Author Topic: Even Handed Information  (Read 24729 times)

iloveds

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2010, 10:19:33 PM »
How difficult indeed it must be for Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche to make this decision to disrobe. But what to do... look at what you would represent as the main practicing Gelug Rinpoche of DS.

Immediately the world press will label you as the head of all things DS. Those who are demonstrating with their "compassionate" form of action. Whether they are positive or negative is besides  the point that in the end the world will see Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche as the main contender in the ring up against HHDL and TGIE.

That is just too deeply ingrained right now the roots of all parties and opens up a drama in Dharma which doesn't do anybody justice. I support this decision to disrobe, as its the best thing to do at this time.

At least when practice is no longer an issue Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche will have come of age to begin spreading DS like wildfire, as no doubt many others are doing secretly and quietly.

I pray I have enough years in me to see this come to fruition in this life. Its as i read earlier, its likened to the berlin wall coming down, which i remember watching on television as a little kid. At that time i didn't understand it, but to all the young kids who were born after the fall, they know nothing about it, and it doesn't even register anymore except maybe in school where they learn the history behind it all.

Like this too DS practice will become.

my 2c worth.

iloveds

kurava

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2010, 09:12:18 AM »
Mission Statement of this website – “Everyone presents this information without EXCLUDING THE OTHER SIDE completely. The 'other side' may be wrong, but in debate, the purpose is not to make them wrong by rudeness, but by wisdom, knowledge, information, facts and let them think it out. It is to win your 'opponent' by skill of your knowledge and presentation.”

Everyone is welcome to post in this website provided one can do so with respect to its Mission Statement. Rude words and bashings are not winning, they are mere verbal abuses. If we are true practitioner of Buddha Dharma, we should understand the wisdom of  the statement. The people that started this site are following the foot steps of the historical Buddha and all the lineage gurus – faith is  founded on logic and sincere examples not on violence and abuse.



DharmaDefender

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2010, 09:51:53 AM »
Is there someone who knows what really went on behind the scenes who can enlighten the rest of us? There are so so so many unpleasant posts all over the internet about Geshe-la and it is very disturbing and a huge turn-off for new people to read, especially the defaced photos of him.

I stick to my original point posted somewhere in the Lucy James thread that as organisations grow bigger with huge public profiles, there are bound to be those who are dissatisfied with the leadership, looking to gain a piece of the pie for themselves and when deterred, lash out with public statements that are partly or completely false. It is sites like NKTWORLD that plant the seeds of doubt in fresh new minds, and that must be avoided.

I believe Geshe-la to be free of fault or improper motivation, as I was taught by my teacher. And I am against putting other buddhist teachers down or criticising them. As a lay sangha member, how can i criticise someone ordained, who I am supposed to uphold as one of the Three Jewels? I who hold just the basic vows, how can I take up such a position against an ordained Sangha who has been taught in the greatest monasteries by such high teachers. Of course I cannot and neither should anyone else. It is ridiculous how lay people find it so easy to point fingers at the sangha nowadays.

I do not believe what they say of Geshela. And I hope more of Geshe-la's students come forward to defend him and sing his praises in places such as NKTworld.

Actually, I find that when people resort to defacing photos, it means they have little to criticise about the actions themselves. It goes back to the kindergarten psychology innit? When a child's losing an argument, how do they react? They kick the other person, then run away. When you have no logical basis for something, you lash out in the most instinctive, direct way you can...but it doesn't hurt the other person, it just shows the level of your mind and shows you have no way of winning an argument.

It is ridiculous how lay people find it so easy to point fingers at the sangha nowadays but it just goes to show what a truly degenerate age we live in - 'Buddhists' fighting other 'Buddhists', 'Buddhists' accusing sangha, all in the name of dharma practice.

DSFriend - I don't think I've ever heard of any other Gelug lama ever thinking or wanting to take over the Dalai Lama's position. Anyway, the Dalai Lama always says he is but a simple monk...surely at the end of the day, all lamas are but simple monks...and in the minds of their students, a student's teacher is as important as the Dalai Lama himself.

