Dalai Lama is a liar

[DSFriend]

Whatever the flood of Noobs and those who want to see the DL as a Buddha may say, the DL is a liar and has created a lot of suffering for many people.

Only the actions of the WSS have diminished the persecution by the TGIE (under the instructions of the DL).
Only the WSS stands up to this dictator, politician in robes. What have the others done?
Nothing........... at least nothing that had any effect. Only the WSS people are not afraid to lose reputation etc. and speak out in order to save Je Tsongkhapas tradition.

If no one speaks up any more, there will be no karma for the lineage to survive. It is a dependent related phenomenon. We create the causes for the lineage to survive, by practicing purely and speaking out against the lies, we do not create causes to have Je Tsongkhapas lineage in this world by remaining silent when others are trying to destroy it.

May the world wake up to the deceit and lies of this imposter Dalai Lama.

Vajra

I'm all for speaking out and I do think WSS has taken a courageous stand on this issue. We all can see that Dalai Lama has said many contradictory statements and issued bans based on illogical claims. He has been branded as the imposter. However, I do feel (from the short period of time having joint this forum) that we all have the same goal and are "friends of Dharmapala." What is WSS's views on singing a different tune instead, something along the lines of "Dalai Lama, lift the ban", "Dorje Shugden's time has come" etc.. instead of just calling out the negative traits.

I do wish very much for the day we can all practice openly, knowing that NONE of our Dharma brothers and sisters all over the world are being persecuted.

sincerely
dsFriend

[thor]

duldzin -

i stood next to tibetan disciples of several of these same high Lamas and protested outside the Dalai Lama's public "teachings".  they were representing their Lamas' views as their Lamas still felt unable to publicly speak out.  to practise openly but in private, or to have your disciples speak out, is very different from standing up and personally, publicly speaking out - that is very dangerous for most tibetans.  those i stood with knew this, and were prepared to accept the consequences, even if it meant their own death.  but the high Lamas, with so many dependents, cannot do this for the most part; i believe the majority of them would if they had no dependents to worry about.

why do you think the last Ganden Tripa had to wait til he had finished his term of office and secured the Trisur title before publicly defecting?  it wasn't cowardice!

By not defecting during his term of office, Gaden Trisur protected sanctity of the Gaden Tripa's office. He was protecting the lineage of the Gelugs (and indirectly the Dalai Lama). Imagine the consequences if he has defected whilst still holding the position of Gaden Tripa? It would have created even greater hype for the Dorje Shugden faction but the shockwaves would have been more damaging overall.

So someone like Gaden Trisur chooses the bigger picture rather than fulfilling his own wishes. He doesnt speak negatively about Dalai Lama but makes his stance abundantly clear.

[Atishas cook]

duldzin -

precisely. he, like so many others, felt that he couldn't speak out.  i know that many of these high Lamas have privately expressed their deepest thanks and full support to WSS and to Geshe Kelsang personally, and said that they regret not being in a position to offer more overt support.

DSfriend -

we did exactly this back in the 90s.  we sang "Dalai Lama: please give religious freedom" and held placards saying "Dorje Shugden loves all traditions", etc., etc.   he didn't listen.   we gave him opportunity after opportunity to discuss and debate his reasons.   he ignored them.   we have TRIED to be polite, to be gentle.   it hasn't worked.   now - sadly - is the time for wrathful actions.

he has left us no choice if we cherish our lineage and wish it to survive for future generations.   we must take away his power, break his spell; we must show the world the truth behind his lies.   

[Lineageholder]

duldzin -
we must take away his power, break his spell; we must show the world the truth behind his lies.   

I totally agree.  We tried dialogue, he wouldn't listen.

Now is the time for Dorje Shugden to show his power and grind the Dalai Lama's deceptive ways to dust through the WSS' actions.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

So someone like Gaden Trisur chooses the bigger picture rather than fulfilling his own wishes. He doesnt speak negatively about Dalai Lama but makes his stance abundantly clear.

What is this so called Big Picture? (I say there isn't any, but if you know one, then please enlighten me. Please start a new thread on that issue, if you feel inclined to reply.)

