Author Topic: Shugden Arising As A Yidam  (Read 43590 times)

LosangKhyentse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 850
  • WORLD PEACE PROTECTOR DORJE SHUGDEN
Shugden Arising As A Yidam
« on: August 20, 2010, 11:18:59 AM »
If any of the Oracles of Dorje Shugden recognizes a tulku, I will trust and believe all the way. If there was no use for the Tulku system, Dorje Shugden would not entertain any inquiries. Also if the Tulku system was damaging, then of course, Dorje Shugden would not recognize any Tulkus.

The Tulku system is so very important within Tibetan Buddhism in general and within the Gelug system. We will die, we will reincarnate and we will take rebirth. So if we practice the tantras correctly, one of the side benefits is that we can control our rebirth. So two and two makes four. If we can take charge of our rebirth, then why not Tulkus.

Within Tulkus, there are many level of attainments also. Their ranks or height of their thrones do not always indicate their attainments. How far a tulku has progressed on the path in their previous lives is how much control they will have over their rebirths.

I for one, am all for the Tulku system which is alive, active and thriving. Many great Tulkus are able to return, be recognized and continue their work. It is very important for the Dorje Shugden lineage tulkus to return. It proves to everyone clearly that practicing Dorje Shugden does not bring negative states of rebirth. How can the worship of a Buddha such as Dorje Shugden bring damage in any way.

When we worship Dorje Shugden, we are worshipping Manjushri. Since we are worshipping Manjushri, we are connecting to all the matured wisdom of all Buddhas.  Therefore the 7 limbs offered to Dorje Shugden is equal to offering the 7 limbs to all the Buddhas of the ten directions and three times. It is incredible merits just to offer one light or a single stick of  incense to Dorje Shugden.

Easily from Dorje Shugden's side, we can say he is a yidam. But from the path of presentation of his puja text, he is propitiated as protector. It would be wonderful if Dorje Shugden can be used as a Yidam with the full generation and completion stages of the highest yoga tantra included within his practice. It would require that we request Dorje Shugden via the oracles to give such text or a highly accomplished level lama can compose one such as Pabongka Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, or Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal. It would be the first text of it's kind and highly blessed as the lineage is short and hence making it quick in attainments. I wish very much a text and practice for Dorje Shugden to be practiced as a yidam would arise. I would IMMEDIATELY engage in the practice and await the festival of attainments to be gained in order to benefit others to happen.

tk

crazycloud

  • Guest
Re: Shugden Arising As A Yidam
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2010, 09:51:15 PM »
If any of the Oracles of Dorje Shugden recognizes a tulku, I will trust and believe all the way. If there was no use for the Tulku system, Dorje Shugden would not entertain any inquiries. Also if the Tulku system was damaging, then of course, Dorje Shugden would not recognize any Tulkus.

The Tulku system is so very important within Tibetan Buddhism in general and within the Gelug system. We will die, we will reincarnate and we will take rebirth. So if we practice the tantras correctly, one of the side benefits is that we can control our rebirth. So two and two makes four. If we can take charge of our rebirth, then why not Tulkus.

Within Tulkus, there are many level of attainments also. Their ranks or height of their thrones do not always indicate their attainments. How far a tulku has progressed on the path in their previous lives is how much control they will have over their rebirths.

I for one, am all for the Tulku system which is alive, active and thriving. Many great Tulkus are able to return, be recognized and continue their work. It is very important for the Dorje Shugden lineage tulkus to return. It proves to everyone clearly that practicing Dorje Shugden does not bring negative states of rebirth. How can the worship of a Buddha such as Dorje Shugden bring damage in any way.

When we worship Dorje Shugden, we are worshipping Manjushri. Since we are worshipping Manjushri, we are connecting to all the matured wisdom of all Buddhas.  Therefore the 7 limbs offered to Dorje Shugden is equal to offering the 7 limbs to all the Buddhas of the ten directions and three times. It is incredible merits just to offer one light or a single stick of  incense to Dorje Shugden.

Easily from Dorje Shugden's side, we can say he is a yidam. But from the path of presentation of his puja text, he is propitiated as protector. It would be wonderful if Dorje Shugden can be used as a Yidam with the full generation and completion stages of the highest yoga tantra included within his practice. It would require that we request Dorje Shugden via the oracles to give such text or a highly accomplished level lama can compose one such as Pabongka Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, or Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal. It would be the first text of it's kind and highly blessed as the lineage is short and hence making it quick in attainments. I wish very much a text and practice for Dorje Shugden to be practiced as a yidam would arise. I would IMMEDIATELY engage in the practice and await the festival of attainments to be gained in order to benefit others to happen.

tk

This would be entirely unnecessary.

