Author Topic: What's up with the Noob's?  (Read 37624 times)

DharmaDefender

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 988
Re: What's up with the Noob's?
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2010, 01:41:54 PM »
I deny the 'wisdombeing' association actually! I don't have any reason to lie - I happily admitted to being gazoksas :) I gotta find somewhere to write, that won't censor my views, don't I? ;D if comments cannot be made freely, then it doesn't allow for debate.

Wow you guys are really anti-moderate view. I don't see what's wrong with NOT wanting to take a stance because perhaps I don't know enough about the issue which (like I've previously pointed out) I'm here to learn about without accusations of being someone else!

ever dared say that his Gurus are WRONG, yes, with this tone, WRONG, and he, right;



a friend, can you please explain this video to me in the context of what you've said above? Because I don't understand how Trijang Rinpoche is allowed to practise, and no one else is?  ??? Thank you in advance.

Small | Large

emptymountains

  • Guest
Re: What's up with the Noob's?
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2010, 01:49:26 PM »
Why is it, then, that iloveds just tried to post another comment to my blog, again from the same IP address as wisdombeing and gazaksos (i.e., dharmadefender).

No other comments being posted to my blog show up with that IP address, not even the test one I just did for myself.

Dharmadefender, STOP LYING!

DharmaDefender

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 988
Re: What's up with the Noob's?
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2010, 02:10:04 PM »
How am I supposed to know? (by the way, please spell my name correctly)

You can say and believe what you want mate, but I'm leaving this particular conversation as is because I didn't come on to defend myself, I came on to learn about Dorje Shugden so I know how to defend him. If you want to help someone (i.e. me) learn so they know how to respond to anti-DS people, great, you have my deepest thanks but what you guys are doing at the moment is flaming people you've never met, simply because they have an opinion you dislike.

In-fighting is what's ruining Buddhism at the moment - my opinion is we don't really need to add fuel to that fire via this forum.

emptymountains

  • Guest
Re: What's up with the Noob's?
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2010, 02:14:22 PM »
And I have no patience for people's delusions: mine, the Dalai Lama's, or yours.

Ensapa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4124
    • Email
Re: What's up with the Noob's?
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2010, 02:20:19 PM »
hmm its interesting to see all the anti Dalai Lama things going on in this thread. You'd think Dorje Shudgen would stand for this? Or in reality he dosent mind because he's a Buddha?

From how i see it hating HHDL and hating Dorje Shudgen is the same thing; they both work for the Dharma in their own way, and us hating HHDL the way his supporters hate Dorje Shudgen makes us equal to the haters of Dorje Shudgen as well.

any form of hate/lack of patience is destroying Glorious Dorje Shudgen's practice because it sends the message to others that Dorje Shudgen practitioners are irrational and spiteful.

is that what you want to cultivate?

I am pretty sure, the heart that he is holding in his hand is the heart that is full of hatred.

emptymountains

  • Guest
Re: What's up with the Noob's?
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2010, 03:00:01 PM »
Hey, Ensapa, what's your IP address?  :P I see you registered on the same day as DharmaDefender.

It was Shantideva who said to have no patience with delusions.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 03:07:12 PM by emptymountains »

Lineageholder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
Re: What's up with the Noob's?
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2010, 04:06:14 PM »
From how i see it hating HHDL and hating Dorje Shudgen is the same thing; they both work for the Dharma in their own way, and us hating HHDL the way his supporters hate Dorje Shudgen makes us equal to the haters of Dorje Shudgen as well.

Dear Ensapa,

So, you're another new emanation!

Why do you feel the need to post the same stuff under so many different names?  Are you afraid of being in the minority?  :)

We don't hate the Dalai Lama, but to claim that the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are performing the same function is the root of your wrong view.  To use a 'Pabongkha-ism', it's like comparing a lame horse with a thoroughbred stallion.

How can you claim that someone who is harming others is a Dharma practitioner, much less a Buddha?  If you check, the greatness of the Dharma in these times is due to Dorje Shugden protecting Trijang Rinpoche and the precious Dharma of Je Tsongkhapa which has spread throughout the West since 1959.  On the other hand, all the Dalai Lama has done is make a big name for himself using his Guru's teachings, persecute his Guru's disciples and squabble over Tibetan politics, having totally failed to serve his people or accomplish the goals of Tibetan independence or autonomy they all long for.  You may say that his failure to accomplish his political goals are not his fault, but he certainly has choice over how he promotes or suppresses Dorje Shugden practice and he's obviously made the wrong choice.