DSFriend

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2010, 09:57:59 AM »
Mission Statement of this website – “Everyone presents this information without EXCLUDING THE OTHER SIDE completely. The 'other side' may be wrong, but in debate, the purpose is not to make them wrong by rudeness, but by wisdom, knowledge, information, facts and let them think it out. It is to win your 'opponent' by skill of your knowledge and presentation.”

Everyone is welcome to post in this website provided one can do so with respect to its Mission Statement. Rude words and bashings are not winning, they are mere verbal abuses. If we are true practitioner of Buddha Dharma, we should understand the wisdom of  the statement. The people that started this site are following the foot steps of the historical Buddha and all the lineage gurus – faith is  founded on logic and sincere examples not on violence and abuse.






Talking about non violence and abuse,  I came across this article today.  
The Enemy Within - The Dalai Lama on why the inner enemy is the most dangerous one
http://www.tricycle.com/onpractice/loving-enemy?offer=dharma

"Let me give you another example. When your mind is trained in self-discipline, even if you are surrounded by hostile forces, your peace of mind will hardly be disturbed. On the other hand, your mental peace and calm can easily be disrupted by your own negative thoughts and emotions. So I repeat, the real enemy is within, not outside. Usually we define our enemy as a person, an external agent, whom we believe is causing harm to us or to someone we hold dear. But such an enemy is relative and impermanent."

MANY practitioners see the Dalai Lama as the ENEMY...I just thought it's interesting that the Dalai Lama wrote on the enemy within. How is it possible that practitioners see the Dalai Lama as the enemy but so many non-buddhist see the Dalai Lama as the peace maker, Nobel Prize winner. What an irony.

Well thank goodness for the Dharma that the ENEMY IS RELATIVE AND IMPERMANENT. And that day will come as Dharma cannot be wrong. When the "enemy" is gone, there will be no oppression and I look forward to the day when shugden lamas will surface and play their part in benefiting all.

VS

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2010, 05:01:44 PM »
The thing we can do is to make our Dorje Shugden practices very strong by:

1. Having more centres that practice and promote Shugden

2. Making sure shar gaden and serpom 'make' it ( we must advert them, facebook, tweet them and financially support them)

3. Supporting financially all those who support Serpom and Shar Gaden

4. Raising the status of our Dorje Shugden Tulkus whose names are already well known (they are proof positive practicing shugden does not lead you to lower realms since they are back). Tulkus are very important. The continuation of their names throughout history makes impact.

5. Bringing in more people who know nothing of the controversy onto Shugden's practice-easier to convince-hence brochures

6. Making websites/forums like this a 'hive' of activity where everyone can log on for information and resources


This is fantastic and something I think all DS practitioners should read. Instead of merely going on and on about all that the Dalai Lama has done wrong (because this method is now starting to fall on deaf ears a bit isn’t it?), look for other means of promoting, supporting the practice and making it flourish.

In the frenzy of denouncing all of DL’s actions, we have forgotten all the amazing and hugely beneficial things that many, many DS lamas are doing all around the world – why don’t we talk about that instead? Lends far more inspiration for practice and brings a much more positive energy to the discussion.

These few points make such logical sense to me. Much like the way this website both provides knowledge about the issue but also creates a balance by providing plenty of information about the masters and the practice itself. Remember that not everyone in the world may be interested in the politics and controversy. I myself have met many people who have told me straight out that they don’t care about the politics. They just want to practice and want to know how the practice will help their spiritual path. Are we going to forget about all these people in our frenzy to drive home the point that DL is a “liar, dictator, hypocrite” and done all these wrong, bad things?

Yes, yes, it’s been said, we know he’s been doing these things – but what now? What else can we do? Find another way.

If you believe that Dalai Lama is actually helping to promote the Shugden practice and make it big, then you will be helping him to achieve this by doing things such as the points TK has mentioned.

If you really truly believe that Dalai Lama is a petty little liar who is out destroy Shugden, then “get your own back”: promote Shugden, prove the TGIE “wrong” who are out to demolish the practice, support the courageous people who are continuing their practice in the midst of all the difficulty.

