Author Topic: THERE WAS A BAN ON THE SEARCH OF TULKU DRAKPA GYELTSEN'S REINCARNATION  (Read 26306 times)

Helena

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I remember reading it in the website itself. But I can't find the actual article to pull up. But as I searched all over the net, there are many sources already claiming the same - that the search for Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's reincarnation was banned. The below is just one of many source.

In fact, as I recalled correctly, much more information was shared in the 5th Dalai Lama's Biography. Stating how his followers actually murdered TDG, even went on to murder TDG's family members, took away their property and land, dismantling TDG's Labrang, and altered documents to diminish TDG's role or even existence. It was almost like now how TGIE is systematically trying to erase Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's names from everything.

Isn't it amazing how history repeats itself?

The reason I am sharing this is to offer some explanation to the speculation that there is no further reincarnation of TDG, etc. Because I was also getting confused by all the different comments going back and forth. So, I decided to find some info on my own.

I think the point here is that there is no search for TDG's reincarnation from then on, because it was banned. Not because of any other reason. Having said that, it does not mean that TDG did not reincarnate and return time and time again. Just because no one formally searched and recognised him does not mean he has stopped returning.

As many of the past documents have already been 'manipulated', I am not surprised to find that a lot of facts are not really facts. So, who can say for sure? Safe for the bio of 5th Dalai Lama, which spelt out a lot.

And who is to say that TDG cannot return even if he has manifested as DS.

Manjushri can emanate in many forms, anytime, anywhere, and in several roles. Manjushri continues to, he doesn't stop.

Enlightened Beings will emanate as whatever forms that they deem most beneficial, whenever they need to. Different forms have different roles to play, for different specific functions.

HENCE, I think it is a big deal and it says a great deal that TDG is back. If this is true, and that he is really recognised by all the High Lamas and even the DS Oracle as stated in the newsflash - then it really is very positive news. It is enough to be just a slap on the TGIE's face for always thinking that they can snuff anyone or anything out. I see it as news of HOPE and the end of the fallacy that TGIE has built.

Naturally, I'd be happy and pray that all is true as stated in the website. Because it signals the end of this shadow play and all will come crashing down. Especially, the ban.

Here, I must stress again so that it is not misunderstood. I am not posting anything here to convince anyone, or impress anyone.

We are here to learn and discuss. I want to learn more and understand more too.

If anyone has more info to share and it enriches our understanding, please by all means, share away - but please backed up by more facts or information that you have gathered. That would truly be most helpful.

Thank you all in advance.


Source: http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/9840270

Tibetan historian Samten Karmay writes that after the death of Dragpa Gyaltsen the search for his reincarnation was banned. Later on he appeared as Dorje Shugden.

Rivalry, Murder and Reincarnation

Tibetan historian Samten Karmay writes "It should be recalled that he had been one of the candidates for the reincarnation of the Fourth Dalai Lama. As a result, he was always seen as a rival of the Fifth Dalai Lama though he invariably proclaimed himself a disciple of the latter. He came to be despised by a number of officials and especially the sDe-srid."Karmay, Samten G. "The arrow and the spindle : studies in history, myths, rituals and beliefs in Tibet.", page 514, Kathmandu : Mandala Book Point, 1998.]

Because Dragpa Gyaltsen's fame rivaled that of the Fifth Dalai Lama, Sonam Chöpel and some of the Dalai Lama's other attendants became extremely jealous and later murdered Dragpa Gyltsen. [ [http://www.dorjeshugden.com/articles/musicdelighting.pdf] p.95] .

Tibetan historian Samten Karmay further writes "The circumstances of his death, whether natural or not, were contested and part of the dGe-lugs-pa school believed that the official Norbu, acting under the sDe-srid's orders had assassinated him. Whatever the truth, the search for his reincarnation was banned, which suggests that the affair must have been quite serious indeed. In 1658, the actual building of the 'Upper Chamber' was destroyed and the stupa containing the remains of the Lama was supposedly thrown into the sKyid-chu river. It was then believed that the spirit of Grags-pa rgyal-mtshan had returned as a sort of 'protector of the Buddhist religion'."
Helena

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Thank you for this post.

You are right about all the going back and forth regarding the return of TDG...it can cause some confusion. Nevertheless, the news and all the big hoohah over it are very encouraging signs because it shows that this news is significant and many individuals and organizations have strong interest. This in turn reveals the significance of TDG's role for the Dharma in the past and the future.

