Author Topic: Dalai Lama Bashing  (Read 75678 times)

Helena

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #150 on: November 16, 2010, 03:05:27 PM »
I think you should address your "questions" to Thaimonk and not me, since you think Thaimonk has refuted the teaching of Je Tsongkhapa. Especially so, if you mean what you wrote that you will try to learn as much as possible from Thaimonk.

I have read through the posts and I do not see that Thaimonk refuted Je Tsongkhapa's teachings.

That is all I can say as I am not Thaimonk and it would be unfair for me to assume anything more.

I guess, our minds do choose what it wants to see and will interpret as it chooses.

Teachings do not need to come in the form of scriptures and texts alone. There are teachings abound everywhere around us.

Every day, every situation, the people we meet present opportunities for us to practice.

Wish you the best of luck and may you gain true realizations so that you can benefit many beings.

I got to get back to my own studies and work.
Helena

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #151 on: November 16, 2010, 03:16:00 PM »
I think you should address your "questions" to Thaimonk and not me, since you think Thaimonk has refuted the teaching of Je Tsongkhapa.


I think what ??? ??? ??? ??? :-[ :-[ :-[

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #152 on: November 16, 2010, 03:23:50 PM »
Dear Helena,

First, I wrote this:

I am not a partisan of my root guru
I do not hate those who write many things
That are made to appear like a correct path
I hold as a teacher only Him
Whose word possesses reason

Thaimonk answered this:


Then you surpass all the teachers,
your wisdom is greater than theirs,
you have no klesas to overcome,
hence your view is supreme

Your view of those who possess reason or not
is unbiased since you have no karmas that bind,
therefore you need no teacher, as you hear
what you deem as reason and all others are not,

You need no guru, as only those that speak with your
reason you hold.
Hence the tantras become difficult as devotion is not necessary,
all the great masters who hold their gurus supreme, must rewrite the texts.
Ashvagosha, Atisha, Tsongkapa, Shantideva all would follow not a guru
to enlightenment and their devotions are wrong.
Woe to the student who need no guru, such is a time as predicted
in the kaliyuga.

And now I write this:

Shamkarapati's "Praise of the Supra-Divine (Devatishayastotra) says:

I am not a partisan of Buddha,
I do not hate Kapila and the others,
I hold as a teacher only
Him whose word possesses reason.

"You should forsake partisanship and hatred for the systems of your own and others' teachers and analyse
which of them provide good and bad explanations. Then, you should adopt only that which shows the means
of attaining the two aims of trainees (high status within cyclic existence and the definite goodness of liberation
and omniscience) and provides correct proofs. The scriptures of the two systems are what are to be analysed
to find which does or does not bear the truth; thus it would not be suitable to cite them as a proof (of their
own truth). Only reasoning distinguishes what is or is not true."

Je Tsongkhapa
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 03:26:35 PM by Heartspoon »

WisdomBeing

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #153 on: November 16, 2010, 05:32:04 PM »
Heartspoon, Helena,

May i respectfully suggest that we change the subject as this endless exchange seems to be going nowhere?

Thank you.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

triesa

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #154 on: November 18, 2010, 01:08:13 AM »
Heartspoon, Helena,

May i respectfully suggest that we change the subject as this endless exchange seems to be going nowhere?

Thank you.

I agree with Wisdom Being.

Take this opportunity to practise "Let the others win".

Lets move on.........

Cheers to both Helena and Heartspoon.

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #155 on: November 18, 2010, 08:36:52 AM »
Lets move on...

Je Tsongkhapa wrote:

"You should forsake partisanship and hatred for the systems of your own and others' teachers and analyse
which of them provide good and bad explanations. Then, you should adopt only that which shows the means
of attaining the two aims of trainees (high status within cyclic existence and the definite goodness of liberation
and omniscience) and provides correct proofs. The scriptures of the two systems are what are to be analysed
to find which does or does not bear the truth; thus it would not be suitable to cite them as a proof (of their
own truth). Only reasoning distinguishes what is or is not true."

Keeping in mind this instruction, one should read again the list of "proofs" that HH the 14th Dalai Lama presented
to his tutor Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche.

