What's up with the Noob's?

[Ensapa]

From how i see it hating HHDL and hating Dorje Shudgen is the same thing; they both work for the Dharma in their own way, and us hating HHDL the way his supporters hate Dorje Shudgen makes us equal to the haters of Dorje Shudgen as well.

Dear Ensapa,

So, you're another new emanation!

Why do you feel the need to post the same stuff under so many different names?  Are you afraid of being in the minority? 

We don't hate the Dalai Lama, but to claim that the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are performing the same function is the root of your wrong view.  To use a 'Pabongkha-ism', it's like comparing a lame horse with a thoroughbred stallion.

How can you claim that someone who is harming others is a Dharma practitioner, much less a Buddha?  If you check, the greatness of the Dharma in these times is due to Dorje Shugden protecting Trijang Rinpoche and the precious Dharma of Je Tsongkhapa which has spread throughout the West since 1959.  On the other hand, all the Dalai Lama has done is make a big name for himself using his Guru's teachings, persecute his Guru's disciples and squabble over Tibetan politics, having totally failed to serve his people or accomplish the goals of Tibetan independence or autonomy they all long for.  You may say that his failure to accomplish his political goals are not his fault, but he certainly has choice over how he promotes or suppresses Dorje Shugden practice and he's obviously made the wrong choice.

These are the facts, not hatred. See things as they are, not as you'd like them to be.

and yet you turn a blind eye to how he supports the other lineages. whats with this one sided view?

so is this forum here to whine about how bad the Dalai Lama treated the practitioners of Dorje Shudgen even when history shows that his liaisons have misused his name? I'm not surprised that at the end its due to deluded and political ministers who cooked up the whole Dorje Shudgen saga. Then when that happens you're all gonna look so stupid.

So Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche also practiced Shudgen but i dont see them trashing the Dalai Lama the way you do? Pabongkha's children? dont sully his name like that.

I like it how people who have no dharma at all assume that directing hate at the Dalai Lama is Dharma practice.

Some Lama friends of with inside info, who happens to be working closely with the Dalai Lama said that the Dalai Lama will unban the practice -- soon. When that happens are we gonna disband because these accusations are going to look so stupid.

and again, you guys arent here to promote Shudgen, you're just here to promote hatred against the Dalai Lama. How much did the chinese govt pay you guys to do this?

[Ensapa]

Hey, Ensapa, what's your IP address?  I see you registered on the same day as DharmaDefender.

It was Shantideva who said to have no patience with delusions.

then who said its allright to make accusations against people? he he.

after all, i'm not the one filled with fear and insecurity and being paranoid about people.

so whats this forum about, to promote hate against the Dalai Lama or Shudgen? can anyone tell me? because only 1 can be done at a time.

[iloveds]

Dear Forum Members.

"ILOVEDS" is in no way another identity, i am not dharmadefender, dsnowlion, or anyone else. I am glad to know now that this forum is run by people who have taken a stand for our protector and I am glad.

But i am disappointed to know now that there is a view of anti HHDL. I hope I can learn something new about my protector here, where else is there more information on the web.

One day there will be a site without the politics and more the pratice.

Thanks

[Ensapa]

and yet you turn a blind eye to how he supports the other lineages. whats with this one sided view?

In order to support other lineages he has to tear apart the Gelug?!

so is this forum here to whine about how bad the Dalai Lama treated the practitioners of Dorje Shudgen even when history shows that his liaisons have misused his name? I'm not surprised that at the end its due to deluded and political ministers who cooked up the whole Dorje Shudgen saga. Then when that happens you're all gonna look so stupid.

I'm not whining, there has been "requests" to support the reasons why we think the DL's ban is not actually helping the spread of the Dharma in disguise, so we had to state these.  Was it the political ministers that came out and gave emotional speeches, come on, all the proof is on youtube.

So Pabongkha Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche also practiced Shudgen but i dont see them trashing the Dalai Lama the way you do? Pabongkha's children? dont sully his name like that.

Because their previous incarnations not living anymore?!

I like it how people who have no dharma at all assume that directing hate at the Dalai Lama is Dharma practice.

So by simply stating cases of wrong doing is hate?

Some Lama friends of with inside info, who happens to be working closely with the Dalai Lama said that the Dalai Lama will unban the practice -- soon. When that happens are we gonna disband because these accusations are going to look so stupid.

Somehow I don't believe this, but if it's true it won't bother me to "be a loser".