Similarly, it is very humbling to experience the compassion and dedication TDK has towards the Dharma: coming back lifetime after lifetime without deserved recognized just to serve sentient beings and the Buddhadharma.

I look forward to the day the incarnation of the revered TDG reveals himself/herself and continue the powerful work in the forefront of the Dharma community. This may be the "perfect" timing with H.H making changes to the system of His institution as shared during an interview on His birthday. We may be so lucky as to witness the passing of the torch from one spectacular living Buddha to the next.

crazycloud

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We are here to learn and discuss. I want to learn more and understand more too.

If anyone has more info to share and it enriches our understanding, please by all means, share away - but please backed up by more facts or information that you have gathered. That would truly be most helpful.


So, I decided to find some info on my own.


Hi ST

it is so pleasant to see someone who is interested in doing some research.

Quote

In fact, as I recalled correctly, much more information was shared in the 5th Dalai Lama's Biography. Stating how his followers actually murdered TDG, even went on to murder TDG's family members, took away their property and land, dismantling TDG's Labrang, and altered documents to diminish TDG's role or even existence. It was almost like now how TGIE is systematically trying to erase Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's names from everything.

Isn't it amazing how history repeats itself?


truly amazing. The thing I find perhaps most amazing is that they think they are going to get away with it. They might even, if the "let's keep quiet" set gets their way.


Quote
And who is to say that TDG cannot return even if he has manifested as DS.


Well, if you think about this, it doesn't really make sense.

TDG and DS are the same continuum, so TDG became DS.
There is a casue and effect realtionship there. The mind of TDG was the substantial cause of the mind of DS, and as Chandrakirti very clearly explains in Madhyamakavatara, the seed can no longer exist at the time of the sprout. So, given that Dorje Shugden exists, we must conclude it is impossible for TDG to do anything at all, as the seed has disappeared to become the sprout. If you believe DS can manifest and function, then it becomes nonsense to say that TDG is functioning.


Quote
HENCE, I think it is a big deal and it says a great deal that TDG is back. If this is true, and that he is really recognised by all the High Lamas and even the DS Oracle as stated in the newsflash - then it really is very positive news. It is enough to be just a slap on the TGIE's face for always thinking that they can snuff anyone or anything out. I see it as news of HOPE and the end of the fallacy that TGIE has built.


There is nothing I would like more than to see the TGIE'S lies exposed AS lies. But if we build our case on things that don[t make sense, we will b e exposed to ridicule and our points will be lost

Quote
Naturally, I'd be happy and pray that all is true as stated in the website. Because it signals the end of this shadow play and all will come crashing down. Especially, the ban.


we are of one mind on this one.

All that having been said, let's take a look at your research.....

Quote
I think the point here is that there is no search for TDG's reincarnation from then on, because it was banned.


so here we have the probandum

Quote
Not because of any other reason. Having said that,...


here we have an assertion without any reason offered.

 
Quote
it does not mean that TDG did not reincarnate and return time and time again. Just because no one formally searched and recognised him does not mean he has stopped returning.


It is true that when a tulku is not recognized, it does not mean that he does not continue to perform his or her beneficial activities.

Quote
Tibetan historian Samten Karmay writes that after the death of Dragpa Gyaltsen the search for his reincarnation was banned. Later on he appeared as Dorje Shugden.


So here we have the reason. It is true because Samten Karmay says so. Is this a valid reason? If you read what Karmay wrote, you will see there is no citation, no reference. It may just be his own opinion, it may be that he didn't understand what happened. So still, we have nothing proven, we just see that someone wrote it down somewhere.

Quote
Tibetan historian Samten Karmay writes "It should be recalled that he had been one of the candidates for the reincarnation of the Fourth Dalai Lama. As a result, he was always seen as a rival of the Fifth Dalai Lama though he invariably proclaimed himself a disciple of the latter. He came to be despised by a number of officials and especially the sDe-srid."Karmay, Samten G. "The arrow and the spindle : studies in history, myths, rituals and beliefs in Tibet.", page 514, Kathmandu : Mandala Book Point, 1998.]