The fact that the Ganden Tripa had to publicly lie, not by words perhaps but lie nevertheless by silence, tells it all: (1) He was afraid; (2) There was something he was afraid of. While I applaud the actions of the Trisur, I despise the inactions of the Tripa. I of course do not hold this as any uncommon personal defect of the Tripa/Trisur, since the same socio-psychological phenomenon can be seen in Western Universities: The Professors are very modest, even dumbingly low-minded, and especially politically correct while In-House, but when retiring, they publish the best and most interesting works. They tell the truth of their thoughts only then. For when retiring, you cannot be kicked out of an office for saying the "wrong words". The only time these old croacks tell the truth is when they are too old to be a nuisance for the Powers-that-Be. So the idea of fulfilling one's own wishes is just there in the silence; namely, being silent while holding the Title and Power. Really neat. It is called politics, by the way.

When you say: "By not defecting during his term of office, Gaden Trisur protected sanctity of the Gaden Tripa's office", the Real World says that he merely diminished the Office. He made it irrelevant. He made it subservient to the Boss.

And so the World falls... into Kali-Yuga. The good men do nothing. They just keep silence, and retire funnily.



All the Tripa had to do was to say that "DS practice is an integral part of the Gelukpa-tradition, and whoever says otherwise, is ignorant about the tradition in question. I know this, since I'm the Ganden Tripa!" But no. He never said this. He bowed to the Boss. It was a safe move, and he was able to fulfill his tenure. He was a good doggy, and the Master gave him a bone. "Here doggy, here, bite this. Wag your tail!" Now he is kicked to his retirement, and he has no voice any more. The Tripa could have barked, even bite, but the Trisur is just an old shaggy doggie, growling in his shed. Nobody cares what he says. DO NOTE: I am not putting His Holiness the Ganden Tripa/Trisur down, I'm just describing in a colourful way how the situation unfolds and how it looks to a person who does not believe in some hypothetical Big Bicture. The so-called High Lamas, the Heroes, the Bodhisattvas, the Mahasattvas, the Mahasiddhas with all their siddhis, are just mere puppies of a guy called Dalai. That is all there is, nowadays. Mere politics. Nothing else.

[DSFriend]

Well, again happy Losar to all.
We seem to have hit a rock right now. The two sides, with just a few nuances, have exposed their reasons, and have hit a rock indeed, since both sides invoke an ultimate authority backing their position: their own Gurus.

Yes, I was just thinking the same thoughts. Where do we go from here! One commonality we share (either sides) is that we have Guru Devotion, which is one of the criteria as Dorje Shugden practitioner.

I have to say that some newbies --sorry, Noobs-- have become somehow more flexible, they seem to accept that there might be some function for the WSS´s position, even though they can´t share it.

I don't like to be called a Noob but hey, I am a "new kid" on the block and I've found this forum very enriching. So, call me what you like, I'm sticking around! A TIME WILL COME when I'm no longer a NOOB

Ok.
What I´m going to say doesn't sound very soothing, but I remembered something that might put the accusations against the WSS under a different light. The WSS is being accused of expressing hatred and having bad manners against the Dalai Lama. Well, beyond their intentions that are obviously good, do you know that they might have an excellent precedent for ther "rude manners"? Yes. Our forefathers from India, the old Buddhist sages of the holy Vikramashila monastery, when they didn´t approve the speech of one of their teachers, they tied up his writings to the tail of a dog, and released the dog in the city, for everybody to shout at those writings. When Lord Atisha sent "Lamp of the Path", for those sages to examine it, he was running that risk, he knew it and he didn´t condemn the procedure, he submitted himself to it. Happily for all of us his work was applauded, not attached to the tail of a dog.
So compared to this the WSS' manners become all of a sudden almost a Victorian lady´s manners ... this might help to put things in some different perspective ... or so I hope.

[/color]

Thanks A Friend for sharing this view. It does shed some light to how perhaps WSS "justifies" for their methods. There's so much contradictions from Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden as pointed out clearly by TK. I do not have clairvoyance and is impossible to see into DL or DS's mind. Thus, striving for equanimity is my only option and holding steadfast to my practice is something I will and can do.

I've posted somewhere in this forum about how in one of Shakyamunu's previous life, he killed to save many people. If we were to use this story to justify our conduct, then Buddhism will certainly have a totally different face and message for the world today. Thank Buddha this is not the case and no groups have gone all out to use this as a a precedent for their cause.