These are the facts, not hatred. See things as they are, not as you'd like them to be.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 04:09:00 PM by Lineageholder »

Atishas cook

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 87
Re: What's up with the Noob's?
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2010, 04:49:07 PM »
back in the day i mulled over beggar's theory for a while, but in the end, whether you want to hold such a view or not it makes no difference to how we should act:  the Dalai Lama, for whatever reason (and frankly i have no idea myself) is *unquestionably* acting to destroy his and our holy lineage; his methods are completely despicable and the results are appalling.  this is a fact.  therefore, whether he's as thoroughly deluded as he appears or in reality a Buddha (engaged in some *very* deep cover black op.s!), the *only* suitable course of action is to oppose him, as strongly and vehemently as may be necessary to stop him.  in my view this means, right now, to render him impotent by destroying his reputation.  that *is* my aim; all attempts at peaceful actions and debate having failed, now is the time for wrathful actions.

personally, i have chosen even to go so far as to insult him, knowing full well how shocking and potentially divisive that action may be to the noobs and the chattering classes: it is, imho, Right Speech when it's motivated by the compassionate intention to preserve this holy lineage for the benefit of this and future generations.  my job as a practitioner is to watch my mind while engaged in these wrathful actions and try to oppose the delusions that arise, and to watch carefully the apparent external results to judge how and when it may be appropriate to soften or harden my tone.

i think you, sir or madam, posting under so many names, are completely naive in this matter.  even if he *is* a Buddha (which i disagree with, but for the sake of argument...), he's not *acting* like one from the point of view of ordinary perception and so the correct action - the action this Buddha too wishes us to undertake - is to oppose him by all means necessary.  that means to take away his power, his reputation.

crazycloud

  • Guest
Re: What's up with the Noob's?
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2010, 05:41:48 PM »

As one of the noobs I assume you're talking about, I agree with you - there probably is a lack of clarity in my views, hence why I joined the forum, to expand my knowledge. I'm getting pretty fed up of people criticising our Protector, talking badly about high lamas and at the same time, being very disrespectful to His Holiness.

Hey there DD-

Sorry if I kicked off a fuss here, I meant noob kind of teasing /affectionately, not particularly disparagingly, please don't be discouraged if people are tough on you! Ha ha!

Anyway, everyone is here because we've had it with the DL. (I don't refer to him as "His Holiness" because I find that mawkish and overblown, and I don't find him to be particularly holy, no offense intended...)

oh sorry, you have had it with people criticizing our protector and also criticizing the DL. I fist thought you were saying you had had it with the DL criticizing our protector, which made sense to me.

It doesn't make sense to me that we should not criticize Mr DL, because his actions have invited this criticism. Why should anyone criticize the protector? Really no reason for it, so I'm not into that, but can we criticize the DL? Sure. For example, I was there at any protest I could make it to, shouting for the DL to stop lying. Why? Because he is lying. Of course I can prove this. Is it disrespectful to call someone out on a lie? I really don't see how that follows.MAybe you would have preferred that we discussed our differences in other ways, such as privately, and of course, so would we. Trust, it was hot out there, and yelling at the DL does not generally increase ones popularity given that the DL is uncritically and for no good reason regarded by the masses as the incarnation of perfection itself.

Unfortunately, after years of trying a more concilliatory approach, we were denied at every turn by the Dalai Lama. The choices left to us were to be quiet and allow it, or speak up. We chose the latter.

If you think that means we were disrespecting this person of great holiness, then you will not find many allies here, except for the ones you came in with. For the record, to me this does not mean that YOU should be quiet, I encourage you to voice your views here, if that is your wish. I am all for dissent and discussion, and would never try to shut you up. In fact, for a long time I held the view that you hold now, and I remember how painful it was to me to try to hold this view and to try to make sense of what was happening from this tortured perspective in which everything had to be good, and argument or disagreement were to be avoided at all costs.

In any case, I generally expect people to earn respect, and the DL gets precious little from me. I think he is a confused person trying unite politics and Dharma, but giving politics the upper hand. To my view, his project is doomed, and i will do my best to  prevent him from taking our lineage along on his ride down.


Anyway, I think the "keep quiet and focus on our practice" advice applies more to those vehemently against or for the practice because there's just no balance in those views and it doesn't serve anyone. In fact, for a lot of newbies who have just come in on the issue, it becomes even more confusing and might even turn them away from Buddhism (just look at A Great Deception - if that was the first 'dharma' book I read, I wouldn't want to be Buddhist).