Either way, you win because it will mean more people connect to the Protector’s holy practice and will benefit from it in their spiritual paths. Isn’t that what we all want in the first place? To preserve the lineage, teachings and bring this incredible benefit that we have experienced to many more people? Keep that focus and TK’s 6 points will fall ever so readily into a logical place.

Thanks again TK. These points have uplifted my heart on a day when the forum seems to have digressed to a lot of hateful words.


Thank you very much TK for this wonderful advice. It is very beneficial for anyone to handle the current situation even handedly.

Like Honey Dakini said :

'If you believe that Dalai Lama is actually helping to promote the Shugden practice and make it big, then you will be helping him to achieve this by doing things such as the points TK has mentioned.

If you really truly believe that Dalai Lama is a petty little liar who is out destroy Shugden, then “get your own back”: promote Shugden, prove the TGIE “wrong” who are out to demolish the practice, support the courageous people who are continuing their practice in the midst of all the difficulty.'

This is really a win-win situation for everyone. Either way we choose to follow, we are helping to promote DS in our own little ways.

This will provide newcomers an informative one stop place to learn about DS, more interactive and sharing of information. I've learnt a lot from this website since i first visited here a few months ago.

May this website grow to benefit many always.

Helena

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2010, 05:09:25 PM »
I would like to share these beautiful verses. They help to remind me to always find the best way - not best from my point of reference, but most beneficial from the recipients' point of reference.



See the truth, and you will see me.

Let your love flow outward through the universe,
To its height, its depth, its broad extent,
A limitless love, without hatred or enmity.
Then as you stand or walk,
Sit or lie down,
As long as you are awake,
Strive for this with a one-pointed mind;
Your life will bring heaven to earth.

Sutta Nipata
Helena

Vajraprotector

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2010, 08:10:29 PM »
“I could not decide against him [the Dalai Lama] but nor could I stop propitiating Shugden with whom my relationship dates back to previous incarnations. I find myself in an immensely difficult situation.

... But if I continue to propitiate the Protector publicly, I would be compelled to become a sort of head of his worshippers, and this would be an offence to the Dalai Lama from whom I received my Bhikshu ordination, and has always treated me with extraordinary benevolence.

… It is very clear my life might be in danger. So I have decided to leave my Labrang and disrobe, so that none of the Shugden worshippers can ask me to be their leader. I hope that this way I can respect the wishes of the Dalai Lama and still revere the protector, practicing in private and far from everyone. I intend to follow a middle way, neither for nor against Shugden. I appeal to both parties not to contact me."


Thank you Lone Hermit for sharing the above. It showed that the current Kyabje Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche will turn out to be a great spiritual master like who he was in his previous lives, despite not being in robes.  Kyabje Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche was put down by many because he disrobed, but if we look at the motivation behind it, this is one of the best way to keep peace.

For many lifetimes, His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Kyabje Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche have been working together to bring Dharma to great heights. I can’t wait to see how Kyabje Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche will bring the Dharma to great heights again!

I would like to share some brief quotes from a speech delivered by His Eminence Dagpo Rinpoche in November 1996, when he welcomed to Paris the fourteen-year-old reincarnation, Kyabje Chocktrul Rinpoche Tenzin Lobsang Yeshe Gyatso:

Today I will limit myself to just a few words about how, from the distant past, at all times and in all places, you have continued to work together with the Lord of the world Avalokite?vara to achieve the good of beings and to give them access to the Teachings.

To accomplish this, both of you have shown yourselves capable of every conceivable kind of relationship. You have alternated the role of Master with that of disciple, the role of donor with that of chaplain, parent, friend, or servant.

In the eighth century when Avalokite?vara manifested as the great king Trisong Detsen, you, Rinpoche, were the pandit ??ntarak?ita, the Indian monk who brought and established in Tibet the tradition of vows and religious commitment which form the basis of Buddha’s Teachings.