HH the 14th Dalai Lama himself said that if one simply accepted his "proofs" without checking their accuracy first,
this one would not act as a Buddhist.

What do you think ?
Should we check ?
And if you agree that we should: does "only reasoning distinguish what is or is not true" ?

« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 08:46:37 AM by Heartspoon »

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #156 on: November 18, 2010, 08:49:51 AM »
Heartspoon, Helena,

May i respectfully suggest that we change the subject as this endless exchange seems to be going nowhere?

Thank you.

I agree with Wisdom Being.

Take this opportunity to practise "Let the others win".

Lets move on.........

Cheers to both Helena and Heartspoon.

What do you think ?
Should we follow the instruction of HH the Dalai Lama and check his "proofs" ?
Or should we practice "Let the others win" and not check his "proofs" ?

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #157 on: November 18, 2010, 09:27:19 AM »
Are you afraid to check, thinking that HH the Dalai Lama and his tutor Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche cannot
be both right ?
Why do you think they cannot be both right ?
What is the probability of you being right and one of them proved wrong ?
If you fairly think of your own "training" in Dharma and that of either of them,
how would you rate your need of thinking again on this topic ?
What is the probability that one of them would be proved wrong in such a topic ?
What is the probability that two enlightened beings would disagree in such a topic ?
What is the probability that such a highly trained being as HH the Dalai Lama would present
illogical "proofs" to such a highly trained being as his tutor Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche ?
For the benefit of whom did they act in the way they did ?
What is the meaning of the words said by HH the Dalai Lama to his tutor Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche ?
What is the meaning of the answer of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche to HH the Dalai Lama ?

« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 09:32:52 AM by Heartspoon »

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #158 on: November 19, 2010, 03:53:41 AM »
Oh, how surprising !

Today, my neighbors all met together. They were very excited.
For a very good reason. You see something unheard of happened...
For the very first time, a new form of practice will be available.

It's such an earth-shaking scoop that you had better be seated
before reading on, or I fear someone could accidentally lose the use
of his legs...

Our "rich, powerful and much admired by the community" neighbor
had the extraordinary skill to find for us a new way of practicing Dharma:
 
Using critical thinking is not anymore requested

From now on, if we have any doubt about anything a single answer will
be sufficient for anything thrown our way:

"it's like that because our 'rich, powerful and much admired by the community'
neighbor said "it's like that".


How surprising ! And Je Tsonkhapa who had to do all those unbelievable practices.
Today, it's incredibly easier, me thinks...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 05:51:50 AM by Heartspoon »

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #159 on: November 19, 2010, 04:11:11 AM »
The kids are so happy - Immunity granted

When I came back home, kids were stoning my house.
Nothing special, you know, it happens each time our
"rich, powerful and much admired by the community"
neighbor expounds to them his new system of practice.

Here they all call me the "old-fashioned" one or the one
who refuses to think like all of us.

I tried to speak with the kids, but they laughed out loud.
Our "rich, powerful and much admired by the community"
neighbor granted all of them immunity since they adopted
his new kind of practice.

You see life tremendously changed for them, they are so
happy: from now on, they will not have to face any
consequence for their acts.

Our "rich, powerful and much admired by the community"
neighbor has promised that he will take upon himself all
the karmic consequences of their acts.

If only I could obtain such a deal for myself.

Unbelievable...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 04:20:45 AM by Heartspoon »

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #160 on: November 19, 2010, 04:56:48 AM »
Elixir of immortality

Tonight I went again to the woods and I met an old original who spent years alone in solitude.
He wishes to find the Elixir of immortality and searches tirelessly.
He had very big news for me: he doesn't need to search anymore, our "rich, powerful and much
admired by the community" neighbor has found it.

It works like that:

Until now, for the old-fashioned ones,

Bad speech, calumnies directed towards someone are like blessings, long life ceremonies for this person.
Being subjected to them clears obstacles, eliminates bad karma. If one keeps patience while being subjected
to those forms of abuse, it greatly increases the merits and thus contributes to increase one's life span.