[Atishas cook]

dsFriend -

wake up, please.  ask disciples of Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche, a prominent Dorje Shugden Lama, why he was murdered.

you cannot have your cake and eat it.  EITHER you stop practising Dorje Shugden OR you act against the express wishes of the Dalai Lama.  EITHER Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit OR the Dalai Lama is completely wrong about him and wrong to suppress his practice.  EITHER the Dalai Lama is completely deluded and trying to destroy the holy Dharma OR he's enlightened and correct, and Dorje Shugden is a harmful spirit.  you decide.

and also - you talk of "sides".  there are no sides here - please don't start using such terms: it's potentially divisive.  we are ALL Dorje Shugden practitioners here - its just that some among us have a different, (and in my view frankly a bizarre and logically flawed) idea about the Dalai Lama and how to protect our lineage.  but we are all on the same side.  the only "sides" are Dorje Shugden practitioners defending their lineage against those who follow the Dalai Lama and are therefore hostile towards this lineage.  you (despite your crazy ideas!  ) are on our side.

[Lineageholder]

The lamas who are practising Dorje Shugden openly ARE already opposing the Dalai Lama. They are 'affecting' the Dalai Lama's long life and the cause of Tibet. That is how many uneducated Tibetans see it. In their minds, that alone is enough to justify death threats because they don't know any better.

The Dalai Lama alone will be responsible if any Shugden practitioner is harmed because he has circulated the wrong and irresponsible view that Shugden practice harms his health. 

This is yet another reason why he's a liar.

Shugden Lamas don't have any choice but to act 'behind the scenes' but you shouldn't take their lack of vocal support for the actions of the WSS to mean that they don't support them or that they aren't involved in 'A Great Deception'.  I do agree that the book is intended for a Western audience, but surely this is where his power really is?  If he hadn't courted Westerners, he wouldn't have had two movies made about his life story or be regarded as a virtual saint throughout the world.

I hope that this is about to come crashing down.  The truth needs to be told.

[dsnowlion]

But if  defaming the Dalai Lama is the correct way to go, why is it that barely any of the highest Shugden lamas are speaking out against him? These lamas stand up for their practice and their loyalty to Shugden but speak not a word against the Dalai Lama.

Dalai Lama does his thing, they do their thing. Follow their example.

I agree with you on that question duldzin. It is very logical. We can look at their example for they are not just Lamas but high Lamas with their vows intact. If the Dalai Lama will destroy Tsongkhapa's teaching like what Vahraholder mentioned, I'm sure they would have said something. But obviously not. They may have thank you privately, so why the need to do it privately?

I am a big fan of Gangchen Rinpoche, and he is on the wanted hit list of the Tibetan Govt site but I've never once heard him said or encourage defaming the Dalai Lama. I don't see Trijang Rinpoche saying we should defame the Dalai Lama and I don't think the Dalai Lama can destroy our lineage. Why because Dorje Shugden is a "Dharma Protector". And just because we are not shouting to defame the Dalai Lama doesn't mean we are allowing or agreeing with the ban.

I just think a different approach could be used instead. People who are not Buddhist will basically look at both parties equally confused, not really care much about the benefits of the practice but instead they will see the shouting and name calling actions as either "Buddhist not acting very Buddhist".

In my opinion he is playing a political game with his own people who wants a Free Tibet. Most of them feels that this is an even bigger issue then the Dorje Shugden ban. The would put Dharma 2nd priority and Tibet 1st. Eventually the cat will jump out of the bag as sorry to say but how long more does the Dalai Lama have? Already the Tibetan youths are taking matters into their own hands as the grow impatient with Dalai Lama's methods. 

[a friend]

but instead they will see the shouting and name calling actions as either "Buddhist not acting very Buddhist".

This has been repeated a lot in the last days and I don´t think it´s correct. I've been observing public reactions at the time of the demos, in 2008, and in general people were very interested in them and rather sympathetic. Actually people kind of like to see Buddhist monks involved in politics, they applaud when they protest against their government like they did in Myanmar, or against political events, like at the time of the unfortunate wars in Eastern Asia when the monks committed suicide by fire. Similarly they mostly seemed to approve the demos against DL, and both the public and the journalists that wrote about those demonstrations were in general appreciative of the fact that those shouting in the streets were defending a persecuted minority. To do this is something that is generally approved in our world. I got the feeling that the only criticism came from intellectuals working for the DL´s side already, or from those journalists desirous to be in agreement with the showbiz people, with the fashionable people. Or from those too angry with themselves for having showered so much adoration on the Tibetan leader in the past. After all, nobody likes to acknowledge errors of judgment.
I think it would be fair if you at least tried to understand some benefits from the WSS demonstrations:
1-They were the main outer factor for Shar Ganden and Serpom to arise without the monks being thrown out of the monasteries' land or out of India altogether, as was the intention of DL.
2-Forever they are going to be our shield against a very serious dammaging accusation that we might've suffered were it not for those demonstrations and other actions of the WSS: that we Buddhists cover up infamous actions like the segregation and oppression of a religious minority.
3-Forever they are going to be a shield against the accusation that Tibetan Buddhism constitutes a cult where the leader is protected no matter his actions. This accusations might've arisen at any moment presently or in the future, were it not for the actions of WSS.

I don´t think WSS is demanding from every Buddhist to join them. But I understand that they don´t like it that their justified actions be tainted by unfair accusations from those who should be helping them at least with prayers and prudent silence.

[Vajraprotector]

 

This has been repeated a lot in the last days and I don´t think it´s correct. I've been observing public reactions at the time of the demos, in 2008, and in general people were very interested in them and rather sympathetic.
Actually people kind of like to see Buddhist monks involved in politics, they applaud when they protest against their government like they did in Myanmar, or against political events, like at the time of the unfortunate wars in Eastern Asia when the monks committed suicide by fire. Similarly they mostly seemed to approve the demos against DL, and both the public and the journalists that wrote about those demonstrations were in general appreciative of the fact that those shouting in the streets were defending a persecuted minority. To do this is something that is generally approved in our world. I got the feeling that the only criticism came from intellectuals working for the DL´s side already, or from those journalists desirous to be in agreement with the showbiz people, with the fashionable people. Or from those too angry with themselves for having showered so much adoration on the Tibetan leader in the past. After all, nobody likes to acknowledge errors of judgment.

I think people like to see PEOPLE STAND UP FOR THEIR OWN RIGHTS, not necessarily “like to see Buddhist monks involved in politics”.

1) WSS dislike Dalai Lama mixing politics with religion, so are you saying people like to see Buddhist monks involved in politics? Then perhaps Dalai Lama should not be criticised for mixing politics with religion?

2) There are many types of “people” out there. There are who like to see Buddhist monks involved in politics, there are people who like to see other people being harmed, there are people who like to harm other people, all sorts.
But in the view point of Dharma practitioners, I think it hurts them to see “Buddhists against Buddhists” , especially for those who love the Dalai Lama and their protector equally.  They are then forced to make a choice – either they choose the protector and give up Dalai Lama, or they chose Dalai Lama – either way is no win (that’s what I think).

I think it would be fair if you at least tried to understand some benefits from the WSS demonstrations:
1-They were the main outer factor for Shar Ganden and Serpom to arise without the monks being thrown out of the monasteries' land or out of India altogether, as was the intention of DL.
2-Forever they are going to be our shield against a very serious dammaging accusation that we might've suffered were it not for those demonstrations and other actions of the WSS: that we Buddhists cover up infamous actions like the segregation and oppression of a religious minority.
3-Forever they are going to be a shield against the accusation that Tibetan Buddhism constitutes a cult where the leader is protected no matter his actions. This accusations might've arisen at any moment presently or in the future, were it not for the actions of WSS.

I don´t think WSS is demanding from every Buddhist to join them. But I understand that they don´t like it that their justified actions be tainted by unfair accusations from those who should be helping them at least with prayers and prudent silence.
[/color]

I am sorry but I have to disagree with no. 1 that WSS was the main outer factor for Shar Ganden and Serpom to arise. 

And I’m sorry to say that “Forever they are going to be a shield” may not necessarily apply, I have heard much bad press about the WSS as well, but just as I do not criticise the Dalai Lama, I do not wish to speak ill about the WSS as well as they did contributed to create awareness of DS. Also, as WSS is a “political” movement, it could be disbanded. Any political movement, we cannot be sure of their other motives or behind the scenes’ “objectives” that they want to achieve.

Just as WSS has highlighted that Dalai Lama is a political person and his wish to gain power BEYOND anything, Dalai Lama is now persecuting DS practitioners to gain power. Hence, WSS to might have their own hidden agenda.
Also, His Holiness always emphasized that people can practice Dorje Shugden privately and at their own places and there has never been a restriction for Shugden followers to set up their own monasteries. So what is sold as a success now by WSS is rather a natural outcome of what has been emphasized by H.H. the Dalai Lama and the TGIE ever since.

[a friend]

Also, His Holiness always emphasized that people can practice Dorje Shugden privately and at their own places and there has never been a restriction for Shugden followers to set up their own monasteries. So what is sold as a success now by WSS is rather a natural outcome of what has been emphasized by H.H. the Dalai Lama and the TGIE ever since.

This is just plain not true.

Could you please study the facts? Do not act here as a loud speaker of other people's non truths. Please.

Ever since! I just can't believe that you said that.

[Lineageholder]

Vajraprotector,

I'm finding it hard to believe you're not some kind of plant from the Dalai Lama's followers.  Your views are so harmful and undermine the very purpose that practitioners of Dorje Shugden are working for.  You spread dangerous heresies such as WSS is a political organization and cannot be trusted.  What are you doing practically to oppose the BAN (yes, there is a ban - no private practice allowed or else the Dalai Lama's 'heavies' will turn up on your doorstep and stop you.)  The Dalai Lama himself said, menacingly, that it would not be good if they (those who oppose the practice of Dorje Shugden) had to knock on people doors.  That's exactly what they've done in some cases.

People are suffering because of this ban.  The only people who are taking action is the WSS and you've got the audacity to question the motives of the WSS even though it's only ever helped Dorje Shugden practitioners by highlighting the Dalai Lama's draconian actions and protecting them from the worst excesses of the TGIE and its followers.

You're doing nothing but harm and causing division with your views, rather like the Dalai Lama himself.

[Atishas cook]

"Vajraprotector" -

before you or any of you others start complaining about us being all angry and un-Buddhist i want to tell you that you have no idea of the personal betrayal that Lhakpa Gyaltsen has been through directly at the hands of the Dalai Lama.  we have all suffered as a result of this man's persecution and many here feel that betrayal.  you too, definitely, have been betrayed - can't you see that?  you call him "His Holiness" - this is laughable.  there is nothing holy about the Dalai Lama except his Gurus, who he also betrayed.  your trust in him, your faith - he has utterly betrayed.

the WSS has to stand up to him.  this issue will not just go away of it's own accord.  do you think Dorje Shugden will magically appear from the sky and sort it all out?  Dorje Shugden, like all Buddhas, works in this world through emanations and by blessing the minds of sentient beings.  what do you think those emanations, and those sentient beings whose minds he has blessed, are doing: sitting quietly and hoping it'll all just go away?

of course everyone must choose between the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden!  but whose fault is that?  Dorje Shugden's?  the WSS'?  no - it is solely the fault of the Dalai Lama.  he has created this schism.  he has broken the hearts of millions of Tibetans.  he has betrayed thousands of starry-eyed western followers (yes, and Malaysians too!)

and all this "Trijang Rinpoche never criticises him; Dorje Shugden himself through oracle said not to criticise him" nonsense: you cannot trust what most Tibetans say publicly about the Dalai Lama - but that isn't their fault.  it's because of the danger they and their dependents face from the Dalai Lama!  the only Tibetans whose public statements on this issue you can trust are those who have cut all ties with the Dalai Lama and the TGIE and are hence no longer under their thrall, and there are very few of those.  check out what Geshe Kelsang has said, for an example.  then, if you want to know what many of them think privately, read A Great Deception.  where do you think all that info. came from?  why do you think there are no authors' names given?

you cannot trust what oracles say on this issue, either.  oracles are human beings and can be bought and threatened too.  if you were an oracle and you knew exactly what the TGIE would do to you if Dorje Shugden, through you, were to tell everyone that the Dalai Lama is a lying maniac - what would you do?

so for goodness' sake: wise up.  stop with this nonsense.  learn to distinguish fact from wishful thinking.  and try to distinguish wrath - a powerful and fierce compassion - from anger - the wish to harm another sentient being.  none of us wishes to harm you.  none of us wishes to harm the Dalai Lama.  we just want to knock some sense into him and stop him harming himself and so many others.  including you.

he has betrayed you.

[Losang_Tenpa]

As long as we don't resist the actions of Mr. Dalai, we are supporting him.

It is time to spit out all the lies that we have been forced to swallow