Author Topic: Did Dorje Shugden in 1959 help or EXPEL the Dalai Lama from Tibet?  (Read 7186 times)

Harold Musetescu

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We all know the story of how Dorje Shugden in 1959 helped the 14th Dalai Lama. Trijang Rinpoche ask the then Panglung Kuten to go into trance and asked Dorje Shugden how to help the Dalai Lama leave Tibet. Dorje Shugden told him to go via the "Southern Gate" and enter India, which the 14th Dalai Lama did.

There is another lesser know version of this story. That version is that Dorje Shugden did not help the Dalai Lama escape from Tibet into India. What Dorje Shugden did in fact was EXPEL the 14th Dalai Lama from Tibet.
Dorje Shugden's intent was to expel the D.L. so that he would never return to Tibet in this life time nor his next.

We believe Dorje Shugden to be an "Enlightened Being" who has the power to see into the future. Dorje Shugden did see into the future and what he saw was all the pain and suffering the followers of Dorje Shugden would suffer at the hands of this monster. By expelling the Dalai Lama he would never be able to directly hurt the followers of Dorje Shugden in Tibet. In the future the there would be two 15th Dalai Lama's and the Tibetan Dalai Lama would insure the flourishing of the teachings of Dorje Shugden. The anti Dorje Shugden "Indian" 15th Dalai Lama would lose all his power in Tibet. The Chinese government have now made it a crime to try and stop the practice of Dorje Shugden in Tibet.

The 14th Dalai Lama was given a one way ticket out of Tibet by Dorje Shugden. This monster will never see Tibet again and he will never have any true power there ever again.

So you can believe that Dorje Shugden helped the Dalai Lama escape Tibet. Or you can believe that Dorje Shugden secretly expelled the Dalai Lama in 1959.

DharmaDefender

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Re: Did Dorje Shugden in 1959 help or EXPEL the Dalai Lama from Tibet?
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2016, 09:44:25 PM »
Thanks mate for sharing yer thoughts. Deffo an interesting perspective and yours is a question thatll be answered differently based on who you ask. Expulsion is a possibility but for my own persons, I find that view problematic because:

  • I am pretty sure as an enlightened being, Shugden is not going to discriminate the sufferings of Dorje Shugden practitioners versus those of non-Shugden practitioners. He would not choose one lot of people over another. If that were the case, then it would be difficult to say hes enlightened, would it not?
  • by protecting Dorje Shugden followers in Tibet, thousands of others outside Tibet were put at risk
  • we have heard stories from monks who were in the Chushi Gangdruk and entourage with the Dalai Lama who speak of Dorje Shugden manifesting miracles. For example, why manifest a cloud to hang over the escaping party, to hide them from the view of overheard Communist planes, if it wouldve just been easier for them to be spotted and killed? Then this ban wouldve never come about in the first place and Shugden practitioners inside and outside Tibet would be protected?

Anyhoo. Despite my opinions, I think its futile FOR ME to speculate on these matters since I lack the facts to come to a firm conclusion. So I tend to err on the side of Dorje Shugden guiding the Dalai Lama out, since that is the version supported by Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche and his people. Much safer since their lot in the midst of it all.

Have to ask though, whered you hear this expulsion version from? First Ive ever heard of it. Not discounting that it could be possible but Ive never heard anyone else come to that conclusion before, least of all the Tibetans.

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Did Dorje Shugden in 1959 help or EXPEL the Dalai Lama from Tibet?
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2016, 02:23:50 AM »
A kuten.

grandmapele

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Re: Did Dorje Shugden in 1959 help or EXPEL the Dalai Lama from Tibet?
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2016, 08:47:54 AM »
Anyway, it's all academic now. Good or damage, it is done. I would like to believe that Dorje Shugden did not err in sending the Dalai Lama to India, for whatever reasons.

The fact of the matter here is that the Dalai Lama survived the trek to Nepal and escape possible death in the attack on Potala palace in 1959. He might not have survived the attack, he might have survived and ruled Tibet under the thumb of China. that is pure speculation now.