This is a good point, and bears discussion, and has been discussed for a long time here, which is why you see many responses to your posts that run "THAT old argument again....!"

Those who are "vehemently for" will not be quiet because to be vehemently for the practices of one's lineage is what is is to be a Buddhist, in my view. I think you miss the middle way by a mile if you think that we need balance in terms of accepting or rejecting the views of our spiritual guides. As for those who are vehemently against, I agree, they should keep quiet and focus on their practice, as our practice has nothing to do with them, and of course, does not harm them in any way.

You know what? Very good point re "If DL pretends to make war, we should do the same." - I never thought about it that way! That's definitely something I'll keep in mind...

Yeah, cool, I though it was a good point too. To me, this is where your argument gets all foggy. It seems that this conflict is spreading the dharma of our protector throughout the world, etc etc , multiple exclamation points hooray etc. and yet you don't want ot participate in it. Does that make sense? It seems like even you don't take your view seriously, and the result is that others don't either.

Why wouldn't your motivation be pure? This conflict spreads the dharma, DL is Avalokita, he (wink wink) opposes the practice...go on, tell him he's wrong! give him an argument that he can shoot down so you can make another point....maybe we can get in Newsweek again!

Headline: "Buddhists are insane, and they worship spirits! Dalai lama is a political monster, and the Dorje Shugdens are a murderous ghould worshipping cult! long live the Dharma!.....Next up, Brad and Angelina area actually Zombies from outer space."

Surely this is good for the holy Dharma of Buddha Shakayamuni and Je Tsongkhapa? So go on.....

But of course you don't, which gives lie to the idea that you believe that th is conflict is helpful.
Am I misrepresenting your views? Perhaps it is just The Holy One who should spread the news, Dorje Shugden is an evil wraith, did you hear? Purge the monasteries! Anyone following the tradition of their spiritual guide must break, if they were DS followers. we'll keep quiet, and gradually our practice will disappear. First from the Tibetan world, then gradually as we become pariahs, for m the western world as well.

well, It's not going to happen. Not while we have breath.

So, if the conflict should stop, only one person can stop it. Perhaps this seems extreme to you, and that I am not taking both sides into account, but I challenge you to make a coherent case for this view, because it can't be done. It is sentimental fiddle-faddle.

So do. Keep it in mind. In fact, have a good think about it, and report you findings, I find the discussion enlivening.

but it doesn't mean I'll ever talk bad about the Dalai Lama. I can't, the karmic reprecussion for me would be too great because I don't know if my motivation is pure! (I can say it's pure but whether it really is, is a different story!) Likewise for those who criticise him, perhaps?

You write as though some one were trying to make YOU speak out against the DL. Where are you getting this idea? Sounds like you have a spiritual guide and a practice, so off you go! If you don't want to say the DL is naughty, by all means, keep your head down. But don't be surprised if you meet some ...uh, strong responses here when you try to encourage others to keep their voices down.

ok, nice rhetorical move in that last sentence. You can't talk bad about the DL becasue you don't know that your motivations are pure. The karmic repercussions might be terrible in that case.....those who critcize him perhaps also don't know if their motivations are pure...hmmmmm.... it's all a bit ....subtle...let's just state it out clearly shall we?

"Even though you may SAY your motives are pure, whether they are or not is different story, really you can't know. If you don't know if you have pure motives and you criticize The Holiness, the kamic repercussions could be terrible. so be quiet. for your own sake."

how's that, ok?

I think you haven't taken into account that Buddhists who protest the most famous Buddhist figure in the world have, or course, thought through the karma of it. Don't be condescending, please. Our karma is ours, yours is yours. If you fear for us, pray for us. I for one will take any help I can get. For most, our own spiritual Guides have blessed our endeavors, either directly or tacitly by not trying to stop them, which they could in an instant by moving thier little finger. We actually respect our spiritual teachers.

I have heard that Dagom Rinpoche said that The DL is sick and requires a great healing of the mind. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso clearly is ok with his students protesting, he asked them to. Some of the gang from Trijang Buddhist institute, including Lamas, tulkus and Geshes were there, protesting away. The Gangchen crew seems to be down..has your teacher asked you to keep quiet? If so, please follow his advice, but don't worry about us, and please don't try to silence us.

