Author Topic: "Our relationship is one of mutual support, mutual respect and love..."  (Read 8065 times)

DharmaDefender

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Hi,

I just wanted to share this article with everyone: (http://newkadampatruth.wordpress.com/2010/08/03/what-is-the-relationship-between-the-nkt-and-tibetan-dorje-shugden-practitioners/)

Clearly written, it reads like an even-handed explanation of the NKT position, as well as Geshe-la's. There is also advice in there that every practitioner (whether from their tradition or not) can follow. What I particularly liked was, within the comments section, the following quote:

Quote
“We don’t need to mix our traditions. Each tradition has its own uncommon good qualities, and it is important not to lose these. We should concentrate on our own tradition and maintain the good qualities of our tradition, but we should always keep good relations with each other and never argue or criticize each other. What I would like to request is that we should improve our own traditions while maintaining good relations with each other.” (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, An Interview With Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Tricycle: the Buddhist Review, No. 27, Spring 1998, p. 76)


I also really like how much love and respect the students have shown to Geshe-la, since the foundation for higher tantric practices is Guru Devotion.

Quote
However, Geshe Kelsang has a far-reaching, compassionate vision and, as a direct result of his wisdom, skill and courage, hundreds of thousands of people (and millions of people potentially) who would never have met these Buddhist teachings now have access to them and are now practicing Je Tsongkhapa’s clear and powerful Buddha Dharma through the NKT every day.


I just feel like in general, they defend their lama very well, by writing as logically as Geshe-la has explained things.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 04:23:51 PM by DharmaDefender »

WisdomBeing

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Re: "Our relationship is one of mutual support, mutual respect and love..."
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2010, 08:24:10 AM »
Hi DharmaD,

Thanks for this article - i enjoyed it. I don't know why some people are so critical of NKT. If we are NKT members, then we accept the rules and regulations of that tradition and abide by them. Whatever disagreements should be aired within the organisation. It is not for anyone to criticise NKT because what do outsiders know anyway - if we don't like the rules then we don't join. Simple really! And if insiders have a gripe, they should resolve it within the organisation (same across the board for all organisations - NKT or not).

Anyway, i'm always singing my peace and harmony and let's love everyone song....and always will...


Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

beggar

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Re: "Our relationship is one of mutual support, mutual respect and love..."
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2010, 02:05:41 PM »
DharmaDefender
you are shining big beams of light into the world - what a great article! You sure are doing what your name means! I, like many others, have huge respect for Geshe Kelsang and what he is creating all over the world. A lot to rejoice in, especially when we consider these degenerate times.

The thing to note of this article is the very strong message that the teachings are always pure and real and never detract from Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings. (Of course! Why would they?) But it is also important that we realise that the method of practice and teaching will be different across different centres and people and countries. We have to move with the times, folks! The purists who feel that things must be exactly as they are in the monasteries cannot be right, simply because conditions of practice are so vastly different between one place and another. For example, NKT don't incorporate  the tulku system in their organisation. This doesn't mean it doesn't exist but by Geshe-la's wisdom, he probably understood that it wouldn't have served his students who come from very different backgrounds. So he found another skilful method instead which would have suited their communities better.

This is what is so special about our teachers - they could teach in one way in their monasteries and another way when they come out to teach us lay, western-minded students. Has anyone seen that great life-documentary about Dzongsar Kyentse? Ah, there is a beautiful contrast there when you see him watching the world cup with his students, and how he is received by the people in Bhutan. here it is! http://wordsofmyperfectteacher.com/

But most important, we MUST realise how important it is not to criticise other teachers and their methods because we just don't know what their students / communities / countries are like. The teachers are all employing different methods to teach and bring dharma firmly into the lives of their students. Far be it for us to tell them how it should or should not be done! I am saying this also because I have met many people from across many traditions who make comments on how a teacher should or shouldn't act and how it is in the monasteries (and therefore it should be that way for us too) and etc
How tiring to hear them going on and on and on about how the lamas should behave and teacher.