Why expel when the Dalai Lama could have been left in the palace and left to meet his fate? Whatever, however, the fact of the matter is that he is alive and have instituted a ban on the practice of Dorje Shugden. It is our role here and now to help bring the ban to the knowledge of the West and the world, to help in the effort to lift the ban. It is also for our own knowledge and training to learn more about the Dharma and Dorje Shugden to be able to differentiate what is the truth in Dharma and not be sheep following another sheep.

Someone once told me that hind sight is perfect eyesight. That's for people like me without clairvoyance. *sigh*



Rowntree

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Re: Did Dorje Shugden in 1959 help or EXPEL the Dalai Lama from Tibet?
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2016, 04:23:26 AM »
 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

I believe Dorje Shugden has helped the Dalai Lama to escape and making Tibetan Buddhism available for all. Otherwise, it would mean that Dorje Shugden is unenlightened and do favouritism that is aligned with your thought about the Dalai Lama and all his "monstrous" actions. If you believe the Dalai Lama is unenlightened, it is understandable that he takes favouritism and what have you, but not for enlightened Dorje Shugden.

In addition, if you have learned about the various prophecies on how Tibetan Buddhism will travel to the west to benefit, Dorje Shugden is definitely an important element we should take into consideration.

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Did Dorje Shugden in 1959 help or EXPEL the Dalai Lama from Tibet?
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2016, 09:50:41 AM »
To Rowntree

The greatest teaching the 14th Dalai Lama has given us is that he is an UNENLIGHTENED BEING.
He has taught us to be very careful in throwing around words like ENLIGHTENED BEING.
Dorje Shugden expelled the Dalai Lama so his true UNENLIGHTENED nature would be revealed in OUR FUTURE.
Dorje Shugden's ENLIGHTENMENT was to show all of us the Dalai Lama's UNENLIGHTENED NATURE.
Dorje Shugden's ENLIGHTENMENT was to show all of us Sakya Trizin's UNENLIGHTENED NATURE.
These are but a few examples of Dorje Shugden's ENLIGHTENED NATURE.

michaela

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Re: Did Dorje Shugden in 1959 help or EXPEL the Dalai Lama from Tibet?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2016, 02:58:41 PM »
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

I believe Dorje Shugden has helped the Dalai Lama to escape and making Tibetan Buddhism available for all. Otherwise, it would mean that Dorje Shugden is unenlightened and do favouritism that is aligned with your thought about the Dalai Lama and all his "monstrous" actions. If you believe the Dalai Lama is unenlightened, it is understandable that he takes favouritism and what have you, but not for enlightened Dorje Shugden.

In addition, if you have learned about the various prophecies on how Tibetan Buddhism will travel to the west to benefit, Dorje Shugden is definitely an important element we should take into consideration.

Dear Rowtree

I agree with you.  Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being and the Dalai Lama is also an enlightened being. No matter how difficult and unbelievable the circumstance currently is, I will never lose faith in both the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden.  Please take a look at Music Delighting written by the previous Trijang Rinpoche before the ban was implemented. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche already predicted that the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden would manifest conflict but they actually working together to spread the Dharma.  Therefore, we should not go against either the Dalai Lama or Dorje Shugden.

Michaela




 

SabS

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Re: Did Dorje Shugden in 1959 help or EXPEL the Dalai Lama from Tibet?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2016, 05:11:03 PM »
Hmm its an interesting perspective to think that Dorje Shugden is actually expelling the Dalai Lama instead of helping him escape. It would seem the ban on Dorje Shugden is the revenge of the Dalai Lama for his current condition, a refugee and having to live off the goodwill of others.

However, I believe that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being and would do what is best for Je Tsongkapa's teachings to spread. As such, with the Dalai Lama remaining in Tibet, many attained Lamas and monks would have stayed on too. The invasion would have certainly kill off the dharma thus not what Protector Dorje Shugden would have wanted. So in this case, I tend to believe that Dorje Shugden actually saved the Dalai Lama and the many attained Lamas to enable the spread of Tibetan Buddhism to the world, as it has. This is the simplest view of mine.