Very simple: one doesn't need to ask for them, one doesn't need to pay for them, one doesn't even need
to know that it is happening. In any case he will benefit from it.

So one should really rejoice if he has to exert patience when subjected to harm.

But there is a big problem : of course, the poor being who is doing such deeds is putting himself in exactly the reverse position. Frightening !

From now on,  the new practice of our "rich, powerful and much admired by the community" neighbor:

Thanks to his newly found practice, as his disciples don't have to face the karmic consequences of their
acts, thanks to the immunity graciously granted by our neighbor, logically everyone will benefit from
the forms of abuse mentionned above, the person who is doing the bad deeds as well as the one who is
subjected to harm. Death is old news: now it will be almost impossible to die.

Big problem resolved: this way, he has really found the famed elixir of immortality
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 06:00:43 AM by Heartspoon »

beggar

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #161 on: November 19, 2010, 10:22:05 AM »
What do you think ?
Should we follow the instruction of HH the Dalai Lama and check his "proofs" ?
Or should we practice "Let the others win" and not check his "proofs" ?

yes, we should always check, use logic. Letting others win is not about some mindless "stupid compassion" (in that case, we will let someone "win" even if they come and try to kill us! Letting others win is about not "giving in" by reacting in negative, ways, arguing for the sake of aruging and perpetuating negativity / negative karma.

Checking someone's argument or proofs is not about us winning or them winning. It is about debating a point out with logic and seeing if it can apply and bring benefit. If we feel it cannot, then we do not follow it. Whether we decide to follow this person's argument or not doesn't mean they have "won" or "lost".

Even if we check the Dalai Lama's "proofs" against the logic of Dharma and disagree with his arguments, we can still "let him win" by not insulting or criticising him in a damaging way. We don't need to "win" by squashing him, name calling, or trying to bring ruin to his name and reputation. We can question, with Dharma and compassion, but in a way that doesn't damage others or create more negative thinking or hatred.

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #162 on: November 19, 2010, 10:45:35 AM »
What do you think ?
Should we follow the instruction of HH the Dalai Lama and check his "proofs" ?
Or should we practice "Let the others win" and not check his "proofs" ?

yes, we should always check, use logic. Letting others win is not about some mindless "stupid compassion" (in that case, we will let someone "win" even if they come and try to kill us! Letting others win is about not "giving in" by reacting in negative, ways, arguing for the sake of aruging and perpetuating negativity / negative karma.

Checking someone's argument or proofs is not about us winning or them winning. It is about debating a point out with logic and seeing if it can apply and bring benefit. If we feel it cannot, then we do not follow it. Whether we decide to follow this person's argument or not doesn't mean they have "won" or "lost".

Even if we check the Dalai Lama's "proofs" against the logic of Dharma and disagree with his arguments, we can still "let him win" by not insulting or criticising him in a damaging way. We don't need to "win" by squashing him, name calling, or trying to bring ruin to his name and reputation. We can question, with Dharma and compassion, but in a way that doesn't damage others or create more negative thinking or hatred.

And then out of loving kindness, compassion and skillful means, uttering useful even if unpleasant words to hear, we will behave properly...

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #163 on: November 19, 2010, 12:39:35 PM »
Correct use of reasoning will never lead us
to think that either HH the 14th Dalai Lama
or his tutor Trijang Rinpoche are giving
misleading instructions.

Could it be that we either don't understand
properly the instructions or that even though
we understand them we don't apply them to
transform our minds ?

Lineageholder

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #164 on: November 19, 2010, 09:36:01 PM »
Correct use of reasoning will never lead us
to think that either HH the 14th Dalai Lama
or his tutor Trijang Rinpoche are giving
misleading instructions.

I'm sorry, but I've got to disagree with this one.  The Dalai Lama clearly is giving misleading instructions, and this is causing suffering to the Tibetan community in particular and the international Buddhist community in general.

How can instructing the abbots of Gelugpa monasteries to expel Dorje Shugden practitioners, as well as all the discrimination and ostracism that has taken place, be correct instructions?  Correct instructions lead to happiness not misery and compassion protects living beings, not inflicts harm on them.