Who went to Tushita Heaven to receive the empowerment from Dorje Shugden?

[WisdomBeing]

Dear forum

I'm just curious which Rinpoche went to Tushita Heaven to receive teachings from Dorje Shugden?

According to http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/among-shugden-texts-1876.html, it is Tagphu Padmavajra (1876 - 1935) and states:

"Tagphu Rinpoche later travelled to Tushita pure land and received this initiation from Je Tsongkhapa and Dulzin Dragpa Gyaltsen." (reference is Guru Deva Rinpoche (1984), pp. 555-556.)


however, under the "Ten Simple Reasons why Dorje Shugden is a Buddha",
http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org/dorjeshugden10reasons.php
item 7. The practice of Dorje Shugden was taught by Je Tsongkhapa in Tushita Pure Land states that it is Tagpo Kelsang Khedrub Rinpoche:

"However, the current system of empowerment and worship is more recent and comes from a great Lama called Tagpo Kelsang Khedrub Rinpoche. Lama Tagpo went to Tushita Pure Land where he met Je Tsongkhapa and requested a teaching. In response, Je Tsongkhapa lifted up the cloth covering the front of the golden throne on which he was sitting, and the five lineages of Dorje Shugden emerged. Dorje Shugden then transmitted the practice to Lama Tagpo, just as Maitreya had transmitted five major philosophical treatises to Asanga in Tushita Pure Land in earlier times."

I had thought maybe it was a matter of spelling of names and the two are the same, but in another article (http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/among-shugden-texts-1800a.html), it says:

"Dagpo Kelsang Khedrub was two generations before Pabongkha Rinpoche, being a guru of Dagpo Jampel Lhundrub who was one of Pabongkha Rinpoche’s gurus. A further distinction needs to be made to clarify also that Tagphu Padmavajra is distinct from Dagpo Jampel Lhundrub. Tagphu Padmavajra was also a root guru of Pabongkha Rinpoche and is listed in his lineage prayer of the Ghantapa Heruka body mandala after Kelsang Khedrub. Tagphu Padmavajra and Kelsang Khedrup played critical roles in the development of the Dorje Shugden practice which culminated with Pabongkha Rinpoche."

Can someone enlighten me?

Many thanks,
Kate

[honeydakini]

I'm confused now.... 

So was it Tagphu Padmavajra or Dagpo/Tagpo Kelsang Kedrub who went to Tushita?

Pabongkha Rinpoche's Guru or his Guru's Guru?

[Helena]

Oh dear...now I really have got a headache too? Are they the same person but spelt differently or not the same? Someone help us here. Please.

[Protectors Champion]

Ask the Scholars on the site,
They are a Fountain of Knowledge.
You know the Oldies,
The ones who have been studying for the last 30--40- years,
Just to answer your questions.
How kind of them to be here.
Better to Look Before You Leap.
That's what Teacher are for.
Juniors should follow the Seniors
Then All Will Be Well

[crazycloud]

Oh dear...now I really have got a headache too? Are they the same person but spelt differently or not the same? Someone help us here. Please.

It was Tagphu Pemavajra

[thaimonk]

To native Tibetan speakers the pronunciation between "Dagpo" and "Tagphu" is quite distinct, but it is not distinct for many non-native speakers to notice the difference, particularly if they are not fluent.  Since quite often things are transcribed loosely or by non-native Tibetan speakers that don't know Tibetan very well that's where the confusion comes in. 

Second, orthographically they are also distinct, and again the loose transcription loses the subtlety.  Wylie is an exact method for transcription:
1.  dwags po (Dagpo) - a region in Southern Tibetan.
2.  stag phu (Tagphu) - a reincarnate lama based in the nags shod region of Kham.

So, first Dagpo Kalsang Khedrup is a Lama from the dwags po region of Tibet and wrote the root verses of Music Delighting.  Second, Tagphu Padmavajra (1876-1935) is a reincarnation of the Tagphu lineage that was one of *many* root lamas of Pabongkha Rinpoche.  Third, Dagpo Jampel Lhundrup (1878-1941), also from the dwags po region of Tibet was yet another root lama of Pabongkha Rinpoche.