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Did Dorje Shugden in 1959 help or EXPEL the Dalai Lama from Tibet?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2016, 05:32:35 PM »
To Michaela

Did you read my post on "The 5th Dalai Lama engaged in Human Sacrifices"?

Does enlightened activity on the part of the Dalai Lama's Lineage included the practice of "HUMAN SACRIFICES" TO A MONGOLIAN WAR GOD??

Michaela do you really endorse the "HUMAN SACRIFICES"done by the 5th Dalai Lama?

DharmaDefender

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Re: Did Dorje Shugden in 1959 help or EXPEL the Dalai Lama from Tibet?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2016, 10:24:22 PM »
A kuten.

Which one? Would help to know because as far as I know, not all of em can be trusted. Heard stories about Tseringma being slapped for saying a tulku had broken his vows and stories about some oracles with broken samaya giving wrong answers. Trehor Gyalpon too, only trusted certain oracles even if they were supposedly channeling the same deities.

Anyway, it's all academic now. Good or damage, it is done. I would like to believe that Dorje Shugden did not err in sending the Dalai Lama to India, for whatever reasons.

Thanks for stating the obvious but sometimes speculation can help to discern the truth of what happened so people can be educated about the facts. So you contradict. Your first paragraph criticises speculation but your third speaks of raising awareness about the ban. Learning about the truth of what happened is a part of that process and it requires a certain degree of speculation I should think.

psylotripitaka

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Re: Did Dorje Shugden in 1959 help or EXPEL the Dalai Lama from Tibet?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2016, 10:38:52 PM »
The skillful means of Dorje Shugden and his retinue is multi-faceted, and multi-dimensional, therefore it is not merely black and white, both reasons presented in the title of this thread are amongst many other reasons, some of which have been mentioned over the years on this site and in this forum.


dsnowlion

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Re: Did Dorje Shugden in 1959 help or EXPEL the Dalai Lama from Tibet?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2016, 12:41:37 AM »
The skillful means of Dorje Shugden and his retinue is multi-faceted, and multi-dimensional, therefore it is not merely black and white, both reasons presented in the title of this thread are amongst many other reasons, some of which have been mentioned over the years on this site and in this forum.

This I agree! And really interesting perspective Mr. Harold have there... I suppose you would adopt this theory if you choose to believe that Dalai Lama is a "monster" and not Chenrezig. And it would raise questions like... so you mean to say HH Trijang Rinpoche and HH Ling Rinpoche did not see this monster hidden in monks robes calling himself Dalai Lama and them teachings and caring for Him? And you mean this monster happened to fool all the rest of the high Lamas? I find quite hard to believe. And as much as I enjoyed reading Harold's suggested views, I don't buy it sorry. But what you say about having two Dalai Lamas - India and China is definitely going to be an interesting outcome and what if both were not monster but Chenrezig manifesting to benefit both sides... anything's possible.

grandmapele

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Re: Did Dorje Shugden in 1959 help or EXPEL the Dalai Lama from Tibet?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2016, 02:30:59 AM »
Well, DharmaDefender, we can always speculate. Not sure if knowledge comes under speculation. As I've always stated, I'm not very bright.

Is knowing facts the same as speculating? Why do I want to speculate about the reasons for the ban? If the Dalai Lama gives spurious reasons, I either agree or disagree. Are the origins of the Dharma Protector something to speculate on? Was the report on the trek of the Dalai Lama and his retinue out of Tibet mere speculation? Does that mean that the so-called thangka that was supposed to be carried by the Dalai Lama while escaping mere speculation? So, whatever that we read about is speculation? So,  whatever we were informed about Dorje Shugden have elements of speculation about it? That's not very reassuring is it? So, that calls for a very high dose of extreme faith in cultism.


Harold Musetescu

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Re: Did Dorje Shugden in 1959 help or EXPEL the Dalai Lama from Tibet?
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2016, 04:00:20 AM »
To dsnowlion

These High Lamas would have known the truth about this "MONSTER". But do you really think them foolish enough to say anything publicly about the "MONSTER".