Doje Shugden alredy exists as a Yidam, he's called Je Tsongkhapa. There are many self generation sadhanas already composed.

WisdomBeing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2096
    • Add me to your facebook!
Re: Shugden Arising As A Yidam
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2010, 06:09:50 AM »

This would be entirely unnecessary.

Doje Shugden alredy exists as a Yidam, he's called Je Tsongkhapa. There are many self generation sadhanas already composed.

Since Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being on his own, surely he can also exist as a yidam?  Like Yamantaka - who i believe exists as a yidam as well as a protector?
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

WisdomBeing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2096
    • Add me to your facebook!
Re: Shugden Arising As A Yidam
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2010, 06:20:53 AM »
If any of the Oracles of Dorje Shugden recognizes a tulku, I will trust and believe all the way. If there was no use for the Tulku system, Dorje Shugden would not entertain any inquiries. Also if the Tulku system was damaging, then of course, Dorje Shugden would not recognize any Tulkus.

The Tulku system is so very important within Tibetan Buddhism in general and within the Gelug system. We will die, we will reincarnate and we will take rebirth. So if we practice the tantras correctly, one of the side benefits is that we can control our rebirth. So two and two makes four. If we can take charge of our rebirth, then why not Tulkus.

Within Tulkus, there are many level of attainments also. Their ranks or height of their thrones do not always indicate their attainments. How far a tulku has progressed on the path in their previous lives is how much control they will have over their rebirths.

I for one, am all for the Tulku system which is alive, active and thriving. Many great Tulkus are able to return, be recognized and continue their work. It is very important for the Dorje Shugden lineage tulkus to return. It proves to everyone clearly that practicing Dorje Shugden does not bring negative states of rebirth. How can the worship of a Buddha such as Dorje Shugden bring damage in any way.

When we worship Dorje Shugden, we are worshipping Manjushri. Since we are worshipping Manjushri, we are connecting to all the matured wisdom of all Buddhas.  Therefore the 7 limbs offered to Dorje Shugden is equal to offering the 7 limbs to all the Buddhas of the ten directions and three times. It is incredible merits just to offer one light or a single stick of  incense to Dorje Shugden.

Easily from Dorje Shugden's side, we can say he is a yidam. But from the path of presentation of his puja text, he is propitiated as protector. It would be wonderful if Dorje Shugden can be used as a Yidam with the full generation and completion stages of the highest yoga tantra included within his practice. It would require that we request Dorje Shugden via the oracles to give such text or a highly accomplished level lama can compose one such as Pabongka Rinpoche, Gangchen Rinpoche, Yongyal Rinpoche, or Gaden Trisur Lungrik Namgyal. It would be the first text of it's kind and highly blessed as the lineage is short and hence making it quick in attainments. I wish very much a text and practice for Dorje Shugden to be practiced as a yidam would arise. I would IMMEDIATELY engage in the practice and await the festival of attainments to be gained in order to benefit others to happen.

tk

I agree re if the tulku system was redundant, Dorje Shugden would not recognise tulkus via the oracle. I read that the oracular pronouncements are also confirmed by high Lamas, so to me, there seems to be check and balance.

The fact that tulkus are recognised continuously means that the tulkus play an important role and keep coming back to continue their previous lives' work. If we do not believe in the tulkus recognised by Dorje Shugden, it implies that we don't believe Dorje Shugden or the high Lamas who confirmed their recognition either.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

thaimonk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Shugden Arising As A Yidam
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2010, 09:10:53 AM »


This would be entirely unnecessary.

Doje Shugden alredy exists as a Yidam, he's called Je Tsongkhapa. There are many self generation sadhanas already composed.

This would be unnecessary or not is not up to you or me. It is a request. Let Dulzin himself decide if it is unnecessary or necessary when the request is made. Maybe now a form of Dorje Shugden as a yidam would be necessary. Je Tsongkpa as a yidam does not have generation and completion stages and it is one of the lower tantras. So theoretically not able to bring us to enlightenment in one short lifetime. The lower tantras are practiced to remove immediate obstacles to enlightenment such as Medicine Buddha for disease, White Manjushri for quick wisdom, Vajrapani for removing obstacles. But then the higher tantras must be engaged for actual enlightenment.