....Because Dragpa Gyaltsen's fame rivaled that of the Fifth Dalai Lama, Sonam Chöpel and some of the Dalai Lama's other attendants became extremely jealous and later murdered Dragpa Gyltsen. [ [http://www.dorjeshugden.com/articles/musicdelighting.pdf] p.95] .


I agree with everything here because it can be backed up with several independent sources

Quote

Tibetan historian Samten Karmay further writes "The circumstances of his death, whether natural or not, were contested and part of the dGe-lugs-pa school believed that the official Norbu, acting under the sDe-srid's orders had assassinated him. Whatever the truth, the search for his reincarnation was banned, which suggests that the affair must have been quite serious indeed. In 1658, the actual building of the 'Upper Chamber' was destroyed and the stupa containing the remains of the Lama was supposedly thrown into the sKyid-chu river. It was then believed that the spirit of Grags-pa rgyal-mtshan had returned as a sort of 'protector of the Buddhist religion'."



So here we have to use critical intelligence. Samten Karmay claims the search for the reincarnation was banned. We should not take this at face value because the unsupported words of scholars, as we know better than most, can be completely incorrect (see George Dreyfus for many, many hilarious examples)

So we should investigate.

What as the view of those who despised TDG? That he had become a spirit. What was the view of those who had faith in him? That he had become a Dhamapala. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to say the reincarnation was banned, it was simply not sought. Why? no-one in the equation believed there was a reincarnation. So they dismantled Zimkhang Gong because there was no longer a Zimkhang Gongma, etc.

Banned means an official edict that one must not do something. But there would not be an edict against something that no-one is attempting.

In order to show there was a ban, you should show evidence of such a thing. SO far there is none forthcoming, so intelligent people should view any such claims with skeptisicm. Why believe something that makes no sense and is not supported by any evidence?

cheers,

cc
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 04:33:12 PM by crazycloud »

crazycloud

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I look forward to the day the incarnation of the revered TDG reveals himself/herself and continue the powerful work in the forefront of the Dharma community. This may be the "perfect" timing with H.H making changes to the system of His institution as shared during an interview on His birthday. We may be so lucky as to witness the passing of the torch from one spectacular living Buddha to the next.

I think we can rest assured that DL will not be passing the power to and "TDG" or any Dorje Shugden practitioner for that matter. Where do people come up with these fantastic notions?!?!

LosangKhyentse

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I remember reading it in the website itself. But I can't find the actual article to pull up. But as I searched all over the net, there are many sources already claiming the same - that the search for Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's reincarnation was banned. The below is just one of many source.

In fact, as I recalled correctly, much more information was shared in the 5th Dalai Lama's Biography. Stating how his followers actually murdered TDG, even went on to murder TDG's family members, took away their property and land, dismantling TDG's Labrang, and altered documents to diminish TDG's role or even existence. It was almost like now how TGIE is systematically trying to erase Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's names from everything.

Isn't it amazing how history repeats itself?

The reason I am sharing this is to offer some explanation to the speculation that there is no further reincarnation of TDG, etc. Because I was also getting confused by all the different comments going back and forth. So, I decided to find some info on my own.

I think the point here is that there is no search for TDG's reincarnation from then on, because it was banned. Not because of any other reason. Having said that, it does not mean that TDG did not reincarnate and return time and time again. Just because no one formally searched and recognised him does not mean he has stopped returning.

As many of the past documents have already been 'manipulated', I am not surprised to find that a lot of facts are not really facts. So, who can say for sure? Safe for the bio of 5th Dalai Lama, which spelt out a lot.

And who is to say that TDG cannot return even if he has manifested as DS.

Manjushri can emanate in many forms, anytime, anywhere, and in several roles. Manjushri continues to, he doesn't stop.

Enlightened Beings will emanate as whatever forms that they deem most beneficial, whenever they need to. Different forms have different roles to play, for different specific functions.

HENCE, I think it is a big deal and it says a great deal that TDG is back. If this is true, and that he is really recognised by all the High Lamas and even the DS Oracle as stated in the newsflash - then it really is very positive news. It is enough to be just a slap on the TGIE's face for always thinking that they can snuff anyone or anything out. I see it as news of HOPE and the end of the fallacy that TGIE has built.

Naturally, I'd be happy and pray that all is true as stated in the website. Because it signals the end of this shadow play and all will come crashing down. Especially, the ban.