This "MONSTER" who could have your eyes gouged out our your tongue cut out of your mouth if you displeased him.

This "MONSTER" THAT CREATED PRAYERS TO INVOKE A MONGOLIAN WAR GOD TO SLAUGHTER HIS TIBETAN RIVALS.

This "MONSTER" that engaged in "HUMAN SACRIFICES" OF CAPTURED PRISONERS WHO WERE SAKYA MONKS.

This "MONSTER" who if this was 300 years ago would have YOU,ME and the other followers of Dorje Shugden become "HUMAN SACRIFICES" to his MONGOLIAN WAR GOD.

A CIA paid "MONSTER" who was the head of a CIA MERCENARY ARMY OF 2000 MEN.

This "MONSTER" who executed H.H. Demo Tulku by having his still alive body stuffed into a barrel, the lid placed on it and then poured water through a hole into it until he drowned.

This "MONSTER" who came into power backed by Gushri Khan and his Mongolian Army.

This "MONSTER" who overthrew the then leader of Tibet, His Holiness Sakya Trizin.

This "MONSTER" that DESTROYED the Jonangpa Sect.

Sorry dsnowlion but when it comes to your claims about this "MONSTER" being and enlightened being,"I DON'T BUY IT SORRY".

psylotripitaka

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Re: Did Dorje Shugden in 1959 help or EXPEL the Dalai Lama from Tibet?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2016, 06:16:52 AM »
To dsnowlion

These High Lamas would have known the truth about this "MONSTER". But do you really think them foolish enough to say anything publicly about the "MONSTER".

This "MONSTER" who could have your eyes gouged out our your tongue cut out of your mouth if you displeased him.

This "MONSTER" THAT CREATED PRAYERS TO INVOKE A MONGOLIAN WAR GOD TO SLAUGHTER HIS TIBETAN RIVALS.

This "MONSTER" that engaged in "HUMAN SACRIFICES" OF CAPTURED PRISONERS WHO WERE SAKYA MONKS.

This "MONSTER" who if this was 300 years ago would have YOU,ME and the other followers of Dorje Shugden become "HUMAN SACRIFICES" to his MONGOLIAN WAR GOD.

A CIA paid "MONSTER" who was the head of a CIA MERCENARY ARMY OF 2000 MEN.

This "MONSTER" who executed H.H. Demo Tulku by having his still alive body stuffed into a barrel, the lid placed on it and then poured water through a hole into it until he drowned.

This "MONSTER" who came into power backed by Gushri Khan and his Mongolian Army.

This "MONSTER" who overthrew the then leader of Tibet, His Holiness Sakya Trizin.

This "MONSTER" that DESTROYED the Jonangpa Sect.

Sorry dsnowlion but when it comes to your claims about this "MONSTER" being and enlightened being,"I DON'T BUY IT SORRY".

Very well played Harold, I agree. To be fair though, and my goodness this subject has been excessively discussed in this forum, there are two (probably more) specific views which give another spin on the Dalai Lama.

My personal view is that he appears to me to be a sentient being engaged in harmful and inappropriate actions that completely disqualify him as a valid teacher and Buddhist, so I train in love and compassion for this suffering sentient being because the negative karma he has created is very heavy. In fact, there is no heavier negative karma than abandoning and disparaging the Guru and his lineage. However, this leads me to the next point.

People who have taken him as a Guru, understanding the dangers of abandoning and disparaging their Guru, and therefore choose not to abandon or disparage the Dalai Lama because of this. They fight respectfully to lift the ban, but they do not disparage, and while I do respect this approach, because he has abandoned and disparaged his lineage and Gurus and continuously acts in contradiction to the Dharma, practically and conventionally speaking he has disqualified himself as a valid teacher and his students would be wise to distance themselves from receiving further teachings and instead seek teachings from teachers that show the aspect of being qualified by the conventions of both society in general and Buddhist society especially. Some can do this easily, but others, especially those deeply entrenched in his community whether in India or abroad such as international FPMT practitioners for instance, it is very complicated. But those who can should, but this doesn't mean they have to lose pure view, it is merely that it is possible to acknowledge the aspect being shown and to respond accordingly, so if a Lama is engaged in criminal behavior, they need to be held accountable. This is specifically speaking to his students who have a commitment to maintain pure view, and in fairness, it is important to respect their commitment to that.