Yamantaka, red manjushri, black Manjushri, White Manjushri, 13-deity  Yamantaka, Yellow Manjushri exists. There are so many forms of Manjushri as a Yidam. They appear as an when needed. So nothing wrong if Manjushri Dorje Shugden appears as a full fledged annuttara tantra Yidam. If I have great faith in Dorje Shugden and he appears as a Yidam,  I would practice him above other yidams immediately.

Other great tantric texts have been written by qualified masters, so this would require such a master. As these sadhanas are not scholastic pieces of work, they need someone of the highest calibre to write them. Who can write, I haven't any idea. But it would be great if Dulzin himself composes it through his oracles. Just like his divination text was composed through the oracle. Many people have recieved Avalokitesvara initiation while Dorje Shugden was in trance through Choyang Dulzin Kuten.

Yes, Yamantaka exists both as a yidam and protector. He can be worshipped/propitiated as both or either. So why not Shugden. Four Face Mahakala and Kalarupa are emanations of Manjushri also. There is no limit to Manjushri's emanations. As time progresses and there is a need, I am sure the compassionate Manjushri will appear in so many new forms unheard of . It is not for us to say yay or nay. Just rejoice.

It is up to others if they wish to practice Shugden as a yidam or not. But no one has the right to say right or wrong.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 09:13:50 AM by thaimonk »

Helena

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 653
    • Email
Re: Shugden Arising As A Yidam
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2010, 01:50:07 PM »
My personal opinion is that any Enlightened Being / Buddha can appear as whatever they deem fit. Because there is simply no limit to what they can do or choose to emanate as.

The only limitation that exists is our perception.

I would also imagine that the existence great texts and scriptures should not stop other high great Lamas to stop composing more great texts and scriptures. Be it self generation sadhanas or not.

Why?

Because there is no limit to the delusions and varying needs of sentient beings.

As time passes on, the needs and desires of sentient beings also evolve.

If the newly composed texts serve to help a certain understand much easier or deeper, then that itself warrants the benefits of such compositions.

After all, all the highly attained Lamas are essentially the Tulkus and they are the recent incarnations of the great Masters who once composed all the texts of the past that we still use today. The Masters are of the same mental continuum of their past reincarnations. So, in this respect, I do not see what is wrong or different about this.

If these great Masters choose to compose new texts for the generations of practitioners tomorrow, then it is a very good thing. 

As long as space remains and sentient beings remain, it is always necessary to find new ways and as many ways to help. Even if it requires a great Lama to compose new texts.

The point is to help as many people as possible. So, it may as well be very necessary.

Helena

LosangKhyentse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 850
  • WORLD PEACE PROTECTOR DORJE SHUGDEN
Re: Shugden Arising As A Yidam
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2010, 03:42:53 PM »
My personal opinion is that any Enlightened Being / Buddha can appear as whatever they deem fit. Because there is simply no limit to what they can do or choose to emanate as.

The only limitation that exists is our perception.

I would also imagine that the existence great texts and scriptures should not stop other high great Lamas to stop composing more great texts and scriptures. Be it self generation sadhanas or not.

Why?

Because there is no limit to the delusions and varying needs of sentient beings.

As time passes on, the needs and desires of sentient beings also evolve.

If the newly composed texts serve to help a certain understand much easier or deeper, then that itself warrants the benefits of such compositions.

After all, all the highly attained Lamas are essentially the Tulkus and they are the recent incarnations of the great Masters who once composed all the texts of the past that we still use today. The Masters are of the same mental continuum of their past reincarnations. So, in this respect, I do not see what is wrong or different about this.

If these great Masters choose to compose new texts for the generations of practitioners tomorrow, then it is a very good thing. 

As long as space remains and sentient beings remain, it is always necessary to find new ways and as many ways to help. Even if it requires a great Lama to compose new texts.

The point is to help as many people as possible. So, it may as well be very necessary.



Helena,

I like what you said and what you wrote. You really are even minded and think through things. I can see some of the things you don't agree, yet you are open and willing to consider, share and learn. Wonderful energy you bring to this space.

tk

honeydakini

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
Re: Shugden Arising As A Yidam
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2010, 09:40:29 PM »
Quote from: WisdomBeing
Since Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being on his own, surely he can also exist as a yidam?  Like Yamantaka - who i believe exists as a yidam as well as a protector?


To say that it is not necessary for DS to arise as a yidam is like saying that it is not "necessary" for Yamantaka to manifest as both a protector and Yidam. As Buddhas, they emanate in whatever form is necessary for the time and practitioners.

So of course DS can exist as a yidam, being a fully enlightened being. On his side, his mind is the same enlightened state whether we propitiate him as a protector or as a yidam. It is the difference in how we meditate upon him that "determines" if he is a yidam or a protector to us.