When the good qualities of human beings and the doctrine declined, you were the second Buddha, well known by the name of Ati?a D?pa?k?ra ?r?jñ?na. During the middle of the eleventh century you founded the Kadampa tradition with the help of his spiritual son Dromtönpa Gyalwé Jungne, who was none other than Avalokite?vara.

In order to consolidate and spread that tradition, you soon reappeared under the name of Lang-ri Thangpa Dorje Senge, well known as the eminent guardian of bodhicitta, in other words, a bodhisattva.

Some time afterwards, the good qualities of human beings diminished yet again, and the doctrine underwent another decline. You immediately assumed the shape of the second Buddha Je Tsongkhapa. That time your disciple was Avalokite?vara, later considered the First Dalai Lama. Together you took it upon yourselves to spread and expand the Teachings of the Buddha throughout the entire country.

And now we come to your immediate predecessor Kyabje Yongdzin Trijang Dorje Chang Chenpo, who for forty years was assistant and then tutor of the Fourteenth Dalai Lama.

Here you have a brief reminder of how and for how long you and the Buddha Avalokite?vara have been doing significant and enduring work for the benefit of sentient beings.


extracted from: http://www.tbiusa.org/trijangdorjechang/biography/dagpospeech

DharmaDefender

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2010, 09:41:52 PM »
Talking about non violence and abuse,  I came across this article today.  
The Enemy Within - The Dalai Lama on why the inner enemy is the most dangerous one
http://www.tricycle.com/onpractice/loving-enemy?offer=dharma

"Let me give you another example. When your mind is trained in self-discipline, even if you are surrounded by hostile forces, your peace of mind will hardly be disturbed. On the other hand, your mental peace and calm can easily be disrupted by your own negative thoughts and emotions. So I repeat, the real enemy is within, not outside. Usually we define our enemy as a person, an external agent, whom we believe is causing harm to us or to someone we hold dear. But such an enemy is relative and impermanent."

MANY practitioners see the Dalai Lama as the ENEMY...I just thought it's interesting that the Dalai Lama wrote on the enemy within. How is it possible that practitioners see the Dalai Lama as the enemy but so many non-buddhist see the Dalai Lama as the peace maker, Nobel Prize winner. What an irony.

Well thank goodness for the Dharma that the ENEMY IS RELATIVE AND IMPERMANENT. And that day will come as Dharma cannot be wrong. When the "enemy" is gone, there will be no oppression and I look forward to the day when shugden lamas will surface and play their part in benefiting all.


I woudn't go so far as to say that it is ironic, but to say that it proves your point very well - that the enemy is relative and impermanent. But I would venture to say that the same applies to your friend, who is also relative and impermanent. Until something is free from the laws of karma (i.e. an enlightened Being), or until something is the truth (i.e. the Dharma), surely 'friend' and 'foe' are just impermanent labels as we go through the cycles of death and rebirths.

I saw a greeting card in Camden recently, which said something along the lines of "if you can't be a good example, at least be a good warning". One person can be both. Simply by being who he is, the Dalai Lama can be both - the 'enemy' who tests us, and 'forces' us to remain unwavering in our practice. In that way, he becomes our 'friend'. Like Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye said in The Teacher-Student Relationship:

Quote
"It is difficult to recognize an authentic teacher, because these qualities are internal. We can not depend upon external factors, but external factors are what we see. It is very difficult to see the inner qualities of another person. A businessman might be friendlier to us than our best friend, while his unseen motivation is merely to make a sale. Likewise, if a "teacher" acts in a very kind and loving manner towards us it does not necessarily mean that he is compassionate and selfless, because we cannot see his motivation. We also cannot determine a teacher's qualifications based upon her fame, or whether she has thousands of students. So the seeker is left with this paradox."

pgdharma

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2010, 10:45:36 AM »
TK, thank you for your advice. This is sometime that all DS practitioners must read. Instead of just back lashing at the Dalai Lama, true practitioners must find various methods on how to promote DS. The idea of bringing in more people who know nothing of the controversy onto Shugden's practice through brochures is great.  This form of promoting Shugden’s practice can reach out to more people worldwide. Anyone can just download the brochures and passed out the simple well written information to newbies who can bypass all the politics and controversy.
Like what Wisdom Being said

“In any case - when the Dalai Lama passes on, I wonder how the young Lamas like Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche will manifest... especially as he is now in lay clothes and keeping a very low profile now. I can't wait for the day when the wall between Shar Gaden and Gaden Shartse comes down...”

