Author Topic: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is  (Read 49996 times)

Ensapa

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2010, 04:05:12 AM »
What hate?

i can comprehend how you can brand someone to be a hungry ghost and not hate them. lets stop the hypocrisy

i'm starting to feel that many Shudgen practitioners are starting to get twisted and warped...what is wrong with just practicing Shudgen and not criticizing anyone no matter what they do while doing that?

so if DL banned Shudgen, why not prove him wrong by behaving ourselves? Thats a smarter idea rather than behaving like people consumed with hate?

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2010, 12:09:03 PM »
so if DL banned Shudgen, why not prove him wrong by behaving ourselves? Thats a smarter idea rather than behaving like people consumed with hate?

I would say that DS-practitioners do behave themselves incredibly well.

But sadly, merely being silent is not always the good option. There is the old saying that "for the evil to triumph, all it takes is that the good men do nothing". I'm not saying that this or that is evil, but just making a point. If religious traditions are banned by politicians or dictators, while the supporters of those politicians and dicrators roam around oppressing and ostracizing people, then the good men must speak up. The most worrisome aspect of all this is not that some DS-practitioners go over the top in their speech, but that almost all non-DS-practitioners remain silent and let the ban with all the ostracism happen while they look elsewhere.

In totalitarian regimes people usually look elsewhere. There is the German saying that "when they came for the Jews, we were silent; when they came for the gypsies, we were silent; when they came for the homosexuals, we were silent; and now that they come to us Christians, who is left there to speak for us?" In Communist regimes the game was, and is, just the same. People are too afraid to speak up, and prefer to look elsewhere. The Tibetan society, and the Tibetan Buddhist social sphere, seem to be similar totalitarian regimes. Nobody speaks up. Everybody looks elsewhere, and hope that 'if only they wouldn't come to get me today'.

But please do remember, that when faced with injustice, if you remain silent you are enabling the injustice to happen; you are then part of the problem, part of the social mechanics of oppression and ostracism. If somebody is throwing a stone, and you just look elsewhere, without even trying to stop the thrower, you are then in cahoots with the stone-thrower, throwing the stone with him. One has to really wonder why the Tibetans, especially the so-called High Lamas, remain silent. Why they do not openly declare what is Dharma, and what is not? Why doesn't the Dalai Lama say to his Dalai-Jugend that stoning monks is against the Dharma? Why didn't the Tai Situpa tell his followers that stone-throwing is not part of following the Karma Kagyu? Well, the answer to that is simply that the Tibetan society is a totalitarian regime. It is not built upon Buddhism, but upon violence and oppression.

Lineageholder

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2010, 08:51:48 PM »
There is the old saying that "for the evil to triumph, all it takes is that the good men do nothing".

Perfect! I completely agree.

This completely encapsulates what we are doing, and why.  We cannot do nothing, for Mara will triumph (take that as you will).

vajralight

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2010, 11:25:27 AM »
Quote:
i can comprehend how you can brand someone to be a hungry ghost and not hate them. lets stop the hypocrisy

i'm starting to feel that many Shudgen practitioners are starting to get twisted and warped...what is wrong with just practicing Shudgen and not criticizing anyone no matter what they do while doing that?

so if DL banned Shudgen, why not prove him wrong by behaving ourselves? Thats a smarter idea rather than behaving like people consumed with hate?


If you cannot see how someone can be seen as a hungry ghost and still be loved I feel sorry for your practice. Since hungry ghosts are our kind mothers we do need to remember their kindness to us in pas lives and also cherish them. This cherishing also means that if we thing they are wrong, leading people astray, we can say so with a good motivation. This in order to protect others and in order to protect them from the negative consequences of their actions. (DL stop lying !  he he he :) ) You seem to be convinced that Dorje Shugden practitioners who criticize the DL cannot have compassion for him, you are wrong. Anyway I wont be able to convince you , and it is not my wish, I'm just explaining my position. If you don't believe me that is your freedom.

Vajra

DharmaDefender

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2010, 03:09:31 PM »
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Well I doubt many people outside of the Tibetan communities would've heard of the practice had the Dalai Lama not created such a discordant image of a monk suppressing religious activities?

Is that also how to make Tara, Manjushri, and Avalokiteshvara popular? If so, why not ban them for the same 'reason'?!

Tara, Manjushri, Avalokiteshvara were already popular and known outside of Tibet before the Tibetans lost their country.

Tara came from India so she was already known outside of Tibet. Manjushri and Avalokiteshvara are both very popular throughout Asia, with Manjushri's seat being in Wu Tai Shan (China) and Avalokiteshvara being very popular with, for example, many old Chinese grannies as peaceful Kuan Yin :P those deities you named all had followings outside of Tibet prior to Tibetans losing their country.