DS practice is of course just as holy and beneficial as Manjushri and Yamantaka's practice but is considered more "effective" because DS has manifested especially to counter the obstacles of this time and in that way is karmically "closer" to us.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 12:24:14 AM by beggar »

DSFriend

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
Re: Shugden Arising As A Yidam
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2010, 10:34:48 PM »


This would be entirely unnecessary.

Doje Shugden alredy exists as a Yidam, he's called Je Tsongkhapa. There are many self generation sadhanas already composed.

This would be unnecessary or not is not up to you or me. It is a request. Let Dulzin himself decide if it is unnecessary or necessary when the request is made. Maybe now a form of Dorje Shugden as a yidam would be necessary. Je Tsongkpa as a yidam does not have generation and completion stages and it is one of the lower tantras. So theoretically not able to bring us to enlightenment in one short lifetime. The lower tantras are practiced to remove immediate obstacles to enlightenment such as Medicine Buddha for disease, White Manjushri for quick wisdom, Vajrapani for removing obstacles. But then the higher tantras must be engaged for actual enlightenment.

Yamantaka, red manjushri, black Manjushri, White Manjushri, 13-deity  Yamantaka, Yellow Manjushri exists. There are so many forms of Manjushri as a Yidam. They appear as an when needed. So nothing wrong if Manjushri Dorje Shugden appears as a full fledged annuttara tantra Yidam. If I have great faith in Dorje Shugden and he appears as a Yidam,  I would practice him above other yidams immediately.

Other great tantric texts have been written by qualified masters, so this would require such a master. As these sadhanas are not scholastic pieces of work, they need someone of the highest calibre to write them. Who can write, I haven't any idea. But it would be great if Dulzin himself composes it through his oracles. Just like his divination text was composed through the oracle. Many people have recieved Avalokitesvara initiation while Dorje Shugden was in trance through Choyang Dulzin Kuten.

Yes, Yamantaka exists both as a yidam and protector. He can be worshipped/propitiated as both or either. So why not Shugden. Four Face Mahakala and Kalarupa are emanations of Manjushri also. There is no limit to Manjushri's emanations. As time progresses and there is a need, I am sure the compassionate Manjushri will appear in so many new forms unheard of . It is not for us to say yay or nay. Just rejoice.

It is up to others if they wish to practice Shugden as a yidam or not. But no one has the right to say right or wrong.



Dear Thaimonk
It never occurred to me that this is possible,...meaning we can actually request Dorje Shugden to appear as a Yidam. Now that you got me thinking along these lines,here are my thoughts...

Dorje Shugden is most beneficial as a Dharma Protector for us due to him manifesting specifically for this period of time, and karma then wouldn't his practice as a YIDAM (if he chose to appear in this form)  be just as swift in us achieving attainments towards enlightenment?!


beggar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 861
Re: Shugden Arising As A Yidam
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2010, 12:29:00 AM »

Dorje Shugden is most beneficial as a Dharma Protector for us due to him manifesting specifically for this period of time, and karma then wouldn't his practice as a YIDAM (if he chose to appear in this form)  be just as swift in us achieving attainments towards enlightenment?!



Sure thing. Do read the good recent sharing of teachings from honeydakini below which is about create a connection to WISDOM: the most necessary method for today's ailments, problems and sufferings.

Here you go. Time to top up on the wisdom merits everyone!
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=903.0

triesa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 609
Re: Shugden Arising As A Yidam
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2010, 06:58:46 AM »
My personal opinion is that any Enlightened Being / Buddha can appear as whatever they deem fit. Because there is simply no limit to what they can do or choose to emanate as.

The only limitation that exists is our perception.

I would also imagine that the existence great texts and scriptures should not stop other high great Lamas to stop composing more great texts and scriptures. Be it self generation sadhanas or not.

Why?

Because there is no limit to the delusions and varying needs of sentient beings.

As time passes on, the needs and desires of sentient beings also evolve.

If the newly composed texts serve to help a certain understand much easier or deeper, then that itself warrants the benefits of such compositions.

After all, all the highly attained Lamas are essentially the Tulkus and they are the recent incarnations of the great Masters who once composed all the texts of the past that we still use today. The Masters are of the same mental continuum of their past reincarnations. So, in this respect, I do not see what is wrong or different about this.

If these great Masters choose to compose new texts for the generations of practitioners tomorrow, then it is a very good thing. 

As long as space remains and sentient beings remain, it is always necessary to find new ways and as many ways to help. Even if it requires a great Lama to compose new texts.