It is indeed not easy for HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche to disrobe and leave his ladrang. But as a highly attained lama, he has decided to choose this path to stay in neutral ground  until the right time. It is very inspirational to hear of the sacrifices that he has to go through at this moment.                                                                                             

honeydakini

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2010, 04:28:50 PM »

MANY practitioners see the Dalai Lama as the ENEMY...I just thought it's interesting that the Dalai Lama wrote on the enemy within. How is it possible that practitioners see the Dalai Lama as the enemy but so many non-buddhist see the Dalai Lama as the peace maker, Nobel Prize winner. What an irony.

Well thank goodness for the Dharma that the ENEMY IS RELATIVE AND IMPERMANENT. And that day will come as Dharma cannot be wrong. When the "enemy" is gone, there will be no oppression and I look forward to the day when shugden lamas will surface and play their part in benefiting all.


This I have found to be the most interesting crux of this whole debate. The rather sad irony that people have had so much anger and hatred towards the Dalai Lama, in the name of Dharma… Forgetting of course, the defining point of being Buddhist which is to regard our enemies and those who hurt us as even more precious than ever, to hold them closer than ever and exert patient even more strongly.

It is these very “enemies” that help us practice and go further in our practice – so why do we scorn then? Feel anger? Why do we even feel disappointed? And allow that to dictate all we do and say thereafter?

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2010, 05:08:48 PM »
This I have found to be the most interesting crux of this whole debate. The rather sad irony that people have had so much anger and hatred towards the Dalai Lama, in the name of Dharma.
They have? Really? Who have had?

I think the crux of the whole debate is the fact that those who adhere to HHDL out of partisan feelings seem to be incapable of listening to any criticism voiced towards the factually unwholesome acts done by HHDL. As soon as anyone mentions, that, well, say for instance, going against the teachings of your Guru, and calling your Guru to be "wrong, totally wrong", is in itself wrong and dharma-destroying, all this is seen as hatred. It is not hatred, it is correcting errors. It is sticking to the truth, the Dharma. 

What is truly ironic and sad, is that those who rather wish that nobody would mention any bloopers made by the HHDL, dare call the victims of those bloops as having the fault of possessing anger and hatred.

(Tantric Disclaimer: If HHDL is your personal Guru, then by all means hold him as supremely pure, in all ways. But please, do not try to be DS-practitioner at the same time, for HHDL has denounced you, banished you, from his circle of disciples. It is either him or DS, if you believe what he says, and If you do not believe him, then of course, he cannot be your Guru at all in the first place, so the issue never arises.)

Dharmapal

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2010, 07:16:27 PM »
This I have found to be the most interesting crux of this whole debate. The rather sad irony that people have had so much anger and hatred towards the Dalai Lama, in the name of Dharma.
They have? Really? Who have had?

I think the crux of the whole debate is the fact that those who adhere to HHDL out of partisan feelings seem to be incapable of listening to any criticism voiced towards the factually unwholesome acts done by HHDL. As soon as anyone mentions, that, well, say for instance, going against the teachings of your Guru, and calling your Guru to be "wrong, totally wrong", is in itself wrong and dharma-destroying, all this is seen as hatred. It is not hatred, it is correcting errors. It is sticking to the truth, the Dharma. 

What is truly ironic and sad, is that those who rather wish that nobody would mention any bloopers made by the HHDL, dare call the victims of those bloops as having the fault of possessing anger and hatred.


This is undeniably logical and true, thank you Zhalmed Pawo. There has been a lot of shooting the messenger on this site recently.

