Author Topic: Dalai Lama Bashing  (Read 75679 times)

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #135 on: November 16, 2010, 11:45:08 AM »
Heartspoon,

I totally empathize with WB. I don't get it either.

I have read through it a couple of times. Sorry, I still don't get what you mean to say.

Although a flair of words is a gift, it would be a greater gift if those words could be well understood by all who read them.

Please have compassion and explain EXACTLY what you mean to say and please, mean what you say - or write, for that matter.

Thank you.

Helena,

Please accept my sincere apologies.

My command of the English language is indeed rather defective and I deeply regret my inability to convey in a clear and intelligible way the content of my messages. No studies worth speaking of, poor education. So, first of all it would be kind of surprising if there was anything meaningful to read here...

I will nonetheless try to write it differently, for the last time probably.
Should my words make as pathetic a reading as those you already had to endure, please simply give up.

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #136 on: November 16, 2010, 11:55:35 AM »
First post in this thread - Nagarjuna's advice to his disciple, the King

There is certainly no need to tell anyone why Nagarjuna's advice to his disciple the King
is relevant to this thread.

Suffice it to say that Nagarjuna doesn't shy away from the use of useful but unpleasant words...

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #137 on: November 16, 2010, 12:21:06 PM »
Second post in this thread - Statement by an ignorant person

While there is no doubt that everyone else sees clearly the meaning of Nagarjuna's advice , I have a very hard time trying to understand it: as a partial remedy for my ignorance, I tried my best to imagine what I would say in a similar situation.

The result is this "statement by an ignorant person". As the title indicates, it has no value in itself.
It is simply an honest attempt to practice this instruction of Nagarjuna: I know it shows a complete lack of knowledge.
I wrote it here hoping that someone would point to me its many defects. The persons doing this would likewise benefit from the exercise, no ?

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #138 on: November 16, 2010, 12:34:12 PM »
Third, Fourth and Fifth posts in this thread - Which advice should we follow ?

Thaimonk had the kindness to post an advice of Trijang Rinpoche, stating:

"If we belong to the lineage of Trijang Rinpoche and/or our Guru's guru is Trijang Rinpoche, I think the above advice is appropriate to remember and follow."

Giving way to the following exchange:

Heartspoon:

Of course. And if we are dharma followers, I think Nagarjuna's advice is appropriate to remember and follow.
And the statement of an ignorant person is not a bad way to help transform one's own mind

Thaimonk:

I'd rather follow Trijang Rinpoche's advice. Sorry.

Heartspoon:

I'd rather follow all those advices...
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 12:37:37 PM by Heartspoon »

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #139 on: November 16, 2010, 12:40:05 PM »
Why I would rather follow all those advices

I think there is absolutely no contradiction between the advices of Nagarjuna and Trijang Rinpoche.
Why choose to follow only one of those instructions and not abide by both of them ?

WisdomBeing

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #140 on: November 16, 2010, 12:50:44 PM »
Heartspoon - you've written 6 posts... and I'm still not really clear what you are saying.

Re saying useful but unpleasant words - i guess unpleasant is subjective. When I speak positively of the Dalai Lama, some people find that unpleasant while i find it useful.

As for the advices of Nagarjuna or Trijang Rinpoche - i think it depends on the context of the advice whether it is applicable or not. If taken out of context, even Buddha's words would not be applicable in a certain situation.

Are you a monk, by the way? That you would put yourself in Nagarjuna's position?

Also the statement of an ignorant person, you said:

Quote
While there is no doubt that everyone else sees clearly the meaning of Nagarjuna's advice , I have a very hard time trying to understand it: as a partial remedy for my ignorance, I tried my best to imagine what I would say in a similar situation.

The result is this "statement by an ignorant person".

Does this mean you wrote that statement?

Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #141 on: November 16, 2010, 12:57:51 PM »
Sectarianism, narrow-mindedness and attachment to one's own interests

When HH the 14th Dalai Lama gave all those teachings speaking of sectarianism, I was very afraid and thought it was high time for me to worry about this aspect of practice or lack of it.

Because it's so difficult for me to understand correctly anything and in particular this topic being so arduous to "digest" I had to spend many hours, kind of pretending I was studying it.

But something strange occured: the more time I spent studying it, the more afraid I was. But I have to confess something that is properly shameful, I know: I was really really afraid for HH the Dalai Lama's disciples fate. Ridiculous, isn't it ?

Now I think that due to being myself so frightened I kind of managed tricking myself in thinking it was the other way round: me observing other beings facing a great peril and not them observing me in dire need of help...

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #142 on: November 16, 2010, 01:08:22 PM »
Heartspoon - you've written 6 posts... and I'm still not really clear what you are saying.