Besides, it depends on the deity and time, doesn't it? For example, Vajrayogini's blessings will become more powerful during the Kaliyuga. Likewise perhaps controversy is what's needed for Dorje Shugden's practice to spread.

emptymountains

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2010, 04:10:13 PM »
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Likewise perhaps controversy is what's needed for Dorje Shugden's practice to spread.

Then, isn't the WSS being helpful in keeping the controversy alive? According to your logic, China will want to promote the Dorje Shugden practice more if they perceive it helps to diminish the influence of the Dalai Lama. Maybe the WSS's book is actually part of this 'bigger picture' you guys keep pushing.

Vajraprotector

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2010, 05:35:06 PM »
Quote
Likewise perhaps controversy is what's needed for Dorje Shugden's practice to spread.

Then, isn't the WSS being helpful in keeping the controversy alive? According to your logic, China will want to promote the Dorje Shugden practice more if they perceive it helps to diminish the influence of the Dalai Lama. Maybe the WSS's book is actually part of this 'bigger picture' you guys keep pushing.

I want to think that keeping the controversy alive is good - so that more people will get to know Dorje Shugden, but NOT in the way that defame Dalai Lama, calling him a fake, and holding no strong arguments against his ban but to expose his faults and open secrets and his wish to gain power.

emptymountains

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2010, 10:48:40 PM »
Yet, the Dalai Lama calls Dorje Shugden (and his followers) a fake, has no strong arguments against the practice (and doesn't entertain counterarguments against him), and calls Dorje Shugden (and his followers) sectarians who wish to gain power.

Isn't that how the Dalai Lama is keeping the controversy alive from his side?

DharmaDefender

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2010, 06:15:50 PM »
Quote
Likewise perhaps controversy is what's needed for Dorje Shugden's practice to spread.

Then, isn't the WSS being helpful in keeping the controversy alive? According to your logic, China will want to promote the Dorje Shugden practice more if they perceive it helps to diminish the influence of the Dalai Lama. Maybe the WSS's book is actually part of this 'bigger picture' you guys keep pushing.

By my logic, yes that would happen and you know what? I hope it does. As a country that's so rapidly developing, I hope that China does spread Dorje Shugden's practice so that the minds of their people are protected. That's a sixth of the world's population who have potential exposure to Dorje Shugden's holy mantra...why wouldn't I want for that to happen??

Perhaps the WSS book IS part of this bigger picture. However, it does nothing to educate people about Dorje Shugden. In fact, it's more likely that the Chinese govt will use it as political ammunition, but choose not to spread the practice (claiming they're Communist and therefore aethist).

After all, they've been known to apply different policies to the same issue (e.g. aethist but quite happy to help pick the Panchen Lama; not happy about outside interference into their internal affairs, but quite happy to interfere in other countries)

emptymountains

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2010, 01:46:32 AM »
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However, it does nothing to educate people about Dorje Shugden.


That is not its purpose. This book simply shows that the DL has neither the ecclesiastical nor moral authority to ban Dorje Shugden practice. It's really quite simple: monks and nuns should not hold political office.

Besides, what you're looking for in that respect is already available:

(a) Heart Jewel by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso,
(b) Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors by Trijang Rinpoche, and
(c) http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org by Trinlay Kalsang

Ensapa

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2010, 06:00:41 AM »
Yet, the Dalai Lama calls Dorje Shugden (and his followers) a fake, has no strong arguments against the practice (and doesn't entertain counterarguments against him), and calls Dorje Shugden (and his followers) sectarians who wish to gain power.

Isn't that how the Dalai Lama is keeping the controversy alive from his side?

do you have an exact quote? This quote is completely new to me. DL only said do not practice and nothing much re this issue and as we all know statements on websites or whatnot may not be DL's personal statements and is added there by his assistants etc who may do so with their own agendas.

Lineageholder

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #56 on: February 09, 2010, 11:00:01 AM »
do you have an exact quote? This quote is completely new to me. DL only said do not practice and nothing much re this issue and as we all know statements on websites or whatnot may not be DL's personal statements and is added there by his assistants etc who may do so with their own agendas.

The Dalai Lama is expert at getting people to do his dirty work for him so he can maintain his reputation as the peace loving 'simple monk' and Nobel Prize Laureate.  It's all a sham, he's waging war through others.

You can tell yourself that the 'wanted' posters in Dharamsala inciting violence towards Shugden practitioners have nothing to do with the Dalai Lama and that he doesn't know about them.  'I think rumour', as he said when directly confronted with these revelations by a Swiss reporter many years ago.  The Dalai Lama had the arrogance to deny what the reporter had seen with his own eyes. 