The point is to help as many people as possible. So, it may as well be very necessary.



Helena,

I like what you said and what you wrote. You really are even minded and think through things. I can see some of the things you don't agree, yet you are open and willing to consider, share and learn. Wonderful energy you bring to this space.

tk


I agree with you Helena. Dorje Shugden is manifested especially for this degenerated age. I reckon for those who said we do not need any more texts to be composed for this time and in the future is like saying, we do not need any research on new medicine or drugs to cure the ever evolving viruses that we face in the world today.

What cure the diseases in the past may not work efficiently now as the viruses continuously mutate to try to survive and  harm us. It is like our ego, delusions, ignorance, and self cherishing mind that keep mutating to make us sink deeper into the viscious cycle of the 6 realms.

So if there is such a need for a new text to be composed for this age as it deems fit by Dorje Shugden, the same mind continuum of Wisdom Manjushri,  for the practice by today's practitioners, I do not see why not.

Everyone wants more effective medication to cure our sickness and diseases FAST. A new medicine or drug made specially for today's viruses is like a new holy text/sadhana composed to bring realization faster at this degenerated age.

I am all for it.

Triesa.

Big Uncle

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1995
Re: Shugden Arising As A Yidam
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2010, 08:43:22 PM »
Wow! This is really interesting proposition for our beloved Protector. Since he is a fully enlightened Protector, that means he can also be technically be propitiated as a yidam. On top of that, since he is in a worldly form, that means efficacy and blessings would be heightened I think.

I don't think there are any other Yidam that are in a worldly form and his karmic affinity would be much stronger than any Yidams in their enlightened form. Well, that is what I am guessing. Hence, having Dorje Shugden as a Yidam would mean that spiritual attainments would come quicker than normal. I am really excited about this possible prospect. I really hope some attained Lama will compose this.  :D

Helena

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 653
    • Email
Re: Shugden Arising As A Yidam
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2010, 02:47:24 PM »
I can totally see your point, Big Uncle.

It is precisely because of our immense degeneration that we have a karmic affinity with Dorje Shugden. If we were not so degenerated, we would be able to embrace any path. We would not need such a powerful and wrathful Protector. His powerful wrath is to counter our deep-seated degeneration.

It goes to show how much we have regressed as a species and a society.

With Dorje Shugden arising as a Yidam, we would be receiving the swiftest aid to gain ultimate Enlightenment.

Because Dorje Shugden is so quick, our path to realisation would also be expedited.

It seems in our degenerate times, whereby degeneration occurs at such alarming rate/speed, we do need the swiftest form of transformation - the express route to Enlightenment.

 And if Dorje Shugden can do that for us - I would certainly welcome that with open arms and embrace it in a heart beat.

I do not want to waste any more time and stay in Samsara.

Any time spent trapped in Samsara is a second too long!
Helena

lightning

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 314
Re: Shugden Arising As A Yidam
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2010, 05:12:40 AM »
In terms of efficacy as highest yoga tantra yidam, the best one would be the Solitary Yamantaka followed by 13 deities Yamantaka due to difference in the oral instructions as It has complete and clear instructions on illusion (father tantra) and clear light (mother tantra), holding a human impale on stick can eradicate 5 henious sins etc. in the saddhana itself. Without the highest yoga tantra yidams like Yamantaka, Heruka, Guhyasamaja etc., the empowerment of protectors would not be given expect Vaisravana(Normally comes with Vajrapani empowerment) Without the Yidams, the protectors would not respond to your wishes.

Whereas Dorje Shugden would be the uncommon protector for Gelupa teachings and He is considered the most effective Dharma protector. But of course the affinity between the protectors and the yogis varies. There is difference between the functions, the effect and the results for every Yidam that you practise.

In my own opinion, if one would take Dorje Shugden as Yidam, one will be guarded by Dorje Shugden closer with better protection. He would gives warning on possible pit holes beforehand. alike a mother guarding the only child. Of course, I agreed that His practice would bring swift attainments, but the only concern is that one must maintain pure samaya after taking up Dorje Shugden empowerment.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 12:10:55 AM by lightning »

Helena

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 653
    • Email
Re: Shugden Arising As A Yidam
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2010, 09:22:49 AM »
This is not directed at Lightning per say, but he/she did bring up a good point about keeping good samaya.

My opinion is that keeping good samaya is crucial and essential for all practices. I dare say, it is the key to all practices. Hence, the stress on Guru Devotion.

Without good samayas, there will be nothing.

Helena