Re saying useful but unpleasant words - i guess unpleasant is subjective. When I speak positively of the Dalai Lama, some people find that unpleasant while i find it useful.

As for the advices of Nagarjuna or Trijang Rinpoche - i think it depends on the context of the advice whether it is applicable or not. If taken out of context, even Buddha's words would not be applicable in a certain situation.

Are you a monk, by the way? That you would put yourself in Nagarjuna's position?

Also the statement of an ignorant person, you said:

Quote
While there is no doubt that everyone else sees clearly the meaning of Nagarjuna's advice , I have a very hard time trying to understand it: as a partial remedy for my ignorance, I tried my best to imagine what I would say in a similar situation.

The result is this "statement by an ignorant person".

Does this mean you wrote that statement?



- I'm no monk, they are not that crazy the monks...
- Foolish I may be, but in this case I simply quoted Nagarjuna, wishing to mention an instruction he gave.
- I wrote that title "statement by an ignorant person". The text itself was originally written in a slightly different order  with an altogether slight different meaning by a very high ranking lama. Being unable to understand it properly I spent many hours studying it and taking it as an instruction proceeded with my own try...

WisdomBeing

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #143 on: November 16, 2010, 01:20:40 PM »

- I'm no monk, they are not that crazy the monks...
- Foolish I may be, but in this case I simply quoted Nagarjuna, wishing to mention an instruction he gave.
- I wrote that title "statement by an ignorant person". The text itself was originally written in a slightly different order  with an altogether slight different meaning by a very high ranking lama. Being unable to understand it properly I spent many hours studying it and taking it as an instruction proceeded with my own try...

Are you Asian by any chance? I'm just curious about your struggle with English.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #144 on: November 16, 2010, 01:26:53 PM »
Kindness of HH the 14th Dalai Lama

I have no doubt that if I spent time trying to write about sectarianism, narrow-mindedness and attachment to one's own interests, it's in great part thanks to the blessings of HH the 14th Dalai Lama. He delivered such forceful teachings on this topic, so useful and at the same time rather unpleasant to hear for me, that I kind of managed to find ways forcing my lazy mind to spend time on this rather uninspiring topic.

As he had been so kind giving us this instruction it would have been quite shameful not  trying to apply his instruction, don't you think ?

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #145 on: November 16, 2010, 01:38:27 PM »

- I'm no monk, they are not that crazy the monks...
- Foolish I may be, but in this case I simply quoted Nagarjuna, wishing to mention an instruction he gave.
- I wrote that title "statement by an ignorant person". The text itself was originally written in a slightly different order  with an altogether slight different meaning by a very high ranking lama. Being unable to understand it properly I spent many hours studying it and taking it as an instruction proceeded with my own try...

Are you Asian by any chance? I'm just curious about your struggle with English.

No, I am not. But English is only my third language.

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #146 on: November 16, 2010, 02:05:57 PM »
What a fool I am - It's so shameful.

After some words more exchanged, I thought I remembered a few lines of teaching.
They went like this:

I am not a partisan of my root guru
I do not hate those who write many things
That are made to appear like a correct path
I hold as a teacher only Him
Whose word possesses reason

And now I really made a fool of myself:

I wished to indicate who wrote it, but I couldn't remember. Even today, after hours thinking about it
my memory is completely silent about it. I learned this verse and some others following it years ago.
I should have remembered the instruction that says one should keep in mind the teachings.
So, big lesson for me:  time to open the books again...
In the meantime if I was hard-pressed to give an anwer, I would say it is probably Je Tsongkhapa who
wrote it. Stay tuned, I'll give the answer soon, I hope...



Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #147 on: November 16, 2010, 02:28:50 PM »
I'm so relieved - I remembered it about half-right

Shamkarapati's "Praise of the Supra-Divine (Devatishayastotra) says:

I am not a partisan of Buddha,
I do not hate Kapila and the others,
I hold as a teacher only
Him whose word possesses reason.

"You should forsake partisanship and hatred for the systems of your own and others' teachers and analyse
which of them provide good and bad explanations. Then, you should adopt only that which shows the means
of attaining the two aims of trainees (high status within cyclic existence and the definite goodness of liberation
and omniscience) and provides correct proofs. The scriptures of the two systems are what are to be analysed
to find which does or does not bear the truth; thus it would not be suitable to cite them as a proof (of their
own truth). Only reasoning distinguishes what is or is not true."

Je Tsongkhapa
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 02:32:14 PM by Heartspoon »

Helena

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #148 on: November 16, 2010, 02:36:31 PM »
Dear Heartspoon,

You must have your reason and motivation to recycle old posts made by yourself.