This article makes it clear why different approaches and methods are absolutely necessary for dharma to grow more strongly in the lives of people everywhere. Thanks DharmaD! I think many more people should read this.

yours, beggar

pgdharma

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Re: "Our relationship is one of mutual support, mutual respect and love..."
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2010, 02:26:26 PM »
Quote:

“We don’t need to mix our traditions. Each tradition has its own uncommon good qualities, and it is important not to lose these. We should concentrate on our own tradition and maintain the good qualities of our tradition, but we should always keep good relations with each other and never argue or criticize each other. What I would like to request is that we should improve our own traditions while maintaining good relations with each other.” (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, An Interview With Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Tricycle: the Buddhist Review, No. 27, Spring 1998, p. 76)

Thanks for this article. To maintain the good lineage and qualities of our tradition is crucial at this degenerate age. We have to be in harmony with our dharma brothers and sisters and not to criticize or condemn other Gurus or Centers as we do not know what methods and approached  others use.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 05:41:12 PM by DSFriend »

DharmaDefender

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Re: "Our relationship is one of mutual support, mutual respect and love..."
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2010, 05:31:50 PM »
DharmaDefender
you are shining big beams of light into the world - what a great article! You sure are doing what your name means! I, like many others, have huge respect for Geshe Kelsang and what he is creating all over the world. A lot to rejoice in, especially when we consider these degenerate times.

The thing to note of this article is the very strong message that the teachings are always pure and real and never detract from Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings. (Of course! Why would they?) But it is also important that we realise that the method of practice and teaching will be different across different centres and people and countries. We have to move with the times, folks! The purists who feel that things must be exactly as they are in the monasteries cannot be right, simply because conditions of practice are so vastly different between one place and another. For example, NKT don't incorporate  the tulku system in their organisation. This doesn't mean it doesn't exist but by Geshe-la's wisdom, he probably understood that it wouldn't have served his students who come from very different backgrounds. So he found another skilful method instead which would have suited their communities better.

This is what is so special about our teachers - they could teach in one way in their monasteries and another way when they come out to teach us lay, western-minded students. Has anyone seen that great life-documentary about Dzongsar Kyentse? Ah, there is a beautiful contrast there when you see him watching the world cup with his students, and how he is received by the people in Bhutan. here it is! http://wordsofmyperfectteacher.com/

But most important, we MUST realise how important it is not to criticise other teachers and their methods because we just don't know what their students / communities / countries are like. The teachers are all employing different methods to teach and bring dharma firmly into the lives of their students. Far be it for us to tell them how it should or should not be done! I am saying this also because I have met many people from across many traditions who make comments on how a teacher should or shouldn't act and how it is in the monasteries (and therefore it should be that way for us too) and etc
How tiring to hear them going on and on and on about how the lamas should behave and teacher.

This article makes it clear why different approaches and methods are absolutely necessary for dharma to grow more strongly in the lives of people everywhere. Thanks DharmaD! I think many more people should read this.

yours, beggar


Ahem - well, I do try! (HA!)

That is quite an important message and one that I felt was unwavering throughout the whole article. They were firm but yet polite and fair - to be honest, I was blown away by the article.

I've seen that documentary you mentioned, yeah it's well-worth a watch. It goes a long way to clearing up misconceptions people have of Guru Devotion. I mean, just reading the 50 Verses without guidance, I first thought it stung of Buddhist fundamentalism that I couldn't wear aftershave, couldn't step on my guru's shadow, etc. Came across like mild slavery but with a bit of guidance, you realise it's not so much about the action itself but about the mind training you get from following the rules.

That was my sentiment exactly when it came to the criticising. Our delusions are so great, and realisations are so few - can we really comment on the methods of lamas? How many stories have we heard of highly attained beings emanating as being a wee bit mental for their methods, but then later revealing themselves to become great mahasiddhas? The only way we can 'judge' (awful word) the method of a lama is by judging his / her results (i.e. by looking at his students). If just some students remain a bunch of quarrelsome, petty people but others transform into compassionate and kind people, then is it the fault of the lama and a flaw in his / her methods, or the fault of the quarrelsome, petty students who didn't take the teacher's advice fully to heart?

What Wisdom Being said about resolving issues within the organisation, I feel like that's very relevant. At the end of the day, you don't like the rules and you can't take the training, fine - leave. But as you're leaving, I think some of those closing the door behind them could've shown a little kindness, and respected the fact other people will still find the dharma through NKT. I don't think they should have set out to try and destroy them. If they wanted to hurt the NKT image just because they'd come across a few nasty people in the organisation, deeper contemplation would have shown them that perhaps it was just their individual experience...and if they'd looked at the rest of the students, they would've seen everyone else was lovely and great.