Here, I must stress again so that it is not misunderstood. I am not posting anything here to convince anyone, or impress anyone.

We are here to learn and discuss. I want to learn more and understand more too.

If anyone has more info to share and it enriches our understanding, please by all means, share away - but please backed up by more facts or information that you have gathered. That would truly be most helpful.

Thank you all in advance.


Source: http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/9840270

Tibetan historian Samten Karmay writes that after the death of Dragpa Gyaltsen the search for his reincarnation was banned. Later on he appeared as Dorje Shugden.

Rivalry, Murder and Reincarnation

Tibetan historian Samten Karmay writes "It should be recalled that he had been one of the candidates for the reincarnation of the Fourth Dalai Lama. As a result, he was always seen as a rival of the Fifth Dalai Lama though he invariably proclaimed himself a disciple of the latter. He came to be despised by a number of officials and especially the sDe-srid."Karmay, Samten G. "The arrow and the spindle : studies in history, myths, rituals and beliefs in Tibet.", page 514, Kathmandu : Mandala Book Point, 1998.]

Because Dragpa Gyaltsen's fame rivaled that of the Fifth Dalai Lama, Sonam Chöpel and some of the Dalai Lama's other attendants became extremely jealous and later murdered Dragpa Gyltsen. [ [http://www.dorjeshugden.com/articles/musicdelighting.pdf] p.95] .

Tibetan historian Samten Karmay further writes "The circumstances of his death, whether natural or not, were contested and part of the dGe-lugs-pa school believed that the official Norbu, acting under the sDe-srid's orders had assassinated him. Whatever the truth, the search for his reincarnation was banned, which suggests that the affair must have been quite serious indeed. In 1658, the actual building of the 'Upper Chamber' was destroyed and the stupa containing the remains of the Lama was supposedly thrown into the sKyid-chu river. It was then believed that the spirit of Grags-pa rgyal-mtshan had returned as a sort of 'protector of the Buddhist religion'."



What a wonderful post. Thank you.

Ban or not, Tulkus the level of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen will always return again and again. They will never stop till the end of samsara.

it is very open and dharmic of the Shar Gaden Monks to keep an open mind and not reject Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation. I really follow their way of thinking and approach. Since Tenzin Sungrab I assume mentioned he recieved this information off this website, it shows that the monks there somehow respect what is written on this website.

TK

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And who is to say that TDG cannot return even if he has manifested as DS.

Manjushri can emanate in many forms, anytime, anywhere, and in several roles. Manjushri continues to, he doesn't stop.

Enlightened Beings will emanate as whatever forms that they deem most beneficial, whenever they need to. Different forms have different roles to play, for different specific functions.


I was having a relaxing evening yesterday, chatting with friends and we discussed the return of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. We got into a bit of debate over this very point - that if TDG became DS, how can TDG reincarnate back?

Your points here explain it exactly. TDG is an emanation of Manjushri. Manjushri is a Buddha, ergo Manjushri is neither restrained by form nor function. Saying that TDG cannot emanate is like saying that the Buddha's power is limited.

if it is beneficial to many sentient beings for TDG to reincarnate, i believe he would have. Otherwise why would the Buddha Manjushri's emanation reappear? Buddhas manifest everything for a purpose.
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crazycloud

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 if TDG became DS, how can TDG reincarnate back?

Your points here explain it exactly. TDG is an emanation of Manjushri. Manjushri is a Buddha, ergo Manjushri is neither restrained by form nor function. Saying that TDG cannot emanate is like saying that the Buddha's power is limited.


Correct, Manjushri can emanate, TDG cannot reincarnate, sorry. Developing discrimination will help you see the difference. Ignoring an argument does not mean it isn't there.

thor

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I was having a relaxing evening yesterday, chatting with friends and we discussed the return of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. We got into a bit of debate over this very point - that if TDG became DS, how can TDG reincarnate back?

Your points here explain it exactly. TDG is an emanation of Manjushri. Manjushri is a Buddha, ergo Manjushri is neither restrained by form nor function. Saying that TDG cannot emanate is like saying that the Buddha's power is limited.

if it is beneficial to many sentient beings for TDG to reincarnate, i believe he would have. Otherwise why would the Buddha Manjushri's emanation reappear? Buddhas manifest everything for a purpose.