Your posts in here mirrors your posts back in April 2008, under a thread titled: "Special Pride".

I think even poster named, "A Friend" also asked what you are alluding to at that time - if I am not mistaken.

Now, it is 2010 and you are still using the same words, or so to express what, I am not sure as well.

I am afraid I am neither learned or that enlightened to be of any meaningful assistance.

I come into this space to learn and understand more as well.

However I have noticed that other kind posters be it the most recent ones such as Thai Monk, TK, Beggar, DS Friend, Wisdom Being and even those posters back in 2008 have all done their best to help answer your 'questions' or "point the defects' as you put it.

Whether you choose to acknowledge or accept remains your right, but at least, I am able to recognise some people have been so kind to answer you.

Many a times, I do find myself not just questioning other posters’ intention when they write in this Forum, but also my own.

Over time, there have been posts which seemed to be written purely for the own author’s pleasure or points of views with no regard to benefit anyyone. Hence, sometimes it is hard to tell why we are writing the things we write, or thinking the thoughts we hold. This is why Beggar’s comments resonate with me.

BEGGAR: I think this last point is important to consider, especially in determining whether words are useful or not. At our level, it is quite easy for our minds to trick themselves into thinking that the words we use, or our actions are useful or to benefit someone, when actually they arise out of a personal or selfish place.


Over time, as well, I have discovered that there are many high level practitioners here. And I do not mean those who just recite from scriptures and texts. I mean, those who have actually gone through extensive training and retreats such as TK.

Hence, this space has given me a lot of education, information and I do appreciate that very much.

For example, I find Thai Monk’s composition below most profound. If one takes the time to explore each line, so much can be learnt. I, for one, cannot compose something like this for sure. It takes years of study and understanding of the essence of the teachings, I would imagine.

FROM THAI MONK:

you surpass all the teachers,
your wisdom is greater than theirs,
you have no klesas to overcome,
hence your view is supreme

Your view of those who possess reason or not
is unbiased since you have no karmas that bind,
therefore you need no teacher, as you hear
what you deem as reason and all others are not,

You need no guru, as only those that speak with your
reason you hold.
Hence the tantras become difficult as devotion is not necessary,
all the great masters who hold their gurus supreme, must rewrite the texts.
Ashvagosha, Atisha, Tsongkapa, Shantideva all would follow not a guru
to enlightenment and their devotions are wrong.
Woe to the student who need no guru, such is a time as predicted
in the kaliyuga.


Suffice to say, I do sincerely believe that the Guru holds the key to one’s ultimate realization.

I do not fear for the Dalai Lama’s disciples. In fact, I am relieved that they all have His Holiness to guide them and help them. Otherwise, they would be lost.

That does not mean that I agree with the ban though.

I think everyone who is practicing Dharma sincerely would be lost if they did not have a Guru who would guide and help them.

Lay people have not invested the time and effort in learning and acquiring those skills in spiritual practice. The Gurus have.

Lay people do not have the access to secret teachings that have been passed down from one guru to another through precious oral transmissions. The Gurus have.

So, thank goodness, for the Gurus – otherwise, we would be surely lost and left to fend for ourselves.

At the very highest level, Dorje Shugden is Wisdom personified and HH Dalai Lama is Compassion personified.

We need both method and wisdom to achieve Enlightenment.

Our lay perception will choose what it wants to believe, as it always had. That’s the nature of samsara.

But if we do heed the advice and guidance of our Gurus, then at least, we have a chance to be rid of this “samsaric curse”.

How we will fare in our attainments will depend on how well we keep our vows, practice and samayas. Our own actions will speak for us because our results will show itself from there.

Nagarjuna expounded the Buddha’s teaching through the logic of the India of his time. Through the process of reductio ad absurdum he negated all truths without affirming any truth.

By affirming that all things are empty, he was able to negate both existence and non-existence without contradiction. The great Sun-lun master, Chi-tsang wrote,

“Originally there was nothing to affirm and there is not now anything to negate.”

Wish you well in your practice and a very good day.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 02:46:45 PM by Helena »
Helena

Heartspoon

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Re: Dalai Lama Bashing
« Reply #149 on: November 16, 2010, 02:44:05 PM »
Dear Helena,

Unfortunately for him, Thaimonk kind of "refuted" the teaching of Je Tsongkhapa mentioned in my last post.
Take one or two minutes and read this wonderful teaching of Je Tsongkhapa, then read again the so-called
"refutation" of Thaimonk and tell me what are your thoughts about it.

For the time being, I will follow the guidance of Je Tsongkhapa and try to learn as much as possible from
Thaimonk...