Also, there are various teachings and things even within the Kangso sadhana itself that prove that:

1) Unless we are a Buddha, we do not know for certain who is and is not a Buddha
2) That Buddhas can appear or emanate anything
3) That we may in fact be the last sentient being, and the entire world and its inhabitants has been emanated for us to develop great compassion, without which we cannot become a Buddha.

To develop compassion for someone we conceive to be a Buddha is called 'wrong compassion', because a Buddha cannot suffer, otherwise many absurd consequences follow. So, in order to not have wrong compassion, although we have the understanding it could be an emanation, we drop this conception of them being an emanation and focus more acutely on the aspect that is appearing.

I am now speaking to those who do not conceive the Dalai Lama as a Buddha, who do not have a commitment to maintain pure view of their Guru, the Dalai Lama:

So what aspect is the Dalai Lama appearing as? Well, do I really even need to go into it? Just read Harold's list, think about Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings, then tell me whether or not these are the actions of a person following the Buddhist way of life or of a person qualified to be a Buddhist teacher. If you have abandoned your Guru and disparaged his lineage, it is a fact, according to the Lamrim, Sutras, Tantras, Dohas of the Mahasiddhas, and many commentaries, that such a person is not a suitable vessel to transmit lineage blessings.

So, what is the most appropriate response to this according to Dharma? Out of love and compassion, to take actions that accord with the basic laws of human and Buddhist society, call it for what it is, remove such a person from office, and subject them to the same criminal laws of justice that apply to us all.

For the person who regards him as a Buddha, it is not necessary to abandon pure view of your Guru nor does it follow that you have abandoned it if you were to take the same actions as the person above motivated by love and compassion. Rather than compassion for your Guru, while believing his actions are pure, you must relate to the conventional aspect he is showing which is teaching you the path of abandonment, and out of compassion for the sentient beings suffering as a result of such actions, take action to remove him from his position and subject him to the laws of society. Since you yourself believe he is a Buddha, you need not worry that incarceration will cause him suffering, right? He will experience nothing but uncontaminated great bliss regardless of what appears to us to be happening to him.

So, for those who regard him as a Buddha, understand that when people use the term 'monster' or 'evil dalie' or 'criminal', they are (ideally) out of compassion relating to the conventional appearances and calling it for what we all commonly understand to be criminal behavior that is not fitting for a Buddhist teacher. When I say he is not a valid teacher, it is because according to the conventional criteria of both common society and especially Buddhist society, he has disqualified himself. From the point of view of the 'aspect' being shown, he has shown the aspect of disqualification. If you disagree, it necessarily follows that you believe (one example is enough) a person who has abandoned their Gurus and disparaged their lineage is qualified to transmit the blessings of that very lineage. If you believe that, it also follows that you believe the qualifications of a teacher explained in the Lamrim and Tantras are not true or valid. Remember, we are talking about the 'aspect' being shown. Your pure view is a personal internal view, and keeping it is admirable, but it also makes you believe that he is still qualified. The problem there is yes, from the point of view of internally being a Buddha, of course a Buddha is qualified, but we are not talking about the internal qualifications of a Buddha, we are talking about the external behavior of the aspect that contradicts all the things that would qualify him as a valid teacher.

Since he is not qualified to represent the Three Precious Jewels either from the point of view of a person who has compassion for him as a sentient being, or the point of view of someone who sees him as a Buddha but whose aspect contradicts the required behavior of teachers, he should be removed from his position as a spiritual leader, and he should be held accountable for his actions regarding the ban and other atrocities.