Trijang Dorjechang, your own lama's guru, who according to Zong Rinpoche is the "director of us all," said that "Even these days, some suspect those who rely upon and propitiate Gyalchen of conjusring ghosts, but it is the babbling talk of those who dont understand the definitive meaning."

I don't know about you, but I feel that. All the way in my gut.

In fact, for a lot of newbies who have just come in on the issue, it becomes even more confusing and might even turn them away from Buddhism (just look at A Great Deception - if that was the first 'dharma' book I read, I wouldn't want to be Buddhist).

hey, I'm with you on that one. the whole thing is disturbing and confusing for the noobs. I myself spent many years with my underwear all in a knot over it, scared to engage in practice and trust my Spiritual Guide, too connected to my teachers and in love with the dharma to leave and find a new teacher. Years. Literally, years. Sometimes weeping in confusion, so trust me , I get it.

what I have come to see through my investigations (years....literally) is that those who meet the book early in their career either won't care (I was so surprised to see that many people have very little investment in the DL, what they want is the DHARMA) or will struggle like me. Perhaps they will be put off the Gelug tradition, so they'll go find a nice Nyingma lama, hopefully a nonpolitical one who is not bound to TGIE, and practice away. To my mind, that's fantastic. Perhaps a lovely Skaya or Kagyu teacher is for them, maybe Zen or Shambhala, maybe pure land..... but in general, it won't stop them wanting to be Buddhists, so no worries there.

If it is confusing for them,then that is a shame, but again, there is no solution in allowing the Ganden tradition to be destroyed. I think the solution is for the Dalai Lama to....stop lying, and to give religious freedom. That he does not is the part that is really confusing, if you think about it.

all the best! :)

crazycloud

  • Guest
Re: What's up with the Noob's?
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2010, 05:58:09 PM »
HA HA! How did this view that DS rescued the DL just to protect Trijang Rinpoche become gospel in a day or so? It's an interepretation of one sentence from Trijang Rinpoche

"In answer, he said that since the enemies of the teachings, the Chinese Communists, intended to soon carry out evil plans, that not only was it of the utmost importance that the Dalai Lama and ourselves secretly leave for India, but that I, especially, could not remain in Tibet because I was so high-profile.  He also said that it was very important to warn the Dalai Lama, that he would have to go and that there would definitely come a moment when he would be able to go. "

and it is one of many possible. for example, perhaps Dorje Shugden still had hopes the The DL would be a beneficial person. Things are of course not predetermined, that's why wise Lamas like Trijang invested so much (and, by his own statement, was so disappointed by DL's decisions)

If we start speaking as if we knowe why DS did this or that even though we actually have no idea, our arguments will be less and less well founded, and will appear like "truth-making" to others.

not only was it OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE of the DL to make it out, but Trijang especially must make it out because of his high profile. In other words, he would likely be tortured to death. It doesn't say, it is of utmost importance that Trijang R makes it out, and the best way to accomplish that is to get the DL to go. This is an interpretation, and a hopeful one at that.

my pennies.

crazycloud

  • Guest
Re: What's up with the Noob's?
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2010, 06:07:10 PM »
BTW, i know who the noobs are (at least some), and they are at least two, mates, so stop saying they are the same person. same ip means same computer, not same person. g'day!

emptymountains

  • Guest
Re: What's up with the Noob's?
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2010, 08:13:33 PM »
Crazycloud,

Weren't you the one who started this thread? If you already knew they were all using the same computer, why plant the seeds of suspicion?

 ???

crazycloud

  • Guest
Re: What's up with the Noob's?
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2010, 08:19:05 PM »
Crazycloud,

Weren't you the one who started this thread? If you already knew they were all using the same computer, why plant the seeds of suspicion?

 ???

I did start the thread, have subsequently discovered who some of them are, and found out they were using the same computer by reading it here.

btw, of course I will not revel anyone's identity, people's privacy is their own business.

Moreover, I do not necessarily think there is anything wrong with a bunch of people sharing a view and joining a forum in order to make a case for that view. I was just trying to point out that something is going on, and we need to keep an eye... in particular, I think we should watch our speech, as newer people may not be able to differentiate strong words from anger. One may feel "that is their problem," but if these are our vajra brothers and sisters, we should look out for them.