I like what you said there. It is not whether TDG can or cannot emanate. It is whether he would have. Let's take a look at a few possible reasons why he might have decided to pay us a visit again (before anyone jumps on me, let's take it as a fun hypothesis ok. Can't we all be friends?)

1. To lead us to the next great renaissance of Buddhism
2. To be living proof of the TGIE's erroneous ways
3. To be a beacon of hope for those who have been affected, downtrodden by the ban
4. He was an object of refuge and would return again and again to continue benefiting those who had taken refuge in him


and a few reasons why he wouldnt

1. DS is enough
2. He knew many people would not believe it was really him
3. He would have to put up with a lot of flak from the TGIE
4. He would not be able to claim his rightful place, thus forcing him to work undercover and starting from the ground up again, slowing down his work

If he did show up, it must really be him - a great Bodhisattva, a protector of Tsongkhapa's teachings. He would have to work so much harder than if he just hung around in Tushita heaven.

LosangKhyentse

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And who is to say that TDG cannot return even if he has manifested as DS.

Manjushri can emanate in many forms, anytime, anywhere, and in several roles. Manjushri continues to, he doesn't stop.

Enlightened Beings will emanate as whatever forms that they deem most beneficial, whenever they need to. Different forms have different roles to play, for different specific functions.


I was having a relaxing evening yesterday, chatting with friends and we discussed the return of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. We got into a bit of debate over this very point - that if TDG became DS, how can TDG reincarnate back?

Your points here explain it exactly. TDG is an emanation of Manjushri. Manjushri is a Buddha, ergo Manjushri is neither restrained by form nor function. Saying that TDG cannot emanate is like saying that the Buddha's power is limited.

if it is beneficial to many sentient beings for TDG to reincarnate, i believe he would have. Otherwise why would the Buddha Manjushri's emanation reappear? Buddhas manifest everything for a purpose.

Definitely TDG can incarnate as and when he likes. There's no issues with that. No one can stop him. He is motivated by Bodhicitta and overall need.
tk

crazycloud

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And who is to say that TDG cannot return even if he has manifested as DS.

Manjushri can emanate in many forms, anytime, anywhere, and in several roles. Manjushri continues to, he doesn't stop.

Enlightened Beings will emanate as whatever forms that they deem most beneficial, whenever they need to. Different forms have different roles to play, for different specific functions.


If you think about this, it doesn't really make sense.

TDG and DS are the same continuum, so TDG became DS.
There is a casue and effect realtionship there. The mind of TDG was the substantial cause of the mind of DS, and as Chandrakirti very clearly explains in Madhyamakavatara, the seed can no longer exist at the time of the sprout. So, given that Dorje Shugden exists, we must conclude it is impossible for TDG to do anything at all, as the seed has disappeared to become the sprout. If you believe DS can manifest and function, then it becomes nonsense to say that TDG is functioning.


I was having a relaxing evening yesterday, chatting with friends and we discussed the return of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen. We got into a bit of debate over this very point - that if TDG became DS, how can TDG reincarnate back?

Your points here explain it exactly. TDG is an emanation of Manjushri. Manjushri is a Buddha, ergo Manjushri is neither restrained by form nor function. Saying that TDG cannot emanate is like saying that the Buddha's power is limited.

if it is beneficial to many sentient beings for TDG to reincarnate, i believe he would have. Otherwise why would the Buddha Manjushri's emanation reappear? Buddhas manifest everything for a purpose.

Definitely TDG can incarnate as and when he likes. There's no issues with that. No one can stop him. He is motivated by Bodhicitta and overall need.
tk


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I look forward to the day the incarnation of the revered TDG reveals himself/herself and continue the powerful work in the forefront of the Dharma community. This may be the "perfect" timing with H.H making changes to the system of His institution as shared during an interview on His birthday. We may be so lucky as to witness the passing of the torch from one spectacular living Buddha to the next.

Dalai Lama will not pass any torch to Dorje Shugden lamas, but he doesn't need to. The many shugden lamas will light their own torch and will become leaders in their own dharma communities in time. But I salute your positive outlook. Whether it will come true or not, doesn't matter. Keep up the positive thoughts. We all need that.

tk
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 12:41:56 AM by tk »

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I look forward to the day the incarnation of the revered TDG reveals himself/herself and continue the powerful work in the forefront of the Dharma community. This may be the "perfect" timing with H.H making changes to the system of His institution as shared during an interview on His birthday. We may be so lucky as to witness the passing of the torch from one spectacular living Buddha to the next.