(Tantric Disclaimer: If HHDL is your personal Guru, then by all means hold him as supremely pure, in all ways. But please, do not try to be DS-practitioner at the same time, for HHDL has denounced you, banished you, from his circle of disciples. It is either him or DS, if you believe what he says, and If you do not believe him, then of course, he cannot be your Guru at all in the first place, so the issue never arises.)

thaimonk

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2010, 12:25:21 AM »
This I have found to be the most interesting crux of this whole debate. The rather sad irony that people have had so much anger and hatred towards the Dalai Lama, in the name of Dharma.
They have? Really? Who have had?

I think the crux of the whole debate is the fact that those who adhere to HHDL out of partisan feelings seem to be incapable of listening to any criticism voiced towards the factually unwholesome acts done by HHDL. As soon as anyone mentions, that, well, say for instance, going against the teachings of your Guru, and calling your Guru to be "wrong, totally wrong", is in itself wrong and dharma-destroying, all this is seen as hatred. It is not hatred, it is correcting errors. It is sticking to the truth, the Dharma. 

What is truly ironic and sad, is that those who rather wish that nobody would mention any bloopers made by the HHDL, dare call the victims of those bloops as having the fault of possessing anger and hatred.


This is undeniably logical and true, thank you Zhalmed Pawo. There has been a lot of shooting the messenger on this site recently.

(Tantric Disclaimer: If HHDL is your personal Guru, then by all means hold him as supremely pure, in all ways. But please, do not try to be DS-practitioner at the same time, for HHDL has denounced you, banished you, from his circle of disciples. It is either him or DS, if you believe what he says, and If you do not believe him, then of course, he cannot be your Guru at all in the first place, so the issue never arises.)

So much denial.


Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2010, 02:17:34 AM »
This I have found to be the most interesting crux of this whole debate. The rather sad irony that people have had so much anger and hatred towards the Dalai Lama, in the name of Dharma.
They have? Really? Who have had?

I think the crux of the whole debate is the fact that those who adhere to HHDL out of partisan feelings seem to be incapable of listening to any criticism voiced towards the factually unwholesome acts done by HHDL. As soon as anyone mentions, that, well, say for instance, going against the teachings of your Guru, and calling your Guru to be "wrong, totally wrong", is in itself wrong and dharma-destroying, all this is seen as hatred. It is not hatred, it is correcting errors. It is sticking to the truth, the Dharma. 

What is truly ironic and sad, is that those who rather wish that nobody would mention any bloopers made by the HHDL, dare call the victims of those bloops as having the fault of possessing anger and hatred.


This is undeniably logical and true, thank you Zhalmed Pawo. There has been a lot of shooting the messenger on this site recently.

(Tantric Disclaimer: If HHDL is your personal Guru, then by all means hold him as supremely pure, in all ways. But please, do not try to be DS-practitioner at the same time, for HHDL has denounced you, banished you, from his circle of disciples. It is either him or DS, if you believe what he says, and If you do not believe him, then of course, he cannot be your Guru at all in the first place, so the issue never arises.)

So much denial.


If I now point that you were sarcastic, which of us were sarcastic, you or me, or both?  :D

WisdomBeing

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Re: Even Handed Information
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2010, 02:38:20 AM »
i am not a student of the Dalai Lama, so i do not have the conflict between being a Shugden practitioner and being the Dalai lama's student. However, while i'm not a student of the Dalai Lama, i still see that he has done a lot for Buddhism in his life.

On a personal level, i see things like this - i don't know if it's wrong or right but..
If the Dalai Lama is evil and I think he is a Buddha, i don't think there is any harm to me - especially as i'm not worshipping him or anything.
If the Dalai Lama is a Buddha and i think he is evil, i think that might bring me negative karma.

Of course i am extremely unhappy about the ban, which is causing hardship to many - especially in the Tibetan refugee camps. I don't think there is a single person on this forum (unless there are TGIE people here :P) who would be pro-the ban.

Anyway, while i vehemently object to the ban, i am personally trying to see the Dalai Lama as pure, which is why i subscribe to the bigger picture theory - because it is the only way for me to make sense of it all.




Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being