So really, it comes down to us as individuals practising Dharma, and representing our teacher well. We don't know who is going to do what in the future, so the best defence is a good offence, aye? And our best offence is a pro-active attitude in making sure no one is ever motivated enough to set up an anti-our-organisation site, by being good people. I hardly doubt Geshe-la's got the time to defend himself against all these...monkeys.

Helena

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Re: "Our relationship is one of mutual support, mutual respect and love..."
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2010, 05:34:36 PM »
Thank you so much, DD - this is a very good article!

These are the words that struck me most of all -

 "...but we should always keep good relations with each other and never argue or criticize each other. What I would like to request is that we should improve our own traditions while maintaining good relations with each other.”

I would imagine with GKG being so great and wonderful, his students would reflect the remarkable qualities of his teachings and especially, these very words above.

I have always admired GKG's books. I love them and have loads of them. His books are written very well and clearly.

Though I am not his student, but I have the highest regard for Geshe-la and what Geshe-la has done in establishing the Dharma roots in the West.

May Geshe-la live long, be well and healthy.

May all his students be shining examples and extensions of this great master.



Helena

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Re: "Our relationship is one of mutual support, mutual respect and love..."
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2010, 05:53:57 PM »
Thank you so much, DD - this is a very good article!

These are the words that struck me most of all -

 "...but we should always keep good relations with each other and never argue or criticize each other. What I would like to request is that we should improve our own traditions while maintaining good relations with each other.”

I would imagine with GKG being so great and wonderful, his students would reflect the remarkable qualities of his teachings and especially, these very words above.

I have always admired GKG's books. I love them and have loads of them. His books are written very well and clearly.

Though I am not his student, but I have the highest regard for Geshe-la and what Geshe-la has done in establishing the Dharma roots in the West.

May Geshe-la live long, be well and healthy.

May all his students be shining examples and extensions of this great master.


RE: GKG being so great and wonderful, his students would reflect the remarkable qualities of his teachings

Unfortunately, not ALL of his students would reflect the remarkable qualities of his teachings. It's not a criticism, but it is the truth, same with any Guru in this world - there bound to be some students who do not reflect well of their teachers, but at least THEY TRY to practice in some ways.

Hence, if there are deviant students, it's not the fault of the teachers, but it just shows how compassionate the teachers are to take on the responsibility of 'overseeing' and guiding the students in the Dharma path. I respect someone like Geshe-la very much because he has so many students to take care of, and his organisation is bringing Dharma to many despite bad press. Some people who have left the organisation created various smear sites to attack NKT. So much pressure yet Geshe-la remain steadfast.




WisdomBeing

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Re: "Our relationship is one of mutual support, mutual respect and love..."
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2010, 08:59:06 AM »
it is also important that we realise that the method of practice and teaching will be different across different centres and people and countries. We have to move with the times, folks! The purists who feel that things must be exactly as they are in the monasteries cannot be right, simply because conditions of practice are so vastly different between one place and another. For example, NKT don't incorporate  the tulku system in their organisation. This doesn't mean it doesn't exist but by Geshe-la's wisdom, he probably understood that it wouldn't have served his students who come from very different backgrounds. So he found another skilful method instead which would have suited their communities better.



Hi Beggar,

Dharma teachers really have such a tough time out of the monastery, teaching lay people. Lay people so often have different expectations of Dharma teachers and judge them so harshly when we have no right to. We haven't studied in the monasteries, we haven't studied the Dharma texts that many teachers have, but yet we often criticise what the Dharma teacher should do or shouldn't do. Or we see the students of a Dharma teacher acting up and we blame the Dharma teacher for it. But these Masters have a bigger picture in mind. (oh yes - there's a bigger picture for everything!) I have read that some Gurus keep people who are most difficult near to them because they need the Dharma more.

I found the story on Geshe Sopa Rinpoche in this article interesting (Advice from Lama Zopa for Dealing with Difficult People):

http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=261

Happy reading...

Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being