This is confusing. Not easy to understand. So Pabongka Rinpoche had two gurus with similar names? Which one went to Tushita to bring the practice to earth and which one wrote it out that we have the kangsol now??

[Losang_Tenpa]

Tagphu Dorje Chang (Padma Vajra)received the Sogte directly from Tushita.

 

This was checked with a geshe here at Shar Gaden as well as a Rinpoche connected to Shar Gaden.

[crazycloud]

To native Tibetan speakers the pronunciation between "Dagpo" and "Tagphu" is quite distinct, but it is not distinct for many non-native speakers to notice the difference, particularly if they are not fluent.  Since quite often things are transcribed loosely or by non-native Tibetan speakers that don't know Tibetan very well that's where the confusion comes in. 

Second, orthographically they are also distinct, and again the loose transcription loses the subtlety.  Wylie is an exact method for transcription:
1.  dwags po (Dagpo) - a region in Southern Tibetan.
2.  stag phu (Tagphu) - a reincarnate lama based in the nags shod region of Kham.

So, first Dagpo Kalsang Khedrup is a Lama from the dwags po region of Tibet and wrote the root verses of Music Delighting.  Second, Tagphu Padmavajra (1876-1935) is a reincarnation of the Tagphu lineage that was one of *many* root lamas of Pabongkha Rinpoche.  Third, Dagpo Jampel Lhundrup (1878-1941), also from the dwags po region of Tibet was yet another root lama of Pabongkha Rinpoche.

This is confusing. Not easy to understand. So Pabongka Rinpoche had two gurus with similar names? Which one went to Tushita to bring the practice to earth and which one wrote it out that we have the kangsol now??

Hi THAIMONK

Kalsang Khedrup        (from Dagpo)
Padmavajra                (Tagphu reincarnation lineage)
Jampel Lhundrup       (from Dagpo)

does this help?

[Losang_Tenpa]

Tagphu Dorje Chang (Padma Vajra) is also mentioned in the 13 diety Yamantaka lineage prayer.

[Losang_Tenpa]

Trinley,

Do you have a copy of the Pawo Chigpa (Solitary Hero) lineage prayer?


Also, I have heard you mention the Dorje Shugden De-Bum. Where can I aquire that? Is that the digital version from the TBRC?

[DSFriend]

Oh dear...now I really have got a headache too? Are they the same person but spelt differently or not the same? Someone help us here. Please.

It was Tagphu Pemavajra

Crazycloud
Tagphu Pemavajra is the same as Tagphu Padmavajra? just want to confirm as it's quite confusing.

thanks

[Dharmapal]

I have a pdf version of the Gyalchen Bebum on my computer.

I am happy to let other Dorje Shugden practitioners have it, perhaps you could just let me know what you would plan on doing with it.

thanks 

[crazycloud]

Oh dear...now I really have got a headache too? Are they the same person but spelt differently or not the same? Someone help us here. Please.

It was Tagphu Pemavajra

Crazycloud
Tagphu Pemavajra is the same as Tagphu Padmavajra? just want to confirm as it's quite confusing.

thanks

(With the suspicion that I am being mocked, but unable to ignore a possibly sincere question.....)

yes, the same. Different spellings.

[Big Uncle]

Well, I checked in Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche... Trijang Rinpoche wrote his text as a commentary to the praise of Dorje Shugden that was composed by Dagpo Kelsang Khedrub. It is in the introduction....


"There is a verse of praise of his three secrets by way of expressing his realization, known by its first words of 'Pagme Kel Ngon', composed by Dagpo Kelsang Khedrub with some slight amendments by he who is in essence, all? pervasive Heruka, Vajradhara Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo."

[Losang_Tenpa]

The current incarnation of Dagpo Rinpoche (not Takpu Padma Vajra Dorje Chang) is now living and teaching in France.

Here is a photo of the current Dagpo Rinpoche-




Here is a link to the Trijang Buddhist Institute's website and a short overview of the current Dagpo Rinpoche.

http://www.tbiusa.org/teachers/dagporinpoche