You can tell yourself he had nothing do with government reforms to stop Shugden practitioners from holding office, you can tell yourself that he had nothing to do with ostracising Shugden practitioners so that they cannot enter certain shops, travel, talk to their families or get medical treatment.

None of these things have anything to do with the Dalai Lama, even though they are happening under his nose and he's the head of the Tibetan Government in Exile.  He doesn't know about them, right?  He's surrounded by corrupt ministers with their own agendas?

The truth is nothing happens without his agreement and no one ever goes against his decisions if they want to remain loyal Tibetans and not be accused of being Chinese spies. The Dalai Lama maintains a suitable detachment so that he can claim he doesn't know things, so that he can't be held responsible.  His ministers try to keep him off the front line but make no mistake that every negative word said against Shugden practitioners on any website on the internet has his wishes at their root.  He makes the bullets and others fire them.  All the negative perceptions go back to the 1997 Newsweek article where the Dalai Lama and Thurman planted the seeds that reliance on Shugden was a cult.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 11:09:52 AM by Lineageholder »

emptymountains

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2010, 11:26:26 AM »
1a) The Dalai Lama calls Dorje Shugden a fake (i.e., a false reincarnation):

Quote
Then, because of Ahgyal’s skilful manipulation Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen came to be known as the reincarnation of Gelek Palsang. However, this text states that he was indeed a mistaken and false reincarnation. When the text says “he was successful” it means that even though he was the false reincarnation, he succeeded in maintaining his position as the real incarnation.

http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/speeches-by-his-holiness/dharamsala-teaching


1b) The Dalai Lama calls Dorje Shugden practitioners fake (i.e., no longer Buddhists):

Quote
A second point is that any clamping down on the worship of Dholgyal does not amount to any form of restriction of freedom to practise Buddha-Dharma. What we are talking about here is the propitiation of a spirit. It is a misuse of the term "Buddha-Dharma" to refer to such a thing in this way. Even if we were to take a very liberal interpretation of the term "Dharma', and include such things as propitiation of spirits and nagas, this still would not qualify. Even in those terms, this tradition is a perverse one.

This is not an authentic tradition, but a mistaken one. It is leading people astray. As Buddhists, who take ultimate refuge in the three jewels, we are not permitted to take refuge in worldly deities. If one were to decide to enlist the help of a worldly spirit - that is to say, to get such a spirit to assist us on a temporal level, to succeed in short-term affairs - then the spirit that is called upon should be an approved one. It should be one that was brought into service by a realised being who has gone through the process of ordering and assigning. It should certainly not be one that is so controversial and has come to prominence through intimidation. This is not an immoral practice. If one reflects on all of these things, one will come to see that what we have here is not a question of freedom to practise Buddha-Dharma.

http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/speeches-by-his-holiness/gelug-conference


2a) The Dalai Lama has no strong arguments against the practice (and doesn't entertain counterarguments against him). Instead, all you get is emotional blackmail:

Quote
One of the first public manifestations of the Dalai Lama’s state of mind was his refusal, after the Tibetan New Year of 1976, of the long life offerings made by the Tibetan government. Traditionally, the Dalai Lama accepts such an offering after the New Year as a sign of the pure bond (dam tshig tshang ma) that exists between him and Tibetans: this bond is based on his commitment to continue his work as Dalai Lama and the Tibetans’ allegiance. His refusal signaled in effect that he thought that the bond had been undermined and that the behavior of Tibetans was incompatible with his remaining as Dalai Lama. When pressed by the National Assembly to accept the offerings, the Dalai Lama sent back even stronger signals, mentioning dreams in which dakinis had entreated him to return to the pure realms. The refusal of the offerings of long life was already bad enough. The mention of these dreams was akin to a declaration of intention to abandon this world and his role therein. This sent the Tibetan community into a veritable ritual frenzy.

http://vajrayogini.com/option,com_docman/task,doc_view/gid,159/Itemid,48/[/url]


2b) And this emotional blackmail continues to the present day... The emboldened part is for those who still believe in the "bigger picture":

Quote
I am determined to implement the conclusions of my careful research and will not let it be. In the great monastic universities - Drepung, Sera and Ganden, the majority are faultless. However, it is clear that a tiny number among them are stubborn. Even private individuals may later have cause for regret if you take this lightly now in the hope that perhaps things will turn out all right after all.... You should not think that dangers to my life come only from someone armed with a knife, a gun, or a bomb. Such an event is extremely unlikely. But dangers to my life may arise if my advice is constantly spurned, causing me to feel discouraged and to see no further purpose in living.

http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/kashags-statement


Quote
It is good that paying attention to my health you have passed a resolution regarding this matter. Danger to health does not exclusively mean an armed attack. This type is extremely rare in Tibetan society. If there is continued indifference to my injunctions, then there would not be any point in my continuing to live silently as a disappointed man. This would be a more apt interpretation. (Quoted in Prisoners of Shangri-La, p. 192)


3a) The Dalai Lama calls Dorje Shugden sectarian:

Quote
Historical investigation reveals that Dolgyal practice, which has strong sectarian overtones, has a history of contributing to a climate of sectarian disharmony in various parts of Tibet, and between various Tibetan communities....