Not to censor, of course, but try to make sure you put in a few words to let people know they are welcome, whatever their view, and that they are respected. UNless of course it is a bunch of sock puppets come here to cause discord, in which case "Off with their socks!" I mean heads....! I mean...whatever.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 08:25:03 PM by crazycloud »

spacelike

  • Guest
Re: What's up with the Noob's?
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2010, 10:09:31 PM »
HA HA! How did this view that DS rescued the DL just to protect Trijang Rinpoche become gospel in a day or so? It's an interepretation of one sentence from Trijang Rinpoche

"In answer, he said that since the enemies of the teachings, the Chinese Communists, intended to soon carry out evil plans, that not only was it of the utmost importance that the Dalai Lama and ourselves secretly leave for India, but that I, especially, could not remain in Tibet because I was so high-profile.  He also said that it was very important to warn the Dalai Lama, that he would have to go and that there would definitely come a moment when he would be able to go. "

and it is one of many possible. for example, perhaps Dorje Shugden still had hopes the The DL would be a beneficial person. Things are of course not predetermined, that's why wise Lamas like Trijang invested so much (and, by his own statement, was so disappointed by DL's decisions)

If we start speaking as if we knowe why DS did this or that even though we actually have no idea, our arguments will be less and less well founded, and will appear like "truth-making" to others.

not only was it OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE of the DL to make it out, but Trijang especially must make it out because of his high profile. In other words, he would likely be tortured to death. It doesn't say, it is of utmost importance that Trijang R makes it out, and the best way to accomplish that is to get the DL to go. This is an interpretation, and a hopeful one at that.

my pennies.

In addition to this point I'm also wondering whether it is safe to assume that the words/actions of any oracle claimed to be a Shugden oracle can be automatically assumed to be the actual words or actions of the holy Protector himself?

Give the obvious potential for abusing the oracle system (we DS practitioners are on the receiving end of one such case), surely it may not be a safe assumption, especially if, on the basis of such assumption, we're going to start trying to figure out DS' motivation and feelings towards DL by piecing together accounts of various oracular pronouncements.

I realize many people have had very helpful and beneficial encounters with Dorje Shugden oracles and i'm not suggesting that these aren't qualified and pure - I'm just questioning whether 'the oracle said it' is automatically a valid reason to prove 'this is how Dorje Shugden views the situation'.  Especially if we weren't even there!

I know the Trijang Rinpoche account is 100% reliable, but I'm just talking generally.

Middleway

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 87
Re: What's up with the Noob's?
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2010, 04:07:10 AM »
I love the Dalai Lama. That's one reason why I stand up & shout 'STOP LYING!'. Isn't that what a kind person does for someone they care about who is acting badly, when all else fails? Has anyone ever stood up to the DL since people started worshipping him when he was 3?  Maybe Venerable Trijang.  I imagine the poor DL didn't have the benefit of being told off when he was naughty (except maybe by his tutors again). This current compassionate telling off may be over 70 years too late, but better late than never. Then there's the compassion for all the living beings who are suffering because of his persecution and all others in samsara we can not help if our lineage is destroyed... It's compassion all round really! No one's excluded.

On a related note, one of the first arguments I heard against the demo's was that we were engaging in 'wrong speech'. 'if your lama's knew what they were talking about they would have told you this' someone said to me. I wasn't in a position to respond, but I knew the answer: 'if your lama's knew what they were talking about they would have told you right speech depends principally on your intention, not the volume of your voice or your choice of words.' Neither is virtue measured by wearing robes, holding a title, or even necessarily by speaking Dharma. If the mind behind those actions of body & speech is deluded, then the action is 'wrong'. As has already been pointed out in this thread, aversion to volume and hard words may just be self cherishing. The DL plays up to this simplistic naive view of the world with his easy to digest political / spiritual sound bites. The whole 'the DL is working with DS' thing stinks of such soporific platitudes. As has also been expressed here, if 'that' theory is true then it is still apropriate to protest. It is my belief that if any individual really had a profound enough realisation of pure view to genuinely hold the DL as a pure being, they'd also have the wisdom to keep that view to themselves, seeing (amongst other things) that propogating it openly would just feed the mistaken view of those who grasp at Buddhism as being the exclusive realm of people who display rigid external criteria. Those criteria may broadly apply, but without understanding the real importance of the underlying intention such views can degenerate the Dharma by supporting blind faith & the development of attachment. Those are minds which have helped us get into this mess & so need to be avoided, not encouraged. Be careful good hearted but naive would be mediators! If you wait 'till the persecutors are knocking at your door you may find your 'pure' views don't protect you from suffering - a sure sign that you never truly held such pure view at all.