is going to take still some time to happen, if it ever happens ...
So hoping that this is not too much to ask, please change the title of this thread! Thank you.

[LosangKhyentse]

We must forgive this Geshe Tashi Tsethar. He is unexposed and uneducated beyond his buddhist training. Being educated does not mean you have a wide, open, exposed view of the world. At the same time he desperately wants to get into the Dalai Lama's good books. His attempt to 5 mins of claim to fame within the Tibetan exile communities. May Geshe have happiness, correct view and peace. May he put his buddhist learning into solitary retreats ending in realizations.

1. Can such a letter take weight in any democratic country such as US, UK, Germany, Australia, Taiwan, Japan, Canada, France, etc?



2. What democratic country in the world TODAY would tolerate ostracizing a group because of their religious beliefs?



3. What leader in the democratic countries today can openly say to avoid and not have any spiritual/material connections with a group of people because of their relgious beliefs?



4. What democratic govt or it's ppl would OFFICIALLY ban a type of worship of any god, deity or divine being?



5. In democratic countries, if you wish, you may worship satan. The govt must provide satan worshippers with full rights as with any other citizens of their country.



6. In Majority Catholic Italy, there are jews, muslims, buddhists, sikhs, hindus also. But the minorities religions have not federal or state bans/rules/ostracization against them. The pope and the prime minister of Italy couldn't speak against other minority religions or practices.



7. The many Tibetans go along with what the Dalai lama says because they are not exposed to the outside world, democracy or freedom. If you don't fall in line with the Dalai Lama, you are a traitor

and branded a Chinese spy instantly. That would mean further ostracization from the Tibetan Communities and it would be taboo or traitorous to associate with you.



8. The Dalai Lama should not ostracize or speak out against any religious practice within Tibet and outside. Muslims, jews, christians, hindus, satanists all can join in his talks, ceremonies, initiations

if they wish. They are not in alignment with his thought at all. I would say that Dorje Shugden ppl are not in alignment with his thought on one issue only. So Why are they not given the same rights as other exiled Tibetans.



9. If the Dalai Lama wants to bring peace, closure and autonomy for Tibet, he must go to Beijing, and make friends with the Chinese Govt before it is too late. After all, he is in his seventies already. Branding Tibetans to be on Chinese payroll, but at the same time calling the chinese his sisters/brothers does not make sense.



10. Dorje shugden worshippers just like any other citizens of this planet do not deserve to be biased or sidelined due to their religious beliefs in today's 21st century modern world of science and
'enlightenment'.



TK

[a friend]

Thank you TK for your compassionate, thoughtful comments. We definitely have to develop compassion for them all --those whose views and actions are so unfortunate. After all, they are our beloved mothers of old, who treated us with such kindness in so many past lives.