Given the acknowledged link between Dolgyal worship and sectarianism, this particular practice remains a fundamental obstacle to fostering a genuine non-sectarian spirit within the Tibetan Buddhist tradition.

http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/his-holiness-advice


3b) The Dalai Lama calls Dorje Shugden practitioners sectarian:

Quote
Whoever fights against the Shugden spirit defends religious freedom. I compare this definitely to the Nazis in Germany. Whoever fights them, defends human rights, since the freedom of Nazis is not freedom.

http://www.dharmaprotector.org/middle-way.html

Ensapa

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2010, 09:13:15 AM »
do you have an exact quote? This quote is completely new to me. DL only said do not practice and nothing much re this issue and as we all know statements on websites or whatnot may not be DL's personal statements and is added there by his assistants etc who may do so with their own agendas.

The Dalai Lama is expert at getting people to do his dirty work for him so he can maintain his reputation as the peace loving 'simple monk' and Nobel Prize Laureate.  It's all a sham, he's waging war through others.

You can tell yourself that the 'wanted' posters in Dharamsala inciting violence towards Shugden practitioners have nothing to do with the Dalai Lama and that he doesn't know about them.  'I think rumour', as he said when directly confronted with these revelations by a Swiss reporter many years ago.  The Dalai Lama had the arrogance to deny what the reporter had seen with his own eyes. 

You can tell yourself he had nothing do with government reforms to stop Shugden practitioners from holding office, you can tell yourself that he had nothing to do with ostracising Shugden practitioners so that they cannot enter certain shops, travel, talk to their families or get medical treatment.

None of these things have anything to do with the Dalai Lama, even though they are happening under his nose and he's the head of the Tibetan Government in Exile.  He doesn't know about them, right?  He's surrounded by corrupt ministers with their own agendas?

The truth is nothing happens without his agreement and no one ever goes against his decisions if they want to remain loyal Tibetans and not be accused of being Chinese spies. The Dalai Lama maintains a suitable detachment so that he can claim he doesn't know things, so that he can't be held responsible.  His ministers try to keep him off the front line but make no mistake that every negative word said against Shugden practitioners on any website on the internet has his wishes at their root.  He makes the bullets and others fire them.  All the negative perceptions go back to the 1997 Newsweek article where the Dalai Lama and Thurman planted the seeds that reliance on Shugden was a cult.

well if DL was directly involved and other than promoting awareness of such events that took place, i dont feel that its going to shake off the horrible accusations done against Shudgen practitioners. If we fight violently its just going to look like we're exactly as they say.

There's a reason why Shudgen practitioners's society in Dharamsala isnt trying to blow up DL, TGIE and other anti Shudgen things: its because they know it will not help.

the way emptymountains list the facts is a lot more interesting and helpful to help resolve this issue long term.

Lineageholder

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Re: Questions to Ponder re His Holiness the Dalai Lama - who he really is
« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2010, 09:49:48 AM »
well if DL was directly involved and other than promoting awareness of such events that took place, i dont feel that its going to shake off the horrible accusations done against Shudgen practitioners. If we fight violently its just going to look like we're exactly as they say.

There's a reason why Shudgen practitioners's society in Dharamsala isnt trying to blow up DL, TGIE and other anti Shudgen things: its because they know it will not help.

the way emptymountains list the facts is a lot more interesting and helpful to help resolve this issue long term.

I agree that emptymountain's quotes are more helpful, definitely, but you've gone to an extreme.  No one wants to blow up the Dalai Lama because such an action would be against our refuge commitments and also we don't hate the Dalai Lama.  No Shugden practitioner would want to do this.  I feel sorry that the Dalai Lama has 'lost it' but let's not allow that to blind us to how damaging and hypocritical his actions are.

Why you equate my strong speech with blowing up the Dalai Lama is beyond me!  It seems, as crazy cloud said in another thread, you are unable to distinguish between strong speech and hatred.  All I'm doing is trying to show you the facts about the Dalai Lama, what he's really like. 

All I'm offering is the truth, a truth without fighting or violence.