Dalai Lama will not pass any torch to Dorje Shugden lamas, but he doesn't need to. The many shugden lamas will light their own torch and will become leaders in their own dharma communities in time.


Totally agree, well said.

triesa

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 if TDG became DS, how can TDG reincarnate back?

Your points here explain it exactly. TDG is an emanation of Manjushri. Manjushri is a Buddha, ergo Manjushri is neither restrained by form nor function. Saying that TDG cannot emanate is like saying that the Buddha's power is limited.


Correct, Manjushri can emanate, TDG cannot reincarnate, sorry. Developing discrimination will help you see the difference. Ignoring an argument does not mean it isn't there.

If TDG is an emanation of Manjushri, I do not see why TDG cannot emanate again. The statement made by crazycloud that Manjushri can emanate , TDG cannot recarnate does not make sense to me.

TDG and Manjushri is of the same mind continium, so what stop TDG from emanating again and again? As long as there is benefits to sentient beings, Bodhisattva like TDG will continue to emanate.

Triesa

Helena

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Thank you all for taking the time to answer my thread. I am very grateful indeed.

I am of the same mind sets who view that any Enlightened Beings and Buddhas can choose to emanate at anytime, anywhere and even in several forms or places at the same time - if there is a need for them to do so.
Saying that they can't, would be way too limiting on their "powers/abilities."

I did say that there are many sources out there, I just chose to quote one. If we regard these as just words or points of views of individuals and so we don't need to respect or listen to any of them, then we can surely say the same about all oral transmissions, and living transmissions that are the very core of the Gelugpa Lineage. I guess what makes the most distinct difference is who they are, the speakers, the authors - if they are credible.

I would say, the Tibetan Historian, Samten Karmay would be credible enough. Certainly more so than me, for sure. But then again, I would say that because I have compared his "story" with many other "stories" which uphold the same theory about the ban being enforced to this day.

I would say that the success of the ban may be that some people have actually begin to believe that TDG can never return. I am also inclined to believe that it is precisely their intention for many future generations to completely forget about TDG until the name does not even exist and no one believes that this great Dharma King is of any value to us. So, I believe if we think that way, then it is clear that whatever they have done 350 years ago, however much they have erased - have certainly done its damage that lasts to this day.

In this respect, I can understand why it is so much more important for TDG to return and make his announcement publicly "this time around". There is so much at stake – the entire Gelugpa Lineage, Lama Tsongkhapa’s Teachings, Nagajuna’s Views, etc.

To me - DS plays the ever important role of the Dharma Protector, but TDG is the Dharma Holder of all the above. Hence, his role is to propagate all the above, along with all the remaining “Living Buddhas” of our time. There aren’t that many left. Someone has to teach so that none of these jewels will be lost forever. Hence, DS and TDG are both vital at this time, at this juncture when things seem to be ‘changing’.

Of course, this is only my personal ‘speculative’ view. So, I am not stating that it is a fact. Naturally, when new information and facts come to light, I will have to also re-adjust my view accordingly. I have no wish to remain stubbornly ignorant.

Which is why I really appreciate this Forum - this space allows me to air my views, learn, share and also get enriched (without rude condescending remarks).

Thank you all again and especially, for your kind patience with a newbie like me. Have a wonderful day!
Helena

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 if TDG became DS, how can TDG reincarnate back?

Your points here explain it exactly. TDG is an emanation of Manjushri. Manjushri is a Buddha, ergo Manjushri is neither restrained by form nor function. Saying that TDG cannot emanate is like saying that the Buddha's power is limited.


Correct, Manjushri can emanate, TDG cannot reincarnate, sorry. Developing discrimination will help you see the difference. Ignoring an argument does not mean it isn't there.

I'm not ignoring an argument. It is my understanding of the situation. I'm not sure what you mean by developing discrimination. Please explain?

I see Manjushri and TDG having the same enlightened energy, which is why I said that TDG can reincarnate. I believe that as an emanation of Manjushri, TDG can even reincarnate as many forms, though can and would are different things. And that there is no restriction on his emanations through space and time for reasons already stated.



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