DL only said "dont practice" he never said anything about burning down houses of people who do; it was the tibetans who twisted his words and did those negative actions in his name.

especially when they're not living anymore you can see their biographies, that they never ONCE speak ill of the Dalai Lama. not like some of us here.

if a person has both good and bad qualities and you only focus on the bad, that sounds like hate to me.

[iloveds]

Ensapa got the point I was trying to make... I hope the forum is not about hate bashing. There is karma involved.

I remember what happened with e-sangha, another online forum... the people running it became self appointed judge, jury and lynch mob regarding Lamas and practices. Look at the karma now... the site is attacked and now offline.

I hope that doesn't happen with this protector site. Admin's take this as a warning. Freedom of speech is great, but don't own your opinions, don't be attached, opinions are not permanent.

Its one thing to bad mouth a person who is ignorant doesn't know dharma etc. but to bad mouth a teacher of the dharma has karma no matter how right you think you are. Even worse if you have taken refuge in the dharma, if you can bad mouth HHDL then stop practicing buddhism, stop your relationship with your teacher, you know more than them so you don't need the dharma... come to think of it, you don't need Dorje Shugden as you are saying your as high as your teacher and hence your protector.

Trinley Kelsang: yes you can be loser if the story turns out to be false. But your karma will still be full of schismatic actions if ban lifted or not.

Your actions are still directed at a person who brings more people to dharma than ourselves ever could. Your karma is not as small as just being wrong. Think deeper on this!

[dsnowlion]

Dear Beggar,

Welcome back! Why do you need to hide behind multiple IDs such as 'iloveds', 'Vajraprotector', Dharmadefender', 'pathseeker', and 'dsnowlion'?

Do you think that posting the same arguments over and over again under different names will give the impression of widespread acceptance of your view of 'Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden spreading Dharma together' and perhaps convince people to ignore the facts and adopt a wrong view?

HA HA HA!

Sorry to spoil the fun but I am NOT the same person as dharmadefender, iloveds etc etc. DON'T ASSUME as it makes an A$$ of u and me. (opps)! It makes me wonder is this how the whole idea that the Dalai Lama is a fake etc. all came about --- born from assumptions??? Hmmmm.... sad are we running out of points to debate that we need to talk about people's identity now. Who cares?!

However, the bigger picture is .... by us screaming Dalai Lama is a Liar etc etc etc, will it make situations far more worst for our Tibetan brothers and sisters practicing as they clamp down harder or will it help lift the ban??? What do we want the ban to be lifted or the ban to be tightened? Are we here to say he is wrong, he is right or are we here to clear people's doubts about Dorje Shugden?

Wrong view? Then aren't we also creating wrong view by condemning the Dalai Lama, isn't that destroying other people's faith in Buddhism / Dharma as well as someone's guru devotion, in this instance the Dalai Lama, who i'm sure is guru to hundreds of thousands. Wrong view plus wrong view is wrong view anyway. And what makes one think our view is right view anyway. Even if you have the right motivation but if the actions carried out is unskillful and creates more chaos, drives people away from the Dharma, break people's samaya, spiritual path, cause schism then it is still wrong. Is this what practicing Dharma all about? How sure are we to say our motivation is 100% stainless. Can we give teachings to thousands of people like the Dalai Lama? What are our results to show we are consistent in our right motivation? No one will know but the Buddhas and karma does.


I like what iloveds said. It is a dharmic, non voilent perspective and it is something I would adopt! and I am not the same person as iloveds and I do love ds!

And saying that  Dorje Shugden asked Dalai Lama to leave just because he was asked is just so lame. Now we're also underestimating Dorje Shugden? Dorje Shugden main role is to protect the Dharma and spread Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings. So if the Dalai Lama is going to destroy Lama Tsongkhapa's teaching then why would our Dharma Protector advise him to leave and spread Dharma to the world?? And look at him today has he done that? I think so.

[Lineageholder]

Dear Ensapa, et al,

How naive do you believe the Dalai Lama to be?  When he giggles and pretends that he doesn't understand English, everyone goes 'ahhhhhh, how sweet!', but he understands far more than he lets on.

Do you believe that he didn't know that WSS were chanting 'Dalai Lama, stop lying' and 'Dalai Lama, give religious freedom' and why?  Do you think he exists in a bubble, unaware of anything that's going on in the world while his evil ministers incite ostracism, violence and hatred? I think you're in denial.  The Dalai Lama himself praised the Gelugpa abbots for expelling Dorje Shugden practising monks, he's endorsing and encouraging their actions every step of the way.  He doesn't care where these monks live.  He simply DOESN'T CARE.  That's not an example I want to see from a Buddhist, let alone someone who is touted as the 'Buddha of Compassion'.

Even if you believe that the Dalai Lama has nothing to do with the draconian application of the Dorje Shugden ban, surely the Dalai Lama knows the suffering that his ban has caused, the violence and ostracism?  Surely he knows that families have been torn apart?  If he doesn't know, he's not in touch with what's happening in the community he's supposed to lead and he's not much of a leader.  Given that he knows what's going on, why has he never told his people in public talks to be kind to Shugden people, saying that they are deluded and need love, respect and help?  He doesn't do it because that would be talking about the elephant in the room - that there is a ban and that this ban is causing immense suffering to his people.

Please don't delude yourself....if you really think the Dalai Lama is the Buddha of Compassion, doesn't he know what's going on?  Wouldn't he do something to stop it? Either he isn't the Buddha of Compassion or he doesn't care.  I think both are true.

[Ensapa]

Dear Ensapa, et al,

How naive do you believe the Dalai Lama to be?  When he giggles and pretends that he doesn't understand English, everyone goes 'ahhhhhh, how sweet!', but he understands far more than he lets on.

Do you believe that he didn't know that WSS were chanting 'Dalai Lama, stop lying' and 'Dalai Lama, give religious freedom' and why?  Do you think he exists in a bubble, unaware of anything that's going on in the world while his evil ministers incite ostracism, violence and hatred? I think you're in denial.  The Dalai Lama himself praised the Gelugpa abbots for expelling Dorje Shugden practising monks, he's endorsing and encouraging their actions every step of the way.  He doesn't care where these monks live.  He simply DOESN'T CARE.  That's not an example I want to see from a Buddhist, let alone someone who is touted as the 'Buddha of Compassion'.

Even if you believe that the Dalai Lama has nothing to do with the draconian application of the Dorje Shugden ban, surely the Dalai Lama knows the suffering that his ban has caused, the violence and ostracism?  Surely he knows that families have been torn apart?  That being so, why has he never told his people in public talks to be kind to Shugden people, saying that they are deluded and need love, respect and help?  He doesn't do it because that would be talking about the elephant in the room - that there is a ban and that this ban is causing immense suffering to his people.

Please don't delude yourself....if you really think the Dalai Lama is the Buddha of Compassion, doesn't he know what's going on?  Wouldn't he do something to stop it? Either he isn't the Buddha of Compassion or he doesn't care.  I think both are true.

and this gives us the right to step on him?

no matter how much you hate him, he still has done more for Dharma than any of us could ever do. So when you have reached his level, feel free to step on him and call him whatever you like. until then, keep your hate to yourself

i'm not as naive as you think hehe.

[Lineageholder]

and this gives us the right to step on him?

no matter how much you hate him, he still has done more for Dharma than any of us could ever do. So when you have reached his level, feel free to step on him and call him whatever you like. until then, keep your hate to yourself

i'm not as naive as you think hehe.

You simply failed to address my questions.  I asked you to consider, logically, why the Dalai Lama doesn't do anything to alleviate the suffering of the ban he's caused if he really is Buddhist or even a Buddha of Compassion.  Instead, all you did was accuse me of hatred.  It seems that you cannot distinguish between strong words and hatred.  No one here hates the Dalai Lama, but there's no doubt whatsoever that he's the source of the 'Dorje Shugden problem' through his mixing of religion and politics.  It's this problem that 'a Great Deception' addresses.

Are you advocating non-action?  Do you think that doing nothing will protect the Dharma and lift the ban?

I'm afraid your view is irrational, given that the evidence does not support it, and harmful, in that doing nothing in this situation is just what is needed to destroy the Dharma. 

[Ensapa]

and this gives us the right to step on him?

no matter how much you hate him, he still has done more for Dharma than any of us could ever do. So when you have reached his level, feel free to step on him and call him whatever you like. until then, keep your hate to yourself

i'm not as naive as you think hehe.

You simply failed to address my questions.  I asked you to consider, logically, why the Dalai Lama doesn't do anything to alleviate the suffering of the ban he's caused if he really is Buddhist or even a Buddha of Compassion.  Instead, all you did was accuse me of hatred.  It seems that you cannot distinguish between strong words and hatred.  No one here hates the Dalai Lama, but there's no doubt whatsoever that he's the source of the 'Dorje Shugden problem' through his mixing of religion and politics.  It's this problem that 'a Great Deception' addresses.

Are you advocating non-action?  Do you think that doing nothing will protect the Dharma and lift the ban?

I'm afraid your view is irrational, given that the evidence does not support it, and harmful, in that doing nothing in this situation is just what is needed to destroy the Dharma. 

because its silly and shallow.

i'm speculating that it could be because DL thinks that some karmic debts must be paid. 2ndly, maybe there's something more to those people who "practiced" Shudgen and "presecuted" or whatever it is. I'm not DL i wouldnt know. But many lamas near DL and close to Trijang, Ling etc that do not comment about the issue (I'm guessing that they support Shudgen) dont seem to blame DL for the whole thing but rather the people who twist DL's words into hatred. They saw it as a way to expose the harmful mentalities that most tibetans have to purify it. In fact many tibetan lamas i have known from Gaden are pretty much nonchalant about the fact that many tibetans are stubborn and crude which is why DL is there to tame that kind of rowdy behavior and they're like "whatever he does to tame them down, i respect and i wont comment." even though most of them do practice hehe.

in fact many of them in Gaden worship Panchen Sonam Dragpa. Last time i visited last month there was a huge image of him in the debate courtyard. I'm guessing..............hmmm

maybe these lamas know more than us than to make hateful assumptions?

[Lineageholder]

Dear Ensapa,

Please don't take things personally, I've got nothing against you as you are a Dharma brother and fellow Dorje Shugden practitioner - it's just that your arguments make no sense.

It's very good news that, in your experience, many have not abandoned their Shugden practice.  No wonder the Dalai Lama is so upset and threatening to sack the abbots all the time! 

[LosangKhyentse]

The previous abbots of both Gaden Jangtse and Shartse were TOLD OPENLY DURING A MEETING TO RESIGN since they don't fall in line with the policies on Dorje Shugden by Dalai lama two years back.

The Dalai Lama told the Jangtze abbot that he is two headed literally. Which is one head says ok to Dalai lama, the other head doesn't surpress the Dorje Shugden practice in Jangtse and hence he should resign. The abbot did resign and yes he is a Dorje Shugden practitioner whose teacher was Trijang Rinpoche.

[Ensapa]

Dear Ensapa,

Please don't take things personally, I've got nothing against you as you are a Dharma brother and fellow Dorje Shugden practitioner - it's just that your arguments make no sense.

It's very good news that, in your experience, many have not abandoned their Shugden practice.  No wonder the Dalai Lama is so upset and threatening to sack the abbots all the time! 

nah, most of them seem to imply that the REAL target is the tibetan cabinet and the stubborn people in it thats causing DL to be very upset. i think from this clue we could conclude 1 or 2 things...

well i'm not here to argue, i'm just here to share with yall on whats really going on

[Ensapa]

The previous abbots of both Gaden Jangtse and Shartse were TOLD OPENLY DURING A MEETING TO RESIGN since they don't fall in line with the policies on Dorje Shugden by Dalai lama two years back.

The Dalai Lama told the Jangtze abbot that he is two headed literally. Which is one head says ok to Dalai lama, the other head doesn't surpress the Dorje Shugden practice in Jangtse and hence he should resign. The abbot did resign and yes he is a Dorje Shugden practitioner whose teacher was Trijang Rinpoche.

many seem to consider that "firing" as the same of how panchen lama was forcibly kicked out of the monastery many lifetimes ago --  a "staged" show for a bigger reason...at least thats what they mentioned when i asked them about this.

the less wise ones seem to be very agitated tho, as in the anti Shudgen monks. haha.

[Atishas cook]

Ensapa et al. -

i thought you were simply naive but i'm sorry to say that i can't help but feel you're being disingenuous now.

i will be delighted if and when the DL "unbans" the practice and will immediately stop speaking out against him, as will all the WSS etc., as they have stated repeatedly.

until then i will use all means at my disposal to discredit and disempower him, this being the only course of action he has left me with, not having agreed to engage in any debate or discussion.

this has got nothing to do with hatred.  you see hatred and an anti-Dalai Lama agenda where there is none.  stop being wilfully stupid.  we do not hate the Dalai Lama; we are trying to stop him from creating any more division and destruction to this holy lineage for the sake of all our kind mothers - yes, including him.

of all those he's harming, he